Sacred Bonus to AC, what are the rules?

[lolcat]

Greetings playground!

The Mystic Wanderer prestige class, at lvl 1, gives the following ability:
"Glory of the Divine (Su): A mystic wanderer who wears no armor gains a sacred (or profane, if her patron deity is evil) bonus to AC equal to her Charisma bonus (if any)."

Where in the rules is it noted whether a sacred, or profane, bonus to AC is added to regular AC, or to touch and flat footed AC as well?

Thanks for the help,

lolcat

[tyckspoon]

Touch AC is defined as 'does not include Armor, Shield, or Natural Armor.' All other kinds of AC bonus are included unless the specific source of them says otherwise. Likewise Flatfooted means no Dex bonus and no Dodge bonus, because Dodge bonuses explicitly don't work when you can't apply Dex; all other bonus types are still applied unless the specific source of the bonus says otherwise.

See https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking for the specific bonuses - each one will mention any specific circumstances where it doesn't usually apply.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm has the explanation of a Touch Attack, where it repeats that it only removes Armor, Natural Armor, and Shield.

Flat Footed (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted) is in with the Conditions; you can see there it only removes Dex bonus, and by referencing the Stacking/bonus types section by extension Dodge bonuses, as those are conditional on being able to use Dex.

[ngilop]

If a bonus applies to touch AC it will say it in the description. If it does not state such, then it would not apply.

it would say something along the lines of the following "These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when flat-footed."

I could be wrong, but there are a few PrC that have the above language on there AC bonus abilities and others that lack it, that is what leads to belief that it only applies if it states it applies.

to further my stance

The character sheets for 3rd ed (also pathfinder and most other d20 based games) have AC, touch AC, and Flat footed AC all listed as separate instances, so if it just AC that is getting a sacred bonus, why would you also include that on your sheet under touch and/or flat-footed?

[Powerdork]

The character sheets for 3rd ed (also pathfinder and most other d20 based games) have AC, touch AC, and Flat footed AC all listed as separate instances

As a convenience to players, who regularly have to check "AC, but I can't use my natural agility" and "AC, but if they touch my protective equipment I suffer the full effect" at the request of a GM. That is by definition what flat-footed AC and touch AC are. It would suck if you had to reverse-engineer your AC every time a monster used a touch on you or you were caught unable to respond to an attack.

[Psyren]

If a bonus applies to touch AC it will say it in the description. If it does not state such, then it would not apply.

This is incorrect; Touch AC states what does not apply (armor, natural armor, and shield). Everything else - insight, dodge, deflection, circumstance etc - does. That includes sacred/profane.

"Touch Attacks

Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn’t include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally."

In Pathfinder, CMD works similarly - it tells you what doesn't count, and everything else does (including sacred/profane again.)

[Thurbane]

This is incorrect; Touch AC states what does not apply (armor, natural armor, and shield). Everything else - insight, dodge, deflection, circumstance etc - does. That includes sacred/profane.

"Touch Attacks

Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn’t include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally."

Agreed. In effect, Sacred will apply to touch and FF AC values.

Side question: would incorporeal touch attacks ignore a Sacred bonus, or not?

[Psyren]

Sacred applies to incorporeal touch, i.e. it doesn't bypass it.

The only real difference between "touch" and "incorporeal touch" is that the latter doesn't defeat force effects, even if those effects fall into categories that normally don't work on touch attacks. For example, Mage Armor provides an armor bonus (which normal touch attacks ignore), but the armor it creates is made of force, so it hedges out an incorporeal touch attack.

If you want to visualize it - most regular touch attacks are transferring energy of some kind, e.g. a spell, like Chill Touch or Shocking Grasp. If you're wearing armor and a mage touches you with Chill Touch, you've stopped their hand from touching your skin - but that doesn't matter to the energy they're trying to transfer to you, thus they hit.

An incorporeal touch meanwhile isn't transferring energy - rather, it's the incorporeal creature trying to stick their hand inside you. Or more accurately, it does involve transferring energy, but they can only transfer it after having bypassed any protections you've got on. Force effects count, so Mage Armor stops their hand from making contact, and there is no spell to carry the effect the rest of the way.

[KillianHawkeye]

Side question: would incorporeal touch attacks ignore a Sacred bonus, or not?

I don't see why they would.

An incorporeal touch attack is just like an ordinary touch attack (in that it ignores your armor/shield/natural armor) except that force effects can still be used (like mage armor). If anything, MORE things can be counted in your AC than for a standard touch attack, not less.

[Thurbane]

Sacred applies to incorporeal touch, i.e. it doesn't bypass it.

The only real difference between "touch" and "incorporeal touch" is that the latter doesn't defeat force effects, even if those effects fall into categories that normally don't work on touch attacks. For example, Mage Armor provides an armor bonus (which normal touch attacks ignore), but the armor it creates is made of force, so it hedges out an incorporeal touch attack.

If you want to visualize it - most regular touch attacks are transferring energy of some kind, e.g. a spell, like Chill Touch or Shocking Grasp. If you're wearing armor and a mage touches you with Chill Touch, you've stopped their hand from touching your skin - but that doesn't matter to the energy they're trying to transfer to you, thus they hit.

An incorporeal touch meanwhile isn't transferring energy - rather, it's the incorporeal creature trying to stick their hand inside you. Or more accurately, it does involve transferring energy, but they can only transfer it after having bypassed any protections you've got on. Force effects count, so Mage Armor stops their hand from making contact, and there is no spell to carry the effect the rest of the way.

I don't see why they would.

An incorporeal touch attack is just like an ordinary touch attack (in that it ignores your armor/shield/natural armor) except that force effects can still be used (like mage armor). If anything, MORE things can be counted in your AC than for a standard touch attack, not less.

Makes sense. Thank you both.