Ranking 1st level spells

[ad_hoc]

Here's a quick tier list I put together of 1st level spells.

A player asks me my thoughts on a spell:

'Yeah that's a great spell' - S Tier
'Yeah that spell is pretty good' - A Tier
'That spell is a decent choice you should be satisfied with it' - B Tier
'That spell could be good but I advise caution when taking it' - C Tier
'That spell is either pretty terrible or is unlikely to come up/make a difference in the game often enough to be worth taking' - D Tier

Asterisks:

Warlock Spells - Warlock only spells are influenced by the Warlock upcasting mechanic.
D Tier Spells - If you don't have a cost to have these available they are fine. They are highly situational and will not be useful most of the time.
Color Spray/Sleep - These are D Tier after level 2 but quite good in levels 1 and 2.

Controversial Picks:

Dissonant Whispers - This spell is never talked about. 3d6 save for half is good damage for a first level spell, the same as the standard of Chromatic Orb with 3d8. Using a reaction to move away though provokes OAs and also saves ranged characters from having disadvantage. That is a lot of extra damage and control.
Feather Fall - Having this available is a game changer. It is great for both safety and exploration.
Bless - This would be S Tier if it wasn't Concentration, affected a full party of 4, or was a Bonus Action. It's still a solid buff but not as good as people think.
Burning Hands/Thunderwave - 3d6/2d8 save for half AoE is just better than the average single target damage spells of 1st level. Burning Hands has better aiming control while Thunderwave can save ranged characters.
Hex and Hunter's Mark - The Concentration stops these spells from being S Tier. In the case of Hex it also has the problem of not scaling well on a Warlock. Some extra damage is just not comparable to the huge effect that level 3+ spells have.
Mage Armor - This is A Tier after level 5. B Tier before that.

1st level spells:

S Tier:

Dissonant Whispers
Find Familiar
Healing Word
Shield

A Tier:

Absorb Elements
Bless
Burning Hands
Detect Magic
Entangle
Faerie Fire
Feather Fall
Hellish Rebuke
Hunter’s Mark
Guiding Bolt
Mage Armor
Magic Missile
Silent Image
Tasha’s Hideous Laughter
Thunderwave
Wrathful Smite

B Tier:

Alarm
Catapult
Cause Fear
Chaos Bolt
Chromatic Orb
Command
Disguise Self
Ensnaring Strike
Fog Cloud
Goodberry
Hex
Ice Knife
Inflict Wounds
Protection From Evil and Good
Shield of Faith
Speak with Animals
Thunderous Smite
Zephyr Strike

C Tier:

Animal Friendship
Armor of Agathys
Arms of Hadar
Bane
Charm Person
Compelled Duel
Comprehend Languages
Cure Wounds
Detect Evil and Good
Grease
Hail of Thorns
Ray of Sickness
Sanctuary
Snare
Unseen Servant

D Tier:

Beast Bond
Ceremony
Color Spray
Create or Destroy Water
Detect Poison and Disease
Divine Favor
Earth Tremor
Expeditious Retreat
False Life
Heroism
Sleep
Identify
Illusory Script
Jump
Longstrider
Purify Food and Drink
Searing Smite
Tenser’s Floating Disk
Witch Bolt

[nickl_2000]

I would argue strongly against Goodberry being so low. I had a Druid that I took to level 17 and didn't go a single day without casting goodberry. With it's healing capacity and the fact that they last 24 hours, they are perfect to use up spell slots right before a long rest. Then you get a large amount of out of combat healing for no real cost.

I would argue again animal friendship as well, but that may just be me.

[JumboWheat01]

I would actually knock Inflict Wounds down a rank. It does do a lot of damage, yes, but it's a save-and-nothing situation, if they make their throw, you just wasted a spell slot. Plus it's single-target and touch range. Sure, clerics can normally survive getting into someone's face, but really, it's not worth it even as a 1st slot.

[stoutstien]

I would actually knock Inflict Wounds down a rank. It does do a lot of damage, yes, but it's a save-and-nothing situation, if they make their throw, you just wasted a spell slot. Plus it's single-target and touch range. Sure, clerics can normally survive getting into someone's face, but really, it's not worth it even as a 1st slot.

inflict wounds is an attack roll not a save which is generally easier to buff up via advantage and so on and it can also crit. not saying its the best lv 1 spell but its a solid option if you have a lower AC target or war clerics CD can lay down some hurt with it and then follow up with a big 2hd weapon strike as a bonus action. overall id rate it not bad for early game but once cantrips scale up its hard to consider outside a higher level nuke if you know you can hit/crit them.

[ad_hoc]

I would argue strongly against Goodberry being so low. I had a Druid that I took to level 17 and didn't go a single day without casting goodberry. With it's healing capacity and the fact that they last 24 hours, they are perfect to use up spell slots right before a long rest. Then you get a large amount of out of combat healing for no real cost.

I would argue again animal friendship as well, but that may just be me.

What makes it better than a Healing Potion?


I would actually knock Inflict Wounds down a rank. It does do a lot of damage, yes, but it's a save-and-nothing situation, if they make their throw, you just wasted a spell slot. Plus it's single-target and touch range. Sure, clerics can normally survive getting into someone's face, but really, it's not worth it even as a 1st slot.

I could move all of the single target save or nothing spells down to C I suppose.

I'm trying to make B an 'average' tier and that seems average for one of those spells. It's not great but that's why there are so many spells in S and A.

[Chronos]

Another vote for Goodberry being at least A list. I've a ranger that I played from 5th to 13th level, in a party with two clerics. I ended up healing more damage than either of them, just from that spell.

And I'd bump Compelled Duel down considerably. For starters, it's a single-target save-negates, which gets it off on the wrong foot: There's a significant chance of blowing an action and a spell slot to do nothing. That might still be OK, if, say, it incapacitated the creature, like Tasha's Hideous Laughter does, but it doesn't come anywhere near close to that. At best, it's giving its target disadvantage on attack rolls, and even that ends if anyone but you fights it, or you fight anyone else. At worst, it's something that was going to attack the paladin anyway, and the spell accomplishes nothing even on a failed save.

Other than those two, I don't see any major disputes.

[stoutstien]

What makes it better than a Healing Potion?

cost, availability, and no over healing. making food a non issue is just gravy.

[JumboWheat01]

inflict wounds is an attack roll not a save which is generally easier to buff up via advantage and so on and it can also crit. not saying its the best lv 1 spell but its a solid option if you have a lower AC target or war clerics CD can lay down some hurt with it and then follow up with a big 2hd weapon strike as a bonus action. overall id rate it not bad for early game but once cantrips scale up its hard to consider outside a higher level nuke if you know you can hit/crit them.

Ah, you're right. Why was I thinking it was a save? Hrm...

[col_impact]

Goodberry and Silent Image are S tier. Expeditious Retreat, Catapult, Disguise Self, Sanctuary are A tier. Longstrider and Identify are B tier.

[JumboWheat01]

Goodberry and Silent Image are S tier. Expeditious Retreat is A tier. Longstrider is B tier.

I would rank Longstrider over Expeditious Retreat. It scales, lasts longer, is always active, can target others and doesn't require concentration. Sure, the bonus action Dash is nice, but if you use your bonus actions for other things (admittedly, something that Sorcerers, Warlocks and Wizards don't often need to do,) it's going to compete, meanwhile a simple +10 speed is going to be always available.

[col_impact]

I would rank Longstrider over Expeditious Retreat. It scales, lasts longer, is always active, can target others and doesn't require concentration. Sure, the bonus action Dash is nice, but if you use your bonus actions for other things (admittedly, something that Sorcerers, Warlocks and Wizards don't often need to do,) it's going to compete, meanwhile a simple +10 speed is going to be always available.

Why not both? I use them both a lot in tier 4.

[JumboWheat01]

Why not both? I use them both a lot in tier 4.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with being the fastest wizard in the land.

[ad_hoc]

Another vote for Goodberry being at least A list. I've a ranger that I played from 5th to 13th level, in a party with two clerics. I ended up healing more damage than either of them, just from that spell.

And I'd bump Compelled Duel down considerably. For starters, it's a single-target save-negates, which gets it off on the wrong foot: There's a significant chance of blowing an action and a spell slot to do nothing. That might still be OK, if, say, it incapacitated the creature, like Tasha's Hideous Laughter does, but it doesn't come anywhere near close to that. At best, it's giving its target disadvantage on attack rolls, and even that ends if anyone but you fights it, or you fight anyone else. At worst, it's something that was going to attack the paladin anyway, and the spell accomplishes nothing even on a failed save.

Other than those two, I don't see any major disputes.

Compelled Duel is a Bonus Action


cost, availability, and no over healing. making food a non issue is just gravy.

We must play in very different games.

When I play anything in the PHB is available in a decent sized city.

I haven't heard of anyone making Healing Potions unable to be purchased.

Gold is also very plentiful in a typical D&D game.

'Over Healing' is a silly concept when what we're talking about is a healing spell that isn't powerful enough to start with.

A lot of spells will be great in very certain campaigns. If food is an issue then sure, it isn't in a typical game. In Curse of Strahd Healing Potions are not able to be bought for example so then sure it is a great spell.

Can't evaluate spells on edge cases though.

[col_impact]

Compelled Duel is a Bonus Action



We must play in very different games.

When I play anything in the PHB is available in a decent sized city.

I haven't heard of anyone making Healing Potions unable to be purchased.

Gold is also very plentiful in a typical D&D game.

'Over Healing' is a silly concept when what we're talking about is a healing spell that isn't powerful enough to start with.

A lot of spells will be great in very certain campaigns. If food is an issue then sure, it isn't in a typical game. In Curse of Strahd Healing Potions are not able to be bought for example so then sure it is a great spell.

Can't evaluate spells on edge cases though.

{Scrubbed}

Goodberry is insanely good in tier 4 play. Start every session with tons of potions for everyone. It really is that good and removes the element of death by attrition.

Also, pick up Life Cleric 1 and you are a god of healing

[stoutstien]

Compelled Duel is a Bonus Action



We must play in very different games.

When I play anything in the PHB is available in a decent sized city.

I haven't heard of anyone making Healing Potions unable to be purchased.

Gold is also very plentiful in a typical D&D game.

'Over Healing' is a silly concept when what we're talking about is a healing spell that isn't powerful enough to start with.

A lot of spells will be great in very certain campaigns. If food is an issue then sure, it isn't in a typical game. In Curse of Strahd Healing Potions are not able to be bought for example so then sure it is a great spell.

Can't evaluate spells on edge cases though.

50 gold is a huge sum for low level players and even if they are earning 200g per level they are probably saving up for armor upgrades so every potion bought is a cost/sink that could be avoided with a practically infinite resource of a spell slot.

[ad_hoc]

50 gold is a huge sum for low level players and even if they are earning 200g per level they are probably saving up for armor upgrades so every potion bought is a cost/sink that could be avoided with a practically infinite resource of a spell slot.

In level 1 and 2 of course Healing Potions aren't plentiful.

Each Challenge 0-4 Treasure Hoard averages 400GP (coins plus gems/art)

The party is expected to have 7 rolls on that table by level 5. This is in addition to individual treasure rewards not in hoards.

That's 2800 GP for the party.

Keep in mind too that at these low levels these 1st level spell slots are worth a lot. Casters cannot afford to waste them.

Challenge 5-10 treasure hoards average over 4k+ GP each and are expected to get 3 of them per level.

[col_impact]

In level 1 and 2 of course Healing Potions aren't plentiful.

Each Challenge 0-4 Treasure Hoard averages 400GP (coins plus gems/art)

The party is expected to have 7 rolls on that table by level 5. This is in addition to individual treasure rewards not in hoards.

That's 2800 GP for the party.

Keep in mind too that at these low levels these 1st level spell slots are worth a lot. Casters cannot afford to waste them.

Challenge 5-10 treasure hoards average over 4k+ GP each and are expected to get 3 of them per level.

Do you know how goodberry works? It doesn't compete with spell slots for the day. {Scrubbed}

[ad_hoc]

Goodberry should be higher. :)

I've just never seen it have a substantial effect on the game.

Healing is just so cheap and plentiful in 5e.

I can see that it is popular though. If people are having fun with it that is what counts.

I mostly designed this list because I'm quarantined but also so that I can have something to give to my AP spellcasters out there who worry over their spells.

The good thing about a class like Druid is if they don't like it they can just change it out so it's not that big of a deal.

A Ranger though, that's a different story. They have so few known spells I think it is a big mistake in a standard game to take it.

[Pleh]

In level 1 and 2 of course Healing Potions aren't plentiful.

Each Challenge 0-4 Treasure Hoard averages 400GP (coins plus gems/art)

The party is expected to have 7 rolls on that table by level 5. This is in addition to individual treasure rewards not in hoards.

That's 2800 GP for the party.

Keep in mind too that at these low levels these 1st level spell slots are worth a lot. Casters cannot afford to waste them.

Challenge 5-10 treasure hoards average over 4k+ GP each and are expected to get 3 of them per level.

I mean, suppose you have both the money and the slots that you have the choice. Do you spend the money or the slot?

The slot will come back for free when you rest. The money must be replenished by adventuring.

So how often will you be forced to expend all your slots before resting, on average?

I think no matter how cheap potions are, players won't bother buying something they can craft for essentially free. That is a basic, essential adventuring component, that you can get for free any time you happen to have a few bonus slots after adventuring, letting you save up for something more expensive.

The spell is just win-win.

[Addaran]

Do you know how goodberry works? It doesn't compete with spell slots for the day. You shouldn't be presenting a list of best level 1 spells unless you have a broad base of player experience.

While yes you can convert non-used spell slots after the day, it's not always sure. Especially at low levels. At lvl 3, you only have 4+2 slots. So if you use one leveled spell per fight, with the normal 5-6 encounters a day, you probably don't have any left. And if your DM often ambushes you during the night, you might want at least a spell slot left.

I do agree goodberry are often better then healing potions, since they don't cost anything and also serve as food.

[Zuras]

Disguise Self and Protection From Evil and Good seem way too low. In my experience they are top picks in most campaigns, and are used well into higher tier play. They are both top choices for going into a ring of spell storing for a non-caster, for example.

[col_impact]

Disguise Self and Protection From Evil and Good seem way too low. In my experience they are top picks in most campaigns, and are used well into higher tier play. They are both top choices for going into a ring of spell storing for a non-caster, for example.

The list needs to be overhauled from scratch.

[Eldariel]

This list as a general list just doesn't work because what spells are good on what levels varies a a lot. This list needs more variables to truly bring justice to the various abilities.

Like Sleep for instance; it's still fine on level 3-4 but begins falling off sharply after Tier 2 (it still has its uses but doesn't). It's in the running for the best spell in the game on level 1-2 though. Meanwhile, spells like Silent Image, Disguise Self & Fog Cloud actually start picking up on higher levels since the alternatives become worse and you're no longer meaningfully restricted on slots per day. The guaranteed effects with strong automatic functions get better as the combat-leaning spells with effect gates get worse.

On the other hand, there are environments where e.g. Protection from Evil and Good or Animal Friendship is just ridiculously strong. Those range from fairly weak to best spells in the game depending on the environment and the DM.


Then we have stuff like Unseen Servant, which is actually a really good spell because it's a ritual - a free set of extra hands and actions without slot cost (that can't attack but it wouldn't attack even if it could as that's just not a meaningful combat contribution). Need torch somewhere for Pyrotechnics? DW, Unseen Servant's got it. Got an openable/closeable door with enemies on the other side? Take free potshots at the enemy and let your servant work the door. Need to pick up an item from a heavily trapped room? Just send your servant in. Hell, it's a potential carrier for Dragon's Breath (one more expendable than Familiar). As a rule, any spell getting you 100 % loyal, easily controllable, non-concentration underlings is good. Sure, the 1 hour duration is a bummer but that's a minor issue.

However, it wouldn't be among my first choices most of the time because the effects it provides are less powerful early on than others (far as level 1 Rituals go, Find Familiar and Detect Magic are probably the most irreplaceable). And since you can prepare 4 spells, you probably want to pick 4 active spells in addition to two rituals on the first level.

[ad_hoc]

I mean, suppose you have both the money and the slots that you have the choice. Do you spend the money or the slot?

The slot will come back for free when you rest. The money must be replenished by adventuring.

So how often will you be forced to expend all your slots before resting, on average?

I think no matter how cheap potions are, players won't bother buying something they can craft for essentially free. That is a basic, essential adventuring component, that you can get for free any time you happen to have a few bonus slots after adventuring, letting you save up for something more expensive.

The spell is just win-win.

If you've got slots left over then it doesn't matter what spells are good because the game is easy anyway.

If the game is difficult then those slots are very important to have. 1st level spells can be pretty darn good and impactful.

There is no finite supply of money. The game is adventuring. That's what you're doing.

This is why they are C Tier. If you're in an easy game where you have lots of extra resources then it doesn't really matter what you're doing.


Disguise Self and Protection From Evil and Good seem way too low. In my experience they are top picks in most campaigns, and are used well into higher tier play. They are both top choices for going into a ring of spell storing for a non-caster, for example.

Can you walk me through that?

How much better is Disguise Self than a Disguise Kit? And how often is this a thing that is useful? Physical interaction spoils it and a suspicious character makes an opposed check just like with a Disguise Kit.

Also, B Tier is just fine. There is nothing wrong with spells there. It's average. They're not bad. They're not great. Some spells need to be in that category. It's not either fantastic or awful.

For this purpose Alter Self is the go to. Disguise Self is something you make do with.

Protection From Evil and Good is both Concentration and only affects 1 character. The only thing going for it is that it lasts 10 minutes so if you are prepared you can cast it ahead of an expected encounter. It's only protecting 1 character though so it's probably going to have little impact and characters who can cast it probably have better things to Concentrate on. Like the better 1st level spells.

Magic item shops are not assumed in 5e so having specific magic items should not be factored into whether options are good in a general sense.

[Eldariel]

Can you walk me through that?

How much better is Disguise Self than a Disguise Kit? And how often is this a thing that is useful? Physical interaction spoils it and a suspicious character makes an opposed check just like with a Disguise Kit.

I'd say this is mostly a question of opportunity cost. A Wizard can learn any number of spells and prepare a vast amount. A character will generally only ever have two Tool proficiencies. Same with Cantrips; they're ironically way more indispensable than spells known since swapping them out is such a hassle if even possible. A spell known that has no costly components is about the cheapest possible resource to use to this end. A first level spell no less. It's also instantaneous so if you need to switch guise in a hurry, you need but excuse yourself for 6 seconds (womens' room seems like a fair option) to dismiss or recast the spell and come back as somebody totally different. Of course, these two combine very well.

The big advantages of Disguise Self over Alter Self are that you can change clothes and equipment to match, and that it doesn't cost Concentration. This can be very important for a variety of reasons (you need to Charm/Suggest somebody or whatever, you need your Concentration for those).

[ad_hoc]

I'd say this is mostly a question of opportunity cost. A Wizard can learn any number of spells and prepare a vast amount.

That is highly campaign dependent. There are no assumed magic item shops in 5e. Wizards get 2 spells on level up, the rest is usually getting lucky with treasure.

There are also more than just Wizards who have these spells on their lists.



It's also instantaneous so if you need to switch guise in a hurry, you need but excuse yourself for 6 seconds (womens' room seems like a fair option) to dismiss or recast the spell and come back as somebody totally different. Of course, these two combine very well.

The big advantages of Disguise Self over Alter Self are that you can change clothes and equipment to match, and that it doesn't cost Concentration. This can be very important for a variety of reasons (you need to Charm/Suggest somebody or whatever, you need your Concentration for those).

That leaves Disguise Self as the emergency disguise and Alter Self as the more elaborate and harder to fool one.

Keep in mind that Disguise Self doesn't do anything for things like voice. It can also be quite difficult to not physically interact with others during social situations. From shaking hands to having people bump into the character, Disguise Self is flimsy.

I will reiterate that B Tier isn't bad. It's a good spell. That's what B Tier is. What it isn't is on any priority list for me except for a specialized character or specialized campaign. And in that case spell rankings don't really matter.

[Pleh]

If you've got slots left over then it doesn't matter what spells are good because the game is easy anyway.

If the game is difficult then those slots are very important to have. 1st level spells can be pretty darn good and impactful.

There is no finite supply of money. The game is adventuring. That's what you're doing.

This is why they are C Tier. If you're in an easy game where you have lots of extra resources then it doesn't really matter what you're doing.

Why is money infinite while slots aren't? This also seems misleading, as this is clearly more a question of rate of flow than total quantity available. Both are theoretically limitless given sufficient access to replenishment (adventures for money, rests for slots).

You are guaranteed to have a number of slots available per day, but DMs don't actually have to assign any treasure to monsters at all if they feel it "isn't appropriate."

And you go on to argue with the next person that magic item purchasing isn't guaranteed. Healing potions are magic items.

A game where rests are plentiful compared to adventures is basically an easy game, but so is one where money and magic healing are easily accessible, as well.

[Nhym]

Another vote for Goodberry from a long time druid player. Does anyone else find it strange that a non-druid player is arguing with druid players about how good druid spells are?

[Chronos]

"Goodberry doesn't matter, because it's easy to get healing" is the wrong way to look at it. Rather, it's easy to get healing, and Goodberry is one of the reasons. In my most recent couple of sessions, I was playing my rogue, instead of my ranger. And every time someone got seriously hurt, someone at the table asked me "How many goodberries do we have left?", before they remembered that.

And yeah, sometimes you won't have any spell slots left at the end of the day. Them's the breaks. And sometimes, you have all your spell slots left at the end of the day. Goodberry means that on the first day of an adventure, you can have enough healing to bring multiple characters from the brink of death to full health, for free. And then again, on the first day after any day when you have a day to kick back and relax. Plus an unspecified amount more on all the other days.

But what if you are in one of those games where the casters routinely flop into their bedrolls at night completely spent-- What there? Goodberry is still a good spell in those situations, because it's the most healing you can get out of a first-level slot, so you using your slots for goodberries means less slots used (by you or other casters) on other healing spells. With a maxed ability score, Cure Wounds averages 9.5 points per slot, while Goodberry is 10. A single casting of Healing Word will pop one dying party member back on his feet, while a single casting of Goodberry can do it for 10.

[RSP]

Not sure why you think Hex doesn’t scale well. Have you played a Warlock into higher levels? One spell slot, that you get back on a SR, for all day +d6 damage per hit is good.

On an EB using Warlock, that’s essentially covering the adventuring day at level 5. And then you can reuse that slot after a SR, while still holding the effects.

At 11, getting +3d6 damage a round, for essentially free, while using your spell slots to drop Synaptic Static is fantastic.

I think the issue with this type of list, is that different builds would find different spells good/bad. For instance, if you’re more of a control-based Warlock, Hex isn’t good due to Conc. The Blastlock (and Bladelock) finds it a lot more useful, in general, due to its added damage and duration.

[Zuras]

That leaves Disguise Self as the emergency disguise and Alter Self as the more elaborate and harder to fool one.

Keep in mind that Disguise Self doesn't do anything for things like voice. It can also be quite difficult to not physically interact with others during social situations. From shaking hands to having people bump into the character, Disguise Self is flimsy.

I will reiterate that B Tier isn't bad. It's a good spell. That's what B Tier is. What it isn't is on any priority list for me except for a specialized character or specialized campaign. And in that case spell rankings don't really matter.

Due to the Concentration limitation, I’ve literally never seen anyone use Alter Self in play, ever, except high level Moon Druids who get it for free and don’t have Disguise Self anyway. Disguise Self, on the other hand, works with Detect Thoughts, which makes an amazingly effective combo. It’s gold on any character with expertise in deception.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Due to the Concentration limitation, I’ve literally never seen anyone use Alter Self in play, ever, except high level Moon Druids who get it for free and don’t have Disguise Self anyway. Disguise Self, on the other hand, works with Detect Thoughts, which makes an amazingly effective combo. It’s gold on any character with expertise in deception.

Agreed. I've had access to both spells before, and I stick with Disguise Self. It pairs well with Suggestion, or Enhance Ability/Cha, to make those Cha skills work overtime. I know that Alter Self is the better effect, but being non-concentration makes any spell a tier better in my opinion.

At the very least, I'd put the two spells on the same tier (of course, Alter Self is 2nd level and doesn't belong on this list).

[stoutstien]

Alter self, while not a lv 1spell, is a solid buff for monks early/mid game.
I guess you can count it as a level 1 spell if you're using the Alchemist artificer EE for the effect.

[ad_hoc]

Another vote for Goodberry from a long time druid player. Does anyone else find it strange that a non-druid player is arguing with druid players about how good druid spells are?

Who isn't a "druid player" here?


Not sure why you think Hex doesn’t scale well. Have you played a Warlock into higher levels? One spell slot, that you get back on a SR, for all day +d6 damage per hit is good.


It's not all day as it is Concentration.

It uses up your Concentration.

And +d6 damage on cantrips are a minor contribution to important battles. High level spells are powerful. Much much much more powerful than a few points of damage.



Due to the Concentration limitation, I’ve literally never seen anyone use Alter Self in play, ever, except high level Moon Druids who get it for free and don’t have Disguise Self anyway. Disguise Self, on the other hand, works with Detect Thoughts, which makes an amazingly effective combo. It’s gold on any character with expertise in deception.

It's just such a flimsy illusion.

I guess that comes down to DM adjudication? I wouldn't trust it for long in play.

I can see it as an emergency measure but it's pretty niche. It's only the one character too so it isn't like it's going to get the party out of a jam. And this is a group game.

It's not bad. It's average.

[KorvinStarmast]

I've just never seen it have a substantial effect on the game.
I played a life cleric with magic initiate Druid from levels 1 through 6 before retiring her.
We never needed healing potions. Our party did not start using them until the cleric retired.

Our DM treated healing potions as hard to come by, hard to find, nearly impossible to buy.
Every night before she went to bed, cleric cast goodberry. In a six person party, between Preserve life and goodberry, and me teaching the other players "use your darned HD to recover HP, damnit!" I only ever needed to cast Healing word when someone went down in combat, or cure wounds for an RP situation or an unusual tactical situation.

As to food: we never had to sweat it. (Our barbarian usually foraged anyway after I cast guidance. "Meat's back on the menu, boys!")

As to the left overs: DM ruled that two to three goodberries fed a horse or a mule. Handy there also, but not all tables will necessarily go with that.

Goodberry was a very significant factor in my cleric using spells for anything but healing for six levels.
Bless was bread and butter, guiding bolt now and again, inflict wounds now and again, Command and Sanctuary a lot, Hold Person a lot (so that our Barbarian and Paladin could wreck things that I held), and finally Spiritual Guardian.
Lesser Restoration a lot too, thanks to so many poison using monsters in my brother's bestiary.

[Zuras]

It's just such a flimsy illusion.

I guess that comes down to DM adjudication? I wouldn't trust it for long in play.

I can see it as an emergency measure but it's pretty niche. It's only the one character too so it isn't like it's going to get the party out of a jam. And this is a group game.

It's not bad. It's average.

How often do you let people into your personal space close enough to touch you? I have literally never had the flimsiness of the illusion come into play, because normally you’re using it to run a bluff or just get past guards.

In a heavy social campaign, you can take the Actor feat. In a normal campaign, it’s not like the guards know everyone by sight. It’s not useful every day in every encounter, but when it comes up it can be amazing. I have seen epic Bard moments in multiple campaigns using Disguise Self.

[KorvinStarmast]

I have seen epic Bard moments in multiple campaigns using Disguise Self. My gloom stalker with a 9 Cha used it on a few occasions to get past a social obstacle in a city. And also failed a few times, once with rather hilarious and dire consequences.

The more memorable faux pas had to do with a noble woman; I disguised myself as her aide, who was about my size, with the intention of robbing some stuff from her private chambers. (No rogue in the party, I had criminal background ...)

Oops, she was there, in her private chambers, expecting me (her aide) to come and visit .... and she was also expecting intimate shenannigans since her husband was out of town on a trading voyage.
Needless to say, the "on close inspection" bit failed rather badly; my next mission was to Get Out of the mansion ... everyone at the table besides me thought it was hilarious. My leaping from the window into the garden was a long enough drop to take 2d6 HP and a few of the guards with crossbows got shots at me that hit before I finally evaded by going over the wall fleeing down various city streets and alleyways ...

Observation by our cleric: "you made a wise choice to be a Ranger rather than a Rogue; stick with what you are good at!"

[Addaran]

Protection from Good and Evil should not be C. It's truely amazing for for Eldritch Knight, Paladins and the like. Advantage is usually better then the +2 AC from Shield of Faith ( who's B) and it also protect against Charm, Fear and Possession. You can even take it with magic initiate for non-casting martial characters. The range of enemy types it cover is pretty huge.

For disguise self, yes physical examination will reveal it, but only if you actually change something that's touch related (like clothes or features). You can easily just change the color of the skin, hair and eyes. You can also had something like rotten teeth, scars or moles somewhere people won't touch you, right under the eyes or cleavage. The drunk that randomly grope quests won't have much credibility.

[diplomancer]

How often do you let people into your personal space close enough to touch you? I have literally never had the flimsiness of the illusion come into play, because normally you’re using it to run a bluff or just get past guards.

In a heavy social campaign, you can take the Actor feat. In a normal campaign, it’s not like the guards know everyone by sight. It’s not useful every day in every encounter, but when it comes up it can be amazing. I have seen epic Bard moments in multiple campaigns using Disguise Self.

Wouldn't a lot of those epic moments just require a disguise kit, though? I'm playing a Bard now, a charlatan with actor feat, that, for character reasons, prefers to use the kit, not the spell, and, yes, I've done a lot of epic Bard moments with hir.

Can't be done instantly, unlike the spell, of course, and I can imagine that this is useful in a pinch. But doesn't require slots or a valuable known spell, can't be dispelled, can't be detected by spells. I even discarded the possibility of having a hat of disguises, both for the aforementioned character reasons and for the drawbacks of the spell.

[ad_hoc]

How often do you let people into your personal space close enough to touch you? I have literally never had the flimsiness of the illusion come into play, because normally you’re using it to run a bluff or just get past guards.

In a heavy social campaign, you can take the Actor feat. In a normal campaign, it’s not like the guards know everyone by sight. It’s not useful every day in every encounter, but when it comes up it can be amazing. I have seen epic Bard moments in multiple campaigns using Disguise Self.

Sounds like a really good fit for B Tier to me. Definitely S Tier in specific campaigns. But then that is true of many of the utility spells.


Protection from Good and Evil should not be C. It's truely amazing for for Eldritch Knight, Paladins and the like. Advantage is usually better then the +2 AC from Shield of Faith ( who's B) and it also protect against Charm, Fear and Possession. You can even take it with magic initiate for non-casting martial characters. The range of enemy types it cover is pretty huge.

For disguise self, yes physical examination will reveal it, but only if you actually change something that's touch related (like clothes or features). You can easily just change the color of the skin, hair and eyes. You can also had something like rotten teeth, scars or moles somewhere people won't touch you, right under the eyes or cleavage. The drunk that randomly grope quests won't have much credibility.

Shield of Faith is a Bonus Action.

Protection from Evil and Good gets better as levels go up and 1st level spell slots are not as valuable. Its saving grace is that it lasts 10 minutes so it can be cast ahead of time just in case.

If a player were to ask me whether it was a good thing to take I would caution them about it and say that yes it could be good but you also might be disappointed by it which puts it in C Tier to me.


A player asks me my thoughts on a spell:

'Yeah that's a great spell' - S Tier
'Yeah that spell is pretty good' - A Tier
'That spell is a decent choice you should be satisfied with it' - B Tier
'That spell could be good but I advise caution when taking it' - C Tier
'That spell is either pretty terrible or is unlikely to come up/make a difference in the game often enough to be worth taking' - D Tier

[RSP]

It's not all day as it is Concentration.

It uses up your Concentration.

And +d6 damage on cantrips are a minor contribution to important battles. High level spells are powerful. Much much much more powerful than a few points of damage.


It is all day duration. You deciding that you want to use your concentration on something else doesn’t change that.

As I said, some builds will have conflicts and others won’t (which was my criticism of these types of lists). I have Warlock 12 I’m currently playing that has Hex up all the time. He can Eldritch Smite with his slots. He can Synaptic Static. Dimension Door, Armor of Agathys, Counterspell and Dispel Magic can all be used while keeping Hex up.

And Hex continues through SRs. And when out of slots, I can still weapon attack or EB with Hex.

I can also choose, if I think it’s the best tactic, to drop Sickening Radiance or Fear. I still have that option. It doesn’t change how effective Hex is at adding damage.

With 3 EBs a turn, I’m regularly adding 7-10.5 damage per turn, all day. And this is while having full spell slots.

It scales perfectly fine for a Warlock.

[Chronos]

OK, yeah, you can choose to keep your concentration on it, but then it gets even worse, because it means that you're not concentrating on anything else. Most of the best warlock spells are concentration.

Nor do you always have the choice of when you're stopping concentrating. Yeah, you try to keep to the back ranks, but enemies will still occasionally hit you hard enough to disrupt you, especially if you're not using your concentration on things that make you harder to hit, like Darkness.

[ad_hoc]

It is all day duration. You deciding that you want to use your concentration on something else doesn’t change that.


Concentration spells are lost if you take damage and fail the resulting save.


OK, yeah, you can choose to keep your concentration on it, but then it gets even worse, because it means that you're not concentrating on anything else. Most of the best warlock spells are concentration.

Nor do you always have the choice of when you're stopping concentrating. Yeah, you try to keep to the back ranks, but enemies will still occasionally hit you hard enough to disrupt you, especially if you're not using your concentration on things that make you harder to hit, like Darkness.

Yeah definitely.

I also reject the notion of a 'back rank'. It's super easy for monsters to just go approach characters in 5e if the DM wants them to.

[RSP]

Concentration spells are lost if you take damage and fail the resulting save.


Sure. But that’s true of all Concentration spells, not just Hex.

Upcasting Spiritual Guardians, Fly, Heroism, etc. all have the same issue.

Your statement was that Hex doesn’t scale well, which isn’t true. Darkness and Protection from Evil don’t scale well; Hex scales fine.

[ad_hoc]

Sure. But that’s true of all Concentration spells, not just Hex.

Upcasting Spiritual Guardians, Fly, Heroism, etc. all have the same issue.

Your statement was that Hex doesn’t scale well, which isn’t true. Darkness and Protection from Evil don’t scale well; Hex scales fine.

Again, that +d6 damage on cantrips just isn't a big impact on battles compare to level 3+ spells.

Using up spell slots and concentration on cantrips isn't playing the game wrong but it's far from choosing more powerful options.

[col_impact]

Again, that +d6 damage on cantrips just isn't a big impact on battles compare to level 3+ spells.

Using up spell slots and concentration on cantrips isn't playing the game wrong but it's far from choosing more powerful options.

{Scrubbed}

[LudicSavant]

B Tier:

Chromatic Orb

Chromatic Orb is kinda lame. No half damage on a miss. Single target. 50gp component at a level where that actually hurts.

Why is this rated higher than things like these?


C Tier:
Armor of Agathys
Goodberry
Protection From Evil and Good
Sanctuary

PFG&E is much better than Blur (a 2nd level spell) so long as you're up against a creature type it applies against. And it covers about half of the enemy types in the game.

Armor of Agathys is a great non-Concentration buff which can combo very effectively with a variety of things.

Goodberry is very abusable. How the heck did it end up all the way down in C tier?

Sanctuary is a bonus action non-concentration buff that blocks attacks. You can even use it while going full aggro as long as you're cool with it only lasting one round.


What makes it better than a Healing Potion?

Well first of all, healing potions gobble up your funds. Second of all, they can't synergize with the same features (Goodberry has an especially noteworthy interaction with Life Cleric 1).

Also, you don't cast Goodberry when you wake up, you cast it right before you go to sleep with your leftover spell slots. You then have all of your Goodberries and spell slots for tomorrow. That ability to hedge your resources alone is enough to make it top tier.

[RSP]

Again, that +d6 damage on cantrips just isn't a big impact on battles compare to level 3+ spells.

Using up spell slots and concentration on cantrips isn't playing the game wrong but it's far from choosing more powerful options.

First, it’s not just a damage spell, nor is it only for cantrips, but that’s missing the point.

You stated that you believe it’s “A tier” at first, but it doesn’t scale well and gets worse as the game progresses. So, why is +d6 damage per attack for an hour, through level 1-4, A Tier; but adding that same bonus all day, on every attack, not?

As you seem to think it’s only for EB, let’s see how it scales with EB:

Levels 1-4, when EBing, it adds ~3.5 damage on to a ~5.5 damage spell. So it adds 63% more damage.

Levels 5-10, it adds ~7 damage on to a ~11 damage spell. So it adds 63% more damage.

(Etc)

Now look at Fireball. Upcasting that increases its base is ~28 damage. Upcasting it adds 3.5 per level, or 12.5%. That’s a lot less of a beneficial scaling, though let’s double it to account for Hex’s upcasting effect occurring every other level. So 25% increase for Fireball vs. 63% for Hex.

And again, on a Warlock, you can have it in effect while not losing a spell slot. That alone makes it a fantastic spell.

This applies to Bladelocks who are using weapon attacks as well.

“I do ~3.5 damage per hit, and have all my spell slots? Yes please.”

Yes, it’s Concentration, but that’s part of it at level 1, and has nothing to do with it’s scaling.

Just out of curiosity, what spells do you think compete with Hex for Concentration? I’m not saying there aren’t other choices, I’m just curious what you’re thinking.

[ad_hoc]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

These insults really need to stop.

I have been playing D&D since the mid 90s and have played 5e since it was released.

I have played strategy games professionally and I crush the local boardgame scene in a very large city. I have won international tournaments in heavy games.

In other words I'm very good at games.

I have these kinds of arguments with people over strategy games. Even when I crush them they will still make arguments about why their strategy is superior. It happens a lot. So I am fully aware that we're going to have discussions and arguments here that won't be resolved. D&D is not a competitive strategy game and it is impossible to actually resolve these arguments because of that. The way to resolve them in competitive games is to see who wins.

D&D is an RPG and doesn't work like that. Every game is different. The point is the discussion. I made the list for myself but also shared it to spur conversation.


First, it’s not just a damage spell, nor is it only for cantrips, but that’s missing the point.

You stated that you believe it’s “A tier” at first, but it doesn’t scale well and gets worse as the game progresses. So, why is +d6 damage per attack for an hour, through level 1-4, A Tier; but adding that same bonus all day, on every attack, not?


I have actually amended it to be B Tier.

That doesn't mean it is a bad spell.

I get the feeling that people are interpreting anything less than A (or even S) to mean it is a bad spell.

I have made a new definition of my tiers that I hope is more clear.

A player asks me my thoughts on a spell:

'Yeah that's a great spell' - S Tier
'Yeah that spell is pretty good' - A Tier
'That spell is a decent choice you should be satisfied with it' - B Tier
'That spell could be good but I advise caution when taking it' - C Tier
'That spell is either pretty terrible or is unlikely to come up/make a difference in the game often enough to be worth taking' - D Tier

[col_impact]

These insults really need to stop.

I have been playing D&D since the mid 90s and have played 5e since it was released.

I have played strategy games professionally and I crush the local boardgame scene in a very large city. I have won international tournaments in heavy games.

In other words I'm very good at games.

I have these kinds of arguments with people over strategy games. Even when I crush them they will still make arguments about why their strategy is superior. It happens a lot. So I am fully aware that we're going to have discussions and arguments here that won't be resolved. D&D is not a competitive strategy game and it is impossible to actually resolve these arguments because of that. The way to resolve them in competitive games is to see who wins.

D&D is an RPG and doesn't work like that. Every game is different. The point is the discussion. I made the list for myself but also shared
{Scrubbed}

Ludic Savant, you are the most qualified to kick off such a revised list. Should you do it or shall I do it?

[LudicSavant]

Protection From Evil and Good is both Concentration and only affects 1 character. The only thing going for it is that it lasts 10 minutes so if you are prepared you can cast it ahead of an expected encounter. It's only protecting 1 character though so it's probably going to have little impact and characters who can cast it probably have better things to Concentrate on. Like the better 1st level spells.

10 minutes is a good duration; enough for multiple encounters in a dungeoneering scenario.

Also, the "only protects one character" and "takes Concentration" aspect applies to other things that give lesser defensive benefits that you rated higher, like Shield of Faith.

[Chronos]

Yes, any concentration spell has the same drawbacks as Hex, that you lose it if you get hit too hard or if you want to concentrate on anything else. And how big a deal that is depends on how long the duration is, and when you're likely to cast the spell, and its effects. Like, if I cast Hypnotic Pattern, I might lose a few rounds of duration to losing concentration, but I'm still getting most of the benefit. Plus, by taking some of the enemies out of the fight, I'm decreasing the odds that I will get hit. Suggestion has a similar duration to Hex, but I'm likely to be casting that in out-of-combat situations, where nobody's even going to try to knock me out of it, and I expect to have a good while when I'm less likely to need other spells. Or if I do cast it in combat, I probably don't care about all the hours of duration, because my party mates are going to kill (or tie up or whatever) the target after they finish off everyone else, anyway.

With Hex, though, you're usually casting it in combat, when you're likely to want to use other spells, and when it makes you more of a target, not less. And if you get hit or cast another concentration spell at any time in the next hour, you gained no benefit at all from upcasting it. Or if you do cast it out of combat, the duration's usually going to be irrelevant anyway, because the target needs to be dead to transfer it. So, no, you really don't get much from upcasting Hex, which is an issue given that the only class that gets it natively is a class that has to upcast everything.

[ad_hoc]

10 minutes is a good duration; enough for multiple encounters in a dungeoneering scenario.

Also, the "only protects one character" and "takes Concentration" aspect applies to other things that give lesser defensive benefits that you rated higher, like Shield of Faith.

What is your argument for it, B?

I see it as a high C so I'm not super opposed to putting it in B. It just strikes me as a spell I would caution a player about. Like, that might not be as effective as you read it as at first.

It's not something you ideally want to cast in combat because an action is too pricey. Precasting it means it could be wasted either by not having any combats or not having it apply to what you are fighting. While it dissuades a character from being attacked which is a good thing for a low AC character it doesn't actually take away attacks from those creatures. They can attack others. This is true of Shield of Faith as well but as it can be cast in combat it can be cast more tactically.

They are different enough that it is hard to compare them.


Chromatic Orb is kinda lame. No half damage on a miss. Single target. 50gp component at a level where that actually hurts.

I personally don't like Chromatic Orb. I just think it is the middle of the line single damage 1st level spell.



Armor of Agathys is a great non-Concentration buff which can combo very effectively with a variety of things.


5 temporary hit points is really just not very good. The damage won't even trigger if it isn't a melee attack.




Goodberry is very abusable. How the heck did it end up all the way down in C tier?

Because healing potions and hit dice. It is redundant.



Sanctuary is a bonus action non-concentration buff that blocks attacks. You can even use it while going full aggro as long as you're cool with it only lasting one round.

It doesn't use up their attacks though. Abilities that actually block attacks are good. Sanctuary doesn't do that.




Well first of all, healing potions gobble up your funds. Second of all, they can't synergize with the same features (Goodberry has an especially noteworthy interaction with Life Cleric 1).

This isn't a list of what spells are good on specific characters who have specific special abilities.

Gobble up your funds for what purpose? Buying healing potions. Past the first couple of levels I have never been short on gold. There is just so much of it.

It's not an infinite supply but costing an extra 50GP for not having a spell take up a precious spell known slot is a much better alternative.

[stoutstien]

What is your argument for it, B?

I see it as a high C so I'm not super opposed to putting it in B. It just strikes me as a spell I would caution a player about. Like, that might not be as effective as you read it as at first.

It's not something you ideally want to cast in combat because an action is too pricey. Precasting it means it could be wasted either by not having any combats or not having it apply to what you are fighting. While it dissuades a character from being attacked which is a good thing for a low AC character it doesn't actually take away attacks from those creatures. They can attack others. This is true of Shield of Faith as well but as it can be cast in combat it can be cast more tactically.

They are different enough that it is hard to compare them.

Protection from good/evil is solid B IMO. The 10 minute duration makes it a tool in potential social interactions with anyone on the list on top of the combat benefits.

[RSP]

I have actually amended it to be B Tier.

That doesn't mean it is a bad spell.

I get the feeling that people are interpreting anything less than A (or even S) to mean it is a bad spell.

I have made a new definition of my tiers that I hope is more clear.

You may want to actually amend it on your OP list then, as it currently states it’s A Tier.

Regardless, I’m still wondering what you think is a better use of Warlock slots. As far as Warlock 1st level spells, you state that using a slot on Hellish Rebuke would be better, and Cause Fear would be just as good, going by your ratings.

I disagree with both of those assessments. You also note that Warlock spells should be rated as such, which means at 1st level, only having one casting per SR.

Cause Fear is also Concentration and provides a save every round, for the not horribly effective Frightened condition. This doesn’t even have the added effects of Fear, which would be a much better selection of spell and means Cause Fear only effectively scales one spell level and so would add another target w/in 30’ when upcasting with a 2nd level spell. So instead of increasing damage output by 63%, you might give someone Disadvantage for a turn or two.

So if going with Cause Fear, you can maybe give a meh condition to a target, and then I’m assuming you’ll EB for the remainder of the encounter(s) until a SR. Or you can do 63% more damage output every round, for an hour.

Hellish Rebuke, you can do ~11 damage, or ~5.5 if they save. And that’s only after they hit you (which at level 1, may mean you’re no longer standing to be able to cast). And you knock this for not scaling well, too. So, presumably, it’s at its best at level 1. So you might be able to kill whomever hit you (if you’re still conscious). And at all other times, use EB.

Or, you can do 63% more damage every round for an hour, quite possibly killing whomever would have hit you, before they do so, making it a much better choice than waiting to be hit to use HR.

So again, how are these better choices for a Warlock? You admit Warlock spells need to be viewed in how they are used by a Warlock, then cease to do that when actually rating the spells.

[ad_hoc]

You may want to actually amend it on your OP list then, as it currently states it’s A Tier.

I have this posted not just on here so sometimes I miss an ammendment.



Regardless, I’m still wondering what you think is a better use of Warlock slots. As far as Warlock 1st level spells, you state that using a slot on Hellish Rebuke would be better, and Cause Fear would be just as good, going by your ratings.

I disagree with both of those assessments. You also note that Warlock spells should be rated as such, which means at 1st level, only having one casting per SR.

With 1 attack/round as a 1st level spell it takes 4 rounds for Hex to match the damage of Hellish Rebuke.

So that is either 1 combat or just over 1 combat. That is damage over time which is not as strong as immediate damage. It's better to kill enemies now rather than later basically. This is one of the big weaknesses of Hex that is often overlooked.

The player also may choose not to use Hellish Rebuke if they think it won't have a good effect on the battle.

The Hex needs to be cast straight away and then the rest of the combat needs to be spent making attacks for it to be worth it. Limiting what you are able to do in order to catch up is a mark against it. Maybe you want to Dodge or administer a healing potion, or whatever.

Hex also might be lost earlier than those 4 rounds. It might also last longer but I think getting more than 4 rounds of attacks is not going to happen more often than getting less than 4 rounds of attacks.

Once we hit 3rd level things get worse. Now it takes 6 rounds to match the damage.

Once we hit 5th level then we have 3rd level spells and those are usually better but Hellish Rebuke might still be useful as burst damage.



Cause Fear is also Concentration and provides a save every round, for the not horribly effective Frightened condition.

Frightened can be a very powerful effect depending on what you are facing. Remember, the creature cannot approach. Against the right enemy that may nullify their attacking ability.

Cause Fear isn't a Warlock only spell either it is also a Wizard spell.

I think a lot of people are looking for more nuance in these spell rankings. They're not numerical. They're broad tiers based on whether a player would be satisfied with the spell in an average campaign.

B Tier means satisfied. C Tier means have caution. Cause Fear is low B to me, Hex is high B until it gets worse for Warlocks.

[LudicSavant]

Gobble up your funds for what purpose? Buying healing potions. Past the first couple of levels I have never been short on gold. There is just so much of it.

That's your campaign. Other campaigns might have less gold to go around, or have high-value uses for gold (such as buying or crafting magic items). One cannot simply assume that all campaigns will have unlimited funds for buying all the healing potions you'll ever desire. That's exactly the sort of thing that is highly variable between tables.


Because healing potions and hit dice. It is redundant.

It's not redundant at all. Hit dice can't actually restore that much, and require an hour of Team Monster leaving you alone to use. Healing potions chew through gold at a rapid pace.

If you think short rests are a lot of health, then that just means Team Monster isn't doing much damage in your games. Difficulty can rise without cap in D&D. The measure of effectiveness is how high that pressure can be ratcheted up before you break, and let me tell you, short rests only go so far when you're playing at some tables. If you just have short rest healing, then you can take less attrition pressure than if you have short rest healing and Goodberries.

And Goodberries aren't exactly a small addition. We're talking hundreds of HP if you're converting enough of yesterday's leftover spell slots with Life Cleric 1.


5 temporary hit points is really just not very good. The damage won't even trigger if it isn't a melee attack.

Armor of Agathys shines with upcasting and combos. It's not just for popping 5 temp HP.


It's not something you ideally want to cast in combat because an action is too pricey.

It's not a spell you use often in combat, it's a spell you use to convert information (scouting, divination, knowledge, educated guesses about what you're gonna find in the Tomb of the Necrodancer, etc) into an advantage.

[RSP]

Yes, any concentration spell has the same drawbacks as Hex, that you lose it if you get hit too hard or if you want to concentrate on anything else...

...With Hex, though, you're usually casting it in combat, when you're likely to want to use other spells, and when it makes you more of a target, not less. And if you get hit or cast another concentration spell at any time in the next hour, you gained no benefit at all from upcasting it. Or if you do cast it out of combat, the duration's usually going to be irrelevant anyway, because the target needs to be dead to transfer it. So, no, you really don't get much from upcasting Hex, which is an issue given that the only class that gets it natively is a class that has to upcast everything.

That’s just a completely false statement: “So, no, you really don't get much from upcasting Hex.” You get up to 24 hours of increased damage. And even if you lose concentration, you’ve still benefited from all the extra damage you’ve done up to that point.

For your Hypnotic Pattern example, which is one of the best 3rd level spells in the game and which you’re comparing to a 1st level spell to try and show me how bad said first level spell is (which is kind of a ridiculous notion to begin with as go ahead and compare any 1st level spell to HP and see how it holds up, or compare any spell with an “S Tier” spell two levels higher, but whatever). I’ll bite.

I’m assuming you’re only using HP when a) you have multiple enemies, and b) that are grouped together. I’m also assuming your Warlock is 5th level as, otherwise, Hex wins hands down, for obvious reasons. So when these situations don’t apply, Hex wins. (And yes, you can still choose to cast HP when you have Hex up. If you had cast Hex before a SR, you literally have lost nothing, but gained all the added damage since you cast Hex).

Its really difficult to say without picking actual enemies (or statting the casting warlock) how many would fail their saves. It is noteworthy that the spell could fail to affect any targets. Also of note, it can affect your teammates. Also of note, it only takes an action to undo the effects of a failed save.

That said, I’m also assuming that after casting HP, you’re going to be using EB anyway, in part because of limited spell slots.

So you can use a spell slot and probably take up a few actions from enemies, depending on how many fail their saves. Or you can do 63% more damage the entire time, for 8 hours. And have that and all your spell slots after you SR. The specific encounter will determine if HP is worth it or not, but they’ll be plenty of scenarios where it isn’t worth it. Doing 63% more damage is kind of universally good in combat.

Alternatively, you could still have Hex up for another 7 hours, 59 mins and 30 seconds, or so. And you could rest and still have Hex up, and all your slots for other spells.

So which is better, casting HP, or having Hex up, doing 63% more damage, and throwing upcast Shatters? Probably depends on the encounter, your play style, or what your group needs at that point (as I said when I started critiquing this list).

Also note, HP doesn’t scale. So you can still have Hex up, doing 63% more damage with your EBs all day, while also throwing out the occasional Synaptic Static, when HP is doing the same effect for 2 spell levels higher.

[diplomancer]

It will depend on how generous your DM is, but an Unseen Servant can be a literal party saver.

My character casts it as a ritual somewhat habitually and tells the servant "follow me from 15' away and pour this flask down my throat if I go down".

Is this "a simple task that a human servant could do"? Yes. Is the task "completed" until it pours the flask down my throat? No. So you don't need to use your bonus action during combat to have it bring you back from zero. Notice that a familiar probably is not capable of doing that, not having the proper anatomy to open a bottle.

It's saved us from TPK at least twice.

[LudicSavant]

It will depend on how generous your DM is, but an Unseen Servant can be a literal party saver.

My character casts it as a ritual somewhat habitually and tells the servant "follow me from 15' away and pour this flask down my throat if I go down".

Is this "a simple task that a human servant could do"? Yes. Is the task "completed" until it pours the flask down my throat? No. So you don't need to use your bonus action during combat to have it bring you back from zero. Notice that a familiar probably is not capable of doing that, not having the proper anatomy to open a bottle.

It's saved us from TPK at least twice.

Unseen servant has proven to be a great spell in my experience. Being able to have a little buddy around all day (since you can just keep recasting it while moving) that can use items and such for you is lovely. Doesn't deserve a D.


They can attack others. Yes. And all the usual strategies to deal with that apply.

[ad_hoc]

That's your campaign. Other campaigns might have less gold to go around, or have high-value uses for gold (such as buying or crafting magic items). One cannot simply assume that all campaigns will have unlimited funds for buying all the healing potions you'll ever desire. That's exactly the sort of thing that is highly variable between tables.


I am assuming default 5e.

If we try to take into consideration all possible campaigns then we can't make a list at all.


Armor of Agathys shines with upcasting and combos. It's not just for popping 5 temp HP.


Then it isn't a 1st level spell anymore.

I don't see how it can be better than 'take caution when choosing this'.


It will depend on how generous your DM is, but an Unseen Servant can be a literal party saver.

My character casts it as a ritual somewhat habitually and tells the servant "follow me from 15' away and pour this flask down my throat if I go down".

Is this "a simple task that a human servant could do"? Yes. Is the task "completed" until it pours the flask down my throat? No. So you don't need to use your bonus action during combat to have it bring you back from zero. Notice that a familiar probably is not capable of doing that, not having the proper anatomy to open a bottle.

It's saved us from TPK at least twice.

'You can mentally command the servant to move up to 15 feet and interact with an object'.

You can't 'delay' this action. It can also only move up to 15 feet to do it. You tell it to do the thing and it does it. The spell is very clear.

What you are doing is not what the spell says. Use a Healing Potion is also not an object interaction, it's a use a magic item action.

[LudicSavant]

I am assuming default 5e. So where exactly is it established that "abundant funds for all the healing potions you could want and nothing else worthwhile to spend that gold on" is default 5e?


Then it isn't a 1st level spell anymore.

I guess, but slot versatility is a factor to consider when learning or prepping any of these spells.

So you're saying that you're not considering slot versatility as a factor for rating these spells?


You can't 'delay' this action. It can also only move up to 15 feet to do it. You tell it to do the thing and it does it.

That's how I read it as well. I like to use it before my Wizard has a lot of bonus actions, and have them toss oil squares and whatnot.


Use a Healing Potion is also not an object interaction, it's a use a magic item action.

You're conflating the phrase "interact with an object" with "the Use an Object action." The books are very particular when they mean the latter, and capitalize it (such as in the description of the Thief ability, or on the page it says that potions are not a function of the Use an Object action).

When an object requires your action for its use (and only when it requires your action for its use), you take the Use an Object action, unless it's a magic item.

The general consensus I've seen in rules question forums is that you can use potions with Unseen Servant, because potions are still objects that you can interact with, they just don't use the Use an Object action to do so.

[ad_hoc]

So where exactly is it established that "abundant funds for all the healing potions you could want and nothing else worthwhile to spend that gold on" is default 5e?



So you're saying that you're not considering slot versatility as a factor for rating these spells?



That's how I read it as well. I like to use it before my Wizard has a lot of bonus actions, and have them toss oil squares and whatnot.



You're conflating the phrase "interact with an object" with "the Use an Object action." The books are very particular when they mean the latter, and capitalize it (such as in the description of the Thief ability, or on the page it says that potions are not a function of the Use an Object action).

When an object requires your action for its use (and only when it requires your action for its use), you take the Use an Object action, unless it's a magic item.

The general consensus I've seen in rules question forums is that you can use potions with Unseen Servant, because potions are still objects that you can interact with, they just don't use the Use an Object action to do so.

If we're doing that then the Unseen Servant can use a Wand of Magic Missiles.

It is really reaching to try to flagrantly abuse the rules.

The wording on it is clear what it does.

[LudicSavant]

So where exactly is it established that your idea of how much wealth you get, and what you can spend it on, is default 5e? Still want to hear that one.


If we're doing that then the Unseen Servant can use a Wand of Magic Missiles.

Only if the DM rules that that's a simple task comparable to mending, folding clothes, or pouring a drink.

Many people seem to think that administering a potion fits into that category (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/67513/can-an-unseen-servant-administer-a-potion-during-combat?rq=1). And frankly I don't think it's cool that you're accusing them of "flagrantly trying to abuse the rules."

Again, you are confusing the "Use an Object" action (which governs a very specific subset of object interactions) with "interacting with an object" (which is more inclusive).

If for some reason you are still think that the Use an Object interaction is analagous with "interacting with an object," the Use an Object text even goes so far as to note that it's not what you normally use when interacting with objects.

[KorvinStarmast]

Many people seem to think that administering a potion fits into that category (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/67513/can-an-unseen-servant-administer-a-potion-during-combat?rq=1). And frankly I don't think it's cool that you're accusing them of "flagrantly trying to abuse the rules." Thank you :smallsmile: for linking what I was going to link to as I saw the discussion on Unseen Servant.

Unseen Servant cheese has a long and noble history going back to the late 1970's when the spell was introduced, but in this case I don't think that it is cheese for this edition (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/67528/22566).

[LudicSavant]

Thank you :smallsmile: for linking what I was going to link to as I saw the discussion on Unseen Servant.

Unseen Servant cheese has a long and noble history going back to the late 1970's when the spell was introduced, but in this case I don't think that it is cheese for this edition (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/67528/22566).

No problem :smallsmile:


Use a Healing Potion is also not an object interaction

Using a potion is indeed interacting with an object, it's just not the Use an Object action. Those terms are not analogous.

1) Magic items are objects that you interact with.

If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action. Some magic items and other special objects always require an action to use, as stated in their descriptions.

2) Magic items are not a function of the "Use an Object" action.

If an item requires an action to activate, that action isn't a function of the Use an Object action, so a feature such as the rogue's Fast Hands can't be used to activate the item.

3) The "Use an Object" action is not used every time or even most times you interact with objects. They do not mean the same thing.

You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of an attack. When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action.

4) Unseen Servant interacts with objects. It is not limited to the Use an Object action.

Once on each of your turns as a bonus action, you can mentally command the servant to move up to 15 feet and interact with an object.

[TheUser]

Not considering slot flexibility is foolish.

Level 1 spells slots are your highest level slot for the shortest amount of time of any other D&D spell. It almost makes complete sense to plan around using them with higher level slots with rare exceptions (like shield and absorb elements).

There are so many spells that belong in S-tier off this merit alone. Armor of Agathys is nothing special..but if you drop it into a 5th level slot and have some other forms of protection (resistance of any kind) it starts doing crazy levels of damage. It has no concentration and lasts a full hour. Bane and Bless are both amazing. Bless DOES target 4 people. It just uses a level 2 slot to do so....

Having find familiar so high but Unseen Servant so low also makes no sense to me. One costs gold, the other doesn't and unseen servant has all the utility out of combat with none of the cost.

Tenser's floating disc is so freaking useful.

wait...why is sleep all the way in D-tier? You know it grants auto-crits right? Like...everyone can ready an action and just dogpile a target with a crit.

Protection from good and evil in C tier?

Ray of sickness not bottoming out in F-Tier? like it requires both an attack roll AND a failed con save

Sanctuary is...like unbelievably good. Why is it this low? You can do something with your action (like a paladin tapping out two attacks) and spend a bonus action to not get focused....
Have you used these spells? This looks like one of those tier lists where you just kind of read them, and thought about it but never saw them in use in a game before and just casually came up with a tier list around presuppositions ....like infinite gold on healing potions (what?!)

You might want to try using them in games beyond level 1 before creating a list of evaluations.

[RSP]

Then it isn't a 1st level spell anymore.

Wait, so you’re not considering upcasting in this list?? Then why does how you feel about scaling matter??

[RSP]

With 1 attack/round as a 1st level spell it takes 4 rounds for Hex to match the damage of Hellish Rebuke.

Not quite. The average damage from a 1st level HR is 11 only if the target fails their save, otherwise its 5.5. The average damage added from Hex is 3.5. However, that assumes hits.

Note though, that you won’t be using HR enough for averages to equal out like they will with Hex.

But at first level, does all that damage matter? A goblin, a very common opponent in early play, has 7 HPs. And does 1d6+2 damage. They have 15 AC, and +2 bonus on their Dex saves.

Non-Hex EB doesn’t quite average one-shot one-kill (only ~5.5), but having Hex up, does (~8). So in game play, the Hex Warlock has a decent chance to kill a goblin in 1 round. Assuming 16 Cha for our Warlock, he has a 55% chance to hit, and then will one-shot the goblin, on average.

Now the HR Warlock, doesn’t average the 1-shot kill. However, this is okay, because otherwise, they wouldn’t get to use HR. So they get hit, taking ~5.5 damage of their 9 HPs and using HR. With a +2 Dex mod, and the Warlock’s DC 13, the goblin saves 50% of the time, so 50% of the time, it’ll average a goblin kill. But it won’t do 11 damage, it’ll only do 7 damage because that’s all the HPs the goblin has.

So Hex, with a 55% chance to one-shot a goblin with average damage, vs HR, with a 50% chance to one-shot a goblin on average damage.

In this case, it’s more likely that Hex kills a goblin than HR, but either way, it doesn’t take 4 rounds for Hex to equal HR, it only takes one round because HPs only matter until the targets dead. So in round 1, they each can kill a goblin. But now HR is done, while Hex is still adding up additional damage for the remainder of combat.

Now, we already touched on one other negative of HR: you have to get hit to use it. So if you don’t get hit before a SR, you didn’t do anything to help your party with that slot.

Another negative is range: the target has to be within 60’. So in our goblin example, if the goblin used their shortbow at range to hit the Warlock, and is further than 61’, then no HR.

The range of Hex is 90’, so you can still Hex and EB that goblin, as long as it’s within its normal range for a shortbow (or only 10’ into its Disadvantaged longrange).



The Hex needs to be cast straight away and then the rest of the combat needs to be spent making attacks for it to be worth it. Limiting what you are able to do in order to catch up is a mark against it. Maybe you want to Dodge or administer a healing potion, or whatever.

You only have 2 slots through level 10, so you will be spending the vast majority of your time EBing/attacking rather than casting slotted spells; you’ll get your use out of Hex.

May it drop by a failed Conc check? Yup. But, as a Bonus Action, it’ll always get at least an attack in before that happens (may not hit of course). With HR, however, if you don’t get hit before a SR (which does happen), you’ve wasted that spell slot. In that same situation, Hex lasted the entire 1 hour+ of 63% more damage.



Once we hit 5th level then we have 3rd level spells and those are usually better but Hellish Rebuke might still be useful as burst damage.

Again, not quite. Hex is now used 2x a turn, averaging an additional 7 damage. HR is now averaging 22, or 11 on a save. But read above for which is more useful in actual play.

I’m assuming, at this point, that you haven’t played a Warlock for any significant amount of time. I’ve been playing one for about two years of a weekly SKT campaign. Before that, I played a Paladin/Warlock through OotA. Through both campaigns, with different DMs, Hex has stayed up through multiple combats the vast majority of the time.



Frightened can be a very powerful effect depending on what you are facing. Remember, the creature cannot approach. Against the right enemy that may nullify their attacking ability.

Well, sure. Against most, though, they have an alternative for ranged combat (like the aforementioned goblin).



Cause Fear isn't a Warlock only spell either it is also a Wizard spell.

Again, making these lists without considering builds is part of the issue you’re having: what’s a great spell for one character to have, isn’t necessarily a great spell for another.

[Eldariel]

Not quite. The average damage from a 1st level HR is 11 only if the target fails their save, otherwise its 5.5. The average damage added from Hex is 3.5. However, that assumes hits.

Note though, that you won’t be using HR enough for averages to equal out like they will with Hex.

But at first level, does all that damage matter? A goblin, a very common opponent in early play, has 7 HPs. And does 1d6+2 damage. They have 15 AC, and +2 bonus on their Dex saves.

Non-Hex EB doesn’t quite average one-shot one-kill (only ~5.5), but having Hex up, does (~8). So in game play, the Hex Warlock has a decent chance to kill a goblin in 1 round. Assuming 16 Cha for our Warlock, he has a 55% chance to hit, and then will one-shot the goblin, on average.

Now the HR Warlock, doesn’t average the 1-shot kill. However, this is okay, because otherwise, they wouldn’t get to use HR. So they get hit, taking ~5.5 damage of their 9 HPs and using HR. With a +2 Dex mod, and the Warlock’s DC 13, the goblin saves 50% of the time, so 50% of the time, it’ll average a goblin kill. But it won’t do 11 damage, it’ll only do 7 damage because that’s all the HPs the goblin has.

So Hex, with a 55% chance to one-shot a goblin with average damage, vs HR, with a 50% chance to one-shot a goblin on average damage.

In this case, it’s more likely that Hex kills a goblin than HR, but either way, it doesn’t take 4 rounds for Hex to equal HR, it only takes one round because HPs only matter until the targets dead. So in round 1, they each can kill a goblin. But now HR is done, while Hex is still adding up additional damage for the remainder of combat.

Now, we already touched on one other negative of HR: you have to get hit to use it. So if you don’t get hit before a SR, you didn’t do anything to help your party with that slot.

Another negative is range: the target has to be within 60’. So in our goblin example, if the goblin used their shortbow at range to hit the Warlock, and is further than 61’, then no HR.

The range of Hex is 90’, so you can still Hex and EB that goblin, as long as it’s within its normal range for a shortbow (or only 10’ into its Disadvantaged longrange).

In this case the math is easy enough that it should be done properly. So on a d10 you have 40% chance to roll 7-10. That is to say, Eldritch Blast has a 40% chance to kill a Goblin outright. +2 Prof, +3 Cha puts the hit bonus at +5 vs. AC 15 for a 55% chance of hitting (and 5% chance of critting for 2d10, which has an 85/100 or 85% chance of a kill). Thus plain Eldritch Blast has a 24,25% chance of killing a Goblin. Add Hex and 1d10+1d6 rolls over 7 has 10x6 = 60 cases out of which 45‬ deal 7 or more damage (basically 6+anything, 5+anything but 1, etc.) for a 75% chance of killing the Goblin. Crits have 2d10+2d6 which has like 3595/3600 rolls lethal so 0,998611... or about 99,9% chance of a kill. This amounts to a 42,49(3055....)% chance of a kill. In other words, Hex improves the Eldritch Blast's chances of killing a Goblin by 18,24 percent points or an increase of about 75%. There's a 45% chance of the Goblin being unscathed and about 12,5% of it being damaged but not dead with Hex.

Now, conveniently we did the math for HR already: on a failed save it kills the target 85% of the time. Successful save is a bit different since the probability curve of a 2d10/2 is different from 1d10. On a successful save 28/100 (roll of 10 has 7 options, roll of 9 has 6 options, etc.) or 28% of the time. A Goblin successfully saves against DC 13 on a 11 or higher (50% of the time). Thus HR has 50% * 85% + 50% * 28% or 56,5‬% chance of killing the Goblin and 45,5% of it being damaged. So I'd say in this case HR is significantly better (about 14 percent points higher, 32,9 % increase) as it has a higher chance of killing the Goblin than EB + Hex has of even hitting it and it's guaranteed to hurt it while EB can miss. That said, Hex obviously accrues extra value over the day and does indeed have a superior range.

[Satori01]

[QUOTE=LudicSavant;24433694]No problem :smallsmile:
Using a potion is indeed interacting with an object, it's just not the Use an Object action. Those terms are not analogous.

Ludic, to put it bluntly...you are incorrect.

PG 140 of the DMG states:

Potions are consumable magic items. Drinking a potion or administering it to another character requires an action. Applying an oil might take longer, as specified in its description. Once used, a potion takes effect immedidately, and it is used up.

Jeremy Crawford has confirmed this, and even said in regards to this issue..” D&D is not a physics engine”. Potions are liquid spells, and thus like spells, the use of potions is strictly regulated in terms of action economy.

If you wish to houserule it, cool. At least have the courtesy, to not conflate your houserule with RAW and RAI. It is neither. Just keep it to yourself. :)

[Segev]

[QUOTE=LudicSavant;24433694]No problem :smallsmile:
Using a potion is indeed interacting with an object, it's just not the Use an Object action. Those terms are not analogous.

Ludic, to put it bluntly...you are incorrect.

PG 140 of the DMG states:

Potions are consumable magic items. Drinking a potion or administering it to another character requires an action. Applying an oil might take longer, as specified in its description. Once used, a potion takes effect immedidately, and it is used up.

Jeremy Crawford has confirmed this, and even said in regards to this issue..” D&D is not a physics engine”. Potions are liquid spells, and thus like spells, the use of potions is strictly regulated in terms of action economy.

If you wish to houserule it, cool. At least have the courtesy, to not conflate your houserule with RAW and RAI. It is neither. Just keep it to yourself. :)

I don’t see in the quote you give where it says it is the Use An Object action.

[ad_hoc]

Not quite. The average damage from a 1st level HR is 11 only if the target fails their save, otherwise its 5.5. The average damage added from Hex is 3.5. However, that assumes hits.


11*.66 + 5.5*.33 / 3.5*.66 = 4

[LudicSavant]

PG 140 of the DMG states:

Potions are consumable magic items. Drinking a potion or administering it to another character requires an action. Applying an oil might take longer, as specified in its description. Once used, a potion takes effect immedidately, and it is used up.I don’t see in the quote you give where it says it is the Use An Object action.

Indeed, it says no such thing. Satori's just wrong.



Using a potion is indeed interacting with an object, it's just not the Use an Object action. you are incorrect

The rulebooks would beg to differ.


If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action. Some magic items and other special objects always require an action to use, as stated in their descriptions.


If an item requires an action to activate, that action isn't a function of the Use an Object action, so a feature such as the rogue's Fast Hands can't be used to activate the item.

[diplomancer]

There isn't a "use a magic object" action, ALL actions that activate a magic item, including potions, are its own action, and it is explicitly NOT the "use an object" action.

That said, the Unseen Servant does NOT take the "use an object" action, and its suggested interactions with objects, like mending clothes, are far more complex than those in the "interacting with objects" box in the combat section.

A human servant can give a potion to someone. Ergo, an unseen servant can do the same.

As to my suggestion, I explicitly said it depends on how generous your DM is. That is not because it would be a houserule to allow the suggestion to work, only a generous ruling, i.e "follow me and give me this potion if I go down" is a simple command that is only completed once the potion is given. It's such a simple command that only Monty Python's guards wouldn't be able to understand it, but maybe your DM is not generous and treats unseen servants as Monty Python's guards, in which case it does lose a bit of its function (though bringing OTHER people back from zero at the cost of a bonus action and no spell slot, just a healing potion, is still very good).

[LudicSavant]

ALL actions that activate a magic item, including potions, are its own action, and it is explicitly NOT the "use an object" action.

That said, the Unseen Servant does NOT take the "use an object" action

Precisely so.

[Chaos Jackal]

First, the list overvalues damage, undervalues utility and control. Often severely so.
Hellish Rebuke, a Shield-competing (and later Counterspell), single-target, save-granting fire damage spell on S?
Burning Hands, again a save-granting spell that only deals damage, on A? Yes, it's an early AoE option, but its range and area mean that if you actually wanna take advantage of its AoE you'd better kill everything with it when you cast it, because if the enemies survive you're a soft, squishy, low AC and HP target in a spot where monsters don't even need to risk an AoO to get. Not to mention the bad scaling of early AoE damage.
Chaos Bolt on the same level as the already mediocre Chromatic Orb? Or Inflict Wounds? Neither of the two is amazing, but both of them are definitely better than Chaos Bolt. A small chance to deal nothing more than more damage doesn't justify a spell inherently weaker.
There's more of that too.
At the same time, there's things like Goodberry, one of the most commonly complained for and easily abusable spells, on C.
Or Protection from Evil and Good, which, even without slot scaling, is a good defense at all levels of play, with a good duration letting it last through a few skirmishes or being pre-cast in order to avoid the action cost.
Or Expeditious Retreat and Longstrider, excellent movement spells, especially pre-Fly but even later in the game, since they never lose their value and 1st-level slots become much more expendable.
Or Unseen Servant, a nice little utility spell with the ritual tag on top of it. Sure, not everyone can afford to pick it up, but it has both a lot of uses (without any cheese either) and is basically free cast.
Or Charm Person at C, and so on...

Second, it often contradicts the very principles it seems to judge some spells by in other criticisms.
For example, concentration. Seems like a good enough reason to knock Bless, one of the best group buffs in the game, off S, but there's a Smite spell at A and another at B. Smite spells. Concentration-breaking, often low damage, usually weak rider Smite spells. On par with Bless. Even though they both need your concentration, which is why Bless is even there in the first place.
Or Cause Fear. Single target. A not really potent condition. Does nothing on a save. Grants repeated saves. And is, again, concentration. But is somehow half-decent? Tasha's, which suffers from similar issues, at least is full-blown incapacitation. And yet they're in the same tier.
On the other hand, Armor of Agathys. Excellent scaling. Great potential. It can kill the swarm surrounding you without a save, while protecting your HP. Against a single enemy brute with a big scary weapon it gives you a buffer which, for a good part of the game, equals between a third and a fifth of your HP, while dealing back between a fourth and a fifth of that enemy's HP. Again with no save. Even better, it's concentration free, and lasts for an hour, so as far as precasting goes it's safe as houses. But it's... C?
Hex and Hunter's Mark on different tiers, no comment on that. Rangers don't bother much with concentration, I'll give you that. And I agree that Hex isn't the be-all, end-all of warlock concentration. But it is a spell lasting for hours on a class that has a short rest slot recovery mechanic. Losing concentration on it after you've rested, whether through damage or because you cast something else, costs nothing. And in the meantime you get a d6 every damage roll. I've heard Eldritch Blast is a good cantrip to go with it. Plus, the debuff might be small, but there's a lot of synergy with things as basic as grapples and shoves.
Maybe take a different guideline... Like how situational a spell is, perhaps? I mean, we've got plenty of spells at lower tiers because they're situational. We also have Feather Fall at S. Can Feather Fall save your life? Without a doubt. Will Feather Fall save your life on a more than rare basis? Doubtful. It's the See Invisibility issue. A very specific effect for very specific conditions. Majority of the time you won't need it, but when you do need it, you need it badly. The definition of situational. Can such an obviously situational spell be valued as much as Shield? I don't think so.

There's more to comment on both counts. Likely a lot more to be said for ranger and druid spells, but I don't play either so can't have a strong opinion. There's also overlap. Charm Person, for example, is both undervalued utility and a principle breach, since its long duration and lack of concentration should've bumped it up a bit. Unless they actually did bump it up from D, in which case, well, I rest my case.

And there's one more thing, regarding the general defense. The OP's arguments behind most of the so-called "controversial" placements are based entirely on anecdotal evidence, or no evidence at all, with the blanket yet undefined "standard/default 5e", "most/few people" etc. type of support. I'm sorry OP but, as is often the case, judging based solely on your experience or on a set of parameters and variables you never define and just flaunt as "standard" doesn't constitute a solid argument.

The list is hard to make in the first place, since it's not just judging spells for a single class, but also comparing them to spells of other classes and characters with different mechanics and goals. In that sense, a list covering all 1st-level spells is borderline impossible to make; too many variables to take into account. But even with that in mind, there are a lot of glaring flaws here.

[Chronos]

The reason I was comparing Hex to a third-level spell was because we were talking about how well it scales when upcast. Which is something that we should be talking about, because it's a warlock spell, and warlocks upcast all of their spells. Whenever a warlock casts an 8-hour Hex, it has to be because they value that effect more than they value Hypnotic Pattern (or the very similar Fear or Sleep).

As for Cause Fear, yeah, making an enemy incapable of approaching, and less likely to succeed on things, can be useful. You know what other first-level spell will accomplish both of those things and more, with the same save? Tasha's Hideous Laughter. The only thing Cause Fear has over Tasha's is its upcasting, and even that's only relevant when you're casting it as a second-level spell, because once you get to third-level spells, Fear is much better.

[RSP]

In this case the math is easy enough that it should be done properly.

Thank you for that, though the math wasn’t the point.

HR will likely out damage one instance of Hex added damage. HR can, surely, deal up to 20 damage using a 1st level slot, but that doesn’t matter because most of that damage is meaningless when fighting creatures at level 1.

Hex+EB significantly increases the likelihood of one-shotting a goblin.

So using my admittedly less-than-perfect math was fine to show that. When actually seeing the results in-play, the idea that, as a 1st level spell, HR is better than Hex because it does more damage, is wrong. HR doing more damage is moot when the threshold is so low. You could upcast it with a 5th level slot and do 6d10 (~33, or 16.5 on a save) and it wouldn’t really matter (you are a lot more likely to one-shot it, but at an even greater waste. Not to mention the humiliation you’ll receive if it survives with a horrible damage roll).

Even if fighting the goblins’ Hobgoblin boss (11 HPs, +1 Dex Mod; 1d8+1 or 1d10+1 damage with the possibility of adding 2d6 more if it’s not-sneak attack conditions are met) HR isn’t good. HR benefits in this scenario as the Hob has less chance to make the Dex save, and more HPs than the goblin.

The Hob also does more damage and can deal that damage at a greater range with their longbow (and well outside HR’s range). It’s now possible that waiting to use HR actually results in the PC getting downed by the triggering hit, and that slot doesn’t help the party at all.

The point is, reading HR’s description and concluding it’s a great spell, and actually playing a Warlock through multiple encounters with it, will, apparently, lead one to different conclusions as to its usefulness.

[TheUser]

I remember my first rogue back when 5e was in it's first year and how I thought I could use Fast Hands to use a wand of magic missiles.

The DM quickly saw that this was OP as **** and paged through the DMG to find relevant material.

The 3 quotes that Ludic put up illustrate that the "use an object" action is not the same as interacting with a magical object. I really don't see how you could get any other answer after finding the relevant rulings.

[Boci]

The only thing Cause Fear has over Tasha's is its upcasting

And not offering a new save, with advantage, when damaging the creature.

[Daphne]

I agree on Hex, it's simply not as impactful as an Hypnotic Pattern or Fireball most of the time.

[Tanarii]

Feather Fall is D tier. It's useless unless you're going to run a campaign focused around cliffs/chasms or arial combat.

[RSP]

I agree on Hex, it's simply not as impactful as an Hypnotic Pattern or Fireball most of the time.

How are you looking at it?

Hex doesn’t compete with Fireball, Concentration-wise. So if you cast Hex, SR, then you can still Fireball away with ALL your slots, while still having Hex up to enhance your non-fireballing turns.

HP is a great spell, so long as there’s enough reason to use it. Again, having Hex up, and keeping it up through a SR, means you lose nothing if deciding to then cast HP.

HP, however, can waste a slot if you’re waiting to use it, and end up taking a SR before you get the opportunity. Hex will always add damage to hits while it’s up.

Hex certainly isn’t as impactful on any turn in which you have a successful Fireball or HP casting, but measured over the course of the rest of its duration, it certainly could be. I’m not sure comparing spells of different durations is a fair comparison if only measuring them as an instantaneous effect.

[diplomancer]

Feather Fall is D tier. It's useless unless you're going to run a campaign focused around cliffs/chasms or arial combat.

Feather fall is about D tier on tiers 1 and 2, and around S tier on tiers 3 and 4. It illustrates well the difficulties of making such a list.

[Segev]

Tasha’s hideous laughter is powerful. Nothing save low int creatures are immune. But it doesn’t prevent approach. The prone portion slows them considerably. But it doesn’t stop them. And some things are immune to prone.

It does prevent them doing anything that takes an action when the get to you, though. Doesn’t break Concentration; if they have a Concentration spell that does something without requiring an action (like guardian spirits), they can still benefit.

[Tanarii]

Feather fall is about D tier on tiers 1 and 2, and around S tier on tiers 3 and 4. It illustrates well the difficulties of making such a list.
Okay. I only ran a little Tier 3 IMC, and I think like 2 Tier 4 one shots. They didn't involve any serious arial combat. That would definitely color my view.

But if you're going to make a Tier list for level 1 (or 2-3) spells, rating them for Tier 2 is the way to go. That's the majority of the game.

[sithlordnergal]

Tasha’s hideous laughter is powerful. Nothing save low int creatures are immune. But it doesn’t prevent approach. The prone portion slows them considerably. But it doesn’t stop them. And some things are immune to prone.

It does prevent them doing anything that takes an action when the get to you, though. Doesn’t break Concentration; if they have a Concentration spell that does something without requiring an action (like guardian spirits), they can still benefit.

Correction, it actually does break concentration:

Tasha's Hideous Laughter:

"The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw of fall prone, becoming Incapacitated and unable to stand up for the Duration. A creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or less isn't affected."


PHB, pg. 203:

"You lose Concentration on a spell if you are Incapacitated or if you die."


This means that a Monk can also automatically break concentration by stunning someone, since the Stun condition also causes you to become Incapacitated. Also, while there may be some debate, the Incapacitated and Prone conditions could be seen as separate things. So even if you have a creature immune to Prone, they would still be Incapacitated by the laughter.

[Segev]

My mistake on the concentration. Yes, the incapacitation is separate from being prone. You’re laughing too hard to act. It is a very powerful spell.

[LudicSavant]

Tasha’s hideous laughter is powerful. Nothing save low int creatures are immune. But it doesn’t prevent approach. The prone portion slows them considerably. But it doesn’t stop them. And some things are immune to prone.

It does prevent them doing anything that takes an action when the get to you, though. Doesn’t break Concentration

Tasha's incapacitates you. Incapacitation breaks Concentration.

[sithlordnergal]

My mistake on the concentration. Yes, the incapacitation is separate from being prone. You’re laughing too hard to act. It is a very powerful spell.

Yeah, its one of those spells that should probably be 2nd level because of how powerful it is. Since its not technically enchanting anything, you can use it on everything. Hell, you can use it on a Skeleton, and that Skeleton can be effected because Skeletons have an Int higher than 4. When players ask me "Do you think Tasha's would work", my answer has always been "Try it anyway, you'd be surprised what it works on"

[Addaran]

Okay. I only ran a little Tier 3 IMC, and I think like 2 Tier 4 one shots. They didn't involve any serious arial combat. That would definitely color my view.

But if you're going to make a Tier list for level 1 (or 2-3) spells, rating them for Tier 2 is the way to go. That's the majority of the game.

If you ever get fly (or levitate) for combat use, it's pretty mandatory to also take feather falls. Even if it's just for quick travel flying over obstacles, there's always the chance to lose concentration for some reason (ambush from flying creature, arrow or long range spell).

It might not happen often, but if you fight a dragon or some other creature that fly and grapple you, not falling to your death is nice. Kinda situational if you don't have fly, but still not a D spell.

[sithlordnergal]

If you ever get fly (or levitate) for combat use, it's pretty mandatory to also take feather falls. Even if it's just for quick travel flying over obstacles, there's always the chance to lose concentration for some reason (ambush from flying creature, arrow or long range spell).

It might not happen often, but if you fight a dragon or some other creature that fly and grapple you, not falling to your death is nice. Kinda situational if you don't have fly, but still not a D spell.

Or just be a Monk. =p But yeah, my party has learned very quickly that Feather Fall is really, really, really useful when I grappled one of them, lifted them 180 feet into the air, and let go.

[Dudu]

I don't disagree with Bless being grade A instead of S. But Id like to remark that, in lower tier of play (Lvls 1 to 4), it might be the most impactful lvl 1 spell. Certainly the best use of concentration at that stage.

The difference is that spells like Shield remain relevant for the whole game.

[AvatarVecna]

I also feel Bless should be S-tier. Because of how bounded accuracy works, +1d4 to attacks/saves is equally relevant to your whole career, it's a concentration spell that provides a touch of protection from concentration loss, and even though it only affects three targets, there's usually one member of the party who's more forcing saves or using support spells than making attack rolls, and that person is usually not getting saves forced on them cuz they're way in the back, so it ends up working out (but also Bless is one of the few spells that's really worth upcasting, if you're in a 4/5 person party where everybody likes Bless).

Quite frankly, for the majority of your career, you're going to be asking "should I cast Bless on 3+ party members, or should I use some other concentration spell instead". Bless is the gold standard for concentration buffs from lvl 1 to lvl 20, it's the default answer that's never not a great choice, and the only reason to go with something else is if somebody else has already cast Bless, or if the situation is just absolutely great for a particular non-Bless concentration spell.

[Zuras]

I don't disagree with Bless being grade A instead of S. But Id like to remark that, in lower tier of play (Lvls 1 to 4), it might be the most impactful lvl 1 spell. Certainly the best use of concentration at that stage.

The difference is that spells like Shield remain relevant for the whole game.

Bless has been quite relevant in high level play in the games I’ve played. It’s not your obvious go-to spell every time after you get Spirit Guardians, but many times the benefits of Bless are still the best use of your concentration. Any time you’re not facing a horde of mooks, especially something with a decent AC, or playing with a GWM/SS user, or need to buff some weak saves.

The most recent tier 3 fight I was in featured 5 misses turned into hits and at least one concentration check changed from a fail to a pass. It’s ironically better against high CR creatures than most of your high level spells, although it often feels unimpressive for the caster. Nothing like failing your save vs Mind Blast while helping the Barbarian make theirs.

[Tanarii]

I didn't see bless used that often. In the typical 3-4 round fight, the bonus makes a difference maybe 0 to 1 times. Players don't find that useful enough IMX.

[stoutstien]

I didn't see bless used that often. In the typical 3-4 round fight, the bonus makes a difference maybe 0 to 1 times. Players don't find that useful enough IMX.

Bless is a good spell to use for encounters that are hard to gauge. If you have a fight you want to end early but don't want to use a higher lv slot bless will probably add more to a party than you casting a cantrip or swinging a weapon. Double for parties with GWM/SS users or rogues.

It's also gold for a order cleric. A lv 1 buff that targets 3 allies is very flexible for giving that reaction attack.

[Tanarii]

Bless is a good spell to use for encounters that are hard to gauge. If you have a fight you want to end early but don't want to use a higher lv slot bless will probably add more to a party than you casting a cantrip or swinging a weapon. Double for parties with GWM/SS users or rogues. For ending a fight quickly, Guiding Bolt is better, especially if you have a hard hitting ally. Bless (or Bane) is for when you think a fight will take a long time.

[nickl_2000]

For ending a fight quickly, Guiding Bolt is better, especially if you have a hard hitting ally. Bless (or Bane) is for when you think a fight will take a long time.

Or when you are against a caster or have major environmental effects that cause saves, or a dragon with fear.

The bonus to saves is often forgotten, that bonus can make the difference someone sitting out an encounter or helping

[stoutstien]

For ending a fight quickly, Guiding Bolt is better, especially if you have a hard hitting ally. Bless (or Bane) is for when you think a fight will take a long time.

Comes down to adv honestly. If the next person to attack the target already has adv the GB loses a lot of luster where bless doesn't. 4d6 with a chance to miss vs adding 1d4 to 3 allies Attack rolls. Both are top picks for clerics to prepare
Paladin may want to use bless if they don't have a better use for their action.

[Pleh]

Comes down to adv honestly. If the next person to attack the target already has adv the GB loses a lot of luster where bless doesn't. 4d6 with a chance to miss vs adding 1d4 to 3 allies Attack rolls. Both are top picks for clerics to prepare
Paladin may want to use bless if they don't have a better use for their action.

Technically, Guiding Bolt isn't a Paladin spell.

I was noticing this on my first paladin character last night choosing my first set of spells.

Almost every Paladin Spell (at least at first level) is concentration based. It seems rather clear the paladin play pattern is to keep your buff/debuff concentrations going as long as possible, relying on heavy armor to keep you from having to make too many constitution saves.

Made me wish pally got proficiency with Constitution saves to up their effectiveness with Concentration as a front lime caster.

[stoutstien]

Technically, Guiding Bolt isn't a Paladin spell.

I was noticing this on my first paladin character last night choosing my first set of spells.

Almost every Paladin Spell (at least at first level) is concentration based. It seems rather clear the paladin play pattern is to keep your buff/debuff concentrations going as long as possible, relying on heavy armor to keep you from having to make too many constitution saves.

Made me wish pally got proficiency with Constitution saves to up their effectiveness with Concentration as a front lime caster.

i was just saying rating bless factoring both classes should be a factor. being a 1/2 caster means that slot has a higher cost for the pally and it still is a good spell to consider.

[LudicSavant]

First, the list overvalues damage, undervalues utility and control. Often severely so.
Hellish Rebuke, a Shield-competing (and later Counterspell), single-target, save-granting fire damage spell on S?
Burning Hands, again a save-granting spell that only deals damage, on A? Yes, it's an early AoE option, but its range and area mean that if you actually wanna take advantage of its AoE you'd better kill everything with it when you cast it, because if the enemies survive you're a soft, squishy, low AC and HP target in a spot where monsters don't even need to risk an AoO to get. Not to mention the bad scaling of early AoE damage.
Chaos Bolt on the same level as the already mediocre Chromatic Orb? Or Inflict Wounds? Neither of the two is amazing, but both of them are definitely better than Chaos Bolt. A small chance to deal nothing more than more damage doesn't justify a spell inherently weaker.
There's more of that too.
At the same time, there's things like Goodberry, one of the most commonly complained for and easily abusable spells, on C.
Or Protection from Evil and Good, which, even without slot scaling, is a good defense at all levels of play, with a good duration letting it last through a few skirmishes or being pre-cast in order to avoid the action cost.
Or Expeditious Retreat and Longstrider, excellent movement spells, especially pre-Fly but even later in the game, since they never lose their value and 1st-level slots become much more expendable.
Or Unseen Servant, a nice little utility spell with the ritual tag on top of it. Sure, not everyone can afford to pick it up, but it has both a lot of uses (without any cheese either) and is basically free cast.
Or Charm Person at C, and so on...

Second, it often contradicts the very principles it seems to judge some spells by in other criticisms.
For example, concentration. Seems like a good enough reason to knock Bless, one of the best group buffs in the game, off S, but there's a Smite spell at A and another at B. Smite spells. Concentration-breaking, often low damage, usually weak rider Smite spells. On par with Bless. Even though they both need your concentration, which is why Bless is even there in the first place.
Or Cause Fear. Single target. A not really potent condition. Does nothing on a save. Grants repeated saves. And is, again, concentration. But is somehow half-decent? Tasha's, which suffers from similar issues, at least is full-blown incapacitation. And yet they're in the same tier.
On the other hand, Armor of Agathys. Excellent scaling. Great potential. It can kill the swarm surrounding you without a save, while protecting your HP. Against a single enemy brute with a big scary weapon it gives you a buffer which, for a good part of the game, equals between a third and a fifth of your HP, while dealing back between a fourth and a fifth of that enemy's HP. Again with no save. Even better, it's concentration free, and lasts for an hour, so as far as precasting goes it's safe as houses. But it's... C?
Hex and Hunter's Mark on different tiers, no comment on that. Rangers don't bother much with concentration, I'll give you that. And I agree that Hex isn't the be-all, end-all of warlock concentration. But it is a spell lasting for hours on a class that has a short rest slot recovery mechanic. Losing concentration on it after you've rested, whether through damage or because you cast something else, costs nothing. And in the meantime you get a d6 every damage roll. I've heard Eldritch Blast is a good cantrip to go with it. Plus, the debuff might be small, but there's a lot of synergy with things as basic as grapples and shoves.
Maybe take a different guideline... Like how situational a spell is, perhaps? I mean, we've got plenty of spells at lower tiers because they're situational. We also have Feather Fall at S. Can Feather Fall save your life? Without a doubt. Will Feather Fall save your life on a more than rare basis? Doubtful. It's the See Invisibility issue. A very specific effect for very specific conditions. Majority of the time you won't need it, but when you do need it, you need it badly. The definition of situational. Can such an obviously situational spell be valued as much as Shield? I don't think so.

There's more to comment on both counts. Likely a lot more to be said for ranger and druid spells, but I don't play either so can't have a strong opinion. There's also overlap. Charm Person, for example, is both undervalued utility and a principle breach, since its long duration and lack of concentration should've bumped it up a bit. Unless they actually did bump it up from D, in which case, well, I rest my case.

And there's one more thing, regarding the general defense. The OP's arguments behind most of the so-called "controversial" placements are based entirely on anecdotal evidence, or no evidence at all, with the blanket yet undefined "standard/default 5e", "most/few people" etc. type of support. I'm sorry OP but, as is often the case, judging based solely on your experience or on a set of parameters and variables you never define and just flaunt as "standard" doesn't constitute a solid argument.

The list is hard to make in the first place, since it's not just judging spells for a single class, but also comparing them to spells of other classes and characters with different mechanics and goals. In that sense, a list covering all 1st-level spells is borderline impossible to make; too many variables to take into account. But even with that in mind, there are a lot of glaring flaws here.

I think this is a good feedback post overall, but this part in particular...


And there's one more thing, regarding the general defense. The OP's arguments behind most of the so-called "controversial" placements are based entirely on anecdotal evidence, or no evidence at all, with the blanket yet undefined "standard/default 5e", "most/few people" etc. type of support. I'm sorry OP but, as is often the case, judging based solely on your experience or on a set of parameters and variables you never define and just flaunt as "standard" doesn't constitute a solid argument.

...I wish more guide-writers would heed.

[Dudu]

I didn't see bless used that often. In the typical 3-4 round fight, the bonus makes a difference maybe 0 to 1 times. Players don't find that useful enough IMX.
Then your experience differs from mine.

It's pretty big when you think you'll face a lot of saves. If you think your party will have to eat a few fireballs, for example. Or if there's more casters concentrating on their own spells.

When you think about it, the 1d4 averages at 2.5 increase, which is bigger than the +2 proficiency you start with. Hence why I think it's so impactful early in the career but remains a good option later when you see nothing better to concentrate on.
Even late game, you might not be willing to burn a lvl 8 spell for Holy Aura, saving that spell for the biggest fights. And in a typical 4 men party, you have the option to cast as lvl 2 spell, saving your lvl 1 spells for Healing Word or Shield (if you grabbed that spell somehow).

Bless was actually the spell I concentrate the most with my last cleric, that I played from lvl 1 to lvl 12. Spirit Guardians was a close second. Every other concentration spell I casted far less frequently.

So, I undertand the A rank. I don't disagree with it. But I wonder if this isn't a good example of S rank spell.
But when I look at the list, Dissonant Whispers and Feather Fall are "S" tier, and I think they should be downgraded to A. They don't look better than Bless to me, even though they are great spells. And Hellish Rebuke is only good for Warlocks that stayed in the class.

My S Tier would be Shield, Healing Word, Find Familiar, Hellish Rebuke and Bless.

[Chronos]

My first 5e campaign, we started at 1st level. I think it was around 5th level before anyone ever benefited from the advantage from the cleric's Guiding Bolt (which he cast frequently). Things had an annoying habit of dying to the bolt itself.

Mind you, at higher levels, it became quite useful

[Segev]

The ToA game I am running has 4 PC, one NPC cleric at half their level, and rotating rosters of extra NPCs that sometimes show up for brief periods. The NPC cleric is an upgraded Erky Timbers from Sunless Citadel, who in this campaign was captured by pirates before being dragged to said Citadel in a medium-length story that goes into some details unique to my campaign. Regardless, he's a Tempest Cleric of Tempus, and is only 2nd level while the rest of the party are 5th. They value him highly for his castings of bless and the occasional cure wounds. They definitely over-associate the times monsters make the DC on his sacred flame, though, acting surprised every time they fail when they tend to fail almost as often as they succeed. But still, they really like his bless spells. He casts it on the half-orc barbarian, the dwarven ranger, and the eladrin hexblade, usually. The wizard could benefit, but is forcing saves half the time anyway, and manages to do a good job hiding out of line of sight between spells for most purposes.

[col_impact]

Let's come up with a new list ranking from scratch.

[Pleh]

Let's come up with a new list ranking from scratch.

Any group ranking would need to first discuss the criteria. How are we handling spell scaling? How do we measure the more situational spells?

[Daithi]

Feather Fall is way overrated. It would be a wasted spell slot at lower tiers, and to be honest, I probably wouldn't prepare it at higher tiers either unless as a Contingency.

[RSP]

Feather Fall is way overrated. It would be a wasted spell slot at lower tiers, and to be honest, I probably wouldn't prepare it at higher tiers either unless as a Contingency.

Not sure I agree that wasting Contigency is better than just preparing Feather Fall, if you’re worried about falling. Contingency can do so much more.

[sambojin]

I'm in the "Goodberry should be at least in B, but might just squeak into A tier due to its absolute usability" camp.

I'll give a few reasons why:

It can be divided. You're not just getting 10pts of healing, you're getting 10x1HP, that can be divided as you wish. In a "standard" four person party, that's two each, and either two spare for you or two for the familiar. Everyone can now be the yo-yo healer when required, twice per day, for a lvl1 spell slot.

It does food. This is kinda handy for the party sometimes.

It does food. This is excellent against any beast encounter in the game (just wrap it in a bit of meat for carnivores). You're the most likely person to be able to convince an animal to eat its food, once they eat that bit of food, they're not hungry all day. They have little natural reason to attack you (unless you're in their lair, harassed their babies, or have already put the boot in). 1/10th of a spell slot to avoid the occasional encounter. You may even get an animal buddy, or information out of it. Pretty good deal.

It does food and healing. How many longer campaigns are there where you don't meet a poor, bedraggled peasant? Or a down on their luck group of townsfolk? A day of food for them and their entire family is a pretty good way of making friends. It's not exactly a mass charm spell, but everyone is happy with you afterwards as well. No explicit poor people NPC'd in your adventure? Go find them. A day's food and a squeak of healing is as good to a street urchin as it is to a craftsman in a town harried by bandits. It's invaluable in information gathering and in making friends. Druids are like non-denominational clerics for the poor. They always have food and can cure your (minor) ills.

It lasts 24hrs. Casting tomorrow's healing and utility today is like getting a free lvl1 spell slot tomorrow. So that's what you do, whenever you can.

So, there's never really any day that you won't prepare it. There's never any day that you won't dump at least a remaining slot or two into it (between wildshape, totems, fire spirits or slot recharge, along with your long lasting spells, druids are pretty capable of having a slot or two leftover from lvl4 onwards, even in hard'ish campaigns). It's not situational, and it does plenty of things. At its most basic it's 10HP of healing for a lvl1 slot. And that's good compared to most healing spells. But it's also 10x yo-yo'ing, and food, and animal bribes, and friend-makers, and a spell slot saver.

That's at least a B. I'd honestly rate it as an A. It's just so widely applicable to several pillars of the game (combat/ RP/ exploration+info gathering) that it's too handy to not have. Even for Rangers it's not bad. It's pretty good for Magical Initiates as well. A spell that you'll use every day, in every sort of campaign, is way better than a C.

[col_impact]

I'm in the "Goodberry should be at least in B, but might just squeak into A tier due to its absolute usability" camp.

I'll give a few reasons why:

It can be divided. You're not just getting 10pts of healing, you're getting 10x1HP, that can be divided as you wish. In a "standard" four person party, that's two each, and either two spare for you or two for the familiar. Everyone can now be the yo-yo healer when required, twice per day, for a lvl1 spell slot.

It does food. This is kinda handy for the party sometimes.

It does food. This is excellent against any beast encounter in the game (just wrap it in a bit of meat for carnivores). You're the most likely person to be able to convince an animal to eat its food, once they eat that bit of food, they're not hungry all day. They have little natural reason to attack you (unless you're in their lair, harassed their babies, or have already put the boot in). 1/10th of a spell slot to avoid the occasional encounter. You may even get an animal buddy, or information out of it. Pretty good deal.

It does food and healing. How many longer campaigns are there where you don't meet a poor, bedraggled peasant? Or a down on their luck group of townsfolk? A day of food for them and their entire family is a pretty good way of making friends. It's not exactly a mass charm spell, but everyone is happy with you afterwards as well. No explicit poor people NPC'd in your adventure? Go find them. A day's food and a squeak of healing is as good to a street urchin as it is to a craftsman in a town harried by bandits. It's invaluable in information gathering and in making friends. Druids are like non-denominational clerics for the poor. They always have food and can cure your (minor) ills.

It lasts 24hrs. Casting tomorrow's healing and utility today is like getting a free lvl1 spell slot tomorrow. So that's what you do, whenever you can.

So, there's never really any day that you won't prepare it. There's never any day that you won't dump at least a remaining slot or two into it (between wildshape, totems, fire spirits or slot recharge, along with your long lasting spells, druids are pretty capable of having a slot or two leftover from lvl4 onwards, even in hard'ish campaigns). It's not situational, and it does plenty of things. At its most basic it's 10HP of healing for a lvl1 slot. And that's good compared to most healing spells. But it's also 10x yo-yo'ing, and food, and animal bribes, and friend-makers, and a spell slot saver.

That's at least a B. I'd honestly rate it as an A. It's just so widely applicable to several pillars of the game (combat/ RP/ exploration+info gathering) that it's too handy to not have. Even for Rangers it's not bad. It's pretty good for Magical Initiates as well. A spell that you'll use every day, in every sort of campaign, is way better than a C.

And if you combine it with Life Cleric 1 then carry over combat damage becomes trivialized. You will always be at full health for every combat ever. That is a great state for the party to be in and you will be very popular.

[sambojin]

It's also not just you that can use it. All its friend-making/info-gathering functions work just a well for the party face, clerical noble, intimidating fighter, well-connected wizard or the low-life rogue as they do for you. The spell is there for everybody for all the things it does, and not just for the familiar for yo-yo healing.

You mostly wouldn't give a street urchin a minor healing potion and a free feed to increase your chances of getting info from them or to make a friend in a city. Where-as, you can hand out Goodberries like candy, to your party members and to anyone/anything that might need/want them, all to your own/your party's benefit. They're pretty good for a lvl1 spell slot, and you don't mind up-casting them off higher level slots for tomorrow, because it's just free resources. It's not even the slot savings or the extra healing, it's the mass amount of tiny magic items you're able to hand out to everyone that's the key. They're RP'y and combat'y and post-combat'y, but with no large amounts of time or resources needed for these things, and can be divvied up as you want. You spent that time before you went to sleep yesterday, and handed them out already if you wished. Not many other spells can do this.

[col_impact]

It's also not just you that can use it. All its friend-making/info-gathering functions work just a well for the party face, clerical noble, intimidating fighter, well-connected wizard or the low-life rogue as they do for you. The spell is there for everybody for all the things it does, and not just for the familiar for yo-yo healing.
It is S tier for me. Heck, how many MI feats grab Goodberry as 1st level spell? Shows how solid it is.

[Dudu]

And if you combine it with Life Cleric 1 then carry over combat damage becomes trivialized. You will always be at full health for every combat ever. That is a great state for the party to be in and you will be very popular.
If I were DMing, I could rule that only one berry heals 4HP, otherwise Goodberry could be crazy. 40HP worth, divided into 10 convenient packs. It's crazy value for a lvl 1 spell. 9 berries healing 1 HP and 1 healing 4 is already a good boon.

Plus, that buffed goodberry could defeat the purpose of casting Prayer of Healing most of times. The total ammount of HP healed by PoH could be higher, but goodberry would be much better at it, perhaps some players are full HP anyway, while others are more hurt. And it uses a lvl 1 spell slot. Goodberry would be far more versatile and cheaper.

[col_impact]

If I were DMing, I could rule that only one berry heals 4HP, otherwise Goodberry could be crazy. 40HP worth, divided into 10 convenient packs. It's crazy value for a lvl 1 spell. 9 berries healing 1 HP and 1 healing 4 is already a good boon.

Plus, that buffed goodberry could defeat the purpose of casting Prayer of Healing most of times. The total ammount of HP healed by PoH could be higher, but goodberry would be much better at it, perhaps some players are full HP anyway, while others are more hurt. And it uses a lvl 1 spell slot. Goodberry would be far more versatile and cheaper.

If you houserule something because its OP thats a good sign that its S tier.

[sambojin]

It also has some funny little side-effects in the party. Did you get yo-yo'd by the Wizard's familiar with one of the Druid's wondrous berries? Well, you take first watch tonight, you don't need to eat for the day, we all do.

Or, maybe none of us need to eat now. Who knows?

Just little things, that do sometimes come up.

[Segev]

If you houserule something because its OP thats a good sign that its S tier.

"Rule" doesn't necessarily mean "house rule" in the sense that you're changing the RAW for your table. It can just mean interpreting. In this case, though, that would be a house rule.

What's more questionable is whether goodberry and healing spirit even CAN benefit from Life Cleric. "Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature," is the triggering condition. Sure, you cast goodberry and/or healing spirit, but did you use the spell to restore hit points? You didn't, technically, use the spell to do that.

You used goodberry to enchant some berries.

You used healing spirit to conjure a spirit.

The fact that those berries and that spirit restore hit points is nice, and may even have been your goal, but you didn't cast a spell to restore hit points to a creature.


I wouldn't rule this way, personally, but it's a valid way to rule. Getting too thrust-chested and clench-jawed about how someone is "house ruling" when they don't agree with your interpretation invites more fine parsings which undermine your interpretation.

Given that any spell that heals multiple people is clearly meant to benefit from Life Cleric's Domain power, I'd rule in favor of the goodberry working as intended.

[col_impact]

"Rule" doesn't necessarily mean "house rule" in the sense that you're changing the RAW for your table. It can just mean interpreting. In this case, though, that would be a house rule.

What's more questionable is whether goodberry and healing spirit even CAN benefit from Life Cleric. "Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature," is the triggering condition. Sure, you cast goodberry and/or healing spirit, but did you use the spell to restore hit points? You didn't, technically, use the spell to do that.

You used goodberry to enchant some berries.

You used healing spirit to conjure a spirit.

The fact that those berries and that spirit restore hit points is nice, and may even have been your goal, but you didn't cast a spell to restore hit points to a creature.


I wouldn't rule this way, personally, but it's a valid way to rule. Getting too thrust-chested and clench-jawed about how someone is "house ruling" when they don't agree with your interpretation invites more fine parsings which undermine your interpretation.

Given that any spell that heals multiple people is clearly meant to benefit from Life Cleric's Domain power, I'd rule in favor of the goodberry working as intended.

It's just a rules interaction that has been officially ruled upon by Jeremy Crawford. So the combo works RAW by FAQ.

[Segev]

It's just a rules interaction that has been officially ruled upon by Jeremy Crawford. So the combo works RAW by FAQ.

It certainly does work within the RAW. The way I described it being nullified also works within the RAW. JC's rulings are just rulings. They may apply in AL, but the don't change the meaning of the RAW. At best, they reveal RAI. At worst, they reveal his personal house rules that actively conflict with the RAW (or invent things that in no way are suggested by them).

[col_impact]

It certainly does work within the RAW. The way I described it being nullified also works within the RAW. JC's rulings are just rulings. They may apply in AL, but the don't change the meaning of the RAW. At best, they reveal RAI. At worst, they reveal his personal house rules that actively conflict with the RAW (or invent things that in no way are suggested by them).

Well in AL the Stack Exchange Compendium is official FAQ which changes the RAW.

[Segev]

Well in AL the Stack Exchange Compendium is official FAQ which changes the RAW.

Nope. It tells you how the AL judges are going to rule in order to keep the rulings consistent from table to table in AL. The RAW are literally the rules as written. Unless and until they publish updated books, or errata for the same, the rules are written as they are written.

You're not convincing anybody with these arguments. You're coming off in a negative light, as if you're telling people that only by agreeing with your specific interpretations can they be "right." Given that you're often relying on edge cases and strange interpretations of the rules, this falls flat, and just makes you look bad. I strongly suggest, at least when discussing 5e mechanics, that you embrace the "rulings, not rules" mindset, and discuss from a position of, "If you're running it with this interpretation..." rather than "it is this way because I or JC say so."

[col_impact]

Nope. It tells you how the AL judges are going to rule in order to keep the rulings consistent from table to table in AL. The RAW are literally the rules as written. Unless and until they publish updated books, or errata for the same, the rules are written as they are written.

You're not convincing anybody with these arguments. You're coming off in a negative light, as if you're telling people that only by agreeing with your specific interpretations can they be "right." Given that you're often relying on edge cases and strange interpretations of the rules, this falls flat, and just makes you look bad. I strongly suggest, at least when discussing 5e mechanics, that you embrace the "rulings, not rules" mindset, and discuss from a position of, "If you're running it with this interpretation..." rather than "it is this way because I or JC say so."

The AL FAQ is erratta. Your playgroup can ignore it, but it is official Errata.

[Segev]

The AL FAQ is erratta. Your playgroup can ignore it, but it is official Eratta.

Is it? I haven't actually seen this claim ever backed up. Pathfinder did things that way (frustratingly, since they sometimes contradicted themselves), but 5e has not, to my knowledge (which is good, because JC is prone to self-contradiction, as well, because his rulings are very on-the-spot for what he thinks sounds balanced and/or avoiding cheese when he gets a question).

[col_impact]

Is it? I haven't actually seen this claim ever backed up. Pathfinder did things that way (frustratingly, since they sometimes contradicted themselves), but 5e has not, to my knowledge (which is good, because JC is prone to self-contradiction, as well, because his rulings are very on-the-spot for what he thinks sounds balanced and/or avoiding cheese when he gets a question).

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/sage-advice-june2015

[Segev]

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/sage-advice-june2015
That has a link to an errata document. It does not say that the AL FAQ is errata.

You can point to items in the errata document to uphold claims that it is errata to the RAW, not to Sage Advice nor the AL FAQ.

[col_impact]

That has a link to an errata document. It does not say that the AL FAQ is errata.

You can point to items in the errata document to uphold claims that it is errata to the RAW, not to Sage Advice nor the AL FAQ.
The FAQ is a collection of official rulings by the officially recognized highest authority on rule matters. Print it and have it handy for your games. Its an official document.

[kazaryu]

The FAQ is a collection of official rulings by the officially recognized highest authority on rule matters. Print it and have it handy for your games. Its an official document.

no thanks. As a DM i feel no particular need to invite a different DM to come in and dictate rules interpretations to me.

[col_impact]

no thanks. As a DM i feel no particular need to invite a different DM to come in and dictate rules interpretations to me.

Players have an expectation that you follow the FAQ or otherwise notify them day 1 of how your rulings depart from the FAQ.

It is an official document from the makers of the game telling players and dms alike how to play the game.

[Boci]

Players have an expectation that you follow the FAQ or otherwise notify them day 1 of how your rulings depart from the FAQ.

No they don't. A fair few players won;t even know the FAQs are a thing, and most who do will assume they only apply when explicitly stated. I wouldn't expect my DM to specify that, its not a big enough of an issue to matter for me.

[Segev]

Players have an expectation that you follow the FAQ or otherwise notify them day 1 of how your rulings depart from the FAQ.

It is an official document from the makers of the game telling players and dms alike how to play the game.

I find that players in non-AL games (and even newbies to AL) will be more likely to want to know how things diverge from the PHB-as-written, than anything else. And if there's any question, will default to asking their DM over looking to see if there's an online article telling them how somebody else ruled it. "Official" or not.

Can we please stop harping on this and focus on the actual subject of the threads, please, col_impact? You've asserted your point, people have asserted counter-points, and you're just repeating yourself as if insisting it makes it more convincing. It isn't working, and isn't constructive.

[stoutstien]

I don't even follow the RAW pass the basic stuff even in the few occasions where I did cover down for the local AL tables. Surprising nothing spontaneous combusted and no one kicked the door down to drag me away to d&d jail.

[col_impact]

I find that players in non-AL games (and even newbies to AL) will be more likely to want to know how things diverge from the PHB-as-written, than anything else. And if there's any question, will default to asking their DM over looking to see if there's an online article telling them how somebody else ruled it. "Official" or not.

Can we please stop harping on this and focus on the actual subject of the threads, please, col_impact? You've asserted your point, people have asserted counter-points, and you're just repeating yourself as if insisting it makes it more convincing. It isn't working, and isn't constructive.

You are right. My experience of the game revolves around tier 4 play and PvP. It's at that level where the rules get ironed out to the tiniest morsel and you need a 3rd party resource/official FAQ to settle disputes. So I should preface my statements as coming from that background which may not be relevant to a lot of players or player environments.

[Segev]

PvP is definitely not what 5e is designed for. It will lead to some weird interactions. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's definitely an unusual case in my experience.

[col_impact]

PvP is definitely not what 5e is designed for. It will lead to some weird interactions. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's definitely an unusual case in my experience.

Tier 4 play and PvP go hand in hand. To play tier 4 you need a completely ironed out set of rules.

[Dudu]

If you houserule something because its OP thats a good sign that its S tier.
What demands the houserule isn't the spell per se, but the interaction of a class feature on it.

Should a class feature make a spell 4x more efficient? Pretty sure by RAI it isn't.

[sambojin]

Yay! I helped devolve an actually fairly good thread into the cesspit that is DnD discussions, without even trying, with two people that actually agree that a certain spell "is good".

Focus people! Back to the topic at hand! Goodberry should be rated higher, you're both "not wrong", the original poster of a highly subjective thread is! Lol :)

(remember what the OP said about it not being about edge-cases? I hate to say, life clerics with goodberry *is* an edge case, and has no bearing on anything)


((I'm also not saying that this isn't some of the funniest human behaviour in action, but it is the sort of street theatre we probably don't need, even during distancing....

:sad claps:
))

[MrStabby]

Ok... so I have been provoked into defending the honour of a couple of my favourite spells.

So firstly, there is the question of the spell in isolation or in the class context.

For example I would rate command a lot more highly. This spell is exceptional, however it is on the cleric list (which I will get on to in a moment).
I think this is better than dissonant whispers from T2 onwards. Sure the whispers does an extra 10 damage but command has a few other tricks. Firstly the move is on the enemies turn rather than immediately. This does two things: it let's some of your team get into position to smack them when they move (or to cast a spell like animate objects). This can make up for the lost damage. Secondly it takes an enemy out of action for two turns if they are a melee enemy (often the most likely to fail a wisdom save) - one to run away and one to run back. How long do combats really last for? Two rounds out is a long time. Add on that you can move in this time and you can be looking at even greater inconvenience. What else can take an enemy out of combat for this long and doesn't even need concentration? All of this is just from the one command closest to dissonant whispers. There are other examples given and plenty more to be tried. Even outside of the combat uses there are commands like "disclose" and "confess", "donate", "disarm" to play around with.

This is where the context comes in. The spell has a weakness when it comes to undead. If you are a cleric then an undead rich encounter isn't a problem as you have plenty of other powerful tools for that. On a divine soul sorcerer it might hurt more. On the other hand, the benefits of the spell being so versatile are a bit less on a cleric as they are a prepared spell casting class with a huge number of spells prepared. They can usually afford a couple of spells to cover the other functions of command.

So yeah, I think command is an awesome spell.


The other one is wrathful smite - sure you rated it highly, but I would put it even better. Certainly better than hellish rebuke. The extra damage is pitiful, although every little extra helps. The control element is just so good - trying to shake it off with an ability check at disadvantage is tough. The restrictions on movement give you great control.

Again the context is important. It is a paladin spell so two attacks, two chances to land it per turn. A class that gets reach weapons and a class that quickly gets great at holding concentration saves (cha to saves and access to heavy armour). For a level 1 slot and a bonus action? Yes please.

[LudicSavant]

If a 20th-level character with one level of life cleric is about to finish a long rest having cast no spells that day, they can shoot all of their slots on Goodberry and have 1550 hit points in their pocket for the next 24 hours.

So on that next day, having cast Goodberry zero times that day, but thanks to Goodberry, I have over twice as many hit points as the 9th-level spell Mass Heal. So it’s like having two extra 9th-level spells in my pocket. Granted, Mass Heal has other benefits, but so does Goodberry.

So we have a minimum standard for C Tier 1st-level spells: With zero castings of the spell after a long rest, achieve over twice the results of a ninth level spell.

I know I cheated because this only works with a level of life cleric, but still. Maybe bump it up to at least B Tier?

His argument is that no amount of out of combat healing, no matter how great, is useful enough for B tier because "it's redundant, you can just buy that many healing potions."

When asked why he thought he could always count on that much cash, he insisted it was "default D&D."

When asked where it was established that this was default, he stopped replying to the thread.

:smallconfused:

[Ortho]

If a 20th-level character with one level of life cleric is about to finish a long rest having cast no spells that day, they can shoot all of their slots on Goodberry and have 1550 hit points in their pocket for the next 24 hours.

So on that next day, having cast Goodberry zero times that day, but thanks to Goodberry, I have over twice as many hit points as the 9th-level spell Mass Heal. So it’s like having two extra 9th-level spells in my pocket. Granted, Mass Heal has other benefits, but so does Goodberry.

So we have a minimum standard for C Tier 1st-level spells: With zero castings of the spell after a long rest, achieve over twice the results of a ninth level spell.

I know I cheated because this only works with a level of life cleric, but still. Maybe bump it up to at least B Tier?

The disadvantage here is that once you get to this point you do have to start worrying about being ambushed while eating the berries. Even at this level it's still an action to eat a single berry, and 2201 berries * 6 seconds per action = 1320 seconds or 22 minutes, just to eat them all. 21:48 if the Fighter2 uses Action Surge3.



1: I think I got that number right? At 20th level, Clerics have a 22 levels worth of spell slots at 10 berries per slot.
2: A Thief with Fast Hands could do it in 11 minutes, but funnily enough I think that interpretation of RAW is mutually exclusive with the interpretation that the Life Cleric-Goodberry combo works in the first place.4
3: 10:54 with a Fighter 17/Thief 3 multiclass, assuming you allow the above footnote to work.
4: But I am also slightly sleep deprived, so I will be back tomorrow to clarify what I mean.
[/LIST]

[Zetakya]

1: I think I got that number right? At 20th level, Clerics have a 22 levels worth of spell slots at 10 berries per slot.

Full Casters have 22 Spell Slots, but a total of 84 spell levels worth.

[Chronos]

My table doesn't even allow multiclassing, so the Life Cleric greatberry thing is purely theoretical from my point of view anyway. But even without that, Goodberry is still a great spell.

And yeah, we've done the thing of helping out NPCs with it, too.

[Deathtongue]

Are these spells rated for when you first get them? Because a lot of these spells, while great at low level, really drop off in utility as the game goes on. Like Thunderwave and Guiding Bolt and Feather Fall. And some of these spells are so-so when you first get them but near-mandatory as the game goes on, like Absorb Elements and Protection from Evil and Good.

[Evaar]

It seems strange to me to downrank a spell like Goodberry on the assumption that characters will have endless gold with which to buy healing potions, but then also downrank a spell like Armor of Agathys on the assumption that characters cannot upcast it using higher slots because it is then no longer a 1st level spell.

The first seems to structure the guide around the long-term, supposing characters will earn a lot of gold as they adventure. The second seems to structure the guide around the short-term, supposing this advice is strictly for low levels when only 1st level slots are available.

There's a case to be made for each of those guide structures, but I think you weaken your analysis if you don't plant your flag in one of them firmly.

[KorvinStarmast]

Should a class feature make a spell 4x more efficient? Pretty sure by RAI it isn't. The Sage Advice Compendium signed off by Crawford says that it is. Take that as a good sign that RAI, it is. :smallcool:

@Chronos: you don't need to multiclass to do that. Magic Initiate suffices.

[Segev]

The Sage Advice Compendium signed off by Crawford says that it is. Take that as a good sign that RAI, it is. :smallcool:

@Chronos: you don't need to multiclass to do that. Magic Initiate suffices.

Magic Initiate does limit it to 1/day, though. Not "however many spare spell slots you have by the end of the day."

[JumboWheat01]

Magic Initiate does limit it to 1/day, though. Not "however many spare spell slots you have by the end of the day."

On the other hand, that's a "spell slot" that can't be used by anything else, so you can blow away all your slots on everything else and STILL be able to make at least some slightly improved Goodberries before you go to sleep.

[KorvinStarmast]

Magic Initiate does limit it to 1/day, though. Not "however many spare spell slots you have by the end of the day." OK, I see the point you were making: about other spell slots, not the MI spell slot.
Got it.

[ad_hoc]

It seems strange to me to downrank a spell like Goodberry on the assumption that characters will have endless gold with which to buy healing potions, but then also downrank a spell like Armor of Agathys on the assumption that characters cannot upcast it using higher slots because it is then no longer a 1st level spell.

The first seems to structure the guide around the long-term, supposing characters will earn a lot of gold as they adventure. The second seems to structure the guide around the short-term, supposing this advice is strictly for low levels when only 1st level slots are available.

There's a case to be made for each of those guide structures, but I think you weaken your analysis if you don't plant your flag in one of them firmly.

Not endless, but plentiful amount of gold. Healing Potions are on the equipment list and past the first couple levels until the party buys the armour they want they are the main source of things to spend gold on.

On the other hand, the comparison of Armour of Agathys is a completely different thing. If we're looking at the upcasting, say to a 3rd level spell, then we need to compare it to other 3rd level spells. It's just not very good in that comparison.

The game is designed so that most of the game is played in the 3-10 range. That is what is what the experience table shows and what has been seen to be the most popular level range. Levels 1 and 2 go by so quickly as to be negligible. Levels 3 and 4 also go by much quicker than levels 5-10 (they speed up again at level 11+).

I make most of my comparisons weighted towards play at level 5 but still keeping in mind lower levels.

At level 5 what is a more impactful spell most of the time, Armour of Agathys or Hunger of Hadar? I can't see how C Tier isn't the perfect spot for it. Take it but with caution.

[LudicSavant]

Please point out to us what wealth guidelines you are reading in the book that you are declaring as "default D&D."

Also please point out to us where in the book you got the idea that "interacting with an object" is analogous to "Use an Object action."

It's starting to seem like every time you claim something's in the book, and then people ask you where you found it, you just stop replying on that subject.

[Ortho]

Not endless, but plentiful amount of gold. Healing Potions are on the equipment list and past the first couple levels until the party buys the armour they want they are the main source of things to spend gold on.

Look, you've got 5 pages worth of people telling you that Goodberry is rated incorrectly. What's it going to take for you to revise your rating?

[Deathtongue]

Please point out to us what wealth guidelines you are reading in the book that you are declaring as "default D&D."

Given the way they chunk levels, I assume they're using AL wealth guidelines. Which... as of Season 8 and 9 are actually pretty stingy until T3! 50 gp isn't chump change when as a level 8 character you can expect to get 240 gp max in a session.

[LudicSavant]

50 gp isn't chump change when as a level 8 character you can expect to get 240 gp max in a session.

Yeah.

In fact we can determine the value of Goodberry in healing potions. For example, a level 1 slot Goodberry from anyone with Life Cleric 1 is worth 40hp. A health potion is worth 7hp for 50 gold. So 50/7 = ~7.14. ~7.14*40 = ~285.71gp worth of hit points. Per level 1 slot. (Results rounded to nearest hundredth).

Even if we use just a normal unmodified Goodberry, it's worth ~71.43gp per slot. And of course those can be yesterday's slots. Use up a few of those and you've got hundreds of gold worth of extra healing tomorrow.

It would take a truly enormous amount of assumed wealth in order for Goodberry to be "redundant" with health potions.

[Daphne]

Please point out to us what wealth guidelines you are reading in the book that you are declaring as "default D&D."

If you follow the DMG exp per day table exactly, Tier 2 has the slowest advancement rate.

[LudicSavant]

If you follow the DMG exp per day table exactly, Tier 2 has the slowest advancement rate.

Okay, but what does that have to do with my question about wealth?

[Chaos Jackal]

At level 5 what is a more impactful spell most of the time, Armour of Agathys or Hunger of Hadar?

Armor of Agathys actually. Lasts for a while, will very likely deal 30 damage with no save and cover 15hp for you on top of it. Especially if you're a melee warlock. It's good against both small groups and single enemies. Won't be much good against ranged opponents, of course, but it's not completely worthless there either.

Hunger of Hadar doesn't scale (which is of key importance when rating a warlock spell), is an upgraded Darkness so it comes with all the issues Darkness causes to your party, can't even be placed as freely as regular Darkness over your party because of friendly fire and isn't that debilitating. You can't even pull Devil's Sight shenanigans as well, because you can't hide in it and enemies will be more inclined to get the hell out of it by virtue of the damage it deals and the fact that no PC is likely to stay in there. On a single tough enemy or a small group of, say, 3, it's worse than Armor of Agathys. Against melee enemies it's worse than Armor of Agathys. On a bigger group you might as well drop Fear or Hypnotic Pattern, which are worth their slot even without scaling. So it's really only better against a small ranged group.

Oh, and of course you can use Armor of Agathys alongside any of the aforementioned spells, Hunger of Hadar included, because it doesn't take concentration. Hunger of Hadar taking concentration puts it in quite a bind since it competes with the aforementioned spells, as well as the ever-present option of Hex.

Hunger of Hadar is a decent spell, but the perks of Armor of Agathys, especially but not only for melee warlocks, are quite impressive.



On the assumptions part. Using the wealth and treasure tables from the DMG doesn't constitute default 5e, any more than 6-8 encounters per day constitutes default 5e. People are often altering or completely disregarding these guidelines. Using AL rules and expectations is better since it can at least be applied to a group definitively, but AL players account for only a certain percentage of 5e players.

It is, of course, practically impossible to settle on a default form of 5e. But we can try approximations based on the experiences and issues of multiple people (for example, the fact alone that you'll rarely see posts on any site complaining about a wizard running out of spells early in the day but you will commonly see warlocks deemed as having very few spell slots suggests that people aren't, in fact, having seven encounters and three or four rests on their average adventuring day). It's easy to see that DMG guidelines aren't often followed, and are, in fact, completely ignored for a substantial percentage of games.

When making power rankings of any sort, you don't make them based on how the game "should" be played; you make them based on a number of ways it's commonly played. This is true for all kinds of games. Just because the manual states something doesn't mean that people will use it. And if an item's purpose in whatever game ends up being completely different than its initial intention, it's by that player-given purpose that you should judge it. Rankings are meant to be applied in actual games, not to be added as sidenotes in rulebooks.

So no, default 5e isn't the wealth tables in the DMG, or the AL, or Matt Mercer's Ye Olde Magick Shoppe 3.5 carryover style. Far from every player is gonna have 1500-2000 gold by 5th level, and in many a case, if they do, there will likely be better things to spend them on implemented outside of full plate and healing potions.

[Deathtongue]

On the assumptions part. Using the wealth and treasure tables from the DMG doesn't constitute default 5e, any more than 6-8 encounters per day constitutes default 5e. People are often altering or completely disregarding these guidelines. Using AL rules and expectations is better since it can at least be applied to a group definitively, but AL players account for only a certain percentage of 5e players.Over the past three years with 5E D&D, I play about 50% face-to-face AL, 15% face-to-face home games, and 35% on-line. My experience is that Adventurer's League is much stingier with gp than most tables, though I have played at more than a handful of home game tables where the entire party at level 6 - 8 didn't have a thousand gold pieces total.

I know in my guides I handwave a lot of the costs of stuff like Simulacrum and Planar Binding (even though I shouldn't, because after Season 7 you can't afford Simulacrum for most or even a third of your games unless you do weird crap with gold like play TftYP) but from levels 1 - 10 it really is a huge concern. Both in my AL experience and home game experience.

[Tanarii]

Given the way they chunk levels, I assume they're using AL wealth guidelines. Which... as of Season 8 and 9 are actually pretty stingy until T3! 50 gp isn't chump change when as a level 8 character you can expect to get 240 gp max in a session.
That's insanely low compared to the DMG tables.

Probably because everyone had Healing Potions coming out their ears. :smallamused:

[Deathtongue]

That's insanely low compared to the DMG tables.

Probably because everyone had Healing Potions coming out their ears. :smallamused:That might be why -- Seasons 3 - 6 gave out a LOT of gold pieces relative to later seasons. Season 7 (Tomb of Annihilation) really turned it down, but they really started clamping down Season 8.

That said, a lot of home games I've played in give way less gold than the DMG tables suggested as well, so it's not just an AL thing. Since 5E D&D doesn't really give most players a lot to spend their money on without DM intervention once you get full-plate, I don't find it all that uncommon for DMs to hand out 500 gp quest rewards for a level 8 party.

[sambojin]

Yeah.

In fact we can determine the value of Goodberry in healing potions. For example, a level 1 slot Goodberry from anyone with Life Cleric 1 is worth 40hp. A health potion is worth 7hp for 50 gold. So 50/7 = ~7.14. ~7.14*40 = ~285.71gp worth of hit points. Per level 1 slot. (Results rounded to nearest hundredth).

Even if we use just a normal unmodified Goodberry, it's worth ~71.43gp per slot. And of course those can be yesterday's slots. Use up a few of those and you've got hundreds of gold worth of extra healing tomorrow.

It would take a truly enormous amount of assumed wealth in order for Goodberry to be "redundant" with health potions.

It also mostly comes from a class with one of the lowest gold requirements of any. Got your crappy cheap armour, your shield, a bag of rocks, a twig of holly and your stick? Well, you're pretty much done gearing as a druid. After that it's all adventure rewards, hirelings, bribes, expensive spells or magic marts, and it just so happens that you saved 70-140gp a day, just for that.


Oh, and as a side note, yes, Command is a very good spell. In situations that *always* come up (unlike Feather Fall. There are far more creatures than there are cliffs in the average adventuring day). But it's already a B (even though it probably should be an A or S), so no real biggy on that. It is a "this is what I reckon" list.

Who knows? Maybe the OP has been using these spells for their more basic effects, maybe their uses didn't really come up too often in the adventures/campaigns they've played in, maybe they just didn't feel too impactful. You remember when Feather Fall saves your life (and some DMs love cliff-top fights as an interesting encounter modifier), you don't really remember when Goodberry yo-yo'd you or gave someone an advantage in a social situation, or when Command "did a thing", because lots of spells "do a thing" (and because there's other ways of doing those things. There's not too many ways to not go splat at lvls1-3. Or to not go splat from your flying mount/spell at higher levels. Where-as druids just laugh at this safety feature from lvl8 onwards, while Wizards don't understand why people think Bless, Command and Goodberry are S tier. It's not a thing that helps them in an impactful way (even if it really, really does)).


Wizards: "Oh noes! I got hit while I was flying on my flying spell! Thankfully, I have Feather Fall prepared!"

Druids: "Wait... You have a flying spell? Specifically for flying? For ten minutes? And you also have a spell to make sure your flying spell doesn't kill you? Hmmmm.... I just summon in some giant eagles for an hour and then turn into a warhorse or direwolf or something on the way down if I get hit and they disappear. Warhorses are rated as drop-safe from up to 60' as far as I'm concerned. More than double that for direwolves! It barely even stings. And I've got all these yummy berries as well. Do you even have a parachute license?"

[Toofey]

What? You guys have unseen servant as D tier? It is hands down the single most useful 1st level spell, and can alleviate most of party's camping and resource maintenance needs outside of combat.

Unseen servant would be one of the best first level spells without being usable in combat, but it instead provides actions at the cost of bonus actions for any action usable objects. From healing kits, to caltrops, Unseen servant makes some of the most useful combat actions available to you at a discount... from a distance.

Oh, and it last for an hour, with no concentration.


So... why is this in the D tier and not S?

[Deathtongue]

What? You guys have unseen servant as D tier? It is hands down the single most useful 1st level spell, and can alleviate most of party's camping and resource maintenance needs outside of combat. I don't know about most useful. While there's a lot of useful things you can do with the Unseen Servant, the range limitation requires you to slow down and babysit the Unseen Servant and it can be a serious drag on exploration efficiency. I could see an 'A' rating, but not an 'S' one. To qualify for S-rating, it needs to be able to either regularly save your butt (like Shield) or have an effect way out of line for its level (like Goodberry).

[Segev]

I’ve begun to quest the “babysitting” requirement. It only ends if you give it a task that moves it away from you, not if you move away from it. By the way it’s worded, it may actually keep pace with you by default, since the fifteen foot move rate is about where you can send it.

[Deathtongue]

I’ve begun to quest the “babysitting” requirement. It only ends if you give it a task that moves it away from you, not if you move away from it. By the way it’s worded, it may actually keep pace with you by default, since the fifteen foot move rate is about where you can send it.The Unseen Servant is not a creature, so it doesn't have movement and thus can't move without a special action to move it. Like other conjurations. And since the only command you can give it is "mentally command the servant to move up to 15 feet AND interact with an object", you can't just tell it to interact with an object and cheat yourself some extra movement.

It's debatable whether you can give it a command from 120 feet away to come closer (and do whatever) 15 feet without causing it to disappear. But you can only move it 15 feet at a time, so you're not getting around the babysitting.

[Segev]

The Unseen Servant is not a creature, so it doesn't have movement and thus can't move without a special action to move it. Like other conjurations. And since the only command you can give it is "mentally command the servant to move up to 15 feet AND interact with an object", you can't just tell it to interact with an object and cheat yourself some extra movement.

It's debatable whether you can give it a command from 120 feet away to come closer (and do whatever) 15 feet without causing it to disappear. But you can only move it 15 feet at a time, so you're not getting around the babysitting.

That's assuming it's stationary if you don't command it, rather than simply staying with you. The wording of the spell could imply that it doesn't leave the 60 foot radius unless you try to order it to (in which case it poofs). Now, it could also mean that it can be left behind without poofing, but that the moment you try to order it to move anywhere without re-aquiring 60-foot-or-less separation, it vanishes.

I'm liking the conception of it as maintaining relative distance to you, basing its position on being "placed within range," unless given other orders. You can move it 15 feet per round relative to yourself, but it otherwise stays there. If you gave it some task that requires it to stay put relative to something else, it can, as long as you don't order it to also move 15 feet absolute and don't try to make it leave the 60 foot radius while "staying."

Now, this is far more complex than the spell wording. But the spell wording is vague, and the fact that it leaves out any discussion of you moving out of range of it is confusing. What I'm proposing is mainly a QoL adjustment, though I'm sure somebody could find a way to cheese it.

[Pleh]

That's assuming it's stationary if you don't command it, rather than simply staying with you. The wording of the spell could imply that it doesn't leave the 60 foot radius unless you try to order it to (in which case it poofs). Now, it could also mean that it can be left behind without poofing, but that the moment you try to order it to move anywhere without re-aquiring 60-foot-or-less separation, it vanishes.

I'm liking the conception of it as maintaining relative distance to you, basing its position on being "placed within range," unless given other orders. You can move it 15 feet per round relative to yourself, but it otherwise stays there. If you gave it some task that requires it to stay put relative to something else, it can, as long as you don't order it to also move 15 feet absolute and don't try to make it leave the 60 foot radius while "staying."

Now, this is far more complex than the spell wording. But the spell wording is vague, and the fact that it leaves out any discussion of you moving out of range of it is confusing. What I'm proposing is mainly a QoL adjustment, though I'm sure somebody could find a way to cheese it.

Based on how I read it, it acts in all ways like a human servant, except it can only act and move as commanded with the caster's bonus action. I don't see a reason it would float along with the caster at whatever pace the caster was moving. If the caster is in a vehicle and the US appears in the vehicle as well, it would be transported just as a human servant would. Anything else seems like it would be trying to exploit the ambiguity for profit.

[Toofey]

It can only move 15' and the caster must remain withing 60' of the unseen servant. the way I typically use it is that I have a pack with stuff to use in it and track it's movement separately just keeping track of the 60' range requirement.

edit: when it's an approved use by the DM (some DM's don't like this) I make the other party members keep kealing kits on their person so I don't need to get equipment to them. You can also Throw things 'to' the unseen servant like bags of caltrops or skins of oil.

[Satori01]

[QUOTE=Satori01;24433947]

I don’t see in the quote you give where it says it is the Use An Object action.

Sorry was quoting from memory. It is page 139 of the DMG in the magic items sections...under Potions.

[Satori01]

Indeed, it says no such thing. Satori's just wrong.



The rulebooks would beg to differ.

Pg 139 in DMG , in the magic item section under Potions. This is a copy paste of the section. Dude, it is in print. Do a google search and find the Crawford Twitter quote.

POTIONS
Different kinds of magical liquids are grouped in the category of potions: brews made from enchanted herbs, water from magical fountains or sacred springs, and oils that are applied to a creature or an object. Most potions consist of one ounce of liquid.
Potions are consumable magic items. Drinking a potion or administering it to another character requires an action. Applying an oil might take longer, as specified in its description. Once used, a potion takes effect immedi* ately, and it is used up

[LudicSavant]

Sorry was quoting from memory. It is page 139 of the DMG in the magic items sections...under Potions.

Segev's not asking you what page it's on. He's telling you that the quote doesn't actually say anything that would help your argument.


This is a copy paste of the section. Dude, it is in print. Uhm, we know? And in that quote, it says nothing at all about potions using the Use an Object action. As was just pointed out to you, by myself and multiple others.

The books are quite clear on the matter. Here's a quote that actually does say something on the matter:


If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action. Some magic items and other special objects always require an action to use, as stated in their descriptions.


If an item requires an action to activate, that action isn't a function of the Use an Object action, so a feature such as the rogue's Fast Hands can't be used to activate the item.

People aren't objecting to your post because they don't believe the quote exists. They are objecting to your post because the quote doesn't make the point you believe it does.

[Satori01]

Interacting with an object is not the same as Use Object.
Just as Casting a Spell, is not the same action as the Attack Action.

It might seem silly to some, but as the 5e Action Economy is constituted, dumping a magic potion requires the much more involved Use Object action.

Does the Unseen Servant spell allow the mindless force to take Use Object?

Once on each of your turns as a bonus action, you can mentally command the servant to move up to 15 feet and interact with an object. The servant can perform simple tasks that a human servant could do, such as fetching things, cleaning, mending, folding clothes, lighting fires, serving food, and pouring wine. Once you give the command, the servant performs the task to the best of its ability until it completes the task, then waits for your next Once on each of your turns as a bonus action, you can mentally command the servant to move up to 15 feet and interact with an object. The servant can perform simple tasks that a human servant could do, such as fetching things, cleaning, mending, folding clothes, lighting fires, serving food, and pouring wine. Once you give the command, the servant performs the task to the best of its ability until it completes the task, then waits for your next command.

[LudicSavant]

Interacting with an object is not the same as Use Object. That is what we've been trying to tell you.


dumping a magic potion requires the much more involved Use Object action.

It explicitly IS NOT the Use Object action.


If an item requires an action to activate, that action isn't a function of the Use an Object action, so a feature such as the rogue's Fast Hands can't be used to activate the item.

What part of that rule is ambiguous to you?

[Chaos Jackal]

As others have said, pg141 of the DMG explicitly states that using a magic item isn't the Use Object action. A potion is a magic item. Thus, it takes an action to administer. But that action isn't Use Object.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I'm late to the party but if I could give up so many core class features in order to cast Command at-will... Or just have the ability to use Intimidate versus Insight and do the same things.

What I would give up...

Rage (change subclasses to work based off new feature)
Action Surge
Wildshape
Channel Divinity
Martial Arts

Actually I now want to make some alternate class features based around this.

[KorvinStarmast]

As others have said, pg141 of the DMG explicitly states that using a magic item isn't the Use Object action. A potion is a magic item. Thus, it takes an action to administer. But that action isn't Use Object.
Hmm, I am not so sure about that. We see it as a mundane item.
It's on the PHB equipment list for purchase.

[Chaos Jackal]

Hmm, I am not so sure about that. We see it as a mundane item.
It's on the PHB equipment list for purchase.

There's no rule stating that the equipment list is composed of mundane items. Potions in D&D are typically among the most easily accessible magic items. Throughout the DMG's fluff, treasure descriptions, crafting rules, examples etc. potions are repeatedly stated to be magic items. The very description for potions of healing in the PHB states the liquid is magical.

RAW, potions are magic items beyond any doubt, and are thus excepted from the Use Object action.

[Tanarii]

Hmm, I am not so sure about that. We see it as a mundane item.
It's on the PHB equipment list for purchase. "Potion of Healing. A character who drinks the magical red fluid in this vial regains 2d4 + 2 hit points. Drinking or administering a potion takes an action"
(Emphasis mine)

I alsO vaguely recall a dev comment it's in italics on said list because it's the name of the magic item. But I notice the other italics are foci, but also foci are sub-headers, and ammunition (also a sub-header) is in italics. So if I had to guess at one point the table had multiple kinds of potions of healing and now there's only the one, but the italics got left in.

[KorvinStarmast]

The very description for potions of healing in the PHB states the liquid is magical. The item is mundane (the flask) and the potion inside is magical. The Unseen Servant can pour the liquid out of the flask (the U.S. is not using the magical fluid) and into the oral orifice of a PC or NPC, just as it can pour wine from a bottle. It is then holding an empty flask.

See spell description for what an Unseen Servant can do.


"Once on each of your tuns as a bonus action, you can mentally command the servant to move up to 15 feet and interact with an object. The servant can perform simple tasks that a human servant could do, such as fetching things, cleaning, mending, folding clothes, lighting fires, serving food, and pouring wine. Once you give the command, the servant performs the task to the best of its ability until it completes the task, then waits for your next command. The flask is the object.

Now, if we were talking about an "Eversmoking Bottle" where the bottle itself is magical, r something like a wand of magic missiles, I'd tend to agree with you.

[Deathtongue]

The item is mundane (the flask) and the potion inside is magical.What makes you say that? Why WOULDN'T the flask be magical? Heck, Xanathar's Guide to Everything flat-out states on page 82 for Glassblower's Tools: "For instance, you can study how a glass potion bottle has been changed by its contents to help determine a potion's effects. (A potion might leave behind a residue, deform the glass, or stain it)."

[Chaos Jackal]

The item is mundane (the flask) and the potion inside is magical.

So what, a Thief can use it as a bonus action? When Fast Hands is even the specific example used to differentiate magic item and object usage? That's some very deliberate, very cheesy reading.
Luckily, we're covered again. It's a consumable. A specific type of magic item. Conveniently described right below the aforementioned rule about Use Object and activating magic items in DMG pg141. Those same items that use an action other than Use Object to activate.

You can, of course, treat the vial as a separate object. I don't have any issue with each table's houserules. But don't go about saying that it's RAW.

[KorvinStarmast]

So what, a Thief can use it as a bonus action? We are discussing Unseen Servant, the spell. And it is certainly RAW based on the spell description of US. Pouring a potion out of a flask is not more complicated than pouring wine out of a bottle.

The attitude that you are displaying is what drives people away from D&D (and specifically, it's the kind of stuff that drove my son away from D&D 3.5e in college).

What makes you say that? Why WOULDN'T the flask be magical?
Why would it be? The value is in the potion. When you are done, you could, for example, fill it with wine ... it's a flask.

XGtE is optional rules / suggestions in any case, so I am not sure why you are draggin that into this discussion.

[Chaos Jackal]

We are discussing Unseen Servant, the spell.

For the record, I never claimed that Unseen Servants can't give someone a potion. I believe they can.

We might be discussing the spell, but what you're claiming has effects beyond the spell. If you're unwilling to consider them or willing to handwave them, again, fine. As I said, I have no issue with each table's houserules. We all have our own. We make compromises.

We're also discussing RAW. And no amount of houseruling changes the fact that the moment you say a bottle is separate from the potion, then RAW, a thief can use it as a bonus action. Which is clearly against RAW. A potion is a magic item with the consumable description, as mentioned in the post above.

Honestly, given your tone, I have no further interest in discussing this with you. Believe what you like.

[Boci]

We're also discussing RAW. And no amount of houseruling changes the fact that the moment you say a bottle is separate from the potion, then RAW, a thief can use it as a bonus action. Which is clearly against RAW.

Yes, but silly RAW often hold nearly as much value as neutral or smart RAW. Much like drown healing in 3.5, silly RAW if often freely houseruled away in tables (unless its integral to game balance), and of value only in purely theoretical discussions involving game states practically no one plays in, which doesn't seem to be the intention of this thread.

If an Unseen Servant not being able to administer a potion silly? Quite possible. If an Unseen Servant can give a flask of wine to a downed character, them why won't a potion work? What changes? The Unseen Servant suddenly misses the mouth, the potion refses to pour, the liquid loses its magicness midair? Just saying "It's RAW" whilst maybe true is not that common at tables, especially since D&D is a roleplaying game and that requires an amount of immersion to function properly.

[KorvinStarmast]

For the record, I never claimed that Unseen Servants can't give someone a potion. I believe they can. That was not apparent in your post. Thanks for clearing that up.

When you have two different passages in the rules in two different places that point to two different solutions to the same problem, hanging out the RAW sign strikes me as counterproductive.

But I guess we are done, so thanks anyway.

[Deathtongue]

Why would it be? The value is in the potion. When you are done, you could, for example, fill it with wine ... it's a flask.That doesn't make the flask non-magical. There's no reason to think that the potion flask isn't a magical item as part of the process of filling it with a potion. There are plenty of magical items that cease to become magical based on some exogenous condition, usually by burning it out.

[KorvinStarmast]

That doesn't make the flask non-magical Interesting use of a double negative there.

Pouring potion into the flask does not make the flask itself magical.
The fluid is certainly specified as magical.

Let's say that Deathtongue the Barbarian (level 2) pours a healing potion down a fellow PC's throat.
Left in Deathtongue's hand is a flask, which (fighting being thisty work) he fills up with water from a local fountain.
The flask isn't magical, and neither is the water in the flask.
But if they get thirsty later, Deathtongue will be glad that he can slake his thirst with that pint of water.

[Chaos Jackal]

Yes, but silly RAW often hold nearly as much value as neutral or smart RAW. Much like drown healing in 3.5, silly RAW if often freely houseruled away in tables (unless its integral to game balance), and of value only in purely theoretical discussions involving game states practically no one plays in, which doesn't seem to be the intention of this thread.

If an Unseen Servant not being able to administer a potion silly? Quite possible. If an Unseen Servant can give a flask of wine to a downed character, them why won't a potion work? What changes? The Unseen Servant suddenly misses the mouth, the potion refses to pour, the liquid loses its magicness midair? Just saying "It's RAW" whilst maybe true is not that common at tables, especially since D&D is a roleplaying game and that requires an amount of immersion to function properly.

Yes. We houserule too.

And we already covered this in a previous page. Use Object and interacting with an object isn't the same thing. And as I already said, I believe an Unseen Servant can give someone a potion. RAW too. Hell, I've done it myself.

[Deathtongue]

Pouring potion into the flask does not make the flask itself magical.Where does it say that? Healing potion fluid doesn't exist independently of the container. You can't buy healing potions by the barrel you can then transport into wineskins or mess kits. There are D&D games where you can do that, such as Pathfinder 1.0, but absent of DM intervention the red fluid inside of a potion and the flask itself are chained entities. The former does not exist without the latter -- which is pretty strong evidence that, at least until you consume the fluid, the flask itself is magical.

[Segev]

Ranking unseen servant has a lot more to do, I think, with whether you can find a way to keep it with you. I do still suggest that the spell's text doesn't actually point to the servant staying put and/or vanishing if you move 60 feet from it, only staying put and vanishing if you give it an order that requires it to. The more I think about it, the more I like the notion that the move-15-feet is within that 60 foot radius, not against an absolute (with a caveat that it can anchor itself to a task).

However, I fully understand that others disagree with this, and there are some leaps (which I find totally reasonable ways to close the gaps in the spell text) that others may not appreciate, and would make different leaps instead. So, for those who think that the unseen servant is physically present, I now ask: can it be interacted with? It has AC (10) and hp (1), so it can presumably be attacked. It definitely takes AoE damage. Can it be grappled? It has a Strength score, so we even know what the mechanics for the opposed roll would be (it rolls with a -5 to the d20). How much does it weigh? Can it be carried?

I have a longer post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610103-Yet-another-Unseen-Servant-thread&p=24441170#post24441170) on this, but I fear it's really off-topic in this thread, and I actually have a thread for discussing this spell right now, so I'm going to advise that we move the subject there. I can repost the post here, though, if people prefer to stay on this topic in this thread rather than debating more spell rankings.

[LudicSavant]

Chaos Jackal is correct. The Unseen Servant thing is fairly clear cut in the rules.

1) Magic items are objects that you interact with.

If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action. Some magic items and other special objects always require an action to use, as stated in their descriptions.

2) Magic items are not a function of the "Use an Object" action.

If an item requires an action to activate, that action isn't a function of the Use an Object action, so a feature such as the rogue's Fast Hands can't be used to activate the item.

3) The "Use an Object" action is not used every time or even most times you interact with objects. They do not mean the same thing.

You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of an attack. When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action.

4) Unseen Servant interacts with objects. It is not limited to the Use an Object action.

Once on each of your turns as a bonus action, you can mentally command the servant to move up to 15 feet and interact with an object.

Ergo, so long as the DM rules that pouring a potion is comparably simple to pouring wine, nothing in the rules would prevent that.

[KorvinStarmast]

Chaos Jackal is correct.
Sorry, you are incorrect. Activate is where your diatribe falls down.

You do not need to activate a potion of healing.
It works simply by drinking it.
You pour the potion into the oral orifice of the creature imbibing it.
You can do this for your party ally.
Your US can do it for your party ally as well, since it is no more complicated than pouring wine from a bottle.

Sometimes, overcomplicating things is counterproductive.

[LudicSavant]

Sorry, you are incorrect. Activate is where your diatribe falls down.

You do not need to activate a potion of healing.


Dude, what are you talking about? Speaking a command word, swallowing a potion, applying an oil, and reading a scroll are all given as examples of activating a magic item.


You do not need to activate a potion of healing.
It works simply by drinking it.

To activate something means to do something to make it work. If it works by drinking it, it is activated by drinking it.

[Chaos Jackal]

For reference, directly copied. Emphasis mine wherever added.


Activating some magic items requires a user to do something special, such as holding the item and uttering a command word. The description of each item category or individual item details how a magic item is activated. Certain items use one or more of the following rules for their activation.

Among the item categories mentioned, we have this, on the same page, right below.


Some items are used up when activated. A potion or an elixir must be swallowed, or an oil applied to the body. The writing vanishes from a scroll when it is read. Once used, a consumable item loses its magic.

Consumables are definitively described as falling into the general activating magic item category. A potion is a consumable, therefore imbibing it isn't a Use Object action, but the activation of a magic item. It stops being a magic item once somebody drinks it. Whether or not the liquid and the bottle are treated as different units before drinking it is irrelevant, really, because it is explicitly stated that drinking it is activating a magic item.

Of course, this doesn't mean an Unseen Servant can't pour a potion down somebody's throat. It's still an object interaction of some form, so as long as it can be covered by the loose "simple tasks" caption the Unseen Servant is limited by, all's good. Pouring a liquid almost certainly falls under simple tasks any servant could perform, things an Unseen Servant can do. Therefore, the Unseen Servant can bring that unconscious teammate back on their feet. Or feed them a Goodberry, for that matter. As long as it has it readily available.

No need for any houseruling, no convoluting the system, no need to account for potential unforeseen effects. And no need for any sort of arguing. Most of us agree that an Unseen Servant can give someone a potion. What LudicSavant rightly points out is that there's no need for weird readings of the rules, or implementation of houserules, or murkiness. It works right out of the box.

A DM might rule it differently of course. But there's nothing in the rules actually preventing an Unseen Servant from doing it. Or requiring the houserule separation of bottle and liquid to do it.

[EdenIndustries]

The item is mundane (the flask) and the potion inside is magical. The Unseen Servant can pour the liquid out of the flask (the U.S. is not using the magical fluid) and into the oral orifice of a PC or NPC, just as it can pour wine from a bottle. It is then holding an empty flask.



And as I already said, I believe an Unseen Servant can give someone a potion. RAW too. Hell, I've done it myself.


Chaos Jackal is correct. The Unseen Servant thing is fairly clear cut in the rules.
...
Ergo, so long as the DM rules that pouring a potion is comparably simple to pouring wine, nothing in the rules would prevent that.



Sorry, you are incorrect. Activate is where your diatribe falls down.

@KorvinStarmast - It seems like Chaos Jackal and LudicSavant both agree with you, no? What are you arguing against here?

[KorvinStarmast]

@KorvinStarmast - It seems like Chaos Jackal and LudicSavant both agree with you, no?
Honestly, I am not sure.

To activate something means to do something to make it work. If it works by drinking it, it is activated by drinking it.
The Unseen Servant doesn't drink it; the person that the Unseen Servant is serving it to by pouring it down their throat is doing that which makes the magic of the potion work.

The activation is the drinking, not the pouring.

Thus, the Unseen Servant can serve the potion to the person as I pointed out a few pages back.

For Eden Industries - I guess we are done here. Perhaps we are all simply in violent agreement.

[LudicSavant]

Honestly, I am not sure.
Oi vey.


Thus, the Unseen Servant can serve the potion to the person as I pointed out a few pages back. Kovin, nobody is arguing with you that Unseen Servant can give people the potion. Everyone agrees on that except for Satori and the OP. They're arguing with you because you keep saying things like "healing potions aren't magic items" or "drinking a potion isn't activating a magic item."

Because principles like "if you're drinking or administering, you're not activating" or "if it's on the equipment list, it's not magic (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24440999&postcount=178)" aren't a thing.

And because you keep saying "No, you're wrong, you can use a potion with Unseen Servant" to the very people who are saying that you can use a potion with Unseen Servant. Which is just... oi vey.

[RSP]

Sorry, you are incorrect. Activate is where your diatribe falls down.

You do not need to activate a potion of healing.
It works simply by drinking it.
You pour the potion into the oral orifice of the creature imbibing it.
You can do this for your party ally.
Your US can do it for your party ally as well, since it is no more complicated than pouring wine from a bottle.

Sometimes, overcomplicating things is counterproductive.

So how does the downed party member activate the magic item (the liquid potion) that is in their mouth to gain hit points? By your view of this, it is impossible to revive a downed character with a healing potion.

[Toofey]

I any event, while I doubt you guys would raise it to S can we at least get Unseen Servant boosted to A for it's action economy efficiency and flexibility?

edit: comeon guys, I have to move on to Grease and Sleep, your whole list (ok, not the whole list, but a lot of it) is topsy turvy

[RSP]

I any event, while I doubt you guys would raise it to S can we at least get Unseen Servant boosted to A for it's action economy efficiency and flexibility?

Not sure you need to worry about the legitimacy of this list and getting “corrections”, at this point. Also, it’s not “you guys”, it’s one person who is only concerned with their view of the spells, rather than what others who have actually used them believe.

[KorvinStarmast]

Kovin, nobody is arguing with you that Unseen Servant can give people the potion. Everyone agrees on that except for Satori and the OP. They're arguing with you because you keep saying things like "healing potions aren't magic items" or "drinking a potion isn't activating a magic item." Please do not misrepresent what I have said. It is the ingestion that makes a healing potion work, not the act of pouring the potion out of the flask. And no, the flask is not magical; the potion is.

I deliberately make the distinction between the potion and its container, and that the Unseen Servant serving the potion is well within the rules, when I was told that no, it was not. And that objection is utterly incorrect. Which is why I bothered to respond at all. That's where the argument started, from where I sit.

That the healing potion is on the mundane equipment list makes it an outlier and distinct from all other potions with magical properties in the game.

EDIT:
I think that matters somewhat. The equipment list in the PHB is a list of equipment that can be acquired and used by any character. (THough I think there is a long running debate somewhere about thieves tools).

The line that got this bizarre digression started was the absurdity that it requires activation of a magic item to pour a magic potion down someone's throat. (And that goes for more than just healing potions, most potions require a character or creature to drink it, or to otherwise ingest it, to activate it). A number of you dragged in a variety of red herrings that were not explicitly about
1) Unseen Servant and
2) how to get a healing potion it into someone.

The topic of this discussion is first level spells, and Unseen Servant is a first level spell.

If one were to accept anything to do with "activating magic items" as regards healing potions, then no Rogue other than a Rogue(Thief) at level 13 (Use Magic Device) would be able to or allowed to administer a potion to someone else, which is clearly *not* the case.

EDIT: Hmm, I looked at that passage in the Basic Rules again, and that's a reach. So that's not a good statement.

If you simply agreed with my point on Unseen Servant serving magic potions, I am not sure why any of you chose to drag in the other red herrings.

[RSP]

If one was to accept anything to do with "activating magic items" as regards healing, then no Rogue other than a Rogue(Thief) at level 13 (Use Magic Device) would be able to or allowed to administer a potion to someone else, which is clearly *not* the case.

Not at all. The person administering the potion is, in fact, doing the Activate a Magic Item Action. Again, otherwise, you can not heal any 0 HP character with them, because the 0 HP character is Incapacitated and therefore incapable of using the Activate a Magic Item Action themselves.

[KorvinStarmast]

Not at all. The person administering the potion is, in fact, doing the Activate a Magic Item Action. Again, otherwise, you can not heal any 0 HP character with them, because the 0 HP character is Incapacitated and therefore incapable of using the Activate a Magic Item Action themselves.
Nope.

1. If you pour the healing potion on the ground, nothing happens.
2. If you pour a potion of growth on the ground, nothing happens.

The magic happens when someone drinks or otherwise ingests the potion, which is a magical fluid/liquid per it description.

A rope of climbing, on the other hand, requires activation by command word, for example.

If you hold one end of the rope and use an action to speak the command word, the rope animates.


And just to let you know: I've poured an entire beer down my throat without once swallowing.
(Ah, those days in college, where we learned to do a lot of interesting things).

[RSP]

Nope.

1. If you pour the healing potion on the ground, nothing happens.
2. If you pour a potion of growth on the ground, nothing happens.

The magic happens when someone drinks or otherwise ingests the potion, which is a magical fluid/liquid per it description.

A rope of climbing, on the other hand, requires activation by command word, for example.


And just to let you know: I've poured an entire beer down my throat without once swallowing.
(Ah, those days in college, where we learned to do a lot of interesting things).

So your argument is potions don’t require the Active a Magic Item Action at all, then?

Because, otherwise, someone must be using that Action. It’s either the person pouring the potion into a character’s mouth, or the character who ingests it.

In your US scenario, it cannot be the US, as they are incapable of that Action. Yet, the ingester is also incapable of that Action (or any Action d/t Incapacitated).

[KorvinStarmast]

So your argument is potions don’t require the Active a Magic Item Action at all, then? I've been around the internet to recognize 'the rule of so.'
I think I used the term counterproductive earlier.
I was correct.

[RSP]

I've been around the internet to recognize 'the rule of so.'
I think I used the term counterproductive earlier.
I was correct.

Ignoring the point, isn’t a counterpoint.

Who uses the Activate a Magic Item in your US scenario?

[Chaos Jackal]

I any event, while I doubt you guys would raise it to S can we at least get Unseen Servant boosted to A for it's action economy efficiency and flexibility?

edit: comeon guys, I have to move on to Grease and Sleep, your whole list (ok, not the whole list, but a lot of it) is topsy turvy

This isn't our whole list, as a quick skim of the OP and thread will tell you. We're just here arguing the same thing as what you're saying, that there's a lot wrong with it. Of course, it's rather fruitless since there's no real change in the aforementioned OP, but since it's a forum topic we're offering our insight.

This whole Unseen Servant debate has long been decided as far as utility goes anyway. Now it's just an attempt to show someone that they are ignoring the rules about consumable magic items for no discernible reason.

So feel free to move to Grease and Sleep and whatever else you feel is inappropriately judged. By all means. You aren't interrupting.

[KorvinStarmast]

So feel free to move to Grease and Sleep and whatever else you feel is inappropriately judged. By all means. You aren't interrupting. Great idea.

Grease and Sleep: Where do they belong on the list?

Proposal from the OP.

Grease - C Tier:
Sleep - D Tier (with caveats)

Color Spray/Sleep - These are D Tier after level 2 but quite good in levels 1 and 2.


I will offer that sleep rates a higher ranking, but mostly because I have seen it twice used (by someone else, not me) to disable an enemy that was escaping and the party didn't want it to escape. Both of the enemies had flight and the party did not. That 90' spell range was what made this even possible. It's not that uncommon for an enemy, even a BBEG or a major lieutenant, to see the fight turn against them and withdraw to "fight another day." No save versus the 5d8 (though some creatures are immune) and add 2d8 for each level if up cast). It can stop them (If they have taken a bunch of damage already) and gives the party a chance to restrain them, or keep attacking, whatever.

But I will say this about sleep: being used to it from the "waay back" editions being very effective at low levels, we (in the two play groups where it is even used) have found it rarely useful as a form of crowd control. If the OP feels that sleep is overrated, I think that's a fair take.

[Reynaerde]

Controversial Picks:

Dissonant Whispers - This spell is never talked about. 3d6 save for half is good damage for a first level spell, the same as the standard of Chromatic Orb with 3d8. Using a reaction to move away though provokes OAs and also saves ranged characters from having disadvantage. That is a lot of extra damage and controlMy take away from all these discussions: everybody agrees that Dissonant Whispers is an awesome spell!

[Segev]

Grease is in an interesting position because it does three things, one of which is copied by and one of which is just a "better version" of a Xanathar's Guide cantrip.

It makes difficult terrain
It makes it in a 10 foot square
It forces dex saves for being in/entering it lest people become prone

In the name of "rulings, not rules," I'm going to assume that DMs can rationally adjudicate how flight interacts with this, and not get into arguments over whether a creature flying too close to the ground "entered the space."

The cantrip that is comparable is mold earth, which has as one of its functions rendering a patch of ground difficult terrain. This is only a 5 ft. patch. And you can have at most 2 of these with mold earth. Notably, you could have two patches AND as many grease spells as you care to cast. Up to 10 at once; grease lasts only 1 minute. (I doubt anybody is spending 10 spell slots in quick succession on grease.)

As low-level battlefield control, it's actually very good. Prone is a nasty condition for meleeists, and combining it with difficult terrain means they have to spend triple movement to get out of the area. I'm unclear whether they have to spend double movement to stand up from prone in difficult terrain; if so, it can cost all their movement to stand up.

The RAW in 5e specify that it "covers a patch of ground," which precludes uses like forcing people who are climbing to fall off of walls, but I could see a DM permitting that.

Unless and until flying enemies become particularly common, I'd rate this as A. It's not going to win every fight, but as battlefield control goes, it's solid. Especially for its slot. When and if flying enemies become common, I'd still say it's B-rated, because they will never be the only thing you face. (If you're in an aquatic campaign, it's pretty useless, but that's not a normal use-case and changes a lot of considerations.)

[RSP]

Great idea.

I guess moving on is one way to deal with being wrong, but next time I’d suggest not wasting so much time before doing so.

[MrStabby]

Grease is in an interesting position because it does three things, one of which is copied by and one of which is just a "better version" of a Xanathar's Guide cantrip.

It makes difficult terrain
It makes it in a 10 foot square
It forces dex saves for being in/entering it lest people become prone

In the name of "rulings, not rules," I'm going to assume that DMs can rationally adjudicate how flight interacts with this, and not get into arguments over whether a creature flying too close to the ground "entered the space."

The cantrip that is comparable is mold earth, which has as one of its functions rendering a patch of ground difficult terrain. This is only a 5 ft. patch. And you can have at most 2 of these with mold earth. Notably, you could have two patches AND as many grease spells as you care to cast. Up to 10 at once; grease lasts only 1 minute. (I doubt anybody is spending 10 spell slots in quick succession on grease.)

As low-level battlefield control, it's actually very good. Prone is a nasty condition for meleeists, and combining it with difficult terrain means they have to spend triple movement to get out of the area. I'm unclear whether they have to spend double movement to stand up from prone in difficult terrain; if so, it can cost all their movement to stand up.

The RAW in 5e specify that it "covers a patch of ground," which precludes uses like forcing people who are climbing to fall off of walls, but I could see a DM permitting that.

Unless and until flying enemies become particularly common, I'd rate this as A. It's not going to win every fight, but as battlefield control goes, it's solid. Especially for its slot. When and if flying enemies become common, I'd still say it's B-rated, because they will never be the only thing you face. (If you're in an aquatic campaign, it's pretty useless, but that's not a normal use-case and changes a lot of considerations.)

The trouble is that a lot of enemies can just jump over a lot of the areas you put grease into. I found it actually pretty tough to use well.

[Segev]

The trouble is that a lot of enemies can just jump over a lot of the areas you put grease into. I found it actually pretty tough to use well.

Hm. Good point. It's unclear how obvious the greased area is.

it's still area-denial, though, and you can use it to push people into. With a grappler, he could grab someone, drag them to it (standing on the edge, himself), and force them prone without having to spend another action, maybe.

But yeah, 10+ strength does mean you can just jump it.

But...area denial. They HAVE to jump it; they can't stop there.

So you cast it in front of your ranged fighters. Now they can't be approached from that direction for melee. Cast it under people, too; they still save vs. prone, and are stuck in a 10 ft. patch of difficult terrain.

[sithlordnergal]

The trouble is that a lot of enemies can just jump over a lot of the areas you put grease into. I found it actually pretty tough to use well.

I find its most useful in a doorway that you then stand in front of. Provided the doorway isn't 10 feet tall, which most doorways aren't, the enemy can't get through and have to go through the grease to get to you.

[LudicSavant]

They're arguing with you because you keep saying things like "healing potions aren't magic items" or "drinking a potion isn't activating a magic item."Please do not misrepresent what I have said.
I have represented your statements accurately.

Here's where you said that you don't need to activate a magic item to drink a potion:

You do not need to activate a potion of healing.
It works simply by drinking it.

And here's where you said that healing potions aren't magic items:

We see it as a mundane item. It's on the PHB equipment list for purchase.

Did you just conveniently forget that you said these things?

[Benny89]

Goodberries is S tier and imo best 1-st level spell. When you have Druid you have tons of between combat healing without using any slots. Not to mention if your DM cares about eating and drinking and supplies and encumberence - goodberries are even better.


For me S tier:

- Hex
- Goodberries
- Dissonant Whispers
- Shield
- Hideous Laughter
- Magic Missle/Jim's Magic Missile (on Nuclear Wizard build or any other Hex/Wizard build)
- Armor of Agathys
- Bless
- Healing Word
- Sanctuary
- Fearie Fire

Those are imo best 1st level spells that also scale good (or even great).

[Toofey]

This isn't our whole list, as a quick skim of the OP and thread will tell you. We're just here arguing the same thing as what you're saying, that there's a lot wrong with it. Of course, it's rather fruitless since there's no real change in the aforementioned OP, but since it's a forum topic we're offering our insight.

This whole Unseen Servant debate has long been decided as far as utility goes anyway. Now it's just an attempt to show someone that they are ignoring the rules about consumable magic items for no discernible reason.

So feel free to move to Grease and Sleep and whatever else you feel is inappropriately judged. By all means. You aren't interrupting.

I'm just using that rhetorical device, the post above about Grease gets most of it, but it misses the other element that it forces an immediate dex save to anyone in the square when it's cast. letting you prone someone on your action, not 'at the start of their turn' or what not, which can be critical for creating openings for melee fighters.

[Chronos]

Benny89, is there a reason you mark Hex as S-tier, but not Hunter's Mark? The biggest difference between them is just what classes get them, and in my experience, it's a lot more useful on a ranger than on a warlock (mostly because the ranger has less competition for it, both in spell slots and in concentration).

[RSP]

Benny89, is there a reason you mark Hex as S-tier, but not Hunter's Mark? The biggest difference between them is just what classes get them, and in my experience, it's a lot more useful on a ranger than on a warlock (mostly because the ranger has less competition for it, both in spell slots and in concentration).

Depends on play style: my Warlock runs Hex all day (thru level 12 so far) and uses other slots for ES or Synaptic Static, usually. Our party’s Ranger usually has HM up as well, but not always, due to it having less of a duration (and he hasn’t wanted to use 3rd level slots on it so far).

But the biggest difference between Hex and HM is that Hex works on any Attack, while HM only works on weapon attacks. This doesn’t horribly impact the Ranger, who is using weapon attacks 99% of the time, but does make it an inferior spell in just comparing the two.

Edit: not to speak for Benny, obviously, but just adding my opinion on the matter.

[stoutstien]

I think zephyr strike could safely be moved to A. With rangers limited spells known having one spell that does so many things at once makes it a very solid pick.

[Chaos Jackal]

The good thing with Hex is that, even if it's lost, it's often not a wasted slot. I've dropped my Hex in favor of Shadow of Moil, Fly, Hypnotic Pattern and others, and in most cases I already had a chance to regain the slot spent on Hex earlier. No harm done.

That being said, there's often plenty of reason to not cast it in the first place in favor of another concentration spell (unless you start your day by killing a pigeon and then short resting, which is both cheesy and not always viable), depending on the fight and where the day seems to be headed. There's a lot of stuff vying for concentration, even in regards to pure combat power. Darkness+Devil's Sight/Shadow of Moil are common strategies for a reason.

Also, and that's more of an edge case, but bonus points there if you're the only one with full spell progression, or are pairing another Charisma caster without ideal spell choices. In a game I've been playing as a straight-class warlock for a while (and a Hexblade, no less), the DM didn't allow anybody else to play as a full caster of whatever class, saying he wanted magic to be rare. As such, I'm basically forced to do the majority of battlefield control and utility casts required in the game. I even ended up dropping Hex completely for a few levels because of how often I ended up losing it to my own spells, thanks to the rest of my group acting very... inefficiently, to say the least, both in and out of combat, as well as the DM loving large enemy groups way too much. Hypnotic Pattern was probably my most common spell after Armor of Agathys...

But edge cases aside. Hex is an always useful effect, and it synergizes well with the automatic upcasting and short rest slot recovery. But it's not overwhelmingly powerful, and often won't run the course.

I'd call it a high A for sure. But probably not S.

Hunter's Mark is a similar case. There's no short rest recovery or automatic upcasting here, and the effect is similarly not game-breaking. But we're talking ranger spells here. There's no competition with Fly, or any sort of invisibility or darkness tactics, or Fear/Hypnotic Pattern, or Hold spells, or Banishment. A ranger has a surprisingly high number of concentration spells, but many of them overlap (attack riders, for example) or aren't worth it (Barkskin). They also learn fewer spells more slowly, meaning that they'll always have a smaller selection in the first place, and that selection will likely contain as few concentration spells as possible.

You know six spells by lv10. With so few options, you can likely afford two concentration spells. Three, tops. Else you won't ever have any flexibility. Hunter's Mark is a good choice for concentration, so it's worth picking up, and once it's picked it won't have a lot of things to contend with.

So I'd rate it a similar high-A-but-not-quite-S. Overall, through the pros and cons they both have, I find Hunter's Mark and Hex to be quite close. Wherever one might end up, I feel the other will end up as well.

[Zetakya]

Hex also has the "disadvantage on an ability check of your choice" rider, which gives it incredible utility in a lot of social situation that Hunter's Mark doesn't have.

Although I have seen Hunter's Mark's rider be used to covertly track and follow a suspicious character, it's a lot more situational.

[Aeriox]

If the class feature variants UA is allowed, hail of thorns gets a lot better. When it’s competing with hunters mark, it’s not good, but with a concentration less hunters mark it can add a decent bit of ranged damage.

[Torpin]

i think hex is underated here, especially once you get 3rd level spells due its long duration, wake up in the morning cast hex on a bug kill it, take short rest then whenever you want use your bonus action to move it to a new target, plus its per hit so its doing 2d6 a round when you are eldritch blasting or more as you level.

[Tanarii]

i think hex is underated here, especially once you get 3rd level spells due its long duration, wake up in the morning cast hex on a bug kill it, take short rest then whenever you want use your bonus action to move it to a new target, plus its per hit so its doing 2d6 a round when you are eldritch blasting or more as you level.
It's more thematic to have a crate of chickens and sacrifice one to your Patron every morning. Effectively in-game it can be treated as an hour long ritual. :smallamused:

[ad_hoc]

i think hex is underated here, especially once you get 3rd level spells due its long duration, wake up in the morning cast hex on a bug kill it, take short rest then whenever you want use your bonus action to move it to a new target, plus its per hit so its doing 2d6 a round when you are eldritch blasting or more as you level.

Even with those shenanigans which I'm not a fan of, it just doesn't compete well with 3rd level spells. Or even 2nd level spells for that matter.

I'd much rather cast an encounter defining spell at the start of combat than cast cantrips. Many of the Warlock's good spells are concentration.

People complain that Warlocks lack spell power and slots, but then they also use Hex.

It does get better in a very long encounter day if you can manage to keep your concentration up long enough. At 10+ encounters you're going to be using your cantrips a lot. I just don't think those days are that frequent.

[jas61292]

Even with those shenanigans which I'm not a fan of, it just doesn't compete well with 3rd level spells. Or even 2nd level spells for that matter.

I'd much rather cast an encounter defining spell at the start of combat than cast cantrips. Many of the Warlock's good spells are concentration.

People complain that Warlocks lack spell power and slots, but then they also use Hex.

Ain't this the truth. An extra 2d6 per round is nice. Especially if you go for a lot of rounds. An encounter effectively ended in one round, on the other hand, is much nicer. And Warlocks have plenty of good spells for that.

[Tanarii]

I'd much rather cast an encounter defining spell at the start of combat than cast cantrips. Many of the Warlock's good spells are concentration.

People complain that Warlocks lack spell power and slots, but then they also use Hex.
Assuming Hex will be used for:
Lvl 1: 6 / 6 combat rounds, e.g. two combats, per short rest
Lvl 2-10: 5 / 6 combat rounds, e.g. two combats, per short rest (plus one encounter defining spell with the other slot on 1 round)

That means the encounter defining spell needs to be the equivalent of 5-6d6 in Tier 1 and 10d6 in Tier 2. Roughly.

[Chaos Jackal]

Something like Hypnotic Pattern or Fear (which I mentioned in my previous post) is the kind of encounter-ending ability you wanna get out of a 3rd-level slot. Not all kinds of fights call for that kind of spell though. Not all warlock builds call for that. And not all party compositions will require that.

And again, Hex has excellent synergy with the warlock's slot recovery and scaling style. Even without the cheese of casting Hex on some random critter (which me and another mentioned earlier), it's still not unlikely that a chance to use Hex and keep it up for later is gonna come up. And the ability disadvantage can be a good debuff with proper synergies.

Hunter's Mark, on the other hand, will have far less competition, but also much shorter duration, and the tracking debuff is even more situational than Hex's disadvantage, in addition to the ranger not recovering slots on a short rest.

Both are an all-around useful bonus damage rider that can really ramp up, particularly if it lasts through multiple combats (which is the idea), plus some situational debuffs. Raw damage isn't exactly the best thing a spell can do, but throughout a combat or three these spells can make for extremely efficient usage of their slot. They are by no means overpowered or the only option, but they are always an option, and at least a decent option at that. They just fit with any build or purpose. They might not necessarily be the best cast every time, but they're rarely a bad choice either.

I stand by what I said. These spells are similar in power, considering their respective classes. Not the be-all, end-all of said classes, but worth picking and using at any level, nonetheless. They both warrant an A.

[ad_hoc]

Assuming Hex will be used for:
Lvl 1: 6 / 6 combat rounds, e.g. two combats, per short rest
Lvl 2-10: 5 / 6 combat rounds, e.g. two combats, per short rest (plus one encounter defining spell with the other slot on 1 round)

That means the encounter defining spell needs to be the equivalent of 5-6d6 in Tier 1 and 10d6 in Tier 2. Roughly.

How do you quantify that?

Hunger of Hadar doesn't just do damage.

It also has a big effect at the beginning of combat which is much better than doing that damage over time. Having the extra damage to finish off the last of your foes before your buddy does it is not as effective as killing/disabling your foes straight away.

Hex might also only last a round. It's a gamble how long it will last for.

Hex isn't a bad spell I just don't think it's as good as many people think it is.



I stand by what I said. These spells are similar in power, considering their respective classes. Not the be-all, end-all of said classes, but worth picking and using at any level, nonetheless. They both warrant an A.

B Tier is not 'don't pick this spell'.

B Tier is 'this is a solid pick'.

Even C Tier is not that, it is 'pick this but with caution'.

[RSP]

Hunger of Hadar doesn't just do damage.

Neither does Hex. And HoH isn’t a 1st level spell.



Hex might also only last a round. It's a gamble how long it will last for.

Ah, I forgot HoH, HP, Fear, SoM, Darkness, aren’t subject to that very same mechanic...



Hex isn't a bad spell I just don't think it's as good as many people think it is.

Try playing a Warlock; you might change your mind.


Even with those shenanigans which I'm not a fan of, it just doesn't compete well with 3rd level spells. Or even 2nd level spells for that matter.

So I guess we’re not judging it as a 1st level spell anymore. It should also be noted that the fact you’re constantly comparing it to 3rd level spells, means it’s a great 1st level spell.



I'd much rather cast an encounter defining spell at the start of combat than cast cantrips. Many of the Warlock's good spells are concentration.

What are your “encounter defining” spells? Also, does your DM just constantly have encounters that are mobs in a 30’ cube?



People complain that Warlocks lack spell power and slots, but then they also use Hex.

Hex is a great spell that scales very well. I use it all the time on my Warlock. I don’t complain about spell power or slots.



It does get better in a very long encounter day if you can manage to keep your concentration up long enough. At 10+ encounters you're going to be using your cantrips a lot. I just don't think those days are that frequent.

It works on any Attack, not just cantrips. What are you doing in all the rounds after your “combat defining” spells? Casting cantrips? Attacking with a weapon?

I’m still curious about the spells you cast in lieu of Hex on your Warlock, from my previous posts, but I’m also assuming that’s not a question that can be answered.

[Tanarii]

How do you quantify that?I don't. I'm just setting a baseline for the spell for comparison. I mea, you can compare to a fireball pretty easily: if two targets don't save, or 4 do, you've exceeded a Hex that lasted for 2 combats of 3 rounds each.


Hex might also only last a round. It's a gamble how long it will last for.Especially true if you're in a single class no feat campaign (so no Resilient Con or Warcaster) and your DM believes if you want a line of combat you need to earn it tactically.


Hex isn't a bad spell I just don't think it's as good as many people think it is.I think it compares favorably, but absolutely it's no where near as good as, nor IMx used at actual tables (even AL) as much as, DPS number crunchers using it (and Agonizing Blast) as a constant point of comparison would have us all believe.

[MaxWilson]

I think it compares favorably, but absolutely it's no where near as good as, nor IMx used at actual tables (even AL) as much as, DPS number crunchers using it (and Agonizing Blast) as a constant point of comparison would have us all believe.

I'm on board with this perspective. I see Hex often learned, rarely cast. It's at its best in medium-difficulty fights against a small number of tough opponents, especially if you have a grappler in the party. (Not necessarily a specialized grappler, just someone with Extra Attack, Strength 16ish, and Athletics proficiency.) In actual tough fights against large numbers of creatures it's better to concentration on something like Confusion or Hypnotic Pattern instead while pew-pewing away with regular (Agonizing Repelling?) Eldritch Blast instead. In a tough fight against a single creature typically you'd want mobility (like Expeditious Retreat) or some kind of protection spell instead of Hex.

It's still a nice option to have though.

[RSP]

I'm on board with this perspective. I see Hex often learned, rarely cast. It's at its best in medium-difficulty fights against a small number of tough opponents, especially if you have a grappler in the party. (Not necessarily a specialized grappler, just someone with Extra Attack, Strength 16ish, and Athletics proficiency.) In actual tough fights against large numbers of creatures it's better to concentration on something like Confusion or Hypnotic Pattern instead while pew-pewing away with regular (Agonizing Repelling?) Eldritch Blast instead. In a tough fight against a single creature typically you'd want mobility (like Expeditious Retreat) or some kind of protection spell instead of Hex.

It's still a nice option to have though.

Part of the beauty of Hex, though, is that it’s always relevant. If doing any sort of dungeon crawl, cast it during the first combat, and you should have it for awhile, possibly through a SR.

It certainly benefits from Warcaster or Resilient (Con). Again, that’s the issue with this type of list, it doesn’t account for different builds (or even classes).

In my experience with Warlocks (as DM, player of Warlocks, and playing with other Warlock PCs), you don’t usually have HP and Fear, though both are great spells, just due to the number of spells known. Generally, gish Warlocks have fear, others have HP.

But not every combat is set up for HP to be worthwhile (in fact the vast majority aren’t), unless your DM just doesn’t like presenting a challenge to your group. So if you’re not casting anything, while waiting for HP to be a worthwhile action, and you get a SR before using your slots, you’ve wasted those slots and Hex was the better option, hands down.

Also, not every character needs to have HP. If in a group with a Wizard, for instance, it might be the better option to let them handle HP (when called for), as they don’t have the option of 1d10+1d6+mod at-will damage; but they do have the option of a variety of different spells and spell slots to adjust to different situations.

Hex and HP do different things, but both are great spells that are useful in different situations. Hex just happens to always be useful, while HP is more useful but only when used in a smaller sample of situations.

For the record, HP isn’t “an encounter ender” even when in the right situation. I’ve seen it where 4 out of 6 enemies are affected, and those 2 who aren’t use their first action to “shake” two other, who then use their action (since they’re turn started after the two unaffected) to “shake” the last two, who then get to act normal. Still useful to have traded 1 Action for 4 enemy Actions, but not an encounter ender.

Personally, I’ve always preferred Fear to HP, though I also always play front-liners who benefit from the cone more than the cube AoE. I do think it’s a better effect though, and much more debilitating to enemies, particularly those that use weapons. Fear, in my opinion, is the best 3rd level control spell, but again, still has limitation of the situation being right.

[Swosh]

Command is far underrated here. It is better than Dissonant Whispers most of the time, both in and out of combat. A quick comparison:




Dissonant Whispers
Command


3d6 dmg
0 dmg


Upcast for more dmg
Upcast for multiple targets


Uses targets reaction
Uses up targets next turn


Target flees
Target can flee, fall, drop, approach, etc



In combat, both spells gives attacks of opportunity. However the fact that Command deprives a creature of their action and you can even upcast it to remove multiple creatures actions, is usually far superior than removing a single creatures reaction and dealing some extra damage.

Out of combat in social situations there is no contest at all. Command wins by a mile.
Win a singing contest by using "shierk".
Humiliate people in a high society party with "urinate".
Make someone "sign" an unfair contract.
The possibilities is pretty much restricted only by your creativity and the DM.

[ad_hoc]

Command is far underrated here. It is better than Dissonant Whispers most of the time, both in and out of combat. A quick comparison:




Dissonant Whispers
Command


3d6 dmg
0 dmg


Upcast for more dmg
Upcast for multiple targets


Uses targets reaction
Uses up targets next turn


Target flees
Target can flee, fall, drop, approach, etc



In combat, both spells gives attacks of opportunity. However the fact that Command deprives a creature of their action and you can even upcast it to remove multiple creatures actions, is usually far superior than removing a single creatures reaction and dealing some extra damage.


The question is: Should I take this spell?

As a damage spell Dissonant Whispers is just the best 1st level spell of that type.

As a control spell Command is not as good as other control spells. It's a good spell. It doesn't use Concentration which is great.

Dissonant Whispers gets the enemy away from the PCs right now. That means ranged attackers can attack without disadvantage. That means no OAs. Dissonant Whispers always does damage too even if the opponent saves. That's worth something.

We could write this list by just saying all damage spells are bad. But I don't think that correctly answers the question when a player asks whether they will be happy with the spell.

I think the better comparison is with Tasha's Hideous Laughter. I had that spell as a B at first. It's good at what it does. So is Command. They each have their advantages. The problem here is, if all good spells are put in the 'great' column then there are no 'average' spells which doesn't make sense.




Out of combat in social situations there is no contest at all. Command wins by a mile.
Win a singing contest by using "shierk".
Humiliate people in a high society party with "urinate".
Make someone "sign" an unfair contract.
The possibilities is pretty much restricted only by your creativity and the DM.

It's no longer a social situation then is it? Most of the time this means either combat or the people fleeing in terror.

I would actually much rather have Dissonant Whispers here as everyone else is going to be confused about what just happened to your victim. Not so with Command.

[Swosh]

The question is: Should I take this spell?

As a damage spell Dissonant Whispers is just the best 1st level spell of that type.

As a control spell Command is not as good as other control spells. It's a good spell. It doesn't use Concentration which is great.

Dissonant Whispers gets the enemy away from the PCs right now. That means ranged attackers can attack without disadvantage. That means no OAs. Dissonant Whispers always does damage too even if the opponent saves. That's worth something.

We could write this list by just saying all damage spells are bad. But I don't think that correctly answers the question when a player asks whether they will be happy with the spell.

I think the better comparison is with Tasha's Hideous Laughter. I had that spell as a B at first. It's good at what it does. So is Command. They each have their advantages. The problem here is, if all good spells are put in the 'great' column then there are no 'average' spells which doesn't make sense.


I dont agree with you on the comparison to Tasha's i think its as close to Dissonant Whispers as you can get, with added bennefits. However if you insist on comparing it to Tashas:

- Tashas requires concentration, the creature "cant take damage", single target only, potentially last several rounds.

- Command is non concentration, you can damage the creature, they take opportunity attacks from everyone around the creature, can target multiple creatures with upcasting, lasts 1 round.

Tbh i dont see why i would ever take Tasha's over Command except at parhaps level 1-2? where you have so few spell slots that concentration dosnt matter at all. But
then again Sleep would be the best spell of all and you rated that D.

[Reynaerde]

Command is far underrated here. It is better than Dissonant Whispers most of the time, both in and out of combat. A quick comparison:




Dissonant Whispers
Command


3d6 dmg
0 dmg


Upcast for more dmg
Upcast for multiple targets


Uses targets reaction
Uses up targets next turn


Target flees
Target can flee, fall, drop, approach, etc

Thanks for that comparison, it made me appreciate Command a lot more than I did. Outside of combat there is obviously no contest between the two. In combat, the versatility of Command and the fact that it forces the opponent to lose a round is obviously great*, but I still think that Dissonant Whispers is the better spell in such a context, though.

First of all, unlike Command, Dissonant Whispers is not save-or-suck, always dealing at least some damage.

Secondly, I'd rather get the opportunity attacks now, having full control over positioning, then later, giving enemies a chance to mess that positioning up or even dispell the spell.

Thirdly, Dissonant Whispers is only prevented by being deafened, while Command doesn't work if the target is undead, doesn't understand your language or if the command is directly harmful (certain DMs might even use this last clause to say the target won't flee if it knows it would trigger opportunity attacks, although I would personally disagree with that sort of reading of the rules).

*I haven't taken the upcast versions of the spell into consideration, as the exercise here was comparing first level spells.

[Reynaerde]

I would actually much rather have Dissonant Whispers here as everyone else is going to be confused about what just happened to your victim. Not so with Command.In both cases it will probably be apparent that the source of the strange thing happening is the person obviously reciting magic phrases for several seconds, hahaha...

[MrStabby]

Thanks for that comparison, it made me appreciate Command a lot more than I did. Outside of combat there is obviously no contest between the two. In combat the versatility of Command and the opponent losing a round is obviously great*, but I still think that Dissonant Whispers is the better spell in such a context, though.

First of all, unlike Command, Dissonant Whispers it's not save-or-suck, always dealing at least some damage.

Secondly, I'd rather get the opportunity attacks now, having full control over positioning, then later, giving enemies a chance to mess that positioning up or even dispell the spell.

Thirdly, Dissonant Whispers is only prevented by being deafened, while Command doesn't work if the target is undead, doesn't understand your language or if the command is directly harmful (certain DMs might even use this last clause to say it won't flee if it know it would trigger opportunity attacks, although I would disagree).

*I haven't taken the upcast versions of the spell into consideration, as the exercise here was comparing first level spells.

But this is why I specifically mentioned the relevance of the class chassis for command. It comes as a cleric spell who from second level get turn undead. Restrictions like that matter a lot less when you have access to even better tools.

Again, as I noted, I think that running is a lot better on their own turn. Firstly you get to move some of your own team into position (and I refer you to my comments about using with summoned and animated creatures as a bonus of not needing concentration, although command let's others summon as a response). More importantly command takes melee enemies out of action for an extra turn, one action used to run away and one to run back. A reaction is not the same value and they can close back to the same position in one turn. It just isnt as good, even notwithstanding the extra versatility.

[KorvinStarmast]

Personally, I’ve always preferred Fear to HP, In my (somewhat limited) Warlock play, I found fear to be very effective. HP has some great effects, but fear's ability to shape the battlefield is (well, our group has seen this) suprisingly useful. (Kind of the way that turn undead can dramatically change a battle).

Back to first level spells.

As a control spell Command is not as good as other control spells. It's a good spell. It doesn't use Concentration which is great. It sure has its moments.

The spell has no effect if the target is undead, if it doesn’t understand your language, or if your command is directly harmful to it. It doesn't work on undead and the language barrier feature makes it a bit tricky depending on how important language is in your campaign. IMO, command is a better pick for someone who is a divine caster (Paladin, Cleric) or is a wizard, but less great if one is a Sorcerer, for example. With limited spell slots, Command might not make the cut.

Tasha's Hideous Laughter. I had that spell as a B at first. It's good at what it does. We have found it remarkably effective when it works. (i.e. when the save isn't made). I think your B might undersell it, but not gonna quibble. Example: last month, as a dragon disengaged from our Barbarian and began to fly off (arrgh!) our AT cast Tasha's ... and it failed its save. That allowed the rest of us to get to it and end it before it could fly away.

The only PC's I've seen in 5 years with Dissonant Whispers were Lord Bards (first campaign, began in 2014) and our ToA compaign (began in 2018ish IIRC), also a Lore Bard. It got a lot of use. Our current beginner campaign's bard has yet to "go final" on his spells - he has only used his cantrip and his inspiration and healing word at first level, but if he asks me I will recommend that spell once he has to make a decision on the level up that just happened.

None of the Magic Initiate feat taking players I've seen took DW. Not sure how that reflects your list.

[Reynaerde]

But this is why I specifically mentioned the relevance of the class chassis for command. It comes as a cleric spell who from second level get turn undead. Restrictions like that matter a lot less when you have access to even better tools. You obviously have a good point here, taking class chassis into consideration, but this makes disonant whispers better as well, given how hard it is for (low level) bards to get some decent damage in.


Again, as I noted, I think that running is a lot better on their own turn.This is probably a difference in experience. I've often seen delayed plans like these thwarted by enemy interference. By the time the commanded target is up, you've been pushed away from it by one of its allies and your animated objects are gone because you didn't make the concentration check from the damage you got. But yeah, I can also see that working in your benefit at times.

Obviously, both are awesome spells and very much worth taking for their respective classes. I might have to consider whether there is a fun cleric version of my dissonant whisperer bard build. They could take magic initiate to get booming blade?



Our current beginner campaign's bard has yet to "go final" on his spells - he has only used his cantrip and his inspiration and healing word at first level, but if he asks me I will recommend that spell once he has to make a decision on the level up that just happened.Does your party include a rogue? Because giving that rogue an extra sneak attack through the DW opportunity attack will be a great way to teach beginning players something about party synergy.


None of the Magic Initiate feat taking players I've seen took DW. Not sure how that reflects your list.Warlock and Sorcerer don't really benefit from another 1st level spell once/day and most of the other classes don't have the charisma to make it work. Paladins might have high enough charisma, but already get command, rogues might have high enough charisma, but benefit more from somebody else casting DW. Bard doesn't really have any powerful cantrips either.

Of the four S-tier spells, DW is the most stat dependent, which I think would be a good reason to take it down to A tier (even if it is my favorite spell in the game, hahaha). I also think Command should be moved to tier A as well.

[KorvinStarmast]

Does your party include a rogue? Nope. There are seven players, about 5 of whom can show up on a given day.

Sorcerer/Draconic
Paladin (probably going devotion)
Bard (he's not sure if he's going Lore or something else)
Barbarian (Guessing Ancestral Guardian, but might go bear)
Cleric/Monk MC human. (Home brew Water Domain)
Fighter/Dwarf
Monk/Wood Elf

Most of them can give a nice whack at whomever runs off. You just got me thinking.
If our Fighter takes the Sentinel feat, does he stop the Whispered Enemy dead in their tracks when it runs off and he hits it with an OA?

[MrStabby]

Obviously, both are awesome spells and very much worth taking for their respective classes. I might have to consider whether there is a fun cleric version of my dissonant whisperer bard build. They could take magic initiate to get booming blade?


My preference is for order cleric, so you can booming blade, command then on their turn booming blade again.

[Reynaerde]

Most of them can give a nice whack at whomever runs off. You just got me thinking.
If our Fighter takes the Sentinel feat, does he stop the Whispered Enemy dead in their tracks when it runs off and he hits it with an OA?With that many players, there is bound to be someone close enough to get an opportunity attack, if not several. And yes, sentinel triggers on a DW induced opportunity attack as well!


My preference is for order cleric, so you can booming blade, command then on their turn booming blade again.That's a very nice combo indeed!

[ad_hoc]

In both cases it will probably be apparent that the source of the strange thing happening is the person obviously reciting magic phrases for several seconds, hahaha...

It depends on how we interpret the spell.

For the vast majority of spells I assume a vocal component is loud and clear.

Dissonant Whispers though describes the character as whispering and there is only the vocal component so it would be reasonable to say that it is fairly subtle.

Command also doesn't stop the target from doing anything else including explaining to those around them that they are under magical compulsion.

Since the list is about answering the question 'should I take this spell?' I think we need to take into account which classes have the choice. For me I am always taking Healing Word and Dissonant Whispers on a Bard. Those 2 are locked in which makes them S Tier to me. I am always taking Shield on a Wizard. The only time I wouldn't take Find Familiar is if I feel it really doesn't suit the character. If the question is 'should I take this' though then presumably the player feels like a familiar would be cool to have and then the answering is absolutely yes.

I originally had Feather Fall in S Tier as well because I want all of my characters to have it. Just having it on my list allows for so much freedom. It doesn't just save a character from falling from a height during battle but it is also a great way to traverse dungeons. Many dungeons have open areas of different heights. There are also plenty of towers and castles in the game. It can be a great way to get a stealthy drop on an enemy too.

The funny thing about a Tier ranking like this is that they are pretty broad. I'm not going to bother with +/- delineations so some spells might be at the top of the tier while others are at the bottom of the same tier.

So ultimately the question is - Is Command a spell I'm going to prioritize taking over many other great spells? It's pretty close but I feel like there are already a lot of A Tier spells. What can we take out of A Tier to make room for it? (We can't have every spell be a high recommendation to take...)

[KorvinStarmast]

Is Command a spell I'm going to prioritize taking over many other great spells? It's pretty close but I feel like there are already a lot of A Tier spells. What can we take out of A Tier to make room for it? (We can't have every spell be a high recommendation to take...) If I am a divine caster who can, when needed, prepare that spell when I want to, yes, I'll prepare it more often than not.

If I am a spell caster who has a smaller total list, is this level 1 spell always making the cut?
No.

[Reynaerde]

It depends on how we interpret the spell.

For the vast majority of spells I assume a vocal component is loud and clear.

Dissonant Whispers though describes the character as whispering and there is only the vocal component so it would be reasonable to say that it is fairly subtle.According to the official sage advice compendium (the one hosted on the wotc website), the verbal component is separate from the verbal effect described in the spell (in this case the whispering). Since we know verbal components are "the chanting of mystic words" and that, according to (regular) sage advice these must be audible, it all depends on how your DM treats audibility.

I agree, though, that DW is an S-tier spell for Bards. It's at the core of my favorite bard build. In the grander scheme of things I would consider it A-tier, since I'm not sure I would use it much on a GOOlock or an Aberrant Mind Sorcercer. Nor does it seem a good pick for magic initiate, like the other S-tier spells.

Edit: Changed my mind on the aberrant mind sorcerer: twinned dissonant whispers is cheap and awesome!

[MrStabby]

If I am a divine caster who can, when needed, prepare that spell when I want to, yes, I'll prepare it more often than not.

If I am a spell caster who has a smaller total list, is this level 1 spell always making the cut?
No.

So for me I can post 2 data points:

1) I had a lore bard and opted not to take command as a magical secret. I had dissonant whispers and whilst command was an improvement it didn't seem better than counterspell.

2) I have a divine soul sorcerer who snapped this up as a level one spell and never looked back.

So, maybe not of a tier where I would always take it, no matter the cost and irrespective of any other spells I already had access to... but good enough that out of a damn wide field of spells and with a restricted pool I thought it well worth grabbing.

[Swosh]

First of all, unlike Command, Dissonant Whispers is not save-or-suck, always dealing at least some damage.
Well i would say that depends what level you are. If the creature makes their save they take half of 3d6 damage which is 5.25 damage on average. If you are level 1-2 then sure it is "okay" damage, but as you go up in level that damage is quite negligible so i would say Dissonant Whispers also turns into a save-or-suck spell.



*I haven't taken the upcast versions of the spell into consideration, as the exercise here was comparing first level spells.
If you do concider the upcasting which i think is weird not to be at least considered as in normal games you always look at the hole spell, including upcasting. Command is a monster, and is no longer a save-or-suck as you can targets many creatures.


Secondly, I'd rather get the opportunity attacks now, having full control over positioning, then later, giving enemies a chance to mess that positioning up or even dispell the spell.
This goes both ways, it also gives your party an opportunity to get into position to get opportunity attacks and casting Booming Blade on the target which they otherwise wouldnt have gotten. And robbing the Big Bad Guy of their multiattack action is obviously going to be far more significant than him losing his reaction, which in most cases he didnt have anything useful anyways. As noted by MrShabby it can also technically make the creature lose two turns, not just one as they have to first "Dash" away, (The target spends its turn moving away from you by the fastest available means) and therefore have to spend their subsequent turn Dashing back in order to be able to make their attack on their 3rd turn. In comparison, Dissonant Whispers dosnt do any of that they don't even lose a single action.


In combat, the versatility of Command
Yes, the versitility is just insane. Take a level 5 Cleric for example with Spirit Guardians. Command "Approach" will make them run towards you and take an extra 3d8 damage for entering Spirit Guardians. "Grovel" will make everyone get advantage and make them unable to exit the Spirit Guardians. All this + they lose their action. Talking about taking candy from a baby.


Command doesn't work if the target is undead, doesn't understand your language
Yes, this is really the only downside with Command, however, in most campaigns it isn't often that this will happen and you can negate it to a degree by knowing more languages from your background/racial (Make sure to pick languages for creatures that dosnt understand common). And as MrShubby mentioned when you meet undead you are usually a Cleric or Paladin anyways and have other options.


So ultimately the question is - Is Command a spell I'm going to prioritize taking over many other great spells? It's pretty close but I feel like there are already a lot of A Tier spells. What can we take out of A Tier to make room for it?

From those you have in A tier, Burning Hands easily. Thunderwave has a better range, area of effect, secondary effect, better damage type, and does about the same damage. Burning Hands isnt a good spell.

I also think you should define some parameters, like is this class dependant spells or just pure power based (like spells you would pick from a magic initiate feat)? Personally i only see three spells as top tier (S-tier) i would concider picking from magic initiate (If i had learned the spell and could cast it with my own spell slots). Find Familiar, Shield and Absorb Elements. Those spells would save your life over and over again and is invaluable. If going by class dependant spells however then since many classes dont have access to any of those spells, like for example the Bard or the Cleric, then yeah Dissonant Whispers, Command would be top tier.