Druid 1st level Variant Human for Arcana Cleric for double ASI?

[Benny89]

So as we all know the most optimum build for Arcana is Variant Human for Magic Initiate: Druid to grab Shillelagh. However, that costs ASI just for cantrip. We also need to max 20 WIS and get Warcaster as fast as possible. Normally leveling looks like: level 1 : MI:D, Level 4: Warcaste, level 8: +2 WIS, level 12 +2 WIS.

However for just one level dip we can get tons of features for Arcana Cleric:

1. Duird cantrips including Shillelagh, which saves us ASI
2. Warcaster at start from Variant Human
3. Goodberries, Entangle, Fearie Fire, Absorb Elements, all which I will be able to upcast/cast from my cleric list.
4. I keep my slots progression.

So going 1/19 I push myself one level back but I get to save 2 ASI for the 1 dip, which means I can have Shillelagh, Warcaster, WIS +2, WIS +2 by level 9.

Do you agree it's worth it?

[LudicSavant]

So as we all know the most optimum build for Arcana is Variant Human for Magic Initiate: Druid to grab Shillelagh. However, that costs ASI just for cantrip. We also need to max 20 WIS and get Warcaster as fast as possible. Normally leveling looks like: level 1 : MI:D, Level 4: Warcaste, level 8: +2 WIS, level 12 +2 WIS.

However for just one level dip we can get tons of features for Arcana Cleric:

1. Duird cantrips including Shillelagh, which saves us ASI
2. Warcaster at start from Variant Human
3. Goodberries, Entangle, Fearie Fire, Absorb Elements, all which I will be able to upcast/cast from my cleric list.
4. I keep my slots progression.

So going 1/19 I push myself one level back but I get to save 2 ASI for the 1 dip, which means I can have Shillelagh, Warcaster, WIS +2, WIS +2 by level 9.

Do you agree it's worth it?

Druid dip is quite good. The main sticking point is whether or not your DM is going to give you a hard time with armor.

[Benny89]

Druid dip is quite good. The main sticking point is whether or not your DM is going to give you a hard time with armor.

I don't think so because the point is that this character heard a "call of faith" and he gave up being a druid to be Cleric of (Insert Magic Diety). So he gave up his druid ways so he is not bound anymore by it, but by his deity "rules". He still respects the nature but he does not think of himself as druid anymore.

[Chronos]

I don't think so because the point is that this character heard a "call of faith" and he gave up being a druid to be Cleric of (Insert Magic Diety). So he gave up his druid ways so he is not bound anymore by it, but by his deity "rules".
And again, it depends on what your DM thinks. They could rule that "gave up being a druid" means that they're now just a straight cleric, with no druid spells. They could rule that you still have that level, but don't gain any of the benefits of it while wearing metal. They could rule that they never care what armor any druid wears. You need to ask.

And it's not essential for a cleric to get Shillelagh, anyway, and even if you do spend a feat on it, that's not all the feat is giving you. You're still getting some other cantrip and a first-level spell.

Plus, of course, while your spell slot progression will be unimpacted, a dip does still delay your access to higher-level spells. Be sure to consider that in your cost-benefit analysis.

[col_impact]

Druid dip is quite good. The main sticking point is whether or not your DM is going to give you a hard time with armor.

Best option is half-plate adamantine armor made by Water Elemental (shells instead of metal). Its exactly the same as regular adamantine half-plate.

[Addaran]

Best option is half-plate adamantine armor made by Water Elemental (shells instead of metal). Its exactly the same as regular adamantine half-plate.

It really isn't an adamantine armor if it's shells. =P

But i'm all for allowing druids to have metal or to make a magical Water Elemental shells plate that have the same stat has adamantine.

[col_impact]

It really isn't an adamantine armor if it's shells. =P

But i'm all for allowing druids to have metal or to make a magical Water Elemental shells plate that have the same stat has adamantine.
Yup. And it is fully endorsed RAW by the DM Guide.

[Benny89]

And again, it depends on what your DM thinks. They could rule that "gave up being a druid" means that they're now just a straight cleric, with no druid spells. They could rule that you still have that level, but don't gain any of the benefits of it while wearing metal. They could rule that they never care what armor any druid wears. You need to ask.

And it's not essential for a cleric to get Shillelagh, anyway, and even if you do spend a feat on it, that's not all the feat is giving you. You're still getting some other cantrip and a first-level spell.

Plus, of course, while your spell slot progression will be unimpacted, a dip does still delay your access to higher-level spells. Be sure to consider that in your cost-benefit analysis.

Druid wearing armor does not mean losing spells. There is nothing about that. It's just druids believe that it's wrong for them to do so. Also as for their magic: "from the force of nature itself" so they are not bound by any diety that will suddenly "take away" their powers just because he wears armor. So he is still bounded with nature but his main class is now cleric and clerics don't have problem with armor.

[Boci]

Druid wearing armor does not mean losing spells. There is nothing about that. It's just druids believe that it's wrong for them to do so. Also as for their magic: "from the force of nature itself" so they are not bound by any diety that will suddenly "take away" their powers just because he wears armor. So he is still bounded with nature but his main class is now cleric and clerics don't have problem with armor.

Yes, but most DM will interpret "Armor: Light armor, medium armor, shields (druids will not wear armor or use shields made of metal)" bot as "Most druids choose not to wear armour of metal but unconventional ones might" but as "Druid players will not wear metal armour. If they do, something bad happens", and if they go for that approach, they're probably going to take away the spell casting.

[Benny89]

Yes, but most DM will interpret "Armor: Light armor, medium armor, shields (druids will not wear armor or use shields made of metal)" bot as "Most druids choose not to wear armour of metal but unconventional ones might" but as "Druid players will not wear metal armour. If they do, something bad happens", and if they go for that approach, they're probably going to take away the spell casting.

No worries, my DM is not a douche, so he will just go with it.

He is not a nit-picking kind of DM, he usually rolls with what is cool and suits player roleplay-side.

[Boci]

No worries, my DM is not a douche, so he will just go with it.

He is not a nit-picking kind of DM, he usually rolls with what is cool and suits player roleplay-side.

To clarify, a DM is not a douche or nit-picky for not letting a druid wear metal armour without some penalty. "Druids tend not to wear armour, its a common but not universal preferance" is fluff that does not belong under armour proficiencies. The presence there implies that it is meant to something mechanical. The fault is with WotC for being unclear.

[Benny89]

To clarify, a DM is not a douche or nit-picky for not letting a druid wear metal armour without some penalty. "Druids tend not to wear armour, its a common but not universal preferance" is fluff that does not belong under armour proficiencies. The presence there implies that it is meant to something mechanical. The fault is with WotC for being unclear.

It's fluff. It says nothing that Druids receive any penalties for wearing them. It's the same with any organization that has certain beliefes/rules and there are always individuals who are breaking them/going their own way/rebel etc. It's just a fluff thing. What do you think would happen if Druid got to wear metal armor? Nothing. Just other druids would probably look at that with disgust or condem it.

It wouldn't change that fact that that Druid would still feel a Druid and do his job of protecting nature. They don't seem to be negative towards Ancient Paladins who covered by metal, yet still protect nature and natural order in the same way as they do.

As I said there is nothing saying about any mechanical penalties for Druids for wearing metal armor and shields.


But again- it won't affect me and my build so going back to Druid/Arcana.

My campaign will probably end at level 10. We don't know if we will continue later. It's a custom campaign during a Great Magic War that destroys Fearun.

So I don't want to delay my Potent Spellcasting or my Spirit Guardians but on the other hand - even with monoclass I will have max 2 levels of enjoying Potent Spellcasting SCAG cantrips. On the other hand for 1-8/9 level with Druid dip I get tons of new spells that scale PHENOMENALLY (Fearie Fire, Entangle, Absorb Elements, Goodberry) + Shillelagh and Thorn Whip.

So it's a question between being stronger 1-7, being stronger at level 8 and being equally strong at level 9.

[Boci]

As I said there is nothing saying about any mechanical penalties for Druids for wearing metal armor and shields.

Yes, but it does say you won't. Taken in the most literally it means that as a druid, you won't wear metal armour. Nothing happens when you wear metal armour, because you never will. You as a player are not allowed to have your character wear metal armour, if you are a druid.

You can say its fluff, but you can't know that. It's not in the fluff section, its in the mechanics. Which means its up to the DM to interpret. Hence, the blame being with WotC for bad formatting.

[(Un)Inspired]

I think you might be approaching this from the wrong angle. While using your wisdom and a wizard cantrip to hit someone with a club is fun, the power from Arcana Domain is the level 17 feature.

Having access to Simulacrum and Wish and True Polymorph and Contingency (among other wizard spells) means you get to sit at the big kids table. Breaking the action economy and spell casting rules is so versatile and outright powerful that being slightly better at poking someone with a sharp stick pales in comparison.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to play a Rock’em Sock’em Cleric but if you’re claiming to look for an optimize build then taking a level of Druid and prolonging your slow climb to level 17 is anything but.

[Benny89]

I think you might be approaching this from the wrong angle. While using your wisdom and a wizard cantrip to hit someone with a club is fun, the power from Arcana Domain is the level 17 feature.

Having access to Simulacrum and Wish and True Polymorph and Contingency (among other wizard spells) means you get to sit at the big kids table. Breaking the action economy and spell casting rules is so versatile and outright powerful that being slightly better at poking someone with a sharp stick pales in comparison.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to play a Rock’em Sock’em Cleric but if you’re claiming to look for an optimize build then taking a level of Druid and prolonging your slow climb to level 17 is anything but.

I know that his 17th feature is gold but I doubt we will get there. Even if there is no much difference between 17 and 18 ass everyone at our table take some multiclass, 1/19 or 2/18 so it's not like I will come online later than them.

Right now I try to focus on what I know I will face, which is 1-10 journey, during which I want to maximize my power and progression.

[(Un)Inspired]

If you're staying at lower levels than it's even more important to not dip to delay your spellcasting progression.

Again, I'm purely speaking from an optimization point of view. While Wizards will be getting Fireball and Fighters will be attacking twice and other clerics will be doing huge area of effect damage and battlefield control with Spirit Guardians you'll be sitting there bonking people on the head with a club.

When it comes to playing a spellcaster every single new level of spell you can cast is a dramatic uptick in power and any bit you fall behind in that power means you're essentially playing as everyone's adorable little brother.

There's nothing wrong with having an idea for a build that's fun but less powerful but the difference between having your wisdom 1 point higher and being able to cast a full level higher of spells is no contest in terms of strength.

[Benny89]

If you're staying at lower levels than it's even more important to not dip to delay your spellcasting progression.

Again, I'm purely speaking from an optimization point of view. While Wizards will be getting Fireball and Fighters will be attacking twice and other clerics will be doing huge area of effect damage and battlefield control with Spirit Guardians you'll be sitting there bonking people on the head with a club.

When it comes to playing a spellcaster every single new level of spell you can cast is a dramatic uptick in power and any bit you fall behind in that power means you're essentially playing as everyone's adorable little brother.

There's nothing wrong with having an idea for a build that's fun but less powerful but the difference between having your wisdom 1 point higher and being able to cast a full level higher of spells is no contest in terms of strength.

I disagree with this. 1 level dips are well worth if they give you more options that will be useful through out your whole journey.

Yes, I will get behind 1 level so that means that at level 5 I will still have 2 level spells while other cleric at party will have Spirit Guardians.

However, It's me who is SAD, who has free magic weapon attacks from level 1 who has toll the dead opportunity attacks, advantage on concentration from level 1 (keeping Bless/Bane), who has tons of goodberries for party, who has Absorb Elements at hand, who has Fearie Fire for our party melee etc. Only 1 level more and I get Spirit Guardians too. However till that "spike" I am getting tons of more stuff. And after I also get Spirit Guardians just one level later- what there is really more for me to wait for? There are some great Cleric spells, but 3rd level is THE spike. Once that gap closes (and it's only 1 level), the dip build gets ahead till level 17, which will probably never happen. I am also 1 FULL ASI ahead. Meaning that at level 12 when to other cleric is picking his 20 WIS, Warcaster, M:I, I already was having all of that from level 9 and just one level later I will be looking at Lucky, Mobile, RES (CON), Magic Initiate: Wizard for Find Familliar for example etc.

I played a lot of "Dip Builds" like Paladin/1 Hexblade, 2 Hexblade/Lore Bards, 1 Artificer/Wizard etc. and each time the dip was much stronger and better optimized than monoclass. Reason is that "spike" levels only happen few times for each class. For example level 5 is spike for casters and most melee, but level 7 for most is meh apart from Paladins. And so on. However, being optimized for that 1-4, 5-7 etc. is as important in good build as getting those spikes. For example it's well worth to lose 1 level for extra ASI, for extra armor and weapon proficiencies and for being SAD. It just go longer way than monoclassing.

1 level is not a lot of you can tons of value for just one level with some dips.

[Chad.e.clark]

If I am not mistaken, in 3.5e there were explicitly stated limits and consequences forncertain classes. Druids had something along the lines of "you lose access to druid class features while wearing metal armor". (Fwiw, monks could no longer take further levels in monk if they multiclassed, and paladins had to be Lawful Good, if memory serves.)

But 5e has no such consequences for druids. It would have easily been covered with the following: specifying only Hide armor proficiency fromedium armor for druids, as reading the PHB, it appears to me that is the only medium armor which features no metal in its description.

Or just assume that Druids have the common sense to modify medium armor to remove metal (reinforcing slats of wood with herbs and salves so as to harden it like metal, or rituals to nature gods, or any number of ways that could promote "rulings, not rules".)

[col_impact]

If you're staying at lower levels than it's even more important to not dip to delay your spellcasting progression.

Again, I'm purely speaking from an optimization point of view. While Wizards will be getting Fireball and Fighters will be attacking twice and other clerics will be doing huge area of effect damage and battlefield control with Spirit Guardians you'll be sitting there bonking people on the head with a club.

When it comes to playing a spellcaster every single new level of spell you can cast is a dramatic uptick in power and any bit you fall behind in that power means you're essentially playing as everyone's adorable little brother.

There's nothing wrong with having an idea for a build that's fun but less powerful but the difference between having your wisdom 1 point higher and being able to cast a full level higher of spells is no contest in terms of strength.

Nah. You are overlooking all that a 1 level dip in druid gives you.

[Arkhios]

However, that costs ASI just for cantrip.

Variant Human Racial Bonus Feat ≠ Ability Score Improvement (a.k.a. ASI).

[Boci]

But 5e has no such consequences for druids. It would have easily been covered with the following: specifying only Hide armor proficiency fromedium armor for druids, as reading the PHB, it appears to me that is the only medium armor which features no metal in its description.

Or just assume that Druids have the common sense to modify medium armor to remove metal (reinforcing slats of wood with herbs and salves so as to harden it like metal, or rituals to nature gods, or any number of ways that could promote "rulings, not rules".)

The first option has two implications: 1, no future proof against splat book medium armour, or even exotic materials mentioned in the DMG. And 2, if a lack of proficiency was the only thing stopping the druid, a multiclassing druid could freely wear it.

The second is not a big ruling, but it has implications. If its assumed druids can make non-metal armour functional identical to the origional version, then that is something many non-druids might be interested in. It helps them against heat metal, rust monster attacks ect, and doesn't have too many downsides.

Bottom line: Its unclear, and therefor bad formatting. The line needed to either not be in the proficiency, or needed to explain exactly what mechanically happens when a druid wears metal armour. Yes the DM can make a ruling on it, but for something as basic as what class can wear what armour, there should probably be a definitive answer, like there is for literally every other class (and the DM could still change things if they wanted ebcause they are the DM.)

[Eldariel]

Nah. You are overlooking all that a 1 level dip in druid gives you.

It gives you some nice stuff, but it's not a gimme. That is to say, there is a lot to be said for not losing caster progression, but some Druid 1 spells are really good. Still, not having e.g. Spirit Guardians or Dispel Magic on level 5 is a huge downtick in power as well as getting Shapechange late (the Arcana feature for copying Wizard stuff), having a delay on Conjure Celestial and Divine Word, etc.

[Chad.e.clark]

The second is not a big ruling, but it has implications. If its assumed druids can make non-metal armour functional identical to the origional version, then that is something many non-druids might be interested in. It helps them against heat metal, rust monster attacks ect, and doesn't have too many downsides.

Bottom line: Its unclear, and therefor bad formatting. The line needed to either not be in the proficiency, or needed to explain exactly what mechanically happens when a druid wears metal armour. Yes the DM can make a ruling on it, but for something as basic as what class can wear what armour, there should probably be a definitive answer, like there is for literally every other class (and the DM could still change things if they wanted ebcause they are the DM.)

I don't want to get too far into homebrew or further derail the thread, but it occurs to me having non-metal equivalent armor be locked behind Druid class level (like Warlock invocations) would be a simple solution to prevent non-Druids from easily acquiring Heat Metal-proof and Rust Monster-proof gear.

And I completely agree about the poor formatting. Clearly spell out consequences for breaking taboos or dont mention the taboos at all.

[KorvinStarmast]

Variant Human Racial Bonus Feat ≠ Ability Score Improvement (a.k.a. ASI). Thank you for reminding the OP of that fact. :smallsmile:


However, that costs ASI just for cantrip.
No, it does not.
You also get a level 1 Druid Spell that casts with wisdom, and you get another cantrip. (I suggest Guidance, as it is on the Druid list, or some other)

What level 1 spell do you want? You can't get the goodberry cheese unless you are a life cleric, but, if the campaign is a survival campaign, goodberry renders food a non issue. So take that: otherwise, take something like Entangle or Fog Cloud to have a once per day Battlefield Control spell handy.

Arcana Cleric provides you with the rest of what you need or want.

[Boci]

I don't want to get too far into homebrew or further derail the thread, but it occurs to me having non-metal equivalent armor be locked behind Druid class level (like Warlock invocations) would be a simple solution to prevent non-Druids from easily acquiring Heat Metal-proof and Rust Monster-proof gear.

And I completely agree about the poor formatting. Clearly spell out consequences for breaking taboos or dont mention the taboos at all.

I figured this must have been asked before and so I checked, finding a sort of answer here: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-march-2016


What happens if a druid wears metal armor? The druid explodes.

Well, not actually. Druids have a taboo against wearing metal armor and wielding a metal shield. The taboo has been part of the class’s story since the class first appeared in Eldritch Wizardry (1976) and the original Player’s Handbook (1978). The idea is that druids prefer to be protected by animal skins, wood, and other natural materials that aren’t the worked metal that is associated with civilization. Druids don’t lack the ability to wear metal armor. They choose not to wear it. This choice is part of their identity as a mystical order. Think of it in these terms: a vegetarian can eat meat, but the vegetarian chooses not to.

A druid typically wears leather, studded leather, or hide armor, and if a druid comes across scale mail made of a material other than metal, the druid might wear it. If you feel strongly about your druid breaking the taboo and donning metal, talk to your DM. Each class has story elements mixed with its game features; the two types of design go hand-in-hand in D&D, and the story parts are stronger in some classes than in others. Druids and paladins have an especially strong dose of story in their design. If you want to depart from your class’s story, your DM has the final say on how far you can go and still be considered a member of the class. As long as you abide by your character’s proficiencies, you’re not going to break anything in the game system, but you might undermine the story and the world being created in your campaign.

Which I don't find especially helpful, but basically confirms there's no one answer.

[Chronos]

The book says that druids don't wear metal armor. That's equivalent to the statement that anyone who wears metal armor is not a druid. Which implies that a druid who voluntarily puts on metal armor somehow ceases to be a druid.

What does it mean to cease to be a druid? That, the book doesn't specify. Maybe it means that you're now something that's almost like a druid in every way, except for wearing armor. Maybe it means that, plus now you can't cast Barkskin any more (a good trade; that's a pretty weak spell). Maybe it means that you no longer have any druid spells, or other class features. Maybe it means that you don't have those levels (together with all of their benefits, including hit points and proficiency bonus) at all. That's where the DM ruling comes in.

And you can't say that the DM is a douche because he's making a ruling, because he has to make a ruling there. There's no "don't make a ruling" option available.

[col_impact]

Just take a level in Monk and be Captain America who doesn't need armor.