The Mind-Affecting Descriptor

[Pippin]

A lot of spells have the Mind-Affecting descriptor. Many creatures are immune to it, many characters are or become immune to it as well. This shuts down most of the Enchantment school. Is that "right"? If not, what isn't right? The fact that too many spells have the descriptor? The fact that too many creatures/characters are/become immune to it? The fact that Enchantment spells are too powerful on a failed saving throw? If you were working at D&D, would you change anything?

[Biggus]

A lot of spells have the Mind-Affecting descriptor. Many creatures are immune to it, many characters are or become immune to it as well. This shuts down most of the Enchantment school. Is that "right"? If not, what isn't right? The fact that too many spells have the descriptor? The fact that too many creatures/characters are/become immune to it? The fact that Enchantment spells are too powerful on a failed saving throw? If you were working at D&D, would you change anything?

Personally I make most immunities give a large bonus rather than total immunity. There are several other examples like this, such as Heavy Fortification making Rogues basically useless in combat, where a single ability can shut down an entire character type. It's not generally so bad at low to middle levels, but at high levels it happens a lot, and at epic levels it's even worse.

In this specific example, in my games creatures which are mindless retain complete immunity to mind-affecting effects because they don't have a mind to affect, pretty much everyone else just gets a big bonus.

[Thunder999]

Just part of the game, like how constructs and undead are immune to anything with a fort save (that doesn't also work on objects, so 90% of stuff with a fort save). There's also death effects, negative energy and energy drain which are expected immunities at high level (generally via magic items that grant permanent death ward to PCs). Many many monsters have constant true sight which is basically immunity to most of the illusion school (Players tend to just occasionally cast the spell or rely on limit uses/day items, because it's very expensive to have constant). And there's blindsight, lifesight etc. which are effectively immunity to the hide skill. Lots of stuff is immune to poison, Adecent chunk of monsters are immune to at least one energy type. Then we have magic immunity.

[the_tick_rules]

The tricky part is there are a ton of things that if you don't pass a will save you behave oddly that don't specifically contain this is a mind affecting ability or say as if by a X spell when X is a mind affecting spell. Then you just have to say well maybe?

[Pippin]

Thanks for your input. Do you think that revising Mind Blank as "this spell doesn't block effects whose CL is greater than your own", or revising True Seeing as "this spell doesn't pierce effects whose CL is greater than your own", would bring more balance or chaos to the table?

[Troacctid]

I don't think it's necessary. I think it's fine for this to be a weakness of enchantments. It gives specialists a reason to cover their bases.

[Pippin]

I don't think it's necessary. I think it's fine for this to be a weakness of enchantments. It gives specialists a reason to cover their bases.
What do you mean?

Also I would have thought that True Seeing trumping most Illusion spells was bad design.

[Aotrs Commander]

A lot of spells have the Mind-Affecting descriptor. Many creatures are immune to it, many characters are or become immune to it as well. This shuts down most of the Enchantment school. Is that "right"? If not, what isn't right? The fact that too many spells have the descriptor? The fact that too many creatures/characters are/become immune to it? The fact that Enchantment spells are too powerful on a failed saving throw? If you were working at D&D, would you change anything?

If everything works on everything, it means no-one ever has to change tactics. Sometimes, you should have a monter that a given character class can't use their primary abilities on.


(I, at this, point, am working on the basis I have fundementally compiled what is functionally an edition (a hybrid of PF/3.5) and I did not change that.)



Besides, as both player and DM, I've never been fond of a lot of enchantment anyway (especially Charm and Dominate), since you're frequently taking the player's control away from them (and at worst, making them do PvP), so I'm content that there are plenty of easily-available hard-counters floating around (I mean, Protecrtion from Evil, for a start) if the players have some preparation; so it won't work more than once as an occasional surprise ON the PCs and you as DM don't have to deal with it EVERY fight FROM the PCs. (Because loosing control of the monsters is no less unfun for the DM as if it for the players, at least in my opinion.)

If I was going to do anything at all (I'm not, but if I did), I'd sooner consider taking out Charm and Dominate effects entirely than removing immunity (or extreme, like +10/20 resistance) to mind-affecting effects,

[Psyren]

Pathfinder has various metamagics to overcome these weaknesses, like Coaxing Spell (vermins and oozes), Threnodic Spell (undead), and Verdant Spell (plants). In addition, Mind Blank is now a big bonus instead of immunity, and Protection of Evil only grants a chance to suppress an existing control effect instead of being automatic. This is my preferred approach because it requires the enchanter to expend resources, much like a blaster or conjurer or illusionist would want to.

[ShurikVch]

A lot of spells have the Mind-Affecting descriptor. Many creatures are immune to it, many characters are or become immune to it as well. This shuts down most of the Enchantment school. Is that "right"?Supposed way to deal with such "immune" enemies is to swarm them with horde of your dominated thralls (buffed by moral-boosting Enchantments)
Also, Song of the Dead [metamagic] feat allow to use Mind-Affecting spells on intelligent Undead



Then we have magic immunity.Which was nerfed into infinite SR

Lots of stuff is immune to poisonMolydeus venom and Epic Poisons (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20021110a) could bypass some of those immunities (although Constructs and Undead are still untouched)

And there's blindsight, lifesight etc. which are effectively immunity to the hide skill.On the contrary: successful Hide check renders the character immune to "blindsight, lifesight etc." (presuming the Darkstalker feat)

Many many monsters have constant true sight which is basically immunity to most of the illusion school1) True Seeing range is only 120' - stay out of it, and you wouldn't be affected
2) It's called "True Seeing", not "True Sensing" - illusory sounds, smells, etc. are still working at 100%
3) Shadow illusions are staying effective despite the True Seeing (even without the cheesing for extra-reality)

[NotASpiderSwarm]

On the contrary: successful Hide check renders the character immune to "blindsight, lifesight etc." (presuming the Darkstalker feat)Nope. Darkstalker grants immunity to Scent, Blindsight, Blindsense, and Tremorsense. Other vision modes(Lifesight, Mindsight, and Touchsight) are still able to detect a Darkstalker rogue.

[AvatarVecna]

Some immunities are best represented by a big bonus (which can be gotten around by outpowering the person your strategy is inherently weak against, ala Pikachu vs Onyx), while some are best represented by absolute failure (since they represent not an infinite defense, but a lack of something to interact with, and can maybe be bypassed by sinking specific resources into making it a contest). If everything that's currently an immunity was instead just a really big bonus, it'd have to get absurdly big in some cases in order to not break suspension of disbelief.

Should you be able to Charm Monster an intelligent plant creature? I don't see why not, they've got minds, even if they work super-differently. Should you be able to charm a corpse wandering around under it's own power? Maybe, a lich's mind is still in there, even if its brain might not be; depends how you think Charm Monster works. Should you be able to charm a corpse being piloted by the magic of somebody who's not even here? Not unless the controller is in range, this is just an inanimate object being puppeted; maybe if you took a feat that let you use enchantment magic to ursurp control of the animating magic...

Should a red dragon be immune to lava? Maybe you think so, maybe you don't. What about a fire elemental?

[ShurikVch]

Nope. Darkstalker grants immunity to Scent, Blindsight, Blindsense, and Tremorsense. Other vision modes(Lifesight, Mindsight, and Touchsight) are still able to detect a Darkstalker rogue.You're right
But...
Touchsigh (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm) is psionic power - AFAIK, no monster using it constantly;
Mindsight is limited by radius of telepathy (which is 100' most of the time), and required line of effect;
and Lifesense, apparently, can be foiled by a clothes: Lifesense is explicitly neither able to pierce nonliving matter, no says to be able to ignore armor or clothes

[Psyren]

You're right
But...
Touchsigh (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm) is psionic power - AFAIK, no monster using it constantly;
Mindsight is limited by radius of telepathy (which is 100' most of the time), and required line of effect;
and Lifesense, apparently, can be foiled by a clothes: Lifesense is explicitly neither able to pierce nonliving matter, no says to be able to ignore armor or clothes

Unless your clothing is a lead-lined beekeeper outfit, I don't think it'll keep out lifesense

[Aotrs Commander]

Some immunities are best represented by a big bonus (which can be gotten around by outpowering the person your strategy is inherently weak against, ala Pikachu vs Onyx), while some are best represented by absolute failure (since they represent not an infinite defense, but a lack of something to interact with, and can maybe be bypassed by sinking specific resources into making it a contest). If everything that's currently an immunity was instead just a really big bonus, it'd have to get absurdly big in some cases in order to not break suspension of disbelief.

Should you be able to Charm Monster an intelligent plant creature? I don't see why not, they've got minds, even if they work super-differently. Should you be able to charm a corpse wandering around under it's own power? Maybe, a lich's mind is still in there, even if its brain might not be; depends how you think Charm Monster works. Should you be able to charm a corpse being piloted by the magic of somebody who's not even here? Not unless the controller is in range, this is just an inanimate object being puppeted; maybe if you took a feat that let you use enchantment magic to ursurp control of the animating magic...

Should a red dragon be immune to lava? Maybe you think so, maybe you don't. What about a fire elemental?

My tacit take on this is pretty much the same as for stuff like "infinite" sizes; these are values that are "sufficiently large" as to be functionally infinite to the observer (i.e. the participant creatures in D&D).

If an "infinite" plane is, say something "only" approaching half a light year (so really, little more than a radius around a solar system), it would take a creature travelling at 500 miles per hour constantly 671 THOUSAND years to reach the edge. Given most campaign worlds only stretch back some tens of thousands of years (before fading into uncounted years), it is entirely feasible that creatures capable of comprehending distance simply haven't existed long enough to find the "edge." (Heck, half a light year is still probably excessive!)

I take a tacitly simlar approach to immunity. If "immunity" is really Resistance 2000 (or 5000 or 10000 or 200 million), it is looks like blanket immunity to all practical purposes in a normal game (and only the wildest Theorhetical Optimisation exercises might be able to breach it).

But I hold the tacit possiblity, that, for example, at high enough levels of energy output, nothing is immune and you could, if you hit it with "enough" electricity, kill a lightning elemental. But where "enough" starts at the level of "capital scale starship weapons of the sort that glasses planets" and goes up.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

My tacit take on this is pretty much the same as for stuff like "infinite" sizes; these are values that are "sufficiently large" as to be functionally infinite to the observer (i.e. the participant creatures in D&D).

If an "infinite" plane is, say something "only" approaching half a light year (so really, little more than a radius around a solar system), it would take a creature travelling at 500 miles per hour constantly 671 THOUSAND years to reach the edge. Given most campaign worlds only stretch back some tens of thousands of years (before fading into uncounted years), it is entirely feasible that creatures capable of comprehending distance simply haven't existed long enough to find the "edge." (Heck, half a light year is still probably excessive!)

<tangent>
Technically, something like greater teleport renders speed irrelevant at those scales; you just say "I wanna teleport two and a half umpty-jillion miles thataway" and poof, there you are. But yeah, you can't teleport "infinity miles thataway" so there's still at least some amount of physical travel involved.

I personally square that particular circle by saying that the planes are conceptually infinite, not physically infinite, kind of like a procedurally-generated computer game world. If you're in the Outlands, you can walk past the Gate Towns into the Hinterlands and keep walking for years or millennia or eons and you'll never hit the "edge" of the Outlands and will keep running into lots of new and interesting landmarks, but there's good evidence that the intervening distance you walked wasn't physically there until you walked that path and stops being there once you're sufficiently far away...and no matter how far you've walked, if you turn around you'll find that the path back to the Gate Towns is different from the path outward and that you're never more than 320 miles out regardless of how long you were walking.

That's the only planar region that explicitly canonically works that way, but all the other Outer Planes are made of the same belief-stuff that the Outlands are, the Deep regions of the Transitive Planes explicitly have the same physics-is-optional relationship with space and distance that the Hinterlands do, and the Inner Planes being finite with distinct borders in certain directions and infinite in other directions matches the way the Outer Planes around the Wheel work, so it makes sense to me that that's how "infinite" planes would work in general.
</tangent>


I take a tacitly simlar approach to immunity. If "immunity" is really Resistance 2000 (or 5000 or 10000 or 200 million), it is looks like blanket immunity to all practical purposes in a normal game (and only the wildest Theorhetical Optimisation exercises might be able to breach it).

But I hold the tacit possiblity, that, for example, at high enough levels of energy output, nothing is immune and you could, if you hit it with "enough" electricity, kill a lightning elemental. But where "enough" starts at the level of "capital scale starship weapons of the sort that glasses planets" and goes up.

For things like energy resistance that can be expressed purely numerically, making things proportional rather than flat handles this nicely. Like, say, if Resistance X is "subtract X damage from every die of damage dealt" then Fire Resistance 1 is a little bit of fire resistance, Fire Resistance 3 cuts a fireball's damage in half on average, and Fire Resistance 6 lets you ignore an infinite number of d6s of fire damage, making it "immunity" for all practical purposes if all fire spells deal damage in d6s...but a metamagicked fire spell, or lava, or the sun, or whatever you want your hot-enough-to-penetrate-effective-immunity benchmark to be, can deal damage in [d6+1]s or d8s or d20s or whatever to be "enough" fire to get through it.

It's hard to represent this for non-numerical effects--what does "half a charm monster" or "two-thirds of a suggestion" mean, exactly?--and save bonuses are a bad approach because either you leave natural 1s alone so "immunity" = "95% change to resist" or you have an immunity-granting effect negate auto-fails and turn it into flat immunity again. The only good solution I've ever come up with is to use a bunch of condition tracks so that reducing a given mind-affecting effect by some degree has a defined meaning, but that's a whole lot of extra complexity for not much benefit.

[Aotrs Commander]

<tangent>
Technically, something like greater teleport renders speed irrelevant at those scales; you just say "I wanna teleport two and a half umpty-jillion miles thataway" and poof, there you are. But yeah, you can't teleport "infinity miles thataway" so there's still at least some amount of physical travel involved.

Not if you have already updated Greater Teleport to read, essentially, "hahahahahahahaha, you think one spell is better than all of scifi FTL ever, hahahahahahaha, not a chance, mate." (I mean, even Pathfinder did that to some extent by having Interplanetary Teleport.)


I personally square that particular circle by saying that the planes are conceptually infinite, not physically infinite, kind of like a procedurally-generated computer game world. If you're in the Outlands, you can walk past the Gate Towns into the Hinterlands and keep walking for years or millennia or eons and you'll never hit the "edge" of the Outlands and will keep running into lots of new and interesting landmarks, but there's good evidence that the intervening distance you walked wasn't physically there until you walked that path and stops being there once you're sufficiently far away...and no matter how far you've walked, if you turn around you'll find that the path back to the Gate Towns is different from the path outward and that you're never more than 320 miles out regardless of how long you were walking.

But again, your time scale for you to be able to exceed a massively finite plane is such that from the point of view of basically any character in a game, it's a difference that is imperceptable.

Let's put it this way - not even every single adventure concurrently set of every world's location that every roleplayer has ever played a game of would cover more than the tinest fraction of a plane even, say, ten AU in diameter (a bit beyond Saturn, for those of you counting). (That's the surface area of 3.46 BILLION Earths, which is, I feel more fantasy planets than have ever existed in the entire of media, including homebrew.)

I intensely dislike throwing around concepts like "infinite" when is is usually very clear its being used because the writer wants to sound impressive, rather than from any true udnerstanding of scale. Me? I'm an engineer, I DO have a concept of size; and "infinite" is not necessary.

(Nor do I treat ANYTHING I play, wargames or roleplaying, as a closed system, it's all in the same universe or at least multiverse.)




It's hard to represent this for non-numerical effects--what does "half a charm monster" or "two-thirds of a suggestion" mean, exactly?--and save bonuses are a bad approach because either you leave natural 1s alone so "immunity" = "95% change to resist" or you have an immunity-granting effect negate auto-fails and turn it into flat immunity again. The only good solution I've ever come up with is to use a bunch of condition tracks so that reducing a given mind-affecting effect by some degree has a defined meaning, but that's a whole lot of extra complexity for not much benefit.

If it were to be ever necessary to deal with mechanically (and at the point it is, the PCs have screwed up so badly that TPK is inevitable and the players so badly DM is on a power trip) I would represent it simply as something "if 20+ your save modifier is not with (20/50/100/20000) oif the save DC, 20 is not an automatic pass."

[AvatarVecna]

Not if you have already updated Greater Teleport to read, essentially, "hahahahahahahaha, you think one spell is better than all of scifi FTL ever, hahahahahahaha, not a chance, mate." (I mean, even Pathfinder did that to some extent by having Interplanetary Teleport.)

https://i.imgur.com/G1F1ECN.png


If it were to be ever necessary to deal with mechanically (and at the point it is, the PCs have screwed up so badly that TPK is inevitable and the players so badly DM is on a power trip) I would represent it simply as something "if 20+ your save modifier is not with (20/50/100/20000) oif the save DC, 20 is not an automatic pass."

ELH has a sorta-solution to this issue, where Nat 1/Nat 20 is "reroll with -/+ 20 to the roll", repeating every time you roll a 20. It leaves it in the hands of the dice, and means player bonus still has an impact, but even a couple iterations puts the odds so low that they're versimilitudinous again.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

But again, your time scale for you to be able to exceed a massively finite plane is such that from the point of view of basically any character in a game, it's a difference that is imperceptable.

Let's put it this way - not even every single adventure concurrently set of every world's location that every roleplayer has ever played a game of would cover more than the tinest fraction of a plane even, say, ten AU in diameter (a bit beyond Saturn, for those of you counting). (That's the surface area of 3.46 BILLION Earths, which is, I feel more fantasy planets than have ever existed in the entire of media, including homebrew.)

I intensely dislike throwing around concepts like "infinite" when is is usually very clear its being used because the writer wants to sound impressive, rather than from any true udnerstanding of scale. Me? I'm an engineer, I DO have a concept of size; and "infinite" is not necessary.

"Infinite" in Planescape isn't a matter of the writers not understanding scale (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScifiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale) (at least not for the original creators, no idea about the later module writers), it's a deliberate aesthetic choice to indicate that the planes don't work on Material Plane physics as we know them.

The Spire in the Outlands has infinite height, and Sigil is on top of it. The Abyss has infinite layers, but also exactly 666 layers, because entire infinite expanses of reality get swapped out when no one is looking. The Astral Plane has no spatial dimensions and physical time does not pass there, and greater teleport can cross any distance in zero time because it's moving you into and then out of a spaceless timeless reality. Deep Shadow is an infinite dimensionless expanse made up of shadows cast by things that don't actually exist.

Changing up the planes to be merely "really really frikkin' huge" or having them be planet-sized spheres in a physical ring as depicted on maps of the Wheel or whatever would be great for Spelljammer (and "Planejammer" campaigns that take Planescape locations, monsters, factions, etc. and Spelljammer-ify them by making the Great Wheel into a galaxy, planes into planets, exemplar races into alien species, etc. can be quite fun), but doing it for Planescape itself is imposing Material physics on imMaterial planes in a way that defeats the whole purpose of the thing.

[rel]

A lot of spells have the Mind-Affecting descriptor. Many creatures are immune to it, many characters are or become immune to it as well. This shuts down most of the Enchantment school. Is that "right"? If not, what isn't right? The fact that too many spells have the descriptor? The fact that too many creatures/characters are/become immune to it? The fact that Enchantment spells are too powerful on a failed saving throw? If you were working at D&D, would you change anything?

It is how 3.x works in general; Extremely powerful effects and blanket immunities to those effects.

Mind affecting is a common immunity making enchantment a relatively weak school of magic although enchantment specialised classes and builds like the beguiler are still perfectly serviceable and fun to play in my experience.

Changing the effect / immunity dynamic of 3.x is non-trivial and goes beyond the amount of house ruling effort most people are happy putting in. Also you risk making mistakes when changing things up and introducing new problems.

A relatively easy fix is to remove some of the sources of mind affecting immunity which improves the power of enchantment builds somewhat.
My main consideration when making such a change is; Enchantment, like illusion, requires some heavy lifting from the GM in terms of adjudication. It can also fundamentally change the play experience from 'PC's fight monsters' to 'PC's trick monsters'.
Make sure you are aware of and actually want both of these changes before implementing any rule changes.

[Miss Disaster]

In the 3PP world (amongst the quality 3PP publishers, that is), I've found a number of interesting game mechanics that provide class features, feats, spells, initiating maneuvers, etc .... that provide the benefit of temporary or conditional workarounds to the Mind-Affecting descriptor. You don't see it as much from Paizo (Pathfinder) or WotC (3.5), but there are a few.

[Rebel7284]

Dungeons and Dragons in second edition had a ton of "this can only be countered by this" effects and the game has been relaxing those over time. 3.0 still had High DR overcome by +1/+2/+3 weapons, which 3.5 got rid of. I think it's a change of culture and attitude. It used to be "if you're not prepared, you are very likely to utterly and completely fail" which then shifted "if you try hard and believe in yourself, you can do the thing!" I think a good balance needs to exist where you need to change your tactics for different challenges, but don't necessarily need to be perfectly prepared with a silver bullet for every encounter. Epic level D&D in my opinion is closer to 2nd edition with immunity upon immunity on both sides all the time. Regular low to mid-level 3.5 is much more forgiving, but still WAY more "silver bullety" than modern video games.

Edit: about mind control effects in general, I think those tend to be VERY swingy by their very nature, and I don't mind those in particular becoming more difficult to use the game goes on.

[Aotrs Commander]

"Infinite" in Planescape isn't a matter of the writers not understanding scale (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScifiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale) (at least not for the original creators, no idea about the later module writers), it's a deliberate aesthetic choice to indicate that the planes don't work on Material Plane physics as we know them.

The Spire in the Outlands has infinite height, and Sigil is on top of it. The Abyss has infinite layers, but also exactly 666 layers, because entire infinite expanses of reality get swapped out when no one is looking. The Astral Plane has no spatial dimensions and physical time does not pass there, and greater teleport can cross any distance in zero time because it's moving you into and then out of a spaceless timeless reality. Deep Shadow is an infinite dimensionless expanse made up of shadows cast by things that don't actually exist.

Changing up the planes to be merely "really really frikkin' huge" or having them be planet-sized spheres in a physical ring as depicted on maps of the Wheel or whatever would be great for Spelljammer (and "Planejammer" campaigns that take Planescape locations, monsters, factions, etc. and Spelljammer-ify them by making the Great Wheel into a galaxy, planes into planets, exemplar races into alien species, etc. can be quite fun), but doing it for Planescape itself is imposing Material physics on imMaterial planes in a way that defeats the whole purpose of the thing.

I dislike the entire Great Wheel cosmology on principle precisely BECAUSE of all that (though not nearly as much as I loathe Spelljammer conceptually) to start with and never use it for choice1. I find it - perhaps ironicially - REDUCTIVE and to actively detract from the scale and wonder of the universe.

I, fundementally, by mindset if not actual profession, an engineer. I want to know, in great detail, how stuff works; so a setting that basically functions on "ssh! Don't Maths the Setting, it doesn't work like that!" leaves me cold (as as a Lich that is immune2, that's quite an achivement.) (One might make the observation Planescape specifically is a bit a of philosphical sort of setting, which perhaps explains why I don't have any truck with it, since I and philosophy generally are on barely-civil terms at the best of times.)

(The only thing the Great Wheel cosmology has produced I actively liked was Planecape: Torment itself. I have never, though, had any desire to play there, even considering PS:T rates as one of my top three games of all time. PS:T is a perfect storm whose total exceeds that of its parts.)



(I'll be brutally honest - I have never thought much of D&D's own setting-lore generally; the 3.5 Ravenloft player's guide remains the only bit of entire world-building D&D/AD&D/3.0/3.5/4E/5E has ever done officially (and tHAT was 3rd party) that I've read more than once or twice and for the sake of entertainment; and I bought that only because I was planning a section of a game (the afore-footnoted-one) that reached into it. I have never used a single official D&D setting because I actually wanted to play there; at best it was because the thing I was running (in the absense of me having the time to write something 100% myself) was set there. Golarion remains the only D&D-adjacent campaign world that I have bought stuff for and read solely for fun (and even the stuff I bought for Rolemaster for Middle-Earth was because I did plan to run there one day) - and that? Started the moment I discovered that Golarion had PLANETS and an honest-to-Evilness solar system.)



(I do note at this point we're kind of hard-left-veering off-topic - thanks to me again - though.)



1In the period (early 3.5) between me no longer being able to completely write my own campaigns and advanture paths being a thing, I was converting AD&D modules and essentially there I was piercing together campaign from the Vecna stuff. That was the last time I used the Great Wheel and moved on from the (homebrew) camapign world that stuff was tied to (the hoops I jumped through to get the PCs off that world to where Vecna was...). After that, I used my homebrew for anything I right myself (where not just D&D's entire cosmology, but also its monster manual, the number from the magic item christmas tree and even Vancian casting got summarily tossed over my shoulder) and Golarion for weekly games (after the last incident it happened, in future for emergancy back-up parties whewre the DM who was supposed to be running a day quest has to cancel.)

2I.e. extraordinarily resistant...

[ShurikVch]

Unless your clothing is a lead-lined beekeeper outfit, I don't think it'll keep out lifesenseAnd why not?
Also:
This life-light behaves like regular light--you can't see into solid objects, or past solid walls.I don't think "regular light" able to illuminate through sufficiently dense fabric
Also, it said "solid"?
https://cs11.pikabu.ru/images/previews_comm/2018-06_5/1529562587149939947.jpg
... Snake! :smallbiggrin:



Not if you have already updated Greater Teleport to read, essentially, "hahahahahahahaha, you think one spell is better than all of scifi FTL ever, hahahahahahaha, not a chance, mate."Saying that you're essentially admitting: "I have no freaking idea what the heck teleportation really is."
Teleportation isn't a movement at all - you just disappearing at one place, than appear at the destination point; it's not a movement because you're just don't exist anywhere between the start and destination - so measuring the speed there is just wrong.
Still, among the scifi, teleportation idea is fairly well-used
And if you think Greater Teleport "is better than all of scifi" teleports, then check the One Step from Earth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Step_from_Earth) - at the very least, range-by-range they're equal...



Golarion remains the only D&D-adjacent campaign world that I have bought stuff for and read solely for fun (and even the stuff I bought for Rolemaster for Middle-Earth was because I did plan to run there one day) - and that? Started the moment I discovered that Golarion had PLANETS and an honest-to-Evilness solar system.)Oh, come on!
The Great Wheel have planets and stars (our Earth is one of the Great Wheel worlds for crying out loud!)

[Psyren]

And why not?
Also:I don't think "regular light" able to illuminate through sufficiently dense fabric
Also, it said "solid"?

Because regular clothing doesn't cover every inch of your flesh. It doesn't block line of effect from anything else, why this?

[Saint-Just]

Oh, come on!
The Great Wheel have planets and stars (our Earth is one of the Great Wheel worlds for crying out loud!)

I take issue with that! The Great Wheel does have planets and stars but Earth is not one of them. Given that Oerth is on the Great Wheel other parallels (Earth, Aerth, Yarth, Uerth) aren't. Should probably still be accessible by the Plane of Shadow but isn't on the Great Wheel.

[ShurikVch]

Because regular clothing doesn't cover every inch of your flesh. It doesn't block line of effect from anything else, why this?Ahem...
Even thick clothing, as long as it covers the body completely, can protect an undead creature from the dangers of sunlight.
But even more interesting example:
Bodysuit, Black: This very tight-fitting garment is made of black silk. It is used by rogues and infiltrators when sneaking around at night. Wearing the suit grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Hide checks in conditions dark enough to grant one-half concealment or better. However, the bodysuit provides no benefit if you wear other clothing or armor, other than belts, pouches, or bandoleers, on top of it.Other examples of such covering clothes are Hydration Suit (Sandstorm), kaorti Resin Suit, and illithid's Dampsuit



I take issue with that! The Great Wheel does have planets and stars but Earth is not one of them. Given that Oerth is on the Great Wheel other parallels (Earth, Aerth, Yarth, Uerth) aren't. Should probably still be accessible by the Plane of Shadow but isn't on the Great Wheel.Every parallel world have its own Great Wheel (only the Plane of Shadow is one and the same for the all parallel worlds)

[Saint-Just]

Every parallel world have its own Great Wheel (only the Plane of Shadow is one and the same for the all parallel worlds)

Not necessary. In fact only one Great Wheel has been positively attested. Eberron uses Orrery, FR uses Tree (and yes, if you try really hard you can fit them within the Great Wheel, but in that case you're fitting them to the One Great Wheel, not into separate cosmologies). I do not think that any source ever mentioned second Great Wheel.

[ShurikVch]

Not necessary. In fact only one Great Wheel has been positively attested.Even if (and it's big "IF") it wasn't, it still logically obvious: parallel worlds are connected only by the Plane of Shadow - no other way to travel from one to another; but even in the parallel worlds, fire still burning, positive energy still healing (unless you're Undead), people still dying and going to an afterlife
Thus, they still have the whole set of Planes (Air/Earth/Fire/Water-Negative/Positive-Astral/Ethereal-Outer planes)
If so, then why they shouldn't be arranged into the Great Wheel?


Eberron uses OrreryEberron was never mentioned to have any connections with any Planescape world, so mentioning it is a mistake


FR uses TreeOnly in 3E - before, it was the very same Great Wheel (say, Auril's realm was in Pandemonium, and Azuth's - in Arcadia)

[Psyren]

Ahem...
But even more interesting example:Other examples of such covering clothes are Hydration Suit (Sandstorm), kaorti Resin Suit, and illithid's Dampsuit

Yes, those would be the "beekeeper" analogue I was referring to, i.e. specialized clothing rather than a regular tunic and breeches. So thanks for supporting my point.

[Saint-Just]

Even if (and it's big "IF") it wasn't, it still logically obvious: parallel worlds are connected only by the Plane of Shadow - no other way to travel from one to another; but even in the parallel worlds, fire still burning, positive energy still healing (unless you're Undead), people still dying and going to an afterlife
Thus, they still have the whole set of Planes (Air/Earth/Fire/Water-Negative/Positive-Astral/Ethereal-Outer planes)
If so, then why they shouldn't be arranged into the Great Wheel?

Eberron was never mentioned to have any connections with any Planescape world, so mentioning it is a mistake


Eberron have those qualities (fire burning etc. etc.) and does not have "the whole set of Planes", so they are not necessary. In any case - what about Manual of the Planes? Everything about the parallel cosmologies is speculation (i.e. it gives a toolbox to DM, and not a published setting) but it does talk about different cosmologies having more planes, less planes, combining planes, dismissing with distinction between Outer and Inner and so on. It has illustration how Shadow connects different Primes and it demonstrates Great Wheel, the freshly-speculated-about Omniverse to the right and something not really clear (some variant of the Tree?) to the left. What it does not mention even as a speculation is a second Great Wheel (I am not saying it is impossible, I am saying there is no evidence it exists). Planescape was about connecting many (but even in 2e not all) settings via one Great Wheel (and then adding plenty of original weirdness on top of that). It did not posit that the Great Wheel necessary exists in alternative cosmologies.



Only in 3E - before, it was the very same Great Wheel (say, Auril's realm was in Pandemonium, and Azuth's - in Arcadia)
First of all we're in the 3e section. But more importantly actual people who use FR usu usually either retain the Tree (and have it as alternative cosmology) or put it into One Great Wheel.

[Fizban]

If you were working at D&D, would you change anything?
Don't have to work there to change things- and the main problem is that WotC was (and I'm pretty sure still is) operating under a "no takebacks" rule, particularly with regards to the core books. Spell Compendium nerfed a bunch of spells (and jacked up as many or more others), but can't touch the core spells, nope.

The best solution I see for the problem of continuous open ended control vs blanket immunity, is to not have spells that allow open ended control (or not until very high levels). Seriously, you can make someone your "friend" with a 1st level spell, with almost no definition of what that even means, and you only have to wait until 2nd/3rd to just give any order you want as long as you can phrase it "reasonably," again with no real definition.

So, don't do that. It's funny how when you look at splatbook enchantments from almost any publisher, WotC included, they're almost always narrower, shorter in duration, and higher level than the PHB spells. Even though they're usually quite powerful effects, who cares? Charm/Suggest/Dominate already does literally everything. But if you get rid or massively increase the level of the open ended spells, you can write a whole buffet of worthwhile individual compulsions instead, spells which make people do specific things, are easy to adjudicate, and don't drag the game to a halt.

Once you've got an Enchantment/[mind affecting] system that isn't just instant win starting at 1st level, you can ease up on the immunities. Though really, once you get rid of continuous open ended control at low levels, the fact that certain low level spells stop mental control doesn't seem nearly so huge, and you can set up a tiered system where Protection/Magic Circle doesn't stop everything, but a dedicated immunity spell does (at 4th level with the others, Mind Blank's big tech is divination immunity, not mind control, and an 8th level spell ought to be powerful enough to block an entire shtick, yes). Monster types can still have blanket immunity because that's how monsters work.

As for whether I've done that- 's a lotta work for a type of magic I'd rather just throw a fisheye at. But I do have a 1st level spell to compel answering a question, and a 3rd level for suppressing a memory (adapted from 3rd party books), which I think could go a long way to ameliorating some of the only reasons a good-guy party should need any compulsions: prisoner info and covering your tracks. If people are trying to cast Charm Person solely to get info out of prisoners they shouldn't have taken in the first place, just give them a 1st level spell that gets answers. If they want to jedi mind trick their way past a guard or keep a witness from reporting without disappearing, give them a spell that does that, instead of one that makes people do literally anything they command.

[ShurikVch]

If an "infinite" plane is, say something "only" approaching half a light year (so really, little more than a radius around a solar system), it would take a creature travelling at 500 miles per hour constantly 671 THOUSAND years to reach the edge. Given most campaign worlds only stretch back some tens of thousands of years (before fading into uncounted years), it is entirely feasible that creatures capable of comprehending distance simply haven't existed long enough to find the "edge." (Heck, half a light year is still probably excessive!)This reminded me about the D&D Immortals Rules (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_Immortals_Rules):
these outer planes range from mono-spatial atto-planes (about 1/3" big) to penta-spatial tera-planes (about 851 billion light-years big)



Yes, those would be the "beekeeper" analogue I was referring to, i.e. specialized clothing rather than a regular tunic and breeches. So thanks for supporting my point.Let me remind you:
You said: "Unless your clothing is a lead-lined beekeeper outfit, I don't think it'll keep out lifesense"
I answered: "And why not?"
You replied: "Because regular clothing doesn't cover every inch of your flesh. It doesn't block line of effect from anything else, why this?"
My conlusion from your words was: "Lolnope, clothes can't block anything - never ever forever!.."
If you meant something else - you wasn't clear enough about it
So, do you agree stealth specialist equipped with sufficient suit would foil Lifesense just fine (as long as they don't fail their Hide checks)?



Eberron have those qualities (fire burning etc. etc.) and does not have "the whole set of Planes", so they are not necessary.Once again: bad example is bad
Eberron was never demonstrated any connections to a "more mainstream" D&D worlds
Heck, local elves are never heard the name of Corellon Larethian (for crying out loud!)
With the same level of arguments you may try to state the Great Wheel isn't default because Warcraft don't have it


In any case - what about Manual of the Planes? Everything about the parallel cosmologies is speculation (i.e. it gives a toolbox to DM, and not a published setting) but it does talk about different cosmologies having more planes, less planes, combining planes, dismissing with distinction between Outer and Inner and so on. It has illustration how Shadow connects different Primes and it demonstrates Great Wheel, the freshly-speculated-about Omniverse to the right and something not really clear (some variant of the Tree?) to the left. What it does not mention even as a speculation is a second Great Wheel (I am not saying it is impossible, I am saying there is no evidence it exists).Earlier, you mentioned the "other parallels (Earth, Aerth, Yarth, Uerth)"; since they are predating 3E Manual of the Planes, how the heck anything about them could be proved or disproved by the 3E Manual of the Planes?

If you would look into the 1E Manual of the Planes - it said completely different story: not just the Plane of Shadow, but all other planes are exist in singular number, thus - only Prime Material Plane can have parallels.
I. e. - you would be right and wrong in the same time:
Right - other Prime Material Planes aren't connected to a separate parallel Great Wheels;
Wrong - they're still connected to the very same Great Wheel as the "default" Prime Material Plane.


Planescape was about connecting many (but even in 2e not all)Except which ones?



First of all we're in the 3e section.Well, you looked into the non-3E first by mentioning the existence of Alternate Prime Material Planes...

But more importantly actual people who use FR usu usually either retain the Tree (and have it as alternative cosmology) or put it into One Great Wheel.And how, exactly, it disagreeing with what I said? :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

Let me remind you:
You said: "Unless your clothing is a lead-lined beekeeper outfit, I don't think it'll keep out lifesense"
I answered: "And why not?"
You replied: "Because regular clothing doesn't cover every inch of your flesh. It doesn't block line of effect from anything else, why this?"
My conlusion from your words was: "Lolnope, clothes can't block anything - never ever forever!.."
If you meant something else - you wasn't clear enough about it
So, do you agree stealth specialist equipped with sufficient suit would foil Lifesense just fine (as long as they don't fail their Hide checks)?


I suspect I define "clothes" differently than you do. When I use the term I don't mean specialized outifts like an Illithid Dampsuit unless specifically stated.

[ShurikVch]

I suspect I define "clothes" differently than you do. When I use the term I don't mean specialized outifts like an Illithid Dampsuit unless specifically stated.Sorry!
When I re-read it just now, it appeared to me - my words could be "not clear enough"
The "And why not?" should mean "And why not to wear such suit?"
(except the "lead-lined" may be a bit excessive - at least for protecting from Lifesense)
Really, why a stealthy character wouldn't wear such suit when actively trying to sneak on somebody?
And in case of "truly sudden encounter", when "Rogue" may wear something else, you may argue "Fighter" would be without their armor too (and, maybe, even without the weapon - if it was a Large weapon)

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I, fundementally, by mindset if not actual profession, an engineer. I want to know, in great detail, how stuff works; so a setting that basically functions on "ssh! Don't Maths the Setting, it doesn't work like that!" leaves me cold (as as a Lich that is immune2, that's quite an achivement.) (One might make the observation Planescape specifically is a bit a of philosphical sort of setting, which perhaps explains why I don't have any truck with it, since I and philosophy generally are on barely-civil terms at the best of times.)

But, again, Planescape doesn't work by waving its hands and saying "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain," it works on logic and physics like any other world, it just so happens that that physics is completely different from real-world physics. There's a certain amount of uncertainty because the sourcebooks largely detail things in an in-character voice, but aside from that the mechanics of the setting are fairly well-understood at the high level (how souls work, exemplar race life cycles, how planes relate, where magic comes from, etc.) and can be used to answer more low-level question like "Why can't you resurrect outsiders?" and "Why does defiling magic on Athas kill the world?" and such.

Handwaveyness only really comes into it if you're e.g. only looking at the 3e MotP, which distills the basics down for a new edition without explaining anything in detail, but complaining that Planescape is handwavey because 3e MotP doesn't go into enough detail is like complaining that Star Wars EU hyperspace physics is inconsistent because Disney Canon didn't know (and then made a hash of) how hyperspace works.

As a fellow engineer-by-mindset (and also profession), I like fantasy settings that aren't just real-world physics with magic tacked on--ones that are done well, anyway--because I appreciate the worldbuilding and find it much easier both to suspend disbelief and to rule how uncertain rules interactions should work out if the cosmology and metaphysics are comprehensive than if the setting just throws up its hands and goes "I dunno, it's magic, I don't have to explain it."

If I want to do "D&D! In! SPAAACE!", for instance, it's trivial to assume real-world physics as a baseline and start tinkering with spells and items to deal with that; something like Spelljammer, which grabs pre-modern conceptions of physics and runs with it without letting go, is a much more interesting and fleshed-out setting to work with because it's not as obvious as the kind of "Well what if we made a space shuttle that worked on decanters of endless water?" shenanigans that players try to get up to all the time anyway.


Golarion remains the only D&D-adjacent campaign world that I have bought stuff for and read solely for fun (and even the stuff I bought for Rolemaster for Middle-Earth was because I did plan to run there one day) - and that? Started the moment I discovered that Golarion had PLANETS and an honest-to-Evilness solar system.)

That's kinda funny, because I'm the opposite: I can't stand Golarion at all. Everything about it is less interesting than its D&D equivalents, which makes sense given that the entire setting premise is basically "generic D&D enough to keep using old Dragon and Dungeon material, but with serial numbers filed off to avoid ticking off the lawyers."

The Inner Sea and its neighboring continents are just a big patchwork of stereotypical Fantasy Counterpart Cultures (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyCounterpartCulture) like the Forgotten Realms, but without the Realms' explanation that those cultural influences come from actual Earth via portals. The Great Beyond is just a bunch of Great Wheel planes bunched together with the serial numbers filed off, but without the more interesting planar geography like Acheron's Platonic landmasses, Bytopia's mirrored landscapes, and the like. And the thing where Golarion straight-up uses the tired old Cthulhu Mythos monsters and locations and such to a tiring extent without even trying to put its own spin on them, and when the tone of Mythos stuff and Pathfinder stuff are completely at odds and the writers didn't seem to notice, is, in my view, the height of design hackery and laziness.

If it's mostly the actual-solar-system feel you like, I'd suggest googling around for Planejammer or Gatejammer material, homebrew efforts to create a Spelljammer-style astronomical setting layout using Planescape materials (e.g. the Nine Hells become the Baatorian System, a nine-planet solar system where the fireballs in Avernus are meteor storms from nearby asteroid fields, Cania is frozen because it's far from the sun, etc.). All the grandeur and exotic locales of Planescape but with a more down-to-earth(s) cosmology.


I take issue with that! The Great Wheel does have planets and stars but Earth is not one of them. Given that Oerth is on the Great Wheel other parallels (Earth, Aerth, Yarth, Uerth) aren't. Should probably still be accessible by the Plane of Shadow but isn't on the Great Wheel.

Point of order: the Earth that is one of Oerth's mirror worlds is not the same as "our" Earth, because Oerth's Earth is a dead-magic world with no magical, supernatural, or divine anything in its history while "our" Earth is accessible from Toril through normal non-Plane-of-Shadow means and is actually the source of a lot of the gods and races on Toril (the setting being named such because Toril is a set of Realms that were Forgotten by us when a lot of the magic left Earth).

And those are't the only Earths out there accessible from the Wheel. There are Planescape and Greyhawk adventures where portals lead to Gothic Earth, a historical-Earth-with-a-hint-of-horror Earth from the Masque of the Red Death setting; Clark Ashton Smith Earth, an Earth with actual Lovecraftian influences, from Smith's writings; Alternate Historical Earth, a historical-Earth-with-a-bit-of-magic Earth described in 2e's Historical Reference series; Shadow Chasers Earth, an Earth secretly invaded by illithids and other sneaky monsters, from the Urban Arcana and Shadow Chasers settings; and Midgard/Benben/Gaia, ancient Earths where the Norse/Pharaonic/Olympian pantheons are the only sets of gods and the ancient Norse/Egyptian/Greek cosmology exist as demiplanes to make those religions' cosmology "true;" and probably more that I can't think of offhand.


Now, back on topic...


The best solution I see for the problem of continuous open ended control vs blanket immunity, is to not have spells that allow open ended control (or not until very high levels). [...] It's funny how when you look at splatbook enchantments from almost any publisher, WotC included, they're almost always narrower, shorter in duration, and higher level than the PHB spells. Even though they're usually quite powerful effects, who cares? Charm/Suggest/Dominate already does literally everything. But if you get rid or massively increase the level of the open ended spells, you can write a whole buffet of worthwhile individual compulsions instead, spells which make people do specific things, are easy to adjudicate, and don't drag the game to a halt.
[...]
Though really, once you get rid of continuous open ended control at low levels, the fact that certain low level spells stop mental control doesn't seem nearly so huge,

Completely agreed. When broad and flexible mind-control is an easy thing for lots of casters to access, you need low level spells that shut it down to prevent all the rulers who aren't themselves high-level spellcasters from getting mind-controlled by anyone who has their eyes on the throne. Push those spells to higher levels and you remove the need for lower-level protections.


As for whether I've done that- 's a lotta work for a type of magic I'd rather just throw a fisheye at. But I do have a 1st level spell to compel answering a question, and a 3rd level for suppressing a memory (adapted from 3rd party books), which I think could go a long way to ameliorating some of the only reasons a good-guy party should need any compulsions: prisoner info and covering your tracks. If people are trying to cast Charm Person solely to get info out of prisoners they shouldn't have taken in the first place, just give them a 1st level spell that gets answers. If they want to jedi mind trick their way past a guard or keep a witness from reporting without disappearing, give them a spell that does that, instead of one that makes people do literally anything they command.

Indeed. Enchantment having a do-it-all dominate spell is just like Transmutation having do-it-all polymorph spells, people just don't peg it as a major issue like they do shapechanging spells because there are existing protections against Enchantments but you can't really have a protection from other people polymorphing themselves spell.

[Saint-Just]

First of all I should probably ackowoldge PairO'Dice Lost's points that there is a crapton of different Earths, at least one of which is on the Great Wheel. Nevertheless,



Eberron was never demonstrated any connections to a "more mainstream" D&D worlds


But you initially postulated that Great Wheel is the only possible configuration, which is refuted by the Eberron



Heck, local elves are never heard the name of Corellon Larethian (for crying out loud!)


I am sure elves of Athas never heard about him either. I am less sure abut Krynn, but he shouldn't have presence there either. It demonstrates nothing



With the same level of arguments you may try to state the Great Wheel isn't default because Warcraft don't have it


Warcraft is not an official D&D(tm) setting.



Earlier, you mentioned the "other parallels (Earth, Aerth, Yarth, Uerth)"; since they are predating 3E Manual of the Planes, how the heck anything about them could be proved or disproved by the 3E Manual of the Planes?

If you would look into the 1E Manual of the Planes - it said completely different story: not just the Plane of Shadow, but all other planes are exist in singular number, thus - only Prime Material Plane can have parallels.
I. e. - you would be right and wrong in the same time:
Right - other Prime Material Planes aren't connected to a separate parallel Great Wheels;
Wrong - they're still connected to the very same Great Wheel as the "default" Prime Material Plane.


On the first page you said, "Every parallel world have its own Great Wheel". You change your position mid-discussion.

[Aotrs Commander]

Completely agreed. When broad and flexible mind-control is an easy thing for lots of casters to access, you need low level spells that shut it down to prevent all the rulers who aren't themselves high-level spellcasters from getting mind-controlled by anyone who has their eyes on the throne. Push those spells to higher levels and you remove the need for lower-level protections.

Indeed. Enchantment having a do-it-all dominate spell is just like Transmutation having do-it-all polymorph spells, people just don't peg it as a major issue like they do shapechanging spells because there are existing protections against Enchantments but you can't really have a protection from other people polymorphing themselves spell.

For similar reasons, I thought among the worst things Pathfinder did (and among the top-two which made me largely ignore the system for years, which was unfortunate, since it does SO MUCH ELSE right) was to nerf Dispel Magic, something so unilaterally critical it's only half a step away from being removed as a spell and made into something any caster can do just. (As it is, I have long had a rule that says "anything and everything that can will ahve at LEAST one Dispel Magic loaded or on tap.)



Hell, it's only since Pathfinder: Kingmaker I've just about stopped giving the various Shadow [school] spells the side-eye (largely because I had never grocked they were not working on AD&D's "you hav to even suspect it's an illusion before you make a save" rules) because of their open-ended flexibility and I'd give serious consideration to Wish/Miracle's removal if they weren't such an unbiquitous cure-all that it'd be a massive pain to go through every single instance to replace them (even I balk at that, and my spells document full of revised/updated/new spells could potentially breech 300 pages by the time I'm done...)



[Side-Topic and thus spoilered]

But, again, Planescape doesn't work by waving its hands and saying "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain," it works on logic and physics like any other world, it just so happens that that physics is completely different from real-world physics.

But that's the problem. They aren't, really. Aside from a few hand-waves here and there (time/gravity, to mention the most obvious ones), the planes don't work fundementally differently - else the PCs could not FUNCTION there to have adventures - aside from the usual physics bending by making something be big for the sake of being big (re: infinitely tall spire on which Sigil is; no, I don't find Golarion's Pharasma's Spire much more credible in that regard either, actually.)


As a fellow engineer-by-mindset (and also profession), I like fantasy settings that aren't just real-world physics with magic tacked on--ones that are done well, anyway--because I appreciate the worldbuilding and find it much easier both to suspend disbelief and to rule how uncertain rules interactions should work out if the cosmology and metaphysics are comprehensive than if the setting just throws up its hands and goes "I dunno, it's magic, I don't have to explain it."

I expect real-world physics with magic/sufficiently advanced technology, because the only time I have even vaguely credible seen someone do something where it wasn't fundementally that was maybe in the Skylark series, I think it was. Changing the fundemental way physics work enough for it to be worth doing is a massively complex endeavour only possible by someone who has some idea of how it works first to be able to change it. And I want to see your working. In detail. I expect "physics are different," to be done on the same sort of technical level as Professor Tolkien did his languages.

(Which is, incidently, why I have no problems with cribbing human cultures for campaign worlds - I do it myself. (Side note - as I find "they're actually from Earth" to be more damning than not drawing attention to it, so congratulations, my opinion of the Relams just dropped even further...!) I've seen - thanks to a mate of mine, whose work will likely sadly never see the light of day because of his extreme aspurger's (and it' a crying tragedy) - the amount of effort and time (uears) and understanding of cultural/relgious history in how one informs the other that it takes to actual construct a whole network of cultures from first principles that have lifted nothing from existant human cultures (not even Earth-human ethnicities). So having some "this is basically this flavour-land" makes it remotely feasible to try and do a decent job on a one or two instead; as additionally, NOT having a massive patchwork of cultures is also wrong. (Golarion slips up here too, actually, in that the other planets in the system seem to have far little diversity in nations.) Besides, if you are Doing Your Research Properly (and you SHOULD be) it is a good excuse to read on some historical cultures, innit?)




If I want to do "D&D! In! SPAAACE!", for instance, it's trivial to assume real-world physics as a baseline and start tinkering with spells and items to deal with that; something like Spelljammer, which grabs pre-modern conceptions of physics and runs with it without letting go, is a much more interesting and fleshed-out setting to work with because it's not as obvious as the kind of "Well what if we made a space shuttle that worked on decanters of endless water?" shenanigans that players try to get up to all the time anyway.

As far as I'm concerned, nothing exists in isolation. Stuff we do in D&D? Is not in an isolated D&D-only universe, it's simple a part of a larger one.

So starships exist, regardless of whether any particular planet has access to the technology already, and a goodly number of star-faring civilisationations already utilise magic in addition to their technology which forms the backbone and "fantasy" planets are simple too technologically and thaumatherigicaly primitive to be able to manage interstellar travel other than over cosmologically "local" planes and/or planets and that even only exists because the the retrocasual probability engineering by the oldest known civilisation engineered it (with the chilling implication it might be possible that they retrocasually engineered Reality so while they have always been the first, they may not have always been the first), for unknown reasons, explictly so there WERE any "fantasy planets" to begin with, along with the multiple near-identical instances of at least two worlds (well one world and one double-planet) and interstellar teleportation even over confined bounds of "between 'fantasy' planets" is such a massive game-changer, the only time it happened and the subsequent near-pre-historical war was probably the single most important event in reality since the aforementioned ancient race decided to make everything be the way it always was.

So you might be able to teleport from Faerun to Greyhawk (or one of the Earths), but you can't teleport from Faerun to Golarion or Dreemaenhyll, and definitely not to Vasbatros or all of the Earths or all of the Haron-and-Urrots or Strayvavat or Bortathk; because if was that easy, somebody would have already conquered everything already.

(So if you make a spaceshuttle powered by decanters of endless water, the first time you meet something hostile (and you inevitably will), you'd gain a (very brief) understanding of what an Out of Context Problem is...)




That's kinda funny, because I'm the opposite: I can't stand Golarion at all. Everything about it is less interesting than its D&D equivalents, which makes sense given that the entire setting premise is basically "generic D&D enough to keep using old Dragon and Dungeon material, but with serial numbers filed off to avoid ticking off the lawyers."

The Inner Sea and its neighboring continents are just a big patchwork of stereotypical Fantasy Counterpart Cultures (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyCounterpartCulture) like the Forgotten Realms, but without the Realms' explanation that those cultural influences come from actual Earth via portals. The Great Beyond is just a bunch of Great Wheel planes bunched together with the serial numbers filed off, but without the more interesting planar geography like Acheron's Platonic landmasses, Bytopia's mirrored landscapes, and the like. And the thing where Golarion straight-up uses the tired old Cthulhu Mythos monsters and locations and such to a tiring extent without even trying to put its own spin on them, and when the tone of Mythos stuff and Pathfinder stuff are completely at odds and the writers didn't seem to notice, is, in my view, the height of design hackery and laziness.

I can only speak anecdotally, but since I got PF's Great Beyond, I haven't cracked open my Manual of the Planes.

I tried reading - I really, REALLY tried - something my then-DM sent around to us about Faerun history when we were playing a game there. Bearing in mind I am happy to read REAL history (and sometimes from stuff that can be a little bit more techical in places than I'd prefer). And I had to give up because it was such an interesting slog to get through.

[side topic side topic]And also because Fantasy Writers Have No Concept Of The Speed Of History.

Golarion still gets is wrong, mostly; but there are places where they actually DON'T and history proceeds as a sensible pace, not full of hundreds of years where nothing happens and nothing advances except for the clearly dilineated They Started Writing Sourcebooks/Adventures From This Point; yes, pretty much every other fantasy timeline - yes, even you Middle-Earth - I've ever seen, lookin' at you. Ball-park accuracy is plenty, but at least make it look like you've at least glanced in the genertion of the ball-park once, please.

To practise what I preach? Very first thing I did with my current campaign world was do some research to work out approximately what technologies came in when (and by technology and I mean, like, "writing" and "pottery" as well as "iron weapons") and came up with a timeline, which placed things in a reasonable order of magnitude. I also compressed events I had considered by a good 80% when I sat and thought about it, because that "a thousand years" writers all over are fond of is a nice-impressive sounding number, but it is IMPLAUSIBLY long when compared to any historical progression. A full thousand years sat on his arse doing nowt made the Dark Lord look like a chump, not a frightenly intelligent divine being the gods are afraid of. A couple of hundred years is more than enough to do the job of a societal collapse - long enough for stuff to fade out of human living generational memory - and re-build while the Dark Lord reforms himself, frankly.) [/side topic side topic]



1Any setting that says "you can't starships" can just get out of my room right now or be forcibly ejected; there is no place for you here; suggest "sailing ships in space" and you don't have to leave, because I'll be sweeping your Maximised Disintegrate dust off my carpet.

[ShurikVch]

But you initially postulated that Great Wheel is the only possible configuration, which is refuted by the EberronLet me to clarify (in case it was unclear):
All those Alternate Earths are parallel to Oerth, and connected to a planes which are similar to those which connected to Prime Material Plane which includes Oerth
My question: in that case, why it shouldn't be arranged in a Great Wheel?



I am sure elves of Athas never heard about him either. I am less sure abut Krynn, but he shouldn't have presence there either. It demonstrates nothingOn the contrary: both Athas and Krynn elves are well aware about Corellon - he is god of all elves for D&D multiverse
The fact Eberron is unaware about him - despite having elven population - hint us it's in some other multiverse



Warcraft is not an official D&D(tm) setting.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5104GTSC11L._SX366_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
Note the official 3E D&D logo:
https://img.favpng.com/1/1/21/dungeons-dragons-tactics-chainmail-dungeons-dragons-miniatures-game-dungeons-dragons-basic-set-png-favpng-4ugGK8FG4RTbEPgPMYt5WR7DT_t.jpg



On the first page you said, "Every parallel world have its own Great Wheel". You change your position mid-discussion.I don't changing anything:
The "parallel Great Wheels" is my educated guess based on the known 3E info
Uniqueness of non-Material planes is the RAW for 1E AD&D

[Powerdork]

It's time to start a new thread.