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TherianTheorist
2020-03-31, 11:25 PM
Pretty much the thread title.

I usually make characters because there's some quality about them I want to explore, but I've noticed most undergo a severe change between the initial profile writing and the actual play. So I wanted to ask if anyone else had this kind of experience?

denthor
2020-03-31, 11:33 PM
Every last one of them.

Wanted an ice mage 20% of the spells were necromancy. 1 snowball spell and an ice sphere.

Wanted a net, whip 2nd rank fighter. Ended 6th fighter 4th thief 4th mage. Front line.

Wanted a cleric/thief. Ended up with the class,but more healer. Put church over party betrayal of party to church led to an extremely wealthy party. We kept finding forbidden things and selling them.

If you build your character in the moment many of these power game issues end.

Start 1st level getting 5 ranks of this or that to qualify for the class just is really not productive enough at the time.

Lvl45DM!
2020-04-01, 12:52 AM
Not all of them, but a few.

I played a xenoalchemist, a homebrew class thats all about cutting bits off monsters and grafting them too you. I made a monk2/XA 5 and planned to have ALL of the natural attacks. Basically i wanted to be a super creepy monster PC.
I ended up playing a holy warrior cursed to become a monster, holding the curse at bay, and flying around hitting guys with smites and being the moral centre of a deeply messed up party.

I wanted to play a classy halfling mage, noble and friendly if a bit of a coward focused on buffing party members. I ended up playing a power-hungry lunatic who polymorphed into monsters and charged into combat.

I wanted to play a gnome cleric that focused on darkness and trickery and healing and alchemy. I became the main blaster of the group, we fought so many undead and demons and i made 1 potion my entire career lvl 1-14

Wraith
2020-04-01, 05:52 AM
Played a Cat Burglar in Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play. I thought I was going to be the group's Jack of All Trades since we already had the traditional Face/Melee/Ranged/Healer combination and I would just pick up everything else that needed doing under the guise of pretending not to be a career criminal.

Instead, I ended up the party 'Leader' and primary combatant, since I was a) the only human in a campaign set in the Empire, b) had rolled slightly above average in my social skills and c) was the only one who carried a shield and therefore could 'tank' without using up our entire stock of medicine after every fight.

I then got bitten by a werewolf and (legitimately) failed the roll to prevent myself from contracting lycanthropy, which meant that later on I became the group's secret weapon to unleash on monsters that couldn't be dealt with through normal means. That only happened once, but it only NEEDED to happen once and I single-handedly tore the spine out of a Vampire that was about to TPK us. Sufficed to say, I went from 5th Wheel to 'winning' that campaign. :smalltongue:

Lord Torath
2020-04-01, 08:10 AM
I had a psionicist focused on Telepathy that I intended to be used to avoid ambushes and interrogate captives. Ended up taking Kinetic Control, and becoming a tank/striker.

Zelphas
2020-04-01, 08:37 AM
I started out as a goofy water-controller with a slight addiction to melting and absorbing small chunks of the city that she worked in, intended to be more comic relief in a generally lighthearted superhero campaign.

I ended up playing a Hulk-analogue with some serious alienation issues due to the realization that she had no true human form anymore, working to keep her team together in an increasingly serious superhero campaign with monsters, betrayal, and a surprising amount of court proceedings.

It's to date the best game I've ever been a part of.

MarkVIIIMarc
2020-04-01, 09:08 AM
5e, we rolled stats in line. 4D6 drop the lowest. What you roll 1st goes to the top stat on the page.

My collection of 5 odd numbers wen't bad but Dex and Cha were my only good scores. We even rolled height and weight and I scored short lol. I went Wood Elf Lore Bard thinking I'd be 1/2 ranger 1/2 buffer woodsy elf.

Nope. Apparently my Bard is a glass cannon caster that either ROCKS or gets rocked in combat and has a vengeful streak.

Coventry
2020-04-01, 09:59 AM
Pretty much the thread title.

I usually make characters because there's some quality about them I want to explore, but I've noticed most undergo a severe change between the initial profile writing and the actual play. So I wanted to ask if anyone else had this kind of experience?

Oh, yeah. Look up "What I made What the dm saw What I played" on your favorite search engine. There was a really cool forum thread here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?226948-What-I-Made-What-the-GM-Saw-What-I-Played), but a lot of the image hosting site changes has demolished the images that were once attached to those posts.

I'll specifically point out one of DigoDragon's contributions (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=12447691&postcount=20) in that thread as a perfect representation of the exact thing you are describing.

DigoDragon
2020-04-01, 12:25 PM
Oh wow, memories of that thread. Heh, good times!

Aye, most of my characters change a bit from my initial concept. A good recent example is my tabaxi bard. Initially she was to be an energetic team cheerleader type, but after several sessions she has been the logical voice of reason (The Spock) to pair up with the party's tiefling warlock (The McCoy) and the dragonborn fighter (The Kirk). The three of us have some of the best chemistry when we are faced with a moral decision.

Telok
2020-04-01, 05:44 PM
Most of my characters have reasonably set personalities going into a game and our group doesn't do enough personal drama to really change that. What does tend to happen is that I occasionally end up not playing to the expected archetype of a class (it's always in level & class based games too) and running across interesting or frustrating issues.

Recently it was in StarFinder, a mechanic who didn't know any engineering or computers and had a robot to do that for him while he hit things with a big stick. Didn't work. The system auto-scales NPC numbers and skill DCs by level, the character classes are designed to have a specific maxxed primary stat and class bonuses to keep up with them. Needless to say you couldn't get the mechanic's robot to meet that mark. Plus he kept getting clobbered in melee because the system is dependent on level limited gear for character combat effectiveness and you can't give the robot armour for some reason, even if it's human sized and shaped.

Spending half the time without the primary class feature (robot pet) and then rebuilding it from scrap (on a character who doesn't know a spanner from a welder) was annoying. It was reflected in the character as a growing... willingness to seek TPK. It didn't work, they got encounter building right if you follow all the guidelines, making losing fights rare and difficult.

The system also goes quite far in making your character's species/race not matter. So the playable robot race (not real robots, too many immunities, but you get all the weaknesses), the 1.5 ton space walrus, and the [armless nose thing on a wheel] race all play pretty much the same if they're the same class with the same stats (there is an extremely 'balanced' equality to stat allocation so nobody should be more than +/- 1 from archetype normals) and class options.

So weirdly mechanically leaning into the archetypes like you're supposed to can create some really silly race/class combos where the 1.5 ton walrus is a 80+ foot land speed, ninja acrobat, dex-whore (and good looking to boot!), while a species/race noted for it's speed and agility is basically human-normal with a +2 on the d20 simply because of what the classes push you to.

TherianTheorist
2020-04-02, 12:42 AM
I wasn't expecting this to get as much attention as it did. Wasn't aware of the "What I made What the dm saw What I played" meme, or really how to describe it at all, even when I was sure this was something other people experienced, search engines didn't help.

I guess I should add my own example. But it's past midnight, and I'm on a phone keyboard, so I'll return in the morning to edit one into place.

Quertus
2020-04-02, 05:49 PM
1) it feels like the most replies are talking about how the character's role differed from what they expected it to be. 1a) is this a fair assessment; 1b) what subset of role / balance / mechanics / personality / etc is this thread intended to be about / open to discussing?

2) I've never quite understood the "what I made…" meme. Can someone please carefully explain it as though to a 5-year-old? and one with reading comprehension issues, at that

Once I know the answers to these questions, I may be able to give relevant examples; until then, I'll just say that I have to "roll a 20" to produce a character worth playing, so… most of my characters probably qualify.

Coventry
2020-04-02, 07:55 PM
2) I've never quite understood the "what I made…" meme. Can someone please carefully explain it as though to a 5-year-old?

When a campaign starts, what typically happens is that:

The player comes up with a character concept, and builds that character according to the rules of the game
The player presents that character to the DM for review
The game starts, and the player actually starts playing the character


Those three correspond to "what I made", "what the DM saw", and "what I played". As an example:

A player decides he wants to build a very competent doctor, who is also jerk. The only reason anyone puts up with that doctor at all is because he is extremely good at his job and people need him. The player is picturing someone like Dr. Gregory House from the television series House M.D., and builds something close to that before the campaign starts. ("What I Made")

When the player hands the character sheet to the DM, the DM can tell that the character has a lot of medical skills, and should be a reasonably competent doctor. However, the DM knows the player, and believes the player will be making jokes and pulling pranks. So, the DM thinks this character will be like Benjamin Franklin "Hawkeye" Pierce from the television series M*A*S*H. ("What the DM Saw").

The first two are two different interpretations of identical characters stats. The humor there is in recognizing that there are two points of view and that in many cases that both points of view are reasonable.

Then the campaign starts, and the character turns out to be an absolute mess. He might be competent on occasion, but because his services are not really needed, the only way for the player to have any fun playing the character is by being crazy, foolish, and the butt of all of the campaign jokes. The closest match to that is Doctor Zoidberg from the television series Futurama. ("What I Played")

This continues the wry observation that the player's original concept did not match the reality of the game, nor did the DM's initial concept.

The fact is that this happens to a lot of characters.

There are counter-examples, where either the player's initial concept was how the character played, where the DM's belief about how the character would be played turned out to be true, or where the player and DM both imagined the same character. This shows that not every character design gets derailed as much ... which makes the ones where the design does get derailed funny.

Referring back to the image I linked (where Digo had posted in the previous thread), the player in question planned and tried to build an action hero vampire like Wesley Snipes's role as Blade. Blade was a serious and badass warrior. The DM (probably knowing the player) saw the same statistics and figured that there would be a lot more humor involved ... he saw Grandpa Munster instead of Blade. When the character was actually played, the reality was that the humor was even stronger than the DM expected ... it was the level of Leslie Neilson's portrayal of Dracula in Dracula Dead and Loving it.

Blade would never slam into a closed window. Grandpa Munster would never step on Renfield. Dracula was non-stop slapstick. And in the end, the DM's original concept of what the character would be like was far closer to reality than the player's original concept.

Life is funny that way.

denthor
2020-04-02, 11:30 PM
1) it feels like the most replies are talking about how the character's role differed from what they expected it to be. 1a) is this a fair assessment; 1b) what subset of role / balance / mechanics / personality / etc is this thread intended to be about / open to discussing?

2) I've never quite understood the "what I made…" meme. Can someone please carefully explain it as though to a 5-year-old? and one with reading comprehension issues, at that

Once I know the answers to these questions, I may be able to give relevant examples; until then, I'll just say that I have to "roll a 20" to produce a character worth playing, so… most of my characters probably qualify.

What the original poster asked has even happened in the Order of the Stick.

Miko the paladin was not going to be a nasty cold, mean itch with a b. This is in the comments that Rich put in the book. When he wrote the character every line came on meaner then he expected. After a while he just decided this was the character. He said in the comments this how you should not play a paladin.

I know with my mage her spells just kept piling up into necromancy. She had hold person this was the only spell from that school she had. Never casted this spell in 8 levels of having the spell. I want an evocation mage but hated all the spells. Wanted to have cold spells came out cold necromancy.

Choices make a character your first thought is I want to do this at 1st level specialty in this by 5th. Then you realize taking 5 ranks in this 3 ranks in that does not work in the heat of the campaign. You react to the words a personality comes out.

My 1/2 mage was a get it done, throw gold at it. An example 2 silver per day for a rowers (tough but doable pay upon completion) I need 31 rowers for a month time. She paid a gold a day(hurricane season) and upfront. Providing free healing spells and it sickened her, but she treated 4 Hobgoblins the same as the others.

Gave the captain a +1 short sword and +1 leather armor. The party gave him the orc ship.

She was not well liked in the party or in the game world.

TherianTheorist
2020-04-03, 12:30 AM
So, I think I'll go with one of my most severe cases, my first time playing Werewolf: the Forsaken.

https://i.imgur.com/io3ayWx.png

Started with a just-about-to-change wolfblooded, built to be a social face, with a side of occult lore from his past. The ST saw the interest in spirits and rites, and thought I was going to be building up towards an Ithaeur with a heavy mystic bent. And then actual play shaped my character into a sneaky Irraka who started studying tactics and throwing around nature gifts.

Most of the development came from how his social abilities weren't as helpful as planned early on, which pushed him to do more stealth to avoid confrontations. And by the end, they felt almost like a completely different character.

Jay R
2020-04-03, 12:52 PM
Of course. My 2e outcast elven Thief, who had no use for anybody else, eventually became an Earl, focused on helping the people. For the latter half of the game, one of my goals was to keep his actions nobler and more honorable than the Paladin's. He also began having been raised in an area with no other elves, and knew nothing of elven culture. When he eventually met elves, he set out to learn Elven, learn what elves were like, and changed his name from Treewalker to Ornrandir.

My royal prince Pteppic who cared nothing for commoners is now trying to save his retinue from dervishes.

My first Paladin had his alignment changed, killed the rest of the party, eventually got his alignment back, and spent many sessions atoning for his past.

What's the point of the adventures if they don't affect the character?

Velaryon
2020-04-03, 01:36 PM
I'm gonna jump on the "take my post from the What I Made, What the DM Saw, What I Played thread and explain it" train here.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q25/JinnTolser/Sinclair.jpg

This one was for a d20 Steampunk game set in an alternate version of the 1920's/1930's loosely inspired by the film Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow. My character was intended as a butler/assistant to one of the other players (a mad scientist type) who had a background as a secret agent/super spy. I pictured a sort of "James Bond goes into retirement but still can kick but if he needs to, and keep this wacky professor from harming himself or the world in the meantime" kind of thing.

The scientist character belonged to the player who was really most excited for this game. He had drawn up not only a full character portrait, a multilevel floor plan for the airship he hoped for his character to build and everything, all as part of the initial pitch for us to play this game. The character also had lots of crazy gadgets and weapons that he built, so we all saw him as basically the main character who would be the leader, with my character as his butler who would mostly be in the background but occasionally able to break out some moments of badass.

What actually happened is that my character ended up super-competent and his employer depended on him to pretty much solve all the problems. My character ended up way more of a combat badass than expected because he ended up with a crazy powerful sword that belonged to an ancient god or something, on top of being the party skillmonkey.

Quertus
2020-04-03, 06:08 PM
Wow, I love the Playground - so much virtual ink to help. Thanks!

So, "what I made" is… stats + intent. "What the GM saw" is expected intent <- (stats + knowledge:player). "What I played" is… reality > intent. Sound right?

I have no clue what my GMs saw most of the time - not just from lack of communication in that direction, but also because I usually do my best to avoid that step by not showing the GM my sheet in the first place. Although, sometimes, I still have that problem when a GM only knows me for one character, isn't aware of my range, and expects my new character to play just like my old character. Sigh. But disconnect between "how I intend the character to be" and "how he turns out in play"? Hmmm… yeah, that definitely happens, *especially* when I'm working on "psychology and role-playing stretch goals". Usually, though, when that happens, I discard the character (as they are not something I'll enjoy playing), and try again. Most of the characters I keep are either ones whose personalities line up with my expectations, or ones about whose personalities I have no real expectations ("what would it be like to play a compulsive liar", for example).

How far have characters I've kept deviated from my expectations? Well… K'Tamair am be fun. K'Tamair am be useful, grant life. Dumb, dead talls no understand K'Tamair. Dumb, dead talls not know how to pack. K'Tamair am be fixing their backpacks, making room for K'Tamair… and more food.

K'Tamair is a force multiplier, but… in most parties, that multiplier is less than one. He's a joke character, who IME only really works when I'm also running a (mechanically) serious character… or somewhat in the rare party where he's actually got a force multiplier > 1, at which point he's pretty ridiculous (like any good force multiplier, tbh - especially in a big party). Imagine a (very) small Thief who constantly "upgrades" the party's inventory, with Kender-level disregard for personal property laws.

In one group, he was really nothing but combat numbers. That… was definitely *not* what I built him for.

So, maybe not quite the same as the stories that others are telling, but does that count?

-----

As far as adventures changing characters… hmmm… this is harder to express than I expected.

On the one hand, I've had great experiences with being "not from around here", and letting the content of the adventure… not so much *define* what my character cares about, as… *instantiate* it, and enjoying how that particular instantiation plays out.

Rarely have I had GMs with the skill to pull off "character-defining moments" that weren't terribly contrived / ham-fisted. I'm struggling to remember a good, natural moment that really changed a character (darn senility?).

On the other hand, I've had plenty of bad experiences with the GM's content changing a character. For example, one of my PCs went from overconfident to believing (rightfully so) that it was (meta)physically impossible to actually successfully take any meaningful action without utilizing a McGuffin-class object. So, now, he constantly quests for and hoards McGuffins, and does not personally take any meaningful actions unless he has an appropriate McGuffin. Until the acquisition of a McGuffin corresponding to his intent, he just treats reality as a joke, and acts accordingly.

False God
2020-04-03, 09:14 PM
I think it goes without saying that when your "character concept" goes through the various filters of "the rules", "your roleplay skill" and "the dice" they are never quite what you intended them to be.

I mean, I made a "Generic Fighter #5" who I intended to just be a relaxing character but they rolled really poorly when it came to fightery stuff. But they rolled high any time they tried to do something roguey or clever (they had slightly below average mental stats and no points in those skills) or businessey. So they basically became Tulio (Road to El Dorado) and ended up being the party leader and established a successful "orphanage" business that apprenticed orphans into trade skills and turned them into valuable and productive members of society. They literally retired in the 4th session as their business became a booming success, protecting vulnerable children, reducing crime, and increasing the wealth of the local city, because I couldn't stop critting on my various business checks.

DM: Roll to persuade the blacksmith he should train those scrawny under-fed orphans.
Me looking at my -2 Cha, no points in diplomacy: *rolls* uh...20? So, 18?
DM: >.> The blacksmith thinks it's a great idea!

DM: Roll to hit the zombie!
Me looking at my +5 str, +3 longsword, and 10 levels of fighter: Uh...1.
Dm: >.> Are you trying to miss the zombie?
Me: Only a swordsman as skilled as I could be this good and still allow my companions to get in a few hits.
DM: Roll Bluff.
Me: ..... Uh, 20?
DM: >.> Even the zombie thinks you're trying to miss.

Draconi Redfir
2020-04-03, 10:51 PM
i made a character who was supposed to be a great military tactician who could lead an army against overwhelming odds and at least scrape by into victory.



i got a dude with anxiety and a magical trident being pushed into the role of "The tank" by the rest of the party. When it came time to actually lead, my own uncertainty and misunderstanding of the rules caused so many mistakes...