My soul has left me, or the tale of the 3d6 in order for stats

[ParticlePigeon]

To begin, my friend who is a cruel and capricious individual has forced me to roll for stats to get my choice of next campaign. I have a 6 Strength. 7 Dexterity, 15 Constitution, 10 Wisdom, 5 intelligence, and an 11 charisma. Any ideas on a build for Descent into Avernus that wouldn't kill itself making breakfast? A character that isn't a wonder to survive to adulthood? Sincerely, level 1 stats like these make me want to hop into a bathtub holding a toaster, but I want to seduce Devil Waifus before I kick the bucket in DnD or real life for that manner. Anyways, if anyone could present a character build that is not a failure, I would greatly appreciate it so I can get back to my enjoyable DnD experience. (Sadly, I have been forbidden from committing character suicide right out of the gate, so what should I do?

[Zetakya]

what should I do?

Find a DM that wants to run a game that people enjoy, not torture their players with unusable characters based on poor luck at session zero?

[Man_Over_Game]

Dwarf Nature Cleric.

Wear Heavy Armor with no penalties, start maxing out Wisdom and get an additional hitpoint per level to put you on the same bar as fighters. Most of your contribution is in buffs and healing anyway, so it's not like you'll need much in terms of stats.

Or Gnome Moon Druid. Steal someone else's stats.


Find a DM that wants to run a game that people enjoy, not torture their players with unusable characters based on poor luck at session zero?

Or what he said

[ProsecutorGodot]

Is it really character suicide if your character is less intelligent than many animals and only vaguely aware of their surroundings?

I'd go full force into it, ask the DM to play a Volo's Orc and introduce your Orc Barbarian as they run face first into Baldur's Gate screaming about how they will pillage the shinies. If by some miracle you actually make it into the city you're definitely not lasting long afterwards despite your best efforts.

Serious answer: Tell the DM that you are struggling to find a way to enjoy yourself with the prospect of playing a character with these stats. If they don't offer a reroll, ask them what character they would enjoy playing with these kinds of stats.

You've now either got a suggestion towards a character or an understanding from your DM that this isn't going to be fun.

[Eldariel]

That Con is really nice. You can play a Moon Druid just fine with those stats (or a Druid in general; just don't pick anything with an attack roll or save and you're golden). That's about the only way to go; everything else is stat-dependent. Luckily Moon is a good build anyways. The only problem is you'll have very few spells per day but given you basically don't care about most spells that's all good. Vuman Observant Human with 16 Con/12 Wis is a nice start and then just all ASIs into Wis and you'll be capping out on 16. It's not ideal but probably the best you can do given this scenario. Well, you'll probably have to pick up Res: Con too to maintain Concentration while you go to town.

Bard or Warlock isn't a horrid option either, though you'll have AC problems but being able to start with a 13 in your main casting stat is nice. Druid might actually be better served by taking Res: Con as the level 1 feat, putting the first ASI into Wis + Con and going from there. This is more efficient in the long run but you'll take until level 20 to max out your casting stat which is kinda dull (but you'll have 18 Con and Res: Con from level 4 making your Concentration checks pretty great).

[MaxWilson]

To begin, my friend who is a cruel and capricious individual has forced me to roll for stats to get my choice of next campaign. I have a 6 Strength. 7 Dexterity, 15 Constitution, 10 Wisdom, 5 intelligence, and an 11 charisma. Any ideas on a build for Descent into Avernus that wouldn't kill itself making breakfast? A character that isn't a wonder to survive to adulthood? Sincerely, level 1 stats like these make me want to hop into a bathtub holding a toaster, but I want to seduce Devil Waifus before I kick the bucket in DnD or real life for that manner. Anyways, if anyone could present a character build that is not a failure, I would greatly appreciate it so I can get back to my enjoyable DnD experience. (Sadly, I have been forbidden from committing character suicide right out of the gate, so what should I do?

Definitely Goblin Moon Druid w/ Skulker ASAP. Abuse Longstrider, Pass Without Trace, Goodberry, Spike Growth (quasi-Fireball), Conjure Animals, Polymorph, Conjure Elemental, and the Dunning-Krueger effect. I.e. never admit even to yourself that you are one bit less intelligent than the smartest wizard out there. You're definitely a lot tougher!

P.S. Abuse Healing Spirit too if you have the pre-errata version.

[Witty Username]

moon druid.

[Safety Sword]

To begin, my friend who is a cruel and capricious individual has forced me to roll for stats to get my choice of next campaign. I have a 6 Strength. 7 Dexterity, 15 Constitution, 10 Wisdom, 5 intelligence, and an 11 charisma. Any ideas on a build for Descent into Avernus that wouldn't kill itself making breakfast? A character that isn't a wonder to survive to adulthood? Sincerely, level 1 stats like these make me want to hop into a bathtub holding a toaster, but I want to seduce Devil Waifus before I kick the bucket in DnD or real life for that manner. Anyways, if anyone could present a character build that is not a failure, I would greatly appreciate it so I can get back to my enjoyable DnD experience. (Sadly, I have been forbidden from committing character suicide right out of the gate, so what should I do?

Aside from the "run the game people want to play aspect" (the most important part) the other thing to consider is this: Descent into Avernus is a rough adventure. Some of the combats are TPKs waiting to happen if you DM isn't on top of them.

You're going to fail every saving throw and ability check except for CON with those stats. You might as well go open a tavern in Waterdeep.

[ImproperJustice]

I used to play Gamma World waaaaay back in the day.
It was this Zany post apocalyptic game where you rolled ln a while bunch of random mutation tables.
Sometimes you got something playble, sometimes you were a psychic cockroach with no real powers, glass bones and an allegy to air and water.

In those circumstances they recommended, doing your part for the team by using your valuable hit points to soak up damage for the other, more useful characters in your group.

Get out there, take risks, and take all of them for the team. That way, you can help them succeed by dying as fast as possible and getting a second shot at playing something worthwhile.

I recommend playing as:

Joey Slowboat
Variant Human w/ Toughness Feat
Start either as a Cavalier w/ the protection style and stand out there blocking blows with your mighty shield and suck down that enemy DPS like a tasty death slurpy.

Then act as the party Rogue by disarming traps with your body.
Fight no one with weapons. Only use your Mark abilities and Protection style while taking the Dodge action every turn.

Repeat until something dies and see how far you get.

Or, honestly.
Tell your GM to *insert expletives*
Gygax himself said he never intended anyone to do a 3d6 build in order.
It’s stupid, a waste of your valuable time that could be spent doing anything else, and he needs to understand that people play this game to have fun, not suffer for hours playing a gimp character.

Even by OSR rules, a character with more negatives than positives is allowed a reroll.

[Luccan]

Explain to your DM that the 3d6 model was used in a time when stats largely existed to determine what classes you were allowed to play and most stats didn't effect you as greatly (and usually not until they got very high or very low).

Or follow Zee Bashew's advice: take risks you wouldn't with a character you wanted to live. Live or die, have the character's existence be something you and your table will talk about for years.

Either way, Moon Druid is your safest bet to survive.

[Arkhios]

Is it really character suicide if your character is less intelligent than many animals and only vaguely aware of their surroundings?

I'd go full force into it, ask the DM to play a Volo's Orc and introduce your Orc Barbarian as they run face first into Baldur's Gate screaming about how they will pillage the shinies. If by some miracle you actually make it into the city you're definitely not lasting long afterwards despite your best efforts.

Serious answer: Tell the DM that you are struggling to find a way to enjoy yourself with the prospect of playing a character with these stats. If they don't offer a reroll, ask them what character they would enjoy playing with these kinds of stats.

You've now either got a suggestion towards a character or an understanding from your DM that this isn't going to be fun.

According to OP's words about their DM being cruel and capricious, I somehow doubt the OP would get any sort of mutual understanding that these stats aren't going to be fun. If the DM really is as described they would probably offer a false answer just to make the OP suffer even more. I mean, I abhor people who are so evil, but I know there are people who enjoy watching others suffer.

I don't support acts of violence, but there are some people even I wouldn't feel sorry for if something would happen to them.

That out of my system, I agree that a Moon Druid would be just about the only good option with these stats. Going single-classed doesn't have any minimum requisites, and getting access to any spell levels isn't tied to an ability score in 5th edition, which is actually a good thing. And the amount of spell slots you'll get is fixed on your class level, so you won't get any more or less slots just because your ability score is bad.

[terodil]

To begin, my friend who is a cruel and capricious individual has forced me to roll for stats to get my choice of next campaign. I have a 6 Strength. 7 Dexterity, 15 Constitution, 10 Wisdom, 5 intelligence, and an 11 charisma. Any ideas on a build for Descent into Avernus that wouldn't kill itself making breakfast? A character that isn't a wonder to survive to adulthood? Sincerely, level 1 stats like these make me want to hop into a bathtub holding a toaster, but I want to seduce Devil Waifus before I kick the bucket in DnD or real life for that manner. Anyways, if anyone could present a character build that is not a failure, I would greatly appreciate it so I can get back to my enjoyable DnD experience. (Sadly, I have been forbidden from committing character suicide right out of the gate, so what should I do?
Am I seriously the only one who read this as April's Fools? I'm kinda baffled by all the 'tell your GM s/he sucks' replies, although I guess they were to be expected as the default reaction of outrage.

I liked it.

[Ortho]

Sincerely, level 1 stats like these make me want to hop into a bathtub holding a toaster, but I want to seduce Devil Waifus before I kick the bucket in DnD

You know what, if that's your goal, then I think we've all been approaching this from the wrong angle.

First, you want to get your Charisma as high as possible. Your Intelligence is a lost cause, and something tells me that someone with decent Wisdom wouldn't be pursuing this goal in the first place, so that leaves your Charisma to impress them. I'd recommend you go Tiefling; that Infernal Legacy might even give you brownie points with them. Who knows?

In terms of class, a Bard is the obvious choice for seduction. College of Glamor gets Enthralling Performance at third level, which is explicitly described as seductive. You also get Expertise at this level, which should help. I'd recommend taking a level of Hexblade at some point, too; you'll need a replacement attack stat and your AC's garbage no matter what but at least now you'll have access to Shield.

EDIT:

Am I seriously the only one who read this as April's Fools?

I'm ashamed to say it took me a few re-reads to realize how light-hearted OP's post actually is.

[micahaphone]

I was woken up by a work page, it's technically now April 2, I need particle pidgeon to confirm/deny if this is a prank right now! :smallsmile:


If it isn't a prank, does your DM count playing a greatsword wielding fighter as suicide, if you just play as you normally would such a character?


With those abysmal stats but good Con, I'd be tempted to take the noble background and base your character off Charles II of Spain, the last Hapsburg, the most inbred royalty to exist. Strange misshapen head, limited mental capabilities, and a whole host of horrible illness. He somehow lived to the age of 38.

His autopsy stated "his corpse did not contain a single drop of blood; his heart was the size of a peppercorn; his lungs corroded; his intestines rotten and gangrenous; he had a single testicle, black as coal, and his head was full of water. It is a mystery why God chose to continually grant life to a body bent on death"

[Willie the Duck]

Am I seriously the only one who read this as April's Fools? I'm kinda baffled by all the 'tell your GM s/he sucks' replies, although I guess they were to be expected as the default reaction of outrage.

There is always a delicate dance when dealing with a suspected troll (for these purposes an April Fools Day prank approximates community-sanctioned trolldom). Clearly people like the Sorcerer King are best dealt with by being ignored. However, in general if you run into something that looks like it is being posted disingenuously, is it better to call it out, or answer in good faith (the worst case scenario being that the it is a prank, and the perpetrator walks away with the false impression that they totally put one over upon you)? In this case, that so many more people are answering something along the lines of 'play a ____' than the 'call out your DM' style response tells me that people are aware that this is likely bogus, and simply don't feel the need to call it out.

[Luccan]

There is always a delicate dance when dealing with a suspected troll (for these purposes an April Fools Day prank approximates community-sanctioned trolldom). Clearly people like the Sorcerer King are best dealt with by being ignored. However, in general if you run into something that looks like it is being posted disingenuously, is it better to call it out, or answer in good faith (the worst case scenario being that the it is a prank, and the perpetrator walks away with the false impression that they totally put one over upon you)? In this case, that so many more people are answering something along the lines of 'play a ____' than the 'call out your DM' style response tells me that people are aware that this is likely bogus, and simply don't feel the need to call it out.

Personally, I skimmed the OP, so I wasn't really reading for tone.

[ParticlePigeon]

I need particle pidgeon to confirm/deny if this is a prank right now! :smallsmile

Sadly, this is not a prank, though the humor of it is quite evident. Thanks for the advice, everyone in this thread, and soon we will see the mentally handicapped glamor bard seduce his way through hell!

[JumboWheat01]

Sadly, this is not a prank, though the humor of it is quite evident. Thanks for the advice, everyone in this thread, and soon we will see the mentally handicapped glamor bard seduce his way through hell!

And suddenly the world sees a spike in tieflings...

[CTurbo]

With stats like that, I would build the worst character possible, but play it straight the whole time. Like do your best and be serious with it.

Kobold Barbarian comes to mind. 4 Str, 9 Dex, 15 Con, 5 Int, 10 Wis, 11 Cha. I'd go Berserker. Always Reckless Attack, Always Frenzy.

Orc Barbarian could work too. 8 Str, 9 Dex, 16 Con, 3 Int, 10 Wis, 11 Cha. Again I'd go Berserker. This guy has an Int on par with most beasts and I would play him as such. He's not smart enough to wear clothes or use weapons.

[Addaran]

Sadly, this is not a prank, though the humor of it is quite evident. Thanks for the advice, everyone in this thread, and soon we will see the mentally handicapped glamor bard seduce his way through hell!

Is he really cruel and capricious or that was the humor? D:
If the others have equally bad stats, it's not much a problem but if you're the only unlucky one, it really sucks.

I'd have suggested fire genasi so you can cast produce flame with your con, but you're in the one campaign where everyone will probably be immune or at least resist fire.

Good choice on bard, from MJP's suggestion.

[da newt]

Yuan-ti will help with saving throws, but I'd play this character just as the stats dictate - they have trouble understanding what is going on around them, are easily distracted, get lost often, etc. Then (because I'm vindictive), I'd see how much I can frustrate the DM by going off script at every opportunity. BTW, an Ape has an INT of 6, a Crawling Hand has an INT of 5, a Hill Giant has an INT of 5, an Ogre has a 5 INT ... read the MM Ogre Paragraph about "Legendary Stupidity."

I don't believe a 5 INT PC would have the ability to successfully cast a spell on purpose, and with significantly sub par DEX and ST they won't stand a chance in melee.

If you do go Bard, I'd play it as one of the many "America's got Talent" performers who think they can sing/play but get tossed the first round.

[MaxWilson]

There is always a delicate dance when dealing with a suspected troll (for these purposes an April Fools Day prank approximates community-sanctioned trolldom). Clearly people like the Sorcerer King are best dealt with by being ignored. However, in general if you run into something that looks like it is being posted disingenuously, is it better to call it out, or answer in good faith (the worst case scenario being that the it is a prank, and the perpetrator walks away with the false impression that they totally put one over upon you)? In this case, that so many more people are answering something along the lines of 'play a ____' than the 'call out your DM' style response tells me that people are aware that this is likely bogus, and simply don't feel the need to call it out.

That doesn't follow. OP asks for builds, people give builds. Taking someone seriously and answering their question is not evidence of thinking that the post is likely bogus.

I took it seriously, and I'm glad I did because it turns out to be perfectly serious. Goblin Moon Druid is awesome, especially at a 3d6-in-order table where you're going to wind up having significantly more HP than probably anyone else, even before you count wildshape HP. Mental stats are pretty decent except for Int, and there are obvious roleplaying possibilities with Int 5 and Dunning-Krueger. Explain your low Str and Dex by just saying you're an old goblin with a walking stick. Name the PC Yoda.

Have fun ripping the monsters to shreds.


Is he really cruel and capricious or that was the humor? D:

THAT part was obviously good-humored irony.

[Segev]

First off, this stat line would have been an automatic reroll in any edition, I think, even 1e. That said, if you're running with it (as it seems you are) as a challenge/lark, here are some suggestions.

You're NOT going to multiclass. You can't legally do so with those stats. So prepare to be in just one class your whole career.

Half-Orc Zealot Barbarian. Survivability-wise, this is a good choice, because half-orcs can tank an otherwise-lethal blow once per long rest (going to 1 rather than 0 hp). Barbarians can do this after a certain level as well. Zealot barbarians have a third-level feature that means that you can be brought back to life wtihout material components, too. This actually doesn't really kick in until level 5, when your party cleric can cast revivify, but it's useful. And the Barbarian Unarmored calculation lets you use your 15 Con to help with your AC.

Alternatively, Half-Orc Totem Warrior Barbarian, going for Bear Totem at level 3. When raging, you resist everything but psychic damage. This will mean a lot in Avernus, I'm sure. (I haven't read the module, but I doubt psychic damage is high on devils' list of types.)

On the "get a devil waifu" side of things, you could go for a drow rogue. Your dex would still need some work from ASIs or half-feats, but a 9 isn't the worst thing possible (not with the stats you're stuck with, anyway). Play him like a dumb pretty-boy who's used to social climbing purely on his looks (and a bit of stupid viciousness), but who got ousted by a rival for a powerful Matron's affections/attentions and is now exiled from drow society. Sneak attack will do a lot to counteract your low stats for damage. Bonus action Hide or Disengage will help keep you safe (you'll want Expertise on your Stealth, because you'll need all the bonus you can get with that low Dex).

If you mix it up and use the drow race for the cultural pretty-boy-toy-seeking-sugar-mamma-devil attitude, but make him a barbarian instead, a totem warrior again helps survivability a lot. And having Eagle totem at level 6 make your Darkvision extend for a mile (if the DM allows that tricky rules interaction) could be hillarious. The Entertainer background could get you some much-needed skill proficiencies to be properly seductive (or at least impressive), and there's even the Gladiator variant if you want to show off.

Bard is interestingly open to you because, despite the Charisma-based casting (which the 11 at least gives no penalty to), you can do a lot that's just dice-based. Bardic inspiration aids your party the same way regardless of how likable you are. If you go Lore Bard, Cutting Words similarly deflates enemy checks without caring how Charismatic you are.

Or - and hear me out here - you could go wizard. Specifically, Divination Wizard Halfling. Take all the dice-manipulation you can. Go for battlefield control that doesn't allow saves (fog cloud, darkness) or which requires actions to overcome (silent image et al). You think life is easy, and you dance through it oblivious to its dangers because things "will work out."

Halfling Wild Magic Sorcerer could play similarly.

[MaxWilson]

You're NOT going to multiclass. You can't legally do so with those stats. So prepare to be in just one class your whole career.
SNIP

Bard is interestingly open to you because, despite the Charisma-based casting (which the 11 at least gives no penalty to), you can do a lot that's just dice-based. Bardic inspiration aids your party the same way regardless of how likable you are. If you go Lore Bard, Cutting Words similarly deflates enemy checks without caring how Charismatic you are.

Bardic Inspiration is *heavily* reliant on Charisma actually. With Cha 11 you get only one use per rest.

But you can actually multiclass just fine if you want to. Half-elf for Cha 13 unlocks all of the Cha multiclassing if you really want it. E.g. Hexblade 2/Divine Soul X if you want to be a healer and a buffer with a tiny bit of blasting and control.

[Addaran]

And the Barbarian Unarmored calculation lets you use your 15 Con to help with your AC.

Bard is interestingly open to you because, despite the Charisma-based casting (which the 11 at least gives no penalty to), you can do a lot that's just dice-based. Bardic inspiration aids your party the same way regardless of how likable you are. If you go Lore Bard, Cutting Words similarly deflates enemy checks without caring how Charismatic you are.

Or - and hear me out here - you could go wizard. Specifically, Divination Wizard Halfling. Take all the dice-manipulation you can. Go for battlefield control that doesn't allow saves (fog cloud, darkness) or which requires actions to overcome (silent image et al). You think life is easy, and you dance through it oblivious to its dangers because things "will work out."


WIth Zealot, i don't think he want to encourage being raised. =P

Unarmored AC is pretty garbage in that situation. With -2 dex and +2 con, you're only at 10. With good racial stat, you could have -1 dex and +3 con, which is still only 12. A scale mail would give the same, even better if you get racial dex.

Bardic inspiration are based on your cha for how often you do them. You'd only have 1 until lvl 4.


Love the drow rogue suggestion and the divination wizard halfling. =D

[Samayu]

Of course, when your stats indicate a character you want to die quickly, CON is your only high one.

[CTurbo]

I'm all for rolling for stats in order. I've done it several times, but you have to be at least somewhat forgiving. 4d6 drop lowest usually will yield decent results

Anyway, there is no way to make a viable useful character with that stat spread. You might as well have some fun wit it. If you didn't like the Barbarian ideas, the only other thing I could thing of is making a Sorcerer. Of course it's too dumb to cast spells on purpose. You'd cast spells strictly on accident when you got mad or excited. I'd make him a Wild Mage Sorc too just for extra kicks. As far as what spells you do cast, I'd probably roll a d(whatever) how many spells you had at the time to see what to cast.

Race? Half-Elf or Human would be best if you really care. You could have a 14 Cha at level 4.

[Willie the Duck]

That doesn't follow. OP asks for builds, people give builds. Taking someone seriously and answering their question is not evidence of thinking that the post is likely bogus.

My response isn't a formal argument, it is an off the cuff armchair psychoanalysis. It is my supposition that if people thought it was an April fools joke, they would (if not calling out/querying the authenticity of the op) be more likely to roll with it and suggest a build, while people who believed the OP would be more likely to suggest addressing the why-game-with-a-cruel-DM facet of the situation. I guess you are right that it doesn't follow because I used the phrase 'it tells me' where I should have said 'it suggests to me.'


First off, this stat line would have been an automatic reroll in any edition, I think, even 1e.

I only have oD&D (and not supplement I, which changes much) of the basic/classic line on this computer, but I don't recall that rule for B, B/X, or BECMI. I do know 1E, 2E and 3E have it.

[Luccan]

My response isn't a formal argument, it is an off the cuff armchair psychoanalysis. It is my supposition that if people thought it was an April fools joke, they would (if not calling out/querying the authenticity of the op) be more likely to roll with it and suggest a build, while people who believed the OP would be more likely to suggest addressing the why-game-with-a-cruel-DM facet of the situation. I guess you are right that it doesn't follow because I used the phrase 'it tells me' where I should have said 'it suggests to me.'



I only have oD&D (and not supplement I, which changes much) of the basic/classic line on this computer, but I don't recall that rule for B, B/X, or BECMI. I do know 1E, 2E and 3E have it.

I think it was a pretty old piece of advice. I don't recall an actual rule about it.

[Willie the Duck]

I think it was a pretty old piece of advice. I don't recall an actual rule about it.

For those versions of the game where stats matter a lot, it certainly shapes play quite a bit. Initially I think the idea was that the possibility that you might roll low was considered part of the tradeoff of the possibility that you could roll high, and thus considered a positive thing. After all, if your character's stats were too low, they likely wouldn't last too long anyways, and then you would get another chance to roll for high numbers. As it became clear that primary audience of the game was going to not be the pre-existing wargamer audience for which Gary initially intended it, I think he might have decided that many-to-most players wouldn't want to play through the low-rolls on the way to something more advantageous, and started suggesting the target range. I should do a Strategic Review/Dragon trawl and see if I can figure out when the shift happened.

[Luccan]

For those versions of the game where stats matter a lot, it certainly shapes play quite a bit. Initially I think the idea was that the possibility that you might roll low was considered part of the tradeoff of the possibility that you could roll high, and thus considered a positive thing. After all, if your character's stats were too low, they likely wouldn't last too long anyways, and then you would get another chance to roll for high numbers. As it became clear that primary audience of the game was going to not be the pre-existing wargamer audience for which Gary initially intended it, I think he might have decided that many-to-most players wouldn't want to play through the low-rolls on the way to something more advantageous, and started suggesting the target range. I should do a Strategic Review/Dragon trawl and see if I can figure out when the shift happened.

Huh. I'd heard Gary had always considered there was a point of uselessness for low stats (beyond just not qualifying for any classes) at which point it was best to assume the character died young and roll again. I'd be interested to see proof of it either way (also, beyond the "well what'd you do?" attitude of the early days, what kind of actual advice did they give out?)

[mAc Chaos]

One of my friends once played a 4 INT character. He leaned into it hard and made a very funny but dumb wrestler. He ended up being the most memorable character of the party.

If your DM doesn't just hate you, he probably likes seeing the kind of creativity these kinds of random stats make people come up with. Lean hard into it and try to play something that makes sense of it. Maybe he's an old man. Maybe he's dying of a disease. Maybe he has a curse on him. It could be a plot device.

[Luccan]

Oh, incidentally since people keep bringing it up, I think 5e has abandoned both the notion of Int=IQ/10 or any other real world "measure" of intelligence and the idea that below a certain score is animal-level intelligence. Animal Int scores are all over the place this edition.

[Arkhios]

Oh, incidentally since people keep bringing it up, I think 5e has abandoned both the notion of Int=IQ/10 or any other real world "measure" of intelligence and the idea that below a certain score is animal-level intelligence. Animal Int scores are all over the place this edition.

This. A low intelligent humanoid is still able to converse with other humanoids who they share a language with and act like other humanoids. They don't become animals purely because of their intelligence is lower than X beast.

A character with intelligence below standard, for example, would just be a hill billy country oaf.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsons/images/0/06/Brandine_and_Cletus.png/revision/latest?cb=20130512161829

[Lycurgon]

While I would be okay playing that sort of character in a one off, I would decline play in that campaign. I could only play a character like that in a farcical way. Descent into Avernus sounds like it is a great campaign and I would not want to waste a chance to enjoy it with a game that could only be a comedy of error. So personally I would decline the game and wait for the DM to change his mind, run his next game or for another game came along.

[Iku Rex]

Low stats are not that big a deal.

Moon druid is the obvious solution.

You could play a spellcaster that supports the rest of the party, like a healbot life cleric or a buffer bard.

You could play a beast master ranger or battle smith artificer and contribute through your pet.

My favorite is probably a half-elf warlock. Get pact of the chain for an advanced familiar as an advisor and helper. Hexblade for weapon attacks, or maybe Celestial to heal.

[BurgerBeast]

Have fun. See it as a challenge. Create a backstory to explain how this unlikely debentures was thrust into the life. How much can you accomplish with this character? See if you can surprise people. I think Moon Druid is the choice, here.

But I do love the hill dwarf cleric suggestion. I love playing them. You’d be surprised how effective you can be by repeatedly taking the dodge action while standing in position to protect the back-liners. Save your spells for healing word re-pops. Once you get level 2 spells you can do the same but bonus action attack using spiritual weapon on rounds when you don’t heal. Once you get a bit of survivability, you can risk the occasional toll the dead instead of constantly dodging.

[SVamp]

Moon Druid with a splash of Barbadian all the way. Raging Reckless bears & dinosaurs FTW

[MaxWilson]

Moon Druid with a splash of Barbadian all the way. Raging Reckless bears & dinosaurs FTW

Can't multiclass to Bardbarian--stats are too low. But pure Moon Druid is fine.

[Democratus]

Stats just aren't that important in 5e, so long as you aren't multi-classing.

It's also not a very deadly version of the game.

Play whatever you want.

[KorvinStarmast]

For those versions of the game where stats matter a lot, it certainly shapes play quite a bit. Initially I think the idea was that the possibility that you might roll low was considered part of the tradeoff of the possibility that you could roll high, and thus considered a positive thing. After all, if your character's stats were too low, they likely wouldn't last too long anyways, and then you would get another chance to roll for high numbers. As it became clear that primary audience of the game was going to not be the pre-existing wargamer audience for which Gary initially intended it, I think he might have decided that many-to-most players wouldn't want to play through the low-rolls on the way to something more advantageous, and started suggesting the target range. I should do a Strategic Review/Dragon trawl and see if I can figure out when the shift happened. The "wander off into the sunset" line was either in Men and Magic or in AD&D 1e PHB or DMG. Strat Review did not cover this.
here is what it says in the AD&D 1e PHB:
(Bolding Mine)

Each and every character has six principal characteristics, the character's abilities. These abilities are strength, intelligence, wisdom, dexterity, constitution, and charisma. (See also APPENDIX I , Psionic Ability.) The s is between 3 and 18. The premise of the game is that the character is above average - at least in some respects - and has superior potential. Furthermore, it is usually essential to the character's survival to be exceptional (with a rating of 15 or above) in no
fewer than two ability characteristics.
Each ability score is determined by random number generation. The referee has several methods of how this random number generation should be accomplished suggested to him or her in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE. The Dungeon Master will inform you as to which method you may use to determine your character's abilities.
Here is what it says in the AD&D 1e DMG: (Page 10)

CREATING THE PLAYER CHARACTER
GENERATION OF ABILITY SCORES
As AD&D is an ongoing game of fantasy adventuring, it is important to allow participants to generate a viable character of the race and profession which he or she desires. While it is possible to generate some fairly playable characters by rolling 3d6, there is often an extended period of attempts at finding a suitable one due to quirks of the dice.
Furthermore, these rather marginal characters tend to have short life expectancy - which tends to discourage new players, as does having to make do with some character of a race and/or class which he or she really can't or won't identify with. Charact er generation, then, is a serious matter, and it is recommended that the following systems be used. Four alternatives are offered for player characters:

Method I:
All scores are recorded and arranged in the order the player desires. 4d6 are rolled, and the lowest die (or one of the lower) is discarded.

Method II:
All scores are recorded and arranged as in Method I. 3d6 are rolled 12 times and the highest 6 score retoined for that category.

Method III:
Scores rolled are according to each ability category, in order, STRENGTH, INTELLIGENCE, WISDOM, DEXTERITY, CONSTITUTION, CHARISMA. 3d6 are rolled 6 times for each ability, and the highest score in each category is

Method IV:
3d6 are rolled sufficient times to generate the 6 ability scores, in order, for 12 characters, The player then selects the single set of scores which he or she finds most desirable and these scores are noted on the character record sheet.s are retained. The only "3d6 in order" I recall is OD&D and Basic.

[Joe the Rat]

If he insists on 3d6 in order, insist that you do this four times, to produce the four characters you would lead into the (in this case literal) funnel. Whomever survives becomes your campaign character.

Because while Crom approves (even if he still laughs at you and kicks you out of Valhalla), Crom also encourages using the Dungeon Crawl Classics approach to actually playing this style.

(In a slightly less snarkish mode, part of the 3d6 down the line is that it is assumed that you will lose several characters before having the modestly adequate stats needed to survive.)

[nickl_2000]

I vote for tortle divine soul sorcerer,

You can focus on twining buff spells top help out allies from either the cleric or sorcerer spell lists.
You have decent AC due to the tortle.
Then focus on mold earth for your every round spell for battlefield control.
And guidance, all the guidance. ...

This way you can contribute all the time to the party

[Luccan]

Stats just aren't that important in 5e, so long as you aren't multi-classing.

It's also not a very deadly version of the game.

Play whatever you want.

They are if you want to hit things or succeed on checks or cast a larger variety of spells in day or have enemies be effected by certain spells... Unless you're a rogue, your ability bonus is more important than your proficiency mod for a good portion of the game. Which is why so many people are suggesting moon druid, because it will replace at least half their stats with more usable ones

[Democratus]

They are if you want to hit things or succeed on checks or cast a larger variety of spells in day or have enemies be effected by certain spells... Unless you're a rogue, your ability bonus is more important than your proficiency mod for a good portion of the game. Which is why so many people are suggesting moon druid, because it will replace at least half their stats with more usable ones

Not really. Hitting things isn't that hard in 5e thanks to bounded accuracy.

And missing things isn't the end of the world in a game that is far less deadly than most earlier editions.

5e simply doesn't require optimization in the way that 3rd edition did - when you were constantly chasing the bell curve.

[KorvinStarmast]

To begin, my friend who is a cruel and capricious individual has forced me to roll for stats to get my choice of next campaign. I have a 6 Strength. 7 Dexterity, 15 Constitution, 10 Wisdom, 5 intelligence, and an 11 charisma. Any ideas on a build for Descent into Avernus that wouldn't kill itself making breakfast? A character that isn't a wonder to survive to adulthood? Sincerely, level 1 stats like these make me want to hop into a bathtub holding a toaster, but I want to seduce Devil Waifus before I kick the bucket in DnD or real life for that manner. Anyways, if anyone could present a character build that is not a failure, I would greatly appreciate it so I can get back to my enjoyable DnD experience. (Sadly, I have been forbidden from committing character suicide right out of the gate, so what should I do?
Be a normal human.

You now have 7 str, 8 dex, 16 con 11 wisdom 6 Int 12 Cha.

Sorcerer(Shadow) or Moon Druid.
Focus on spells that aid your party.

And, if you have no fun doing this, have your PC jump off the first cliff that he can find.

Roll up another PC. :smallcool:

[JonBeowulf]

PHB pg 13 describes how scores are generated, and straight 3d6 is not listed. Friend or no, if my DM insisted on this kind of homebrew before the game even starts, I wouldn't be able to trust him during the game.

My 2cp, politely decline then jump on Roll20 and join one of the hundreds of games looking for players.

[Willie the Duck]

The "wander off into the sunset" line was either in Men and Magic or in AD&D 1e PHB or DMG. Strat Review did not cover this.
here is what it says in the AD&D 1e PHB:
(Bolding Mine)

Here is what it says in the AD&D 1e DMG: (Page 10)
The only "3d6 in order" I recall is OD&D and Basic.

1E came out 3-5 years after the game started (4 for the PHB). I am trying to figure out where I think the shift in mindset happened. If you know for certain that SR and Dragon did not cover this, I certainly won't hunt down my CD (and a computer CD reader) to go look. However, that 1E covers this is 1) really not surprising, and 2) not exhaustive of the TSR era.
*AD&D (and oD&D w/ supp.1) has a very different relationship with attributes than oD&D w/o supp or the rest of the basic/classic line. With 1E, if you are playing a character without 15+s in key attributes, and the person next to you is a fighter with an 18/## strength and maybe a nice Con as well, well then boy it absolutely is a different level of game, roughly akin to the OP's situation

[ZorroGames]

Been there, done that, my condolences. But I remember a Fighting man with a 10 in highest stat ( not strength or con,) with three (?) or 4 stats above 5 total that actually lasted a couple of games. Every little victory was enjoyed to the fullest.

That is when our war game/FRPG club founder, as DM, decided we should try other forms of creation with 3D6. 🤩

Yeah, Hearing about the Gygax comment referenced above was a face palm 🤦*♂️ moment for many of us followed by joy. 🥳. Strangely, no one bothered to confirm it, we just “ took the money and ran.”

Play to your weaknesses and enjoy it?

[Segev]

On all the people saying, "The DM shouldn't do that!" (in varying degrees of anger at the DM), remember the OP said that he bargained this with the DM in return for the OP getting to pick the next campaign. I don't know if that means the OP picked Descent Into Avernus, or if that means that he picks the one after this, but it's a "challenge run" sort of thing from the DM to the OP. This isn't quite the same thing as the DM just insisting on it.

What I'm curious about regarding the bargain is, if the OP is picking the campaign to follow, what does the DM do if the OP's PC dies? Go straight to the OP's choice of campaign? Let the OP make a character normally? Require him to make the next character the same way? What are the terms of this Infernal Compact that's been stricken?

[BoringInfoGuy]

To begin, my friend who is a cruel and capricious individual has forced me to roll for stats to get my choice of next campaign. I have a 6 Strength. 7 Dexterity, 15 Constitution, 10 Wisdom, 5 intelligence, and an 11 charisma. Any ideas on a build for Descent into Avernus that wouldn't kill itself making breakfast? A character that isn't a wonder to survive to adulthood? Sincerely, level 1 stats like these make me want to hop into a bathtub holding a toaster, but I want to seduce Devil Waifus before I kick the bucket in DnD or real life for that manner. Anyways, if anyone could present a character build that is not a failure, I would greatly appreciate it so I can get back to my enjoyable DnD experience. (Sadly, I have been forbidden from committing character suicide right out of the gate, so what should I do?

I’m going with a different suggestion. Hill Dwarf Life Cleric.

That will bump your Con to 17 and your Wisdom to 11.

Why Hill Dwarf? You have one good stat, Con. May as well build on it. Also, you’ll be able to wear Heavy armor without penalty, despite not having the Str for it.

Why Life Cleric?
First level gives you Heavy Armor Proficiency and Disciple of Life. DoL boosts your Healing by 2+Spell level. So even with your mediocre Wisdom score, you can heal as well as a standard point buy cleric with a +3 Wisdom bonus.

2nd Level grants Channel Divinity: Preserve Life, which is a Short Rest recharge Healing ability that is purely based on your Cleric Level, which again negates your meh Wisdom.

For combat, Cast Bless. At first level it will give three characters a bonus on Attack Rolls and Saving Throws. It takes concentration. But if you include yourself, your good Con Score with the Bless bonus means you are less likely to drop it early.

Your main contributions to combat at low levels are
1) Giving a buff to allies to help them kill things faster

2) Healing allies so they do not die.

3) Not dying yourself so that you can continue buffing and healing your allies.

At level 4, take Resilient Con. It will boost your Con to 18 (+4 mod) and let you add your proficiency bonus to all Constitution Saves. This greatly reduces your chance of losing a spell, which again Bless also helps with. Alternatively, it makes Warding Bond more viable. More HP to soak part of an ally’s damage without dropping concentration.

Level 8, take Observant and pick the plus 1 to Wisdom. It will bring your Wisdom to 12, enough to give you a +1 bonus. The boost to your Passive Perception and Investigation will be even better if you took those skills when making your character. If you can only get one skill, get perception.

Any remaining ASIs can boost your Wisdom score.

What about damage dealing? Weapons are likely to miss, and with those scores, Bless is not much help. Cleric Cantrips are all save based, and your DC will be easy to beat.

Aside from being a rogue’s sneak attack buddy, your best bet to contributing damage at lower levels will be Spiritual Weapon. It’s a 2nd Level spell that requires an attack roll using your Wisdom score. Still not great, but better than your Str or Dex. Since it is an attack roll though, it can benefit from Bless. Bringing you up to decent odds of landing a blow. It’s a Bonus Action, so you can still try to use your action to attack. 20’s do come up. It also has decent duration, no concentration and is one of the Life Domain Spells.

Later on, you can have Spirit Guardians up, which is save vs half at least. And difficult Terrain for all foes. Damage would never be your strong suit, but you can still be contributing.

On a side note, I’ve always wanted to play in a game that used 3d6 in order for stats.

[Samayu]

ParticlePigeon, I'm interested in some things. Why did the DM choose this? Is he reducing the power of the enemies to allow for the weak character(s)? Are the other players bound by the same rules, and how did their characters turn out?

And please tell us how things worked out for you!

[KorvinStarmast]

1E came out 3-5 years after the game started (4 for the PHB). I am trying to figure out where I think the shift in mindset happened. If you know for certain that SR and Dragon did not cover this, There may have been a Dragon article on this, but I do not have all of the early issues. If your CD has the early Dragon issues, that might be where to find it.

[HiveStriker]

To begin, my friend who is a cruel and capricious individual has forced me to roll for stats to get my choice of next campaign. I have a 6 Strength. 7 Dexterity, 15 Constitution, 10 Wisdom, 5 intelligence, and an 11 charisma. Any ideas on a build for Descent into Avernus that wouldn't kill itself making breakfast? A character that isn't a wonder to survive to adulthood? Sincerely, level 1 stats like these make me want to hop into a bathtub holding a toaster, but I want to seduce Devil Waifus before I kick the bucket in DnD or real life for that manner. Anyways, if anyone could present a character build that is not a failure, I would greatly appreciate it so I can get back to my enjoyable DnD experience. (Sadly, I have been forbidden from committing character suicide right out of the gate, so what should I do?


Find a DM that wants to run a game that people enjoy, not torture their players with unusable characters based on poor luck at session zero?
Naaaah. @OP: embrace the chance to play a really unique character that reallys knows its weaknesses...

Or simply go Moon Druid. ;)
You don't care that much about 10 WIS that way: just use support spells, pick Resilient Constitution ASAP, then simply boost WIS as much as you want depending on if you feel lacking in number of prepared spells or if you want to start using offensive spells.

DON'T engage in melee fight. It's a trap in general for any Druid, even Moon, but for you even more. Keep your Wild Shapes as a defensive option when you feel threatened.

Use spells that either don't care about your DC, like Heat Metal, spells that can target enough creatures to be efficient overall even with lower DC, like MoonBeam / Flaming Sphere / Faerie Fire, or simply support everyone with Enhance Ability, Healing Spirit, Pass Without Trace etc.
Once you're level 5 switch to Conjurations as needed.

Shepherd Druid would work better for a Conjurer to be honest, but I'd be afraid even with the Aura you'd have trouble surviving.

That's by far the easiest way.

Some other builds that may work well enough.
1. Tempest Cleric: go full support, just using maximized Shatter when needed. Ask your DM if there is any decent chance you'll get a Giant Belt or similar, make it clear that's one of your character objective. That way someday you can also use the melee properties of that Domain (although let's be honest, it's not mandatory). Pick the Dward race for no armor penalty as someone said.

2. Life Cleric: probably even easier: You can be a heal-alcoholic guy that keeps close to a pal to sustain Warding Bond, Heal Wording others as needed, while using his action on Helping a Rogue/Paladin land a powerful attack, gulping down a healing potion, using a kit with Healer feat, or maybe throwing some caltrops. Even Spirit Guardians is still a decent option: although DC for dealing damage is low, at least it's difficult terrain so it helps your frontliner keeping his prey close.

3. Hexblade Tome Warlock: be a Half-Elf (+2 CHA, +1 DEX, +1 whatever although I'd favor Constitution), pick Repelling Blast as your first invocation, then the "learn Rituals" one, then Devil's Sight, Lance of Lethargy, Grasp of Hadar, then whatever you want. Learn utility cantrips such as Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Guidance with the Tome. Learn as many rituals as possible, with Comprehend Languages and Find Familiar in your top picks. You'll use Darkness to grant you advantage at lower levels. Spend first ASI on Elven Accuracy (14 CHA), then Resilient: Constitution if you have an odd score, otherwise boost Charisma first and only).
That leveling ensures you have an actually decent chance of hitting early. You don't care AT ALL about Agonizing Blast because what was the less interesting Eldricht Blast buff in the first place is utterly useless for one with much lower CHA than usual. Your strength will come from movement control, pushing/pulling enemies while you also reduce their mobility.

4. Lore Bard: embrace your frailty of strength and agility: you have low physical stats because you overall spent so much time just playing your instruments and studying arts. Your high Constitution comes from a rigorous and sane lifestyle (plus some wouldn't believe, but playing instruments for hours, developing breathing capacity for sing, does affect your endurance). You have a low Intelligence and low Wisdom because your Charisma is born from your egocentrism breeding in turn some kind of strong self-confidence (yeah, there are many forms of Charisma, and this one is sadly fairly common XD).
Engage everything into avoiding conflits that party cannot handle, being in general a facilitator. Comprehend Languages, Silence, Heat Metal, Enhance Ability... Use Bardic Secrets to learn Counterspell and Conjure Animals (piggy-backing on Druid strategies).

5. Shadow Sorcerer: more or less similar fluff to just above except that you spent your life honing your own body to muster your natural magic (which makes easier to explain the high Constitution ;)). Be Half-Elf, pick Spell Sniper with Agonizing Blast, piggy-back on the same tactic as plain Warlock when you just want to deal damage, otherwise learn some great buffs to boost your allies with Twin.


One of my friends once played a 4 INT character. He leaned into it hard and made a very funny but dumb wrestler. He ended up being the most memorable character of the party.

If your DM doesn't just hate you, he probably likes seeing the kind of creativity these kinds of random stats make people come up with. Lean hard into it and try to play something that makes sense of it. Maybe he's an old man. Maybe he's dying of a disease. Maybe he has a curse on him. It could be a plot device.
This.

Honestly I personally wouln't mind at all playing any of those aforementioned builds, with those rolled stats.
I think I may even enjoy a Rogue, preferably Thief. Yeah, *even a guy whose main thing in battle is dealing damage based on DEX or STR*. I see many other ways I could contribute with objects in combat, and outside combat Expertise would offset low stats to make me still a good contributor. I'd pick Healer feat obviously, boost DEX, and make a quest of finding an item that boosts either STR or DEX, choosing my ASIs depending on that.

[pming]

Hiya!

With...
6 Strength. 7 Dexterity, 15 Constitution, 10 Wisdom, 5 intelligence, and an 11 charisma

...I'd go with a Cleric of "anything but war". Human, so you're at +1 to the above (re: Str 7, Dex 8, Con 16, Wis 11, Int 6, Cha 12).

The strength would put the PC on the "looks scrawny" side of things. Dex is hardly noticeable from the mass of commoners out there; those that get to know the character might say he/she is "a klutz" or "accident prone". The Intelligence of 6 is the most notable. Folks would quickly surmise that he/she is "a dim bulb" or "none to bright". But, that Charisma of 12 and the common sense of Wisdom 11 would easily follow those statements up with "...but he/she always does the right thing, and that's downright endearing!". In other words...people would like you.

So...the PC...totally playable. :)

I'd probably focus on being the person in the group who is an open book, completely non-judgmental, and helpful to a fault. Cleric would give you mechanical bonuses on Wisdom and Charisma skills and saves; play those up. You would effectively be mostly a 'one trick pony', because only your Con is superior to others, and there aren't many Con based Skills. You might also be able to get away with the "ditzy, klutzy blond" type of character who's innocence and naivete get the group into certain...uh..."judgmental social situations".

Either way...trying to make a totally competent, heroic PC with these stats is a loosing battle...but making a totally fun, memorable PC with these stats is pretty much being handed to you on a silver plate! Take advantage of it! Run with it and have fun! You don't have to worry about "looking like you suck" to the group...because it's obvious...you do. ;) So that's a HUGE weight off of your shoulders. You can just really "get into" the role-playing of the PC and not worry much at all about the mechanical part of the game.

BECMI: "Barcus Liebentaub. St 4, In 9, Wi 13, Dx 8, Cn 16, Ch 4. Neutral Fighter, Level 12, Master-Level user of the Volgue. Favourite Tactic: Getting swallowed by big monsters and hacking his way out with a dagger. Most known for: Being an absolutely filthy, disgusting, rude individual...that any fellow adventurer would LOVE to have fighting at their side". (NOTE: Stats may not be exactly right...but they're dang close to that)

((A very memorable PC in one of our campaigns that lasted for years; started at level 1, now at level 12 and still going! In short....Stat's don't make a character great; playing them does! :) ))

[Lyracian]

Sadly, this is not a prank, though the humor of it is quite evident. Thanks for the advice, everyone in this thread, and soon we will see the mentally handicapped glamor bard seduce his way through hell!
Glad you found something among the suggestions you like! 3d6 in order can be fun, if that is the sort of game everyone wants to pay.

My choice would have been Hill Dwarf Cleric. Forge, Life of Nature to capitalise on high Con and stomp around in heavy armour.


First off, this stat line would have been an automatic reroll in any edition, I think, even 1e. That said, if you're running with it (as it seems you are) as a challenge/lark, here are some suggestions.
We are playing a classic game using the Moldvay rules. There is a section on page B13 titled "Hopeless Characters" that defines them as a character who is below average in every ability or who has more than one very low (3-6) ability score. The DM may declare the character to be not suited for dangerous adventure, and the player may be allowed to roll up a new character in place of the "hopeless" one.

Str 6 & Int 5 mean this does fall into this category but it is a DM choice and we have a Magic-User with Int 9 (his highest stat) in the party when the player was told they were not hopeless.

In Basic Page B6 also lets you lower scores by 2, to a minimum of 9, to raise your classes prime requisite. Str, Int & Wis are the only ones you can lower. Providing you can get a decent roll in Str or Dex you can use this to pump them up at the expense of your mental stats. You get to turn brain power into muscle power!

[SVamp]

Can't multiclass to Bardbarian--stats are too low. But pure Moon Druid is fine.

Oops. Still I think moon Druid with all levelups into wisdom has the best chance at being a ‘normal’ character. Barkskin kinda sucks when not wild shaped but it’s serviceable. Try to get your DM to let you make an animal based scale armor. For examples/ideas see here: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/31y843/dark_sun_5th_edition_players_handbook_v20/

(Chitin armour, animal scale armour, banded mail made of wood, ironwood, etc)

Otherwise just frenzy Bezerker without regard to exhaustion into oblivion, and buy better dice for the next character :smalltongue:

[MaxWilson]

Oops. Still I think moon Druid with all levelups into wisdom has the best chance at being a ‘normal’ character.

I'd go the opposite way: ignore Wisdom completely and focus on feats that enhance you in other ways, e.g. Resilient (Con), Warcaster to make your concentration saves unstoppable, Lucky for saves, Mobile to extract you from dangerous situations and enable e.g. hit-and-run Contagion attacks in Earth Elemental form, maybe Skulker to make you the ultimate sneak.

[JumboWheat01]

I'd go the opposite way: ignore Wisdom completely and focus on feats that enhance you in other ways, e.g. Resilient (Con), Warcaster to make your concentration saves unstoppable, Lucky for saves, Mobile to extract you from dangerous situations and enable e.g. hit-and-run Contagion attacks in Earth Elemental form, maybe Skulker to make you the ultimate sneak.

Hmm... I never thought of an all feats kind of character. Would be an interesting play on something that didn't rely on personal stats...

[D+1]

If he insists on 3d6 in order, insist that you do this four times, to produce the four characters you would lead into the (in this case literal) funnel. Whomever survives becomes your campaign character.

Because while Crom approves (even if he still laughs at you and kicks you out of Valhalla), Crom also encourages using the Dungeon Crawl Classics approach to actually playing this style.

(In a slightly less snarkish mode, part of the 3d6 down the line is that it is assumed that you will lose several characters before having the modestly adequate stats needed to survive.)Most definitely this last part. As noted previously, 1E DOES NOT include a 3d6-in-order stat generation method. That method was used in PRE-1E versions of the game where having high stats WASN'T ALL THAT BIG OF A DEAL. When you look at 3-booklet OD&D you barely get any bonuses for high stats at all and those you do get are NOT spectacular. The way the game was being played at that time was as a dungeon exploration game that pitted clever players against devious "cheating" DM's where PC's actually wanted to get into as little combat as possible and instead get in, get loot, and get out as quickly and efficiently as they could BECAUSE the game was a meat grinder of PC's. Having a long-lived higher-level PC was as much UTTERLY STAT-IRRELEVANT gameplay and blind luck as anything else.

When 1E came out - which was largely just a lot of house-rules and expansion ideas for OD&D cobbled together - the value of high stats was COMPLETELY different, and that is why Gygax states in the 1E PH that it is best for a PC to have AT LEAST two 15's or better for stats and in the DMG provides methods INTENDED to produce more high-stat characters than straight-3d6 and to do so more reliably, thus avoiding much of the meat-grinder aspects of game play of the original game. As 1E continued on the stat generation methods being officially provided (see Unearthed Arcana) got better and better - even rather obviously TOO good - and there began a fairly evident spiral of stat inflation. It only carried over into 2E - which Gygax had NO creative control over at all - that players wanted or even needed higher stats and wanted/needed them more reliably because characters were NOT disposable anymore like they were in OD&D.

Personally, after much examination of it, my own unshakable conclusion is that rolling combinations of d6's simply would not (and never will) provide the stat generation results as reliably as people wanted. They would not reliably get the two 15's Gygax had suggested were needed without over-inflating probabilities of too many too-high scores in general. Otherwise, if restricted to lower probabilities the PC's would inevitably risk falling back into that meat-grinder, where play would just naturally eat through a lot more characters until they got lucky enough to tuck a few levels under their belts. What 1E ACTUALLY needed was not endless new tweaks to methods of rolling the dice to generate the numbers for stats, but changes to the charts of bonuses that FIT THE PROBABILITIES that ONE given method of rolling would generate. This did not really get solved until 3E.

For a DM to think that 3d6-in-order is actually a reasonable method for any published version of D&D other than those versions PRIOR to 1E, they're just not up to speed. It's a silly move unless what is WANTED is a headlong dive of a stream of PC's into the meat grinder. 5E is ILL-suited to that playstyle and is almost certainly NOT wanted even slightly by the players. To insist on it is just whack.

My advice would be to go back to the DM, try one more time to talk them out of this BAD move. Then, if the player just can't NOT still play even under the, YES, draconian, cruel and capricious 3d6-in-order method then you'd HAVE to accept that your PC's ARE going to be disposable. They aren't being given the stats to be NORMALLY effective in the 5E system and therefore will inevitably die more readily than they otherwise would. Now, some might argue (and I'd likely agree) that 5E is actually easier on PC's than previous editions anyway so the draconian "Iron Man" generation method will have less severe impact than it would in other editions as well. Just don't be too attached to your PC's and be ready with ideas for replacements when your PC most likely dies too young. And be prepared to have to sacrifice running the class of character you wanted in order to salvage a better character in general from the stats you're stuck with.

[MaxWilson]

Most definitely this last part. As noted previously, 1E DOES NOT include a 3d6-in-order stat generation method. That method was used in PRE-1E versions of the game where having high stats WASN'T ALL THAT BIG OF A DEAL. When you look at 3-booklet OD&D you barely get any bonuses for high stats at all and those you do get are NOT spectacular. The way the game was being played at that time was as a dungeon exploration game that pitted clever players against devious "cheating" DM's where PC's actually wanted to get into as little combat as possible and instead get in, get loot, and get out as quickly and efficiently as they could BECAUSE the game was a meat grinder of PC's. Having a long-lived higher-level PC was as much UTTERLY STAT-IRRELEVANT gameplay and blind luck as anything else.

When 1E came out - which was largely just a lot of house-rules and expansion ideas for OD&D cobbled together - the value of high stats was COMPLETELY different, and that is why Gygax states in the 1E PH that it is best for a PC to have AT LEAST two 15's or better for stats and in the DMG provides methods INTENDED to produce more high-stat characters than straight-3d6 and to do so more reliably, thus avoiding much of the meat-grinder aspects of game play of the original game. As 1E continued on the stat generation methods being officially provided (see Unearthed Arcana) got better and better - even rather obviously TOO good - and there began a fairly evident spiral of stat inflation. It only carried over into 2E - which Gygax had NO creative control over at all - that players wanted or even needed higher stats and wanted/needed them more reliably because characters were NOT disposable anymore like they were in OD&D.

Ironically though, 2nd Edition does use the brutal 3d6-in-order method as #1 suggested stat method, though I don't know if it's actually #1 in practice. I certainly didn't use it as a kid, although nowadays I totally would.

Overview of stat rolling in various D&D editions: http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp/dnd/stat_generation.htm


Personally, after much examination of it, my own unshakable conclusion is that rolling combinations of d6's simply would not (and never will) provide the stat generation results as reliably as people wanted. They would not reliably get the two 15's Gygax had suggested were needed without over-inflating probabilities of too many too-high scores in general. Otherwise, if restricted to lower probabilities the PC's would inevitably risk falling back into that meat-grinder, where play would just naturally eat through a lot more characters until they got lucky enough to tuck a few levels under their belts. What 1E ACTUALLY needed was not endless new tweaks to methods of rolling the dice to generate the numbers for stats, but changes to the charts of bonuses that FIT THE PROBABILITIES that ONE given method of rolling would generate. This did not really get solved until 3E.

For a DM to think that 3d6-in-order is actually a reasonable method for any published version of D&D other than those versions PRIOR to 1E, they're just not up to speed. It's a silly move unless what is WANTED is a headlong dive of a stream of PC's into the meat grinder. 5E is ILL-suited to that playstyle and is almost certainly NOT wanted even slightly by the players. To insist on it is just whack.

Emphasis mine.

I agree with your diagnosis that changes to the charts alleivate the problem, but it casts doubt on the next paragraph: because 5E has already changed the bonuses for stats to be less sharply-curved at the high end and more generous in the middle and low end, 3d6 is less painful in 5E than in AD&D. 3d6-in-order arguably works better in 5E than in pre-1E or AD&D. In fact, making low stats characters still fun and playable is one of the things that 5E does best!

I don't think I could have much fun with a hypothetical character with Str 4 Dex 4 Con 4 Int 9 Wis 7 Cha 6 in AD&D until at least 7th level, but I could totally have fun with that character in 5E from level 1 upwards.