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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next The Spider: An Alternate Mastermind



aimlessPolymath
2020-04-02, 07:55 PM
First 5e homebrew. Looking for feedback- I was trying to make a somewhat more active version of the Mastermind that rewards scheming and planning ahead, primarily inspired by this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?221950-quot-Believe-me-you-don-t-want-him-inside-your-head-quot-3-5-Base-Class-PEACH).

It leans somewhat hard on Suggestion to function, which is something I'm not fully sure how to solve.


Rogue Archetype: Spider

3: Criminal Contacts
You can spend an hour in a settlement in introductions, handshakes, and minor bribes to learn of the major criminal groups present (if any), ways to contact them, their territories, and their specialties.

After you have done so, you can hire a trustworthy hireling at the normal price (2 gp/day) on an hour’s notice. The hireling will have a +5 bonus to up to three rogue skills of your choice, plus thieves’ tools, but will not risk its life for you or engage in combat. You can initially only hire one such hireling at a time; you may hire one more at 9th level, and three more (to a total of five) at 13th level.

3: Cryptic Commands:
You can direct others to your whims. To do so, you take a bonus action to give a verbal command describing a task to one other creature other than yourself within 60 ft of you who can hear you. That creature gains one Command die, a d6.

Once within the next week or until you retract the order (a free action), the creature can roll the die and add the number rolled to one ability check, attack roll, or saving throw it makes that is related to towards completing the task. The creature can wait until after it rolls The D20 before deciding to use the die, but must decide before the DM says whether the roll succeeds or fails. Once the Command die is rolled, it is lost. A creature can have only one Command die at a time.

You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (a minimum of once). Once an order is used or retracted, you will regain that use during your next long rest.

The die size changes as you gain levels. It becomes a d8 at 9th level and a d10 at 17th level.

9. Subversive Manipulator:
Once per long rest, you can embed secret instructions into a creature during the course of an apparently inoccuous minute-long conversation. This has the effect of a Suggestion spell, except that if they fail their save, you can delay the effect of the spell up to a week, describing a circumstance under which the spell activates and affects them. On a failed save, they are not aware that the instruction has been implanted until they take effect. For this purpose, your spell DC is Charisma-based.

The triggering circumstance can be as general or as detailed as you like, though it must be based on conditions that the target can perceive. For example, you could instruct them to act when they hear a particular phrase, or when they see a particular person.

13: Behind the Scenes
When you roll initiative, you gain the benefit of a Sanctuary spell. For this purpose, your spell DC is Charisma-based. As long as this effect lasts, you can Hide without requiring cover by making a Deception check instead of a Stealth check.

17: Master Manipulator
You can now use Subversive Manipulator up to three times per long rest, on the same or different target. At your option, you may cause the target to forget that they spoke to you, and/or forget what they did while under the effect of Suggestion.

Segev
2020-04-02, 10:01 PM
I like the flavor, though both Cryptic Commands and Subversive Manipulator feel a bit underpowered.

Used less flavorfully, Cryptic Commands is a d6 you give to an ally on a task. It's not bad, that way; probably a little below a Bard's Inspiration, but that's okay for a Rogue subclass. But it doesn't really incentivize catspaws to do your bidding, and is such a minor bonus to a single roll that it is unlikely to have a major impact on their success even if they do comply. I'm not really sure how to... "fix" it, though.

Subversive Manipulator is mimicking a spell that can be obtained by a more versatile means 6 levels sooner, and it can use it less frequently. The week long delay is nice, mimicking the longer duration of a 7th-level casting of mass suggestion, but it also is still only one target, and not even once per day. Rather, once per up-to-a-week.

I suggest it be more like this:

"Spending a minute or more discussing seemingly-innocuous matters with people, you prepare them for [more fluff text]. Within an hour of setting them up, you may pick up to 12 of them who can hear you and cast mass suggestion on them. You can do this once. After a long rest, you can prepare others for further instructions. Nobody can have more than one subversive command active on them at a time, though you can replace commands already in place with new ones by this method."

This is several levels early for mass suggestion, and 7th levle spells are 1/day for most casters, so I think this is about right.

aimlessPolymath
2020-04-03, 01:12 AM
Cryptic Commands: In terms of incentivizing action, it's an ability meant to ensure that your minions can succeed in carrying out your bidding, rather than a way to cause them to follow it, as well as enforcing a particular dynamic between the rogue and the other characters- it was somewhat inspired by a similar feature in Dungeon World where players can ask a wizard for advice to take +1 when acting on the results.

I'd expect rogues to be able to find a way to motivate others to do what they want- even if that represents an out-of-game agreement between players of "okay, your character orders my character to break down this door, then I do it". The Criminal Contacts ability is also meant to provide a target for this, and I've been considering increasing the number of minions you can command at once as the player levels, or providing some kind of abstract currency of threats/bribes that the player would spend on influencing others.

Subversive Manipulator: I'll push back a bit on this one, because I feel that comparing a single subclass ability to a full spellcasting class feels a bit much; comparable subclass features for this level are "can establish false identities (Assassin)" and "advantage on one or two skills(Inquisitive, Thief)".
I can see cutting the "one-at-a-time" limit, letting you set up multiple pawns over the course of a few days.

Segev
2020-04-03, 01:32 AM
One per day is probably good enough.

Comparing to spell casting classes is absolutely fair. They do not have some special right to cool tricks that other classes do not. If anything, classes that are not spellcasters should have their narrower, less versatile powers be stronger than equivalent spells.

aimlessPolymath
2020-04-03, 02:01 AM
Hmm. Expanding the number of targets still feels like too much for a 9th level subclass feature (and somewhat against my intent for the feature overall, which is to set up sleeper agents towards a particular goal or to infiltrate by proxy rather than turning an entire guard squad to your side), but I could see buffing it up by enhancing the stealth aspect of it- perhaps pulling some version of the forgetfulness from 17th level, and finding something else to replace the 17th level feature with, by broadening the definition of "reasonable action" (which I admit is DM-dependent) or making the attempt difficult to notice even on a successful save.

Segev
2020-04-03, 10:58 AM
Hmm. Expanding the number of targets still feels like too much for a 9th level subclass feature (and somewhat against my intent for the feature overall, which is to set up sleeper agents towards a particular goal or to infiltrate by proxy rather than turning an entire guard squad to your side), but I could see buffing it up by enhancing the stealth aspect of it- perhaps pulling some version of the forgetfulness from 17th level, and finding something else to replace the 17th level feature with, by broadening the definition of "reasonable action" (which I admit is DM-dependent) or making the attempt difficult to notice even on a successful save.

I understand not wanting to go full mass suggestion, but when you say "expanding the number of targets," do you mean you also don't like the idea of 1/day with no limit to how many you can have active (beyond the obvious "seven" imposed by the week time-limit)?

It's several levels before mass suggestion would come on line, certainly before it would be able to last for a week, so limiting it to one per use is probably wise (despite my earlier suggestion). I jsut think you need more than one at a time, or you don't really have "sleeper agents" so much as a discount Thrall. (Which is arguably better than the real Thrall a GoOlock gets, but that's a different discussion.)

aimlessPolymath
2020-04-03, 12:24 PM
I'm against going full Mass Suggestion, but I already cut the sentence that ends the contingent suggestion when you set up a new one.

Segev
2020-04-03, 12:54 PM
I'm against going full Mass Suggestion, but I already cut the sentence that ends the contingent suggestion when you set up a new one.

Seems reasonable. :)