Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound?

[Citadel97501]

Hello all, for some reason I entirely missed this spell and I was wondering if anyone has worked on anything trying to put this spell to use? I was thinking it could be interesting with a blaster style build?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Hello all, for some reason I entirely missed this spell and I was wondering if anyone has worked on anything trying to put this spell to use? I was thinking it could be interesting with a blaster style build?




Faithful Hound

4th-level conjuration

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (a tiny silver whistle, a piece of bone, and a thread)
Duration: 8 hours

You conjure a phantom watchdog in an unoccupied space that you can see within range, where it remains for the duration, until you dismiss it as an action, or until you move more than 100 feet away from it.

The hound is invisible to all creatures except you and can’t be harmed. When a Small or larger creature comes within 30 feet of it without first speaking the password that you specify when you cast this spell, the hound starts barking loudly. The hound sees invisible creatures and can see into the Ethereal Plane. It ignores illusions.

At the start of each of your turns, the hound attempts to bite one creature within 5 feet of it that is hostile to you. The hound’s attack bonus is equal to your spellcasting ability modifier + your proficiency bonus. On a hit, it deals 4d8 piercing damage.




It's basically an upgraded Alarm and is rather limited, I wish you could use an action, could get some cool stuff from it.

It's good for catching invisible/ethereal enemies. It's also a good way to deny an area, like if the McGuffin or an NPC that is tied up needs to be protected... Or slap it where you are so creatures coming up to slap you start getting bit by an invisible bite.

I like it but it's niche and 4d8 piercing damage isn't really worth the 4th level slot. Alarm does well enough.

[MrStabby]

I like the spell but it competes with things that are just better. That said,if you have ways to control movement it can be Ok.

A few points:

1) It is concentration free. Use it with whatever other spells you want. Hold person for example to get critical hits.

2) It is invisible. Yes it means it is harder to avoid but also advantage on all attacks

3) DM dependant - allowing opportunity attacks can make this quite a bit better


I would say that you want to compare it with wall of fire that does similar damage for someone in place. WoF needs concentration but can hit more enemies and hit more when it comes down as well.

I think for this to be a viable spell you need to value all of it's features: long duration, hard to resist damage, benefits from forced movement, can see invisible, benefits from advantage, concentration free.

Generally I wouldn't pick the spell, but it isn't a total write-off.

[BurgerBeast]

Am I reading it right, though: it can’t move, and since it only attacks at the start of your turn, enemies can just walk past it and never get attacked as long as they end up 5 feet away?

[MrStabby]

Am I reading it right, though: it can’t move, and since it only attacks at the start of your turn, enemies can just walk past it and never get attacked as long as they end up 5 feet away?

Yeah, which is why checking if your DM rules it can make opportunity attacks is so important.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Yeah, which is why checking if your DM rules it can make opportunity attacks is so important.

Sadly, by raw I don't think it can.

This spell needs Homebrew to make it really worth taking for anything but fluff reasons.

I put it on my Noctis Cleric for fluff and it can be useful in some situation.

[Segev]

It's sad that the best offensive uses for it I can think of involve dropping it on top of people who're trapped in phantasmal forces, hold person, or Tasha's hideous laughter or the like. I suppose it's useful if you or a good friend are a grappler. But its whole goal is to alert people to the presence of enemies, so dealing damage is "incidental." Except that the damage is the only thing it has going for it over alarm. Not only is alarm lower-level, but it's also a ritual, so you don't have to spend spell slots on it.

[Guy Lombard-O]

It's sad that the best offensive uses for it I can think of involve dropping it on top of people who're trapped in phantasmal forces, hold person, or Tasha's hideous laughter or the like. I suppose it's useful if you or a good friend are a grappler. But its whole goal is to alert people to the presence of enemies, so dealing damage is "incidental." Except that the damage is the only thing it has going for it over alarm. Not only is alarm lower-level, but it's also a ritual, so you don't have to spend spell slots on it.

I could see it being useful if your mage is sleeping next to it, gets attacked in his sleep, wakes up and moves out of reach, then casts a small 5' radius forcewall around the Hound and attacker.

But yeah, very very niche and hard to justify keeping prepared.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

It's sad that the best offensive uses for it I can think of involve dropping it on top of people who're trapped in phantasmal forces, hold person, or Tasha's hideous laughter or the like. I suppose it's useful if you or a good friend are a grappler. But its whole goal is to alert people to the presence of enemies, so dealing damage is "incidental." Except that the damage is the only thing it has going for it over alarm. Not only is alarm lower-level, but it's also a ritual, so you don't have to spend spell slots on it.

Funny enough, Alarm works on tiny or larger creatures. Faithful Hound works on Small or Larger creatures...

Animal Messenger cheese technically beats faithful hound.

[Segev]

I could see it being useful if your mage is sleeping next to it, gets attacked in his sleep, wakes up and moves out of reach, then casts a small 5' radius forcewall around the Hound and attacker.

But yeah, very very niche and hard to justify keeping prepared.Well, it's fairly clearly meant for guarding camp at night. Protecting your Long Rest. So yes, it probably does lurk right next to you, or right outside your tent, and then bark to wake you if anybody gets too close. But "within 30 feet" is actually probably too small, because ranged attacks can come from further out, and most creatures have a 30 foot movement, so if you aren't lucky in your placement of the hound relative to your sleeping position, someone could run in using normal move->attack tactics and be on top of you before you've done anything. At which point it's actually questionable whether the Hound's warning matters, since barking loudly is clearly meant to make sure you're able to get up and do something, while the rules for somebody charging into combat against unaware foes are that the foes still roll initiative, but are Surprised until their turn comes up.

I guess the barking ensures you're at least not Unconscious when the attacker gets there? And if they charge whatever your hound is next to, it gets to bite them on your turn, at least.


Funny enough, Alarm works on tiny or larger creatures. Faithful Hound works on Small or Larger creatures...

Animal Messenger cheese technically beats faithful hound.

Alarm gets smaller creatures than Mordenkainen's faithful hound, but that also means that literally any creature sets it off, which can be problematic. There is nothing smaller than Tiny, and so technically a DM who wanted to be a jerk but within the RAW could say it goes off as soon as an ant crawls through.

It's basically useless in a forest or even a moderately-inhabited field or vermin-prone house, because a mouse will trip it. So you have to use alarm in basically clean rooms (e.g. vaults or very large tents, as warning that something has entered when you should be able to even keep out wildlife), or use it on portals (which incidental wildlife won't be able nor think to open, and thus won't trip).

Alarm also can't look into the Ethereal Plane, while Mordenkainen's faithful hound can. Good if you're being stalked by Night Hags. Mordenkainen's faithful hound is a "guard the camp" spell, and really the first you get. Leomund's tiny hut is better, though, since nothing can get in.

[loki_ragnarock]

*It requires no concentration.* It lasts 8 hours.

That opens some doors.

With a party with enough movement powers, in the right dungeon environment, it has some potential for creating a killing ground. There's nothing preventing you from bringing multiple of them into play at once. It even barks loudly to lure enemies in.


There's an angle. It's just an asymmetrical one.

[MrStabby]

Mold earth. A great thing to have at the bottom of a pit trap, I guess. Probably even giving disadvantage on attempts to see the trap as everyone is looking for that damn barking dog. A pack of these at the bottom of a pit will make short work of anything that can't fly out.

[Segev]

*It requires no concentration.* It lasts 8 hours.
That opens some doors.
With a party with enough movement powers, in the right dungeon environment, it has some potential for creating a killing ground. There's nothing preventing you from bringing multiple of them into play at once. It even barks loudly to lure enemies in.

There's an angle. It's just an asymmetrical one.
"Barks loudly" sounds like something I, as a DM, would use to justify keeping my monsters away. Certainly, players would avoid the square where the invisible dog is barking loudly if they could.

It "covers" - for damage purposes - a 3x3 set of squares. The hound itself is invisible, and is a "phantom watchdog" that "cannot be harmed." This sounds to me like it occupies its space, and isn't intangible, despite being indestructible. It lacks stats, so determining what its strength or AC or the like is is hard. The spell does say that you put it "in an unoccupied space that you can see within range, where it remains for the duration," [emphasis added] so if we combine a lack of sufficient mechanics to figure out how it interacts with forced movement mechanics with the underlined portion of the quote from the spell, we should probably take that as an absolute statement rather than as a statement of "normal behavior" that can be modified by external forces.

It can clearly move around a bit within the five foot square, since it can attack with a five foot reach (meaning it can hit people in any square adjacent to its own, and that means turning, moving to the edge, etc. to reach with its bite), so it can't be said to be an immovable object (so no Tenser's floating disk shenanigans with blocking doors), but it's indestructible and not intangible, so it can potentially hold up objects placed atop it, no matter their weight. In a pinch, huddling near it when the ceiling collapses (a super-corner-case scenario) might save you as it withstands the weight and holds up the panel that's fallen on it and over you.

As a creature on the battlefield, it blocks movement through its square to enemies and is difficult terrain to allies. Place it at a choke point and it could actively prevent people following you. Combine it with a major image and they may even stay and try to fight the indestructible dog that's dealing 4d8 piercing damage whenever it hits them. Especially if they need to get through it to get to you.

A minor illusion of the sound of another one barking could be made to move around, and potentially convince enemies that you have at least two invisible dogs and that they are, in fact, able to come after them. A phantasmal force of an invisible pack of hounds surrounding somebody and herding him towards Mordenkainen's faithful hound might be effective, and certainly, enemies will be less likely to think Bob is afflicted by a mental delusion when he yells about being attacked by invisible dogs if they hear invisible dogs.

Actually setting up a kill zone is a bit trickier, because a 3x3 "danger zone" that the enemy has to actually stop in (of which only the outer square is occupiable by them) is not very big, and even with terrain and choke points, arranging so they get to that section is hard.

Now, it could be very useful with Readied actions to Shove creatures Prone: they try to move past or through the area, and you take your Readied action. When they go Prone, their movement becomes 0, and they're stuck next to the hound. No damage yet, but next turn....

If you have Sentinel, you can ensure they can't get away, too, because now they'll provoke Opportunity Attacks if they try to move away from you, and if you hit with one, their movement becomes 0 again. That's if you don't Grapple them on your next turn to reduce their move to 0, anyway. (If you have Sentinel, you might not need to. But keeping them prone means the hound (and you) have Advantage on attacks against them, so there's incentive to go ahead and Grapple them before they can stand up.

The 8 hour duration is really only useful for long resting, because of the 100 ft. limitation: if the caster moves more than 100 ft. from it, it ends. So there's no setting it up as a fallback point; you cast it and then you're stuck on that particular battlefield, really. It might give you a couple of dungeon rooms you can move through and keep it as a fallback. It's great as a fallback in a hallway, again if you're concerned about 1-2 dungeon rooms ahead at most. Just, again, remember that it's difficult terrain for you and your allies, but blocked terrain for Small to Large creatures that are hostile to you.

All of this together still makes me think it's more a 3rd level spell than a 4th level one, though.


Mold earth. A great thing to have at the bottom of a pit trap, I guess. Probably even giving disadvantage on attempts to see the trap as everyone is looking for that damn barking dog. A pack of these at the bottom of a pit will make short work of anything that can't fly out.

Not bad, though that just makes it more difficult terrain to get out of. I mean, not technically, but climbing costs one extra foot of movement per foot of movement, just like difficult terrain. Jumping costs nothing, though, but it also is a standing jump to get out of a five-foot-deep pit, with no run-up, so it would take a +7 Strength mod (or 24 Strength) to jump out of it. So, yeah, 10 feet of movement to climb out of the pit. Can't really make all the surrounding squares difficult terrain, as mold earth only permits 2 manipulations like that at once, but you can fill one square next to it with the pile of excavated dirt for a "wall" and... yeah, you can do something with this to keep them next to the hound.

[MaxWilson]

Evard's Black Tentacles + Faithful Hound as a follow-up?

[Segev]

Evard's Black Tentacles + Faithful Hound as a follow-up?

Still not 100% sure of the 4th level spell slot being a good cost, but definitely one of the more effective options. Web and entangle (though the latter would take a second caster anyway, or a wand) would also work well for that.

A mention was made of a "pack" of these things. That's actually doable! But very expensive, spell-slot-wise. 4th level slots aren't cheap! (Unless you're a warlock...who don't get this spell.)

[MaxWilson]

Still not 100% sure of the 4th level spell slot being a good cost, but definitely one of the more effective options. Web and entangle (though the latter would take a second caster anyway, or a wand) would also work well for that.

A mention was made of a "pack" of these things. That's actually doable! But very expensive, spell-slot-wise. 4th level slots aren't cheap! (Unless you're a warlock...who don't get this spell.)

Rope Trick + Gate + Forcecage + Pack of Faithful Hounds = Infallible Assassination Special?

[Segev]

Rope Trick + Gate + Forcecage + Pack of Faithful Hounds = Infallible Assassination Special?

You could probably do it with just a wall of force over the exit from the rope trick's extradimentional space, if I'm parsing your intent correctly. There's not much room up there, so the victim would be adjacent to all the hounds you summoned.

But again, that's at least one 2nd-level spell, one 9th-level spell, a 6th- or 7th-level spell, and a "pack" of 4th-level spells. Anything you need that many spells on, at least one of which he can make a save against and others of which you need to be able to repeatedly overcome his AC for...probably can take it. Or has means of escaping of his own.

[MaxWilson]

You could probably do it with just a wall of force over the exit from the rope trick's extradimentional space, if I'm parsing your intent correctly. There's not much room up there, so the victim would be adjacent to all the hounds you summoned.

But again, that's at least one 2nd-level spell, one 9th-level spell, a 6th- or 7th-level spell, and a "pack" of 4th-level spells. Anything you need that many spells on, at least one of which he can make a save against and others of which you need to be able to repeatedly overcome his AC for...probably can take it. Or has means of escaping of his own.

Repeatedly overcoming AC isn't an issue--so many attacks (600 per hound before the Forcecage expires) it won't matter. So basically there's just the save, and you only get that if you can teleport.

Is it a great or unique combo? No, you can do similar things already with e.g. Cloudkill or Glyph of Warding. On the plus side though, Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound is free to cast and kills fairly quickly. It might actually be feasible to kill e.g. Demogorgon or even an archmage this way, just by Counterspelling every attempt to teleport away. (Spend your concentration on Fog Cloud to prevent counter-Counterspell.) Vs. five hounds the archmage should only last a few rounds, so your spell slots should hold out.

The sheer stackability of the spell, plus the long duration, are the most important things the spell has going for it. If you're not planning to cast four or five of them in one spot don't even bother learning this spell.

[Segev]

Repeatedly overcoming AC isn't an issue--so many attacks (600 per hound before the Forcecage expires) it won't matter. So basically there's just the save, and you only get that if you can teleport.

Is it a great or unique combo? No, you can do similar things already with e.g. Cloudkill or Glyph of Warding. On the plus side though, Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound is free to cast and kills fairly quickly. It might actually be feasible to kill e.g. Demogorgon or even an archmage this way, just by Counterspelling every attempt to teleport away. (Spend your concentration on Fog Cloud to prevent counter-Counterspell.) Vs. five hounds the archmage should only last a few rounds, so your spell slots should hold out.

The sheer stackability of the spell, plus the long duration, are the most important things the spell has going for it. If you're not planning to cast four or five of them in one spot don't even bother learning this spell.

By "free to cast," I assume you mean it doesn't require Concentration. How are you getting 5 4th level spell slots? Are you upcasting a bunch?

[Mr Adventurer]

If it is corporeal, doesn't move from its space, and can't be harmed, it's infinitely load-bearing.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Well, it's fairly clearly meant for guarding camp at night. Protecting your Long Rest. So yes, it probably does lurk right next to you, or right outside your tent, and then bark to wake you if anybody gets too close. But "within 30 feet" is actually probably too small, because ranged attacks can come from further out, and most creatures have a 30 foot movement, so if you aren't lucky in your placement of the hound relative to your sleeping position, someone could run in using normal move->attack tactics and be on top of you before you've done anything. At which point it's actually questionable whether the Hound's warning matters, since barking loudly is clearly meant to make sure you're able to get up and do something, while the rules for somebody charging into combat against unaware foes are that the foes still roll initiative, but are Surprised until their turn comes up.

I guess the barking ensures you're at least not Unconscious when the attacker gets there? And if they charge whatever your hound is next to, it gets to bite them on your turn, at least.



Alarm gets smaller creatures than Mordenkainen's faithful hound, but that also means that literally any creature sets it off, which can be problematic. There is nothing smaller than Tiny, and so technically a DM who wanted to be a jerk but within the RAW could say it goes off as soon as an ant crawls through.

It's basically useless in a forest or even a moderately-inhabited field or vermin-prone house, because a mouse will trip it. So you have to use alarm in basically clean rooms (e.g. vaults or very large tents, as warning that something has entered when you should be able to even keep out wildlife), or use it on portals (which incidental wildlife won't be able nor think to open, and thus won't trip).

Alarm also can't look into the Ethereal Plane, while Mordenkainen's faithful hound can. Good if you're being stalked by Night Hags. Mordenkainen's faithful hound is a "guard the camp" spell, and really the first you get. Leomund's tiny hut is better, though, since nothing can get in.

It's not problematic to NOT be bitten by snake, flying snakes, spiders, and sitrges.

[Segev]

It's not problematic to NOT be bitten by snake, flying snakes, spiders, and sitrges.

Sure, but if I were being a jerk of a DM (or just trying way too hard for verisimilitude), a campsite in Chult which had alarm set up would have said alarm trigger many times a night due to snakes (which aren't trying to bother anybody), lizards, almirajs, or even (because nothing is smaller than Tiny) flies, mosquitos, or tiny tree frogs.

[MaxWilson]

By "free to cast," I assume you mean it doesn't require Concentration. How are you getting 5 4th level spell slots? Are you upcasting a bunch?

I meant "free" in monetary terms. You can pull the exact same assassination trick with Glyph of Warding or Symbol, but it costs a bunch of material components.

Getting spell slots: could be anything. Upcasting, Arcane Recovery, multiple casters, whatever. A lone 20th level wizard not using spell points, and reserving a 7th level and 9th level slot for Gate + Forcecage, could theoretically cast 3 + 3 + 2 + 1 + 1 Mordenkainen's Faithful Hounds, and then take a short rest and cast 2 more for a total of 12, before doing his Forcecage + Gate combo. (He'd have three 3rd level slots left over with which to Counterspell.) Twelve is a much bigger number than four or five, so whether you want to spend that margin on doing it at a lower level or having more hounds or saving more spell slots for Teleport/Feeblemind/etc., whatever. Five hounds is clearly feasible and I don't care much which spell slots you use to get there.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Sure, but if I were being a jerk of a DM (or just trying way too hard for verisimilitude), a campsite in Chult which had alarm set up would have said alarm trigger many times a night due to snakes (which aren't trying to bother anybody), lizards, almirajs, or even (because nothing is smaller than Tiny) flies, mosquitos, or tiny tree frogs.

Yup, interrupting a long rest and causing your players to only get in a short rest, thus causing a drain on their resources, is totally a jerk DM move and there is no other reason for a DM to do so.

Bologna.

[Zhorn]

I like it but it's niche and 4d8 piercing damage isn't really worth the 4th level slot. Alarm does well enough.

It wouldn't be worth it for a single round, but with an 8 hour concentration free duration, a well positioned casting location has a lot of potential for multiple rounds.

I've been looking at this spell recently, and while I wouldn't waste one of my level-up spells on learning it, I'll be inquiring from other spell casters where I can get a copy.

Leomund's Tiny Hut with a few of these placed at the quadrants could be a pretty devastating long rest defense, or casting a them at a choke point or entrance to where the party is long resting.

If I do end up adding this to my character's spell book, It'll probably get used a lot in any instance where I have the spell slots to spare before a long rest.

[Segev]

Yup, interrupting a long rest and causing your players to only get in a short rest, thus causing a drain on their resources, is totally a jerk DM move and there is no other reason for a DM to do so.

Bologna.

Yup. Totally what I said. You can see me referring to interrupting long rests as being a thing only jerk DMs do. In fact, I quite specifically said that I would interrupt long rests.

Not, you know, that making a spell useless - worse, an active detriment to cast - is a jerk thing to do. No, no, that couldn’t possibly be what I said. You can tell because I referenced one specific spell and how it would be actively worse than useless if I behaved that way.

Because talking about how it would be a jerk move to do that with alarm is clearly only about interrupting long rests, and definitely referring to every possible way to interrupt long rests as a jerk DM move.

[HPisBS]

"Barks loudly" sounds like something I, as a DM, would use to justify keeping my monsters away. Certainly, players would avoid the square where the invisible dog is barking loudly if they could.

Seeing that, I'd then start making Magic Mouths of myself imitating that bark so that I'd get that "Stay away from here" effect permanently, and for lower slots, too. If nothing else, it could serve as a kind of soft zone control.

(I'd just have to cover up the mouth so the game isn't immediately given away.)

[Segev]

Seeing that, I'd then start making Magic Mouths of myself imitating that bark so that I'd get that "Stay away from here" effect permanently, and for lower slots, too. If nothing else, it could serve as a kind of soft zone control.

(I'd just have to cover up the mouth so the game isn't immediately given away.)

It'd probably work if done judiciously. Overuse it for too long and eventually something will test it (which works to your advantage with long-lasting faithful hounds, but will take a while). So likely a good tactic for battlefield control. I might require you to make a couple checks for deception and stealth to sound convincing and make the mouth not visible to those who see it.

And, of course, faking it with a magic mouth that's "poorly hidden" that is "barking" when there's a real faithful hound there in a path that is an obvious one to take is also a good tactic for tricking people.

[Telok]

Actually setting up a kill zone is a bit trickier, because a 3x3 "danger zone" that the enemy has to actually stop in (of which only the outer square is occupiable by them) is not very big, and even with terrain and choke points, arranging so they get to that section is hard.

I think there is potentially more trouble than just this in the spell. The hound only attacks hostile creatures within 5' of the caster. You may literally have to stand next to it and, dm ruling dependent, it may not be able to attack things on the opposite side of you. Anything with reach can be immune to it's attacks by simply not being adjacent to the caster.

In addition since the hound can't take the hide action the common interpretation of stealth says that everyone knows there's an invisible thing in that space.

[JNAProductions]

I think there is potentially more trouble than just this in the spell. The hound only attacks hostile creatures within 5' of the caster. You may literally have to stand next to it and, dm ruling dependent, it may not be able to attack things on the opposite side of you. Anything with reach can be immune to it's attacks by simply not being adjacent to the caster.

In addition since the hound can't take the hide action the common interpretation of stealth says that everyone knows there's an invisible thing in that space.


At the start of each of your turns, the hound attempts to bite one creature within 5 feet of it that is hostile to you. The hound’s attack bonus is equal to your spellcasting ability modifier + your proficiency bonus. On a hit, it deals 4d8 piercing damage.

Now, this is from the internet, but unless that's wrong, it attacks foes within 5' of the HOUND, not the caster.

[Segev]

I think there is potentially more trouble than just this in the spell. The hound only attacks hostile creatures within 5' of the caster. You may literally have to stand next to it and, dm ruling dependent, it may not be able to attack things on the opposite side of you. Anything with reach can be immune to it's attacks by simply not being adjacent to the caster.

In addition since the hound can't take the hide action the common interpretation of stealth says that everyone knows there's an invisible thing in that space.


Now, this is from the internet, but unless that's wrong, it attacks foes within 5' of the HOUND, not the caster.

Yeah, the foe just needs to be within 5 ft. of the hound and hostile to the caster. Nothing about needing to be within 5 ft. of the caster.

[Telok]

Ok, my bad. Apparently I've been reading it wrong. I think it still suffers the invisible creature radar issue tho, which means you need a method of forcing enemies into position for the start of the caster's turn. But I think Segev covered that one.