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SangoProduction
2020-04-03, 05:41 AM
Shifter is a class that's focused around the Alteration sphere. So, let's go ahead and check out the abilities, and rank them in usefulness and power, as well as point out the best alteration sphere talents you could use.
Ranking System:

(S) Super: You always want this. It's awesome.
(G) Good: You would certainly not complain about having this, especially in the right builds / situations.
(B) Bad: While perhaps better than nothing, you are giving up something for it, so probably shouldn't without a good reason.
(N) No.

Class Abilities
Shapeshifter (G): It makes you have full casting on Alteration sphere, and essentially allocates the level 1 magic talent you would have gotten as a full caster. You still don't have as many magic talents later on, but oh well.
Wild Empathy (B): You aren't giving anything up for it (if you are taking the class anyway). So congratulations. You might even occasionally find use for it.
Quick Transformation (S): Action economy. Of course, alteration sphere is a minutes-long buff. But maybe you got dipped in lava and need to transform or something. It's decent for use with Lingering Transformation.

Bestial Trait (B-S): See below. Every 2 levels, you get one.
Endurance (N): As the feat. The one literally no one takes. Don't stop on level 3.
Lingering Transformation (G-S): At the level you take it, it's the equivalent of the Lingering Transformation talent, but it stacks...and doesn't increase the duration when you actually spend spell points on maintaining it. The lingering free duration scales though. This also makes up for the lost talent at level 4, if you would have picked up Lingering Transformation anyway.

Enhanced Attacks (B): Well, it simplifies the need for enhancing your attacks. But you get it in conjunction with a bestial talent and lingering transformation, so no need to be scared away.
Steal Language (N-G): Depends on game, but this can occasionally be useful. Or even kinda fun. It definitely requires a special DM for this to be of use though.
Enhanced Physicality (S): Inherent bonus to the most universal attribute in the game? On the filler level between Bestial Traits? Sign me up.

Immunity to Poison(N): Well, at least it's made more explicit than simply you being high level, with good fort save, as an Alteration sphere (con-based) specialist.
Extended Transformation (S): Here's the second part of the Lingering Transformation talent. But again it stacks. And this time, it turns your minutes-long buff in to an hours-long one if you do so. Of course by this point you already have 9 levels of spell points, 90 minutes per extended transformation, and your lingering transformations last 6 rounds per move action. So is it really all that much of an improvement? Yes.

Boundless / Endless Communication (N---): Why though? You already have steal language, and that's niche enough as it is. 3 abilities devoted to the same thing, with only marginal improvements on them.
Immunity to Disease (N): OK. Again. Kinda like immunity to poison, but even less relevant. But you can get in to the...barroom business and not even worry about any divine codes you must follow.
Greater Transformation (N): At the same level that you don't gain a magic talent, you gain the bonus that is granted by having a magic talent. So you can retrain Lingering Transformation and it's like you had a dead level. Congratulations.

Second Skin (G): Shapeshifts are now free, nonmagical, and have no duration. The problem is that save for the bestial traits, and Enhanced physicality, there's a whole bunch of nothing for the 11 levels between this and your last good class ability.



Pounce (S+): Yup. You know it.
Melded Equipment (S+): OK, call me crazy but just barfing up a fireball while transformed in to a cat, just because you have a melded wand of fireballs is hilarious to me. It is also really nice for actually useful magic items which can no longer be removed from you.

Accommodating Form (N-S): +1 trait from a given talent, when you shapeshift, ignoring trait limits. Its value is entirely dependent upon your choice of talent. But your choice ought to be better than another bestial trait, as it is not permanent like they are.
Animal Advisor (N-S): A familiar as though a wizard of your level. Free initiative and perception bonus if you choose properly.
Multiattack (S): Meh. Just a reminder to pick up the feat, if you're a natural attack build.

Bite (G): 1d6 bite. That's equivalent to a trait, but it's permanent and nonmagical. A bonus attack in your full attack.
Gore (G): 1d6 horn, but it's freaking retractable. That's horrific! Go for it.
Spines (G): another 1d6 natural attack but also counts as armor spikes.
Claws (G): a pair of 1d4 claws. Again, worth a trait, but is permanent
Magical Attacks (G): It's well and truly nothing incredible, but for one feat-equivalent, you can save 10s of thousands of gold on your natural attack enhancement. The downside is actually sticking with the class past level 10, and it's relatively slow progression.
Trip (G): Free trip on a bite attack. Prone's a pretty good condition to inflict.
Web (G): Con-base entangle. Not bad.

(Improved) Poison (B-G): Normal adds an optimistic 1/2 level HP damage on a failed con save on a single attack. Improved makes it harder to save against, and debilitate strength as well. If you're going for stat-killing, this is a way. Probably not an efficient way. But you could do it, by stacking as many poisons as possible.
Superior Senses (B-G): If it weren't so easy to get blindsense/sight by the time you qualify, this would be decent, if really short range.

Adaptation, Improved (B-G): That's a lot of resistances. Especially the rare sonic resistance. But is it really worth 2 traits to resist your level in elemental damage? Maybe if your game has a lot of it.
Barding (B-G): If you've got a damned good set of armor, this could be a nice pick up. Else, it's just a bit of AC, and Shifter needs to be multiclassed for heavier armor types.

Chameleon (B): Hide in plain sight. Requires level 10. Doesn't even improve your stealth.
Improved Natural Attack (B): On average, it's increasing the damage of a particular natural attack by +1. And you can't stack it on a single natural attack. That's...not great.
Taste for Blood (B): Not good. Even ignoring the RP, and carrying around a bag of chickens to fuel yourself, you are spending a standard action to grant a really short-term buff.
Quick Healing (B): I mean, objectively speaking, it's like double the effect of toughness, every two levels, except that the hit points are only added the turn after taking a hit. It's better than slow form healing in that it has some slight use in combat. Especially with Guardian sphere. But it's just not great. It is probably best used in levels 4-8, where you got some scaling out of it, and you're not instantly knocked out/killed due to low max hp, but also the damage is not so high that 5 / round is basically out of combat healing.
Scent (B): Needs a particular DM in order for this to be useful. But it's a good range of Scent if it were.
Earth Glide (B): Requires level 10, and another trait that grants burrow speed to grant earth glide. It's a good ability, with abusable characteristics. But you can grab the Earth Elemental talent way earlier and save 2 traits.
Home in the underground (B): 10 burrow speed for the above. Decent on its own, but not anything truly noteworthy.

Home in Nature (N-G): Hey. Look. You can take this ranger feature optionally, for specifically when you know you're using specifically one biome for your entire campaign. If you don't know that's the case, then no. Don't.
Prey (N-G): Oh hey, that other ranger ability that is pointless if you don't know exactly the foe your entire campaign is focused around.
Resistant Shift (N-G): If you find a way to magically predict what saves you will need, then all the more power to you.
Shifting Style (N-G): Depends on build. If you can make use of it, nice. If not, then don't. Obviously.

Adaptation, Greater (N-B): Immunity to fire, or a particularly prevalent element in your campaign is nice. And it's permanent. So, gain, nice. Is it worth it? I'd be hard pressed to say yes. But depends on the game.
Undead Kin (N-B): Healed by negative energy. Maybe you have some a-hole cleric of a dark god that loves to spam his unholy nova with you in melee.

Everything else is trash, see below.
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Powerful Charge (N): Why would you do this, exactly?
Track Master (N): Unless you are, for some reason, playing a survival D&D game, there is no reason to pick this.
(Greater) Permanent Size Change (N): Accommodating Form makes this trait obsolete. Instead of being locked in to a particular size permanently, you can choose your size whenever you shift. Oh, and it's just 1 trait rather than 2.
Jumper (N): There is an acrobatics stacking build to try and get damage out of it but it is so incredibly underwhelming, that I would laugh at you for trying. Even without knowing you are doing it.
Living Death (N): No longer breathe. It's better than Home in Water, if you were picking up undead kin anyway. Not a high bar, gotta say.

Evasion (N): Oh please god no. If you really want this, just take Accommodating Form, Agile talent, and allocate Evasion as a long-term form, and then shift it to initiative or dodge with a combat form.
Feinting Shift (N): WHY?!?! You have absolutely no reason to want to Feint. You have literally 0 synergy with it.
Ferocious (N): Diehard. As the feat. And literally nothing else.
Fey Kin (N): Congratulations, you have the filler ability of druids, but at the cost of not getting something good. It doesn't even grant a bonus vs magical/manipulated weeds.

Flight / (Improve) Spider Climb (N): Effectively a trait that is permanent. But if you used Accommodating Form and selected Elemental Transformation, Dedicated (Air Elemental), you'd have double the speed (by the time you qualify for this) at perfect maneuverability for any form. And generally when you need flight, you have the opportunity to shift to an appropriate form.
Flight, Perfect (N): Improves existing flight maneuverability. Not needed as above.
Flight, Skillful (N): Using a bestial trait (worth a feat) to get a feat...........why? I mean. I guess if you're desperately trying to get to level 20 and ran out of good bestial traits.

Defensive Shift (N): This is honestly baffling. Not enough to spend the trait, and shapeshift and go in to total defense, but you are also staggered next turn.
Detachable Claws (N): You turn your claws in to half-assed throwing daggers for a class feature. Why?
Animal Hide (N): +1 AC is very insubstantial. It is permanent, so it might save you from a night time stabbing, but they can coup de grace you, which ignores AC. Just take Plant Form with Accommodating Form if you really want AC.
Animal Trainer (N): With the exception of if you're using Spheres of Might's Beastmastery sphere (in which case, this goes up to G-S), or if you are literally an NPC running a barn / stable, then there's virtually no point in this.

By popular request (aka, 1 person), I am now dissecting the archetypes first
Apex Shifter (S++): This archetype is literally what makes the shifter worth using. Really, this should be the baseline Shifter, IMO. And make baseline shifter like...I dunno..."Tongue Play Shifter"(?) archetype.
Knowledge of Many Shapes (S++): Replaces the god awful Endurance with a flex talent. That's better than the talent you're going to lose come level 4.
Extended Transformation (G): Replaces the Lingering Transformation with a quicker Extended Transformation, meaning you are less well-off to do the cast and forget transformations. But around the same level you could really start doing that effectively, this class offers you concentration as a swift action.
Rapid Transformation (S+): Replaces the incredibly niche steal language ability with even faster shapechange. You can now shift and full action in the same round.

Greater Transformation (S): Instead of replacing the Lingering Transformation talent at level 17, you replace it at level 9. Still nothing incredible, as it's still basically just replacing the talent you lost by taking level 9. But that's a lot fewer levels.
Reactive Transformation (S++): Replaces the god-awful abilities, and lets you transform and concentrate as an immediate action. Suddenly, you can now shift defensively without needing precognition, or reading your DM's notes.
Ultimate Transformation (N-B): This gives up the un-dispellability of level 20, and the ability to transform in AMFs for the ability to transform as a free action. A shift action is already plenty fast enough. Immediate even more so. And there's even less between level 11 and 20 in the class than before.

Protean (S): Apex Shifter outpeforms this, assuming the Apex Shifter had the right talents. Protean always has the right talents. It's like a Wizard vs an Arcanist....but scaled down to SoP, and then scaled further to Shifters.
Breadth of Form (S+): Gain a frick ton of flex talents, in exchange for the shapeshifts not lasting as long (which is intended - it fits the theme). Alteration is all about flexibility, and this grants you the entire sphere at your fingertips. This makes the hyper specialized forms really useful.
Extra Breadth Of Form (G): Offers you the opportunity to still be useful, even if your planning skills are hindered.

Elemental Scion (S): This is a great little 6-level dip for destruction sphere users who want some major flexibility at the cost of speed. It's even good as a 1 level dip if you don't want full benefit of the free Elemental Transformation. (But better as a level 2 one, due to the destructive trait.)
Elemental Adept (S): A lower power, free elemental transformation. Not bad on its own. Replaces only Wild Empathy. And at level 6, it is now just a free elemental transformation.
Destructive Gift (S+): Grants a flex-talent for any destructive blast associated with her elemental transformation. And you can presumably flex it immediately by just changing forms. This makes the base elementalist obsolete. Then again, so does her archetypes. This does make the archetype incompatible with Apex Shifter, but oh well. These fill different roles.
Destructive Traits (B-S): Depending on what you give up, and what you take at any particular level, this is either bad, or supremely good.

Spellvampire (G-S): Very thematic, with some impressive late-game abilities, if you ever get there. It takes the cake for the one that truly inspires you to never multiclass out, seeking greater and greater power. It just starts out slow and inflexible.
Hunger Within (G): Gains bite at level 1...and alters level 2's bestial trait...what? How so? Does it replace it? I don't understand.
Quick Study (S): Effectively grants a flex talent, so long as you can see the thing you want to flex in to. But if it flexes a (transformation) talent he's already got, then it improves the form by a trait and a caster level. That's pretty nice. Incompatible with Apex Shifter. Not as flexible as Apex nor Protean.
Theft-bound (N-B): Only full caster, so long as you use the flex talent on a (transformation) from Mimicry.

Empress of the Essences (B-G): It only replaces endurance, so congrats. But Manasurge Strike isn't a particularly useful talent when it's restricted to a melee weapon. You give them an attack and save to resist.
Face Stealer (G): Free action shapeshift (even out of turn), with the concentration cost baked in. Has to be using the Mimicked talent you get, but whatever. You also need to make a bite attack against someone you studied, meaning you are already in combat. And you need reach with your face or else you provoke.
Fang-fueled Language (N----): Somehow made the language stuff even worse. Thank you.

Mind Stealer (G-S): Steal spell points or talents from others. Fits the theme so far, and is relatively powerful. It certainly requires a kind enough DM to just feed you batteries. It only replaces a bestial talent, so this is great if you're in the right campaign
Power Stealer (S): Steals natural abilities, class abilities, and immunities. Only one at a time, and for one minute, but hell. This is one hell of a draw. Just imagine the red dragon's face when you fireball him after nibbling his toes.
God Stealer (S+): You deserve it for going 16 levels deep. But damn, 24 hour natural abilities, and steal supernatural and spell like ones too, with those abilities only having a time limit, rather than a limit on the number you can have. And instead of your level, the CR can be up to 20.
Forever Evolving (S++): Removes all limits on the last 3 stealers. And can maintain stolen abilities with spell points.

Martial Shifter (B-G): Can gain martial instead of magical talents when you get them, and start with a martial tradition, at the cost of proficiencies, a bestial trait, and delayed speed. There are shifter-level-based scalings, but...why not just pick up a level of Conscript, grab the 2-3 bonus talents, plus a martial tradition, instead of this? You are giving up basically levels 1 and 2 of this class for this benefit when you can just give up 1 level as a multiclass.

Nocturnal Predator (B): Has potential, but disappoints.
Shadowshifter (G): Full caster on dark and alteration spheres. Bonus talents with drawbacks. Pretty much just fine if you were planning on using Dark sphere. And there are sneaky forms you can use, so there is synergy there.
Hidden Transformation (N-B): Restricts Quick Transformation to areas of dim or darker light. Arguably doesn't conflict with Apex Shifter. But it is a strict downgrade.
Sneak Attack (B): Except it's +1d6 per 3, not 2 levels. And you start it at level 3 instead of 1. But stacking natural attacks is more effective than two weapon fighting. Obviously. Is it effective enough? Dunno. It also replaces your bonus to Con, which sucks.
I Am the Night (G): Replaces bad stuff with stealth bonus and eventually hide in plain sight. But it now definitely conflicts with Apex Shifter.
Rogue Talents (B): In general, rogue talents are worse than Bestial Traits.

Pack Master (B): A decent archetype that doesn't give up much (excluding Apex Shifter), but also fails to grant all that much either, and really asks you to wait until level 20 before its gimmick is made relevant.
Animal Companion (G): You know the drill, it conflicts with Apex Shifter. But let's ignore that and look purely at what it directly replaces, and that gives it a decent use. I mean, DMs tend to hate swarmers, and large swarms of weak animal companions are less good fewer, better ones. But you can distribute as you please.
Improved Empathic Link (B-G): For a bestial trait, lets you see through all of your animal companions' eyes. This is some scouting ability that's only matched by limited use spells, if used properly.
Pack Lord (S): Each animal companion increase their effective druid level by +5. So, spread among 20, that's a +100 levels worth of AC bonuses...split among 20 creatures, who all would be blown away by a single spell. But you could concentrate it more, and it's still be good.

Famine Spirit (B): If you want specifically one big chompy boi, here you go. Maybe with a side of reanimated chicken. If you want to have that chomping actually be good before the end of the campaign, you'll be in for a rude awakening.
Fearsome Transformation (B): Start with 2 bonus talents. But you are a mid caster in both. Not fantastic. Especially as Death isn't particularly synergistic with Alteration. And the class has nothing to do with death sphere aside from thematics.
Parched Tongue (G): Wild Empathy against mindless undead. Not bad if your campaign calls for it.
Fearsome Bite (B / G): Replaces Endurance with Bite trait + Grab trait. That's worth like 1.5 traits. Sure Grab isn't great, but it's just tacked on for free, so sure. Not compatible with Apex Shifter though.
Enhanced Chomp (N): Enhanced Attacks isn't great. But you restrict it to the bite, and then, if you specifically kill it with your bite, you feast on its soul, cursing it to be un-rezable. That's not really useful. Nor reliable.
Infectious Maw (B-G): Missed an opportunity to also integrate with Tomb of Flesh talent. But it's basically unhealable damage...very...very slight damage. And lets them hit you from the inside, while no one else can really hurt it, which is not particularly helpful.
Ravenous Bite (S): This is basically the reason to pick the archetype...and you get that reason at level 8. Yikes. But if you got here, you have the reason. It's also probably why the bestial trait to improve a natural attack can only be taken once per natural attack. Oh, and you do get Vital Strike at the time you would qualify with medium BAB. But it's specifically for the bite, and the bite is only equivalent to a great sword....at level 20. But this is still marked S because it's *the* reason you take the archetype
Insatiable Consumption (G): I mean, Vorpal. Yeah. Pretty decent. Hard to get crit, but pretty decent. Oh, and you actually consume the soul now and largely prevent rezing. That's more useful than Fearsome Bite. But at a level where Wish has been easily gotten for a long time.

Fey Incarnate (B): A lazy archetype with restrictive bonuses.
Of the Fair Folk (B-G): Full caster for Fallen Fey and for Alteration...specifically for Blank form with a trait devoted to Fey Form. That's a notable decrease in utility. Especially as Fallen Fey is not particularly good. But it gains an additional Fallen Fey talent relative to baseline.
Fair Form (G): Give up nothing, but apply Fey-blessing when you shapeshift as above.
Sidhe Link (B-G): Take Fey-blessings in place of bestial traits. Depends on what you give up and take.
Enhanced Presence (G): Casting ability modifier instead of con.
Fey Apotheosis (G): It's the baseline capstone+. But it's a capstone with not very much in between.

Beastmind (N): You don't really gain much from this, and it prevents you from using Apex Shifter.
Mental Transformation (B-G): Trades endurance for skill bonus. Yay. Incompatible with Apex Shifter. Boo.
Enhanced Psychology (B-G): Casting ability instead of con. Cool? I guess? But Shifter is hardly a caster class. (Unless you take Elemental Scion)
Shifting Mind (G): Second chance to succeed at a mind-affecting effect, when your low save is will. That's useful. Would you have been better served by multiclassing in to a high will save class? Probably.
Bestial Mind (N-B): Count as a different creature for the purpose of mind-affecting...which would have been pretty useful ages ago. By this point charm monster can already be used by players and dominate monster is probably available to enemies and does not give a flying frick.

Dimension Shifter (N):
Blink (N-G): If you have a way of negating the miss chance, well it's a good defensive layer that replaces Wild Empathy. If you can't, this sucks. Also counts as a full caster (for specifically Blink).
Dimension Shifting (B / G): Shapeshift and blink as the same action and concentration. Not awful on its own. Problem being that it replaces the quick transformation, meaning that unless you've got a Boon, that's still a standard action, locking you out of any meaningful actions during your round if you concentrate. Oh, and this makes it noncompatible with Apex Shifter.
Ghostly Sight (B-G): Meh. Incredibly niche. Probably better ways to see ethereal than to spend a class ability on it. But it only replaces Endurance, so...it's there if you want it.
Dive (N-B): So, instead of true teleporting via Warp base sphere, you get this hamstrung version. Congrats. I mean. At least it's a move rather than standard action. But coming in at level 4, where you are losing a talent for taking this level rather than one in full caster.
Ghostly Touch (G): Replace niche ability with offensive and defensive ghost touch. Not bad.
Submerge (B): You now don't get shunted out for landing in an object. That's got cheese potential. But unlike Earth Glide, you can only simply remove yourself from the object you have dived in to. So no cheese.
Ghostly Claws (G): Now touch attack with a single natural weapon. OK.... But touch attack with all natural weapons for a round with a spell point. That's...not...bad. It's costly, and your spell point-saving abilities are being replaced by this archetype, so yikes. But on its own, it's good.
the rest (N-B): There's no way for the rest of it to save this archetype. Especially that level 20 capstone. Let's move on


Alteration talents:
Transformation talents are those that grant entirely new base forms to work with. I will also include the Blank Form, which is the alteration base sphere.
Elemental Transformation, Dedicated (S): Want to cast and fly (or grant fly to another form)? Take Air. Want earthglide and all its nonsense? Earth. ...um...Burn on a good natural attack base form as a trait? Fire... OK, there are some hits and misses here.
Elemental Transformation (S): You want flexible utility? This has it. It was nerfed in USOP (with good reason), but you've still got your flight form, burrow form, swim form, and burn form. It does cost a spell point though

Vermin Transformation (G-S): Grants 9 limbs. 9! and 1 attack. Also for traits, you've got a con-based entangle, as well as the poison trait, which you need for a stat-killer shifter.
Dragon Transformation (G): Gains 6 limbs, 1 attack, and it can speak and somatic gesture. Sort of a cross between a casting and natural attack-spam form. Which, while on the low side of good, does have its uses (especially for some builds). Oh, and a very minor CD-based breath weapon.
Plant Transformation (G): Very solid combat form with 2 arms and 2 slams (which don't take up limb slots) and +4 natural armor, with more as a trait. It's basically the best talent for the Transformation feat, as it doesn't require traits nor levels to function pretty much as well as it will.

Avian (B-G): It's not a bad talent in and of itself. It's just that it's pit against the elemental transformations. It's sort of like a hybrid between their utility, and actual natural attack spam. I'm not sure it's a good role though.
Blank (B-G): You don't give anything up from your basic form, and it costs nothing. You do, however, not get the benefits of many of the transformation talents' bonuses like natural armor and special movement and stuff.
Object Transformation(B-G): for a spell point, you can make yourself a limb-less object. With hardness of 0. If you spent another talent, and have several caster levels, you might get hardness 3 by level 6. Best for use in infiltration missions. Also its traits are decent.

Orb Transformation(B-G): This is highly specialized for infiltration. Combined with Size Change trait, you are essentially ethereal if there's even the tiniest crack. Also you get a +4 to stealth just for having the form, and can't set off most traps, thanks to float, and just being so small. Dodge is also less easily bypassed than natural armor. So yeah, it's specialized.
Serpentine Transformation (B); A specialized mage-grappler transformation, with little other combat utility or effectiveness.
Ooze Transformation(B): Yeah. Sad as it is to say, there's nothing really here. It doesn't really offer anything of note. The one exception is Engulf, which, when combined with high speed can be used to hoover up a bunch of nobodies.

Anthropomorphic (B / G): This is used as a utility transformation to basically give mindless creatures minds, speechless creatures speech, etc, etc. Basically have them pretend they're people. For what it does, it's good. For general use, not so much.
Subterranean Transformation (N): Absolutely nothing remarkable about it aside from the burrow speed trait. Meanwhile you can get Earthglide as a trait if you chose the dedicated elemental transformation. Tremorsense is a unique sense that it grants too, but. Is it worth a talent for a 20ft detection?
Animalistic Transformation (N): 5 legs and 1 head. 1 bite. The only thing remotely notable is the 40 ft move speed, which is hardly notable at all.

Aquan Transformation (C): Rated C for Cheese. It's a save or die effect, unless you're playing an aquatic campaign. You might be able to get this off once in a game before the DM bans the talent.

These are themed sets of traits to add to forms.
Aberrant Body (G): Mucus is save or suffocate. And Gibbering is anti-caster. Stick it on a snake. Creep em out. Roper Strands are quite decent CC. Only one can affect drain str per round, but they must be cut one by one, which soaks actions, and keeps them pinned down.
Undead Body (G): DR 5 /slashing or bludgeoning your choice - major early one. Decent resistances. Fear aura is also pretty nice if you get to that level.
Cosmic Body (G): Very minor deflection bonus, lunge as a trait, but most notably is concealment. Which, while effective on its own as a defensive layer, lets rogues do their things.

Protean Mastery (N-B): Not much to speak about. Shift Organs has the best usefulness, if you know you're walking in to a thief's den.
Outsider Body(N): Even worse DR than Fey Body, but you can make sure it can't be penetrated. It's also got some of the most niche bonuses ever on the secondary traits.
Fey Body (N): Low level DR of 3 as a trait. The rest are filler abilities for traits. Why?


Size Change (S+): Extremely flexible. Extremely powerful.
Greater Changes (S): An extra trait. Yes. Every time.
Additional Limbs (S): This is a required talent if you want to spam natural attacks. Unless you take Vermin Transformation. But even then, this has some slight utility. And most notably, you can just have extra heads for bonus to *all* skills.
Agile (S): Improved Initiative, but as a trait. Dodge bonus to AC, and situational uncanny dodge and evasion. All good, really, which means the package is superb.

Bestial Reflexes (G-S): Pounce. That's basically it, and it costs a spell point, but if you're a natural attack spammer, this is *the* talent to get.

Mimicry: (G-S) Lets you flex a talent, without even having used a trait.
Perfect Imitation (G-S): Extremely specialized for infiltration. Up to +15 to disguise as someone specific. Increased to +25 with an illusion talent and feat. That's basically unbeatable. And even not in that situation, +5 to stealth isn't a bad trait.
Lingering Transformation (G-S): Lets you be more loosey goosey with your transformations. Especially with Apex Shifter.

Odiferous (G): Sickened's a pretty good debuff. Especially as a passive aura. But you stink. Your party wouldn't like this as a long term form.
Swarm Shape (G): Eh. It's...got it's place.
Twisted Shapeshift (G): Yeah. Pretty good. Blinded. Can't provide vocal components. and either sickened or nauseated.
Giant Traits (B-S): I mean, that's a thrown greatsword. Very niche, in a category of build that Paizo hates, but also build-enabling. Go with Barrage sphere. That'd be fun.

Powerful Limbs (B-G): +1 size to a *single* natural attack as a trait. Not great. Powerful Arms increases size handling of weapons, which means bigger rocks from Giant Traits.
Mass Alteration (B-G): If you're buffing your party with non-long term buffs, for whatever reason, then here. Save yourself some action economy. Doesn't help the spell point issue.
Prickly (B-G): Very niche. Not very impactful. Spines don't need a limb to gain though.

Tentacles (B): Eh. I mean. Tentacles don't need a limb of their own to be added to.
Retain Ability (B): One trait *per* ability you retain. That's a really bad ratio. Generally best to either not need it, or use Blank Form.
Bully (B): Reposition, etc, when hitting is decent CC. Not great. The other conditionally adds +1/2 strength to damage to a single attack for a trait
Bestial Spirit (N): Pretty much meaningless, save for Trip, which is decent to have. But probably not for a trait and a talent.

Animal Mind (N): Will save or the casters lose. Not generally the best idea to target casters with will saves. And that's the only thing this talent does.
Morphic Weapon (N): No.
Vitality (N): No. Take life sphere.
Extreme Adaptation (N): No.

EldritchWeaver
2020-04-03, 06:58 AM
If that is actually USoP, then please use USoP in the title.

Drakhan
2020-04-03, 12:33 PM
While I can agree with sections of the guide, I feel it's pretty biased to your own games and higher optimization levels. It's also completely discounting archetypes that could make use of bestial traits that the core shifter might not be able to use. Feinting shift and martial shifter come to mind.

SangoProduction
2020-04-03, 02:22 PM
While I can agree with sections of the guide, I feel it's pretty biased to your own games and higher optimization levels. It's also completely discounting archetypes that could make use of bestial traits that the core shifter might not be able to use. Feinting shift and martial shifter come to mind.

I was going to make a section for archetypes, but just ran out of time. That said, Martial Shifter still doesn't have any synergy with it.

I go over the benefits and problems of feints here, including SoM. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?550048-Making-Feinting-work

Drakhan
2020-04-03, 02:47 PM
I look forward to seeing the inclusion of archetypes! Even if groups in my own game rarely close in on the upper echelons of optimization these kinds of guides are great for those players/times when people are interested.

As for martial shifter, and feinting, I've had players use it to good effect so Idk that I'd discount it.

SangoProduction
2020-04-04, 12:24 AM
OK, finished archetypes. And alteration talents.

ShadowcatX
2022-08-11, 07:16 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with you on your rating for prey. It can be niche, but if you do know what you're fighting it can be S+.

There's also a feat that works with the scout sphere to let you treat anything you scout as a favored enemy with your highest bonus. That may have came out after your ratings.

StSword
2022-08-12, 03:10 PM
Apex Shifter doesn't alter or replace enhanced physicality? So it looks to me like it would be the two capstones that make Apex and Fey Incarnate incompatible archetypes.

Or am I missing something cause I'm tired?

SangoProduction
2022-08-12, 03:45 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with you on your rating for prey. It can be niche, but if you do know what you're fighting it can be S+.

There's also a feat that works with the scout sphere to let you treat anything you scout as a favored enemy with your highest bonus.

Wow. I actually forgot to hit submit. And now what I wrote is gone. I am sad.
Anyway.
Like I said, it's worthless if you don't know exactly what you're fighting. And I agree that it's better if you do have a high degree of certainty of your opponent type, or you can flex it easily, it can be (at absolute most) Good. It's a +2 bonus, that only scales if you put more traits into it. Even ignoring the chance that it just straight up doesn't apply to some amount of the enemies.
At plus 10 percentage points to hit, it's worth about 1/10 of a new weapon attack, which can be gotten for the exact same trait. (Real value varies based on actual chance to hit against a particular enemy, which has far too many variables to easily calculate.) But let's just be honest, hitting more reliably feels better than having more attacks.


Apex Shifter doesn't alter or replace enhanced physicality? So it looks to me like it would be the two capstones that make Apex and Fey Incarnate incompatible archetypes.

Or am I missing something cause I'm tired?

You are correct, as far as I can tell. Why?

ShadowcatX
2022-08-15, 07:19 AM
Like I said, it's worthless if you don't know exactly what you're fighting.

And like I said there's a sphere/feat combo that makes it apply to everything.


At plus 10 percentage points to hit, it's worth about 1/10 of a new weapon attack, which can be gotten for the exact same trait.

I don't know how you figure a +10% chance to hit across a half dozen or more attacks is equal to 1/10th of a new attack (that may only have a 60% chance to hit) but I can assure you that your math is wrong. Once you can reliably hit 95% of the time though I will admit it suffers from diminishing returns.

Also, remember natural attacks are limited by the number of limbs you can grow. It doesn't matter if you have the option to take a bite attack if you already have gore.

I'll also point out that unlike other natural attacks favored enemy has out of combat uses as well.

SangoProduction
2022-08-15, 09:55 AM
And like I said there's a sphere/feat combo that makes it apply to everything.



I don't know how you figure a +10% chance to hit across a half dozen or more attacks is equal to 1/10th of a new attack (that may only have a 60% chance to hit) but I can assure you that your math is wrong. Once you can reliably hit 95% of the time though I will admit it suffers from diminishing returns.

Also, remember natural attacks are limited by the number of limbs you can grow. It doesn't matter if you have the option to take a bite attack if you already have gore.

I'll also point out that unlike other natural attacks favored enemy has out of combat uses as well.

And I did address the ability to flex it...agreeing with you. In literally the sentence that you cut off right after that.

In my original write out of the post, I did specify 1/10 per attack. Sorry that I forgot to write that again, but I appreciate you pointing it out.
If you're going all-in on NA spam, as a shifter, with Alteration sphere, then the number of limbs literally doesn't matter until you pass level 20. (By which point, that tactics has many other issues with this tactic.)

StSword
2022-08-15, 03:27 PM
You are correct, as far as I can tell. Why?

Cause you typed "Enhanced Presence (B-G): Casting ability modifier instead of con. Which makes it incompatible with Apex Shifter," under fey incarnate and I found that confusing.

SangoProduction
2022-08-15, 09:04 PM
Cause you typed "Enhanced Presence (B-G): Casting ability modifier instead of con. Which makes it incompatible with Apex Shifter," under fey incarnate and I found that confusing.

Yeah. Strange. Why'd I say that?
Thanks for noticing.

ShadowcatX
2022-08-18, 10:08 AM
And I did address the ability to flex it...agreeing with you. In literally the sentence that you cut off right after that.

In my original write out of the post, I did specify 1/10 per attack. Sorry that I forgot to write that again, but I appreciate you pointing it out.
If you're going all-in on NA spam, as a shifter, with Alteration sphere, then the number of limbs literally doesn't matter until you pass level 20. (By which point, that tactics has many other issues with this tactic.)

Your math is not correct here. For example, if you have a single natural attack, with a 5% chance to hit adding another natural attack that is also a 5% to hit doubles your likelihood to hit, but gaining a +10% to hit triples the likelihood, making the bonus significantly more important than gaining a natural attack. There's a band of values where gaining a bonus to hit (to all attacks) is more valuable than gaining an additional attack, the more attacks you have the wider that band grows.

Ultimately a +2 to hit and damage is worth about 3 feats. You're paying 1 feat equivalent for it. The first time you take it, you really have to pay a fair price in order to set it up (scout sphere and another feat), but each successive time you take it, it gets better and better (until you cap your attack bonus at 95% of everything you fight).

I think if you build a build with prey taken 2 or 3 times you'll find it has better average damage than builds that only take more natural attacks with their selections.

SangoProduction
2022-08-18, 09:01 PM
Your math is not correct here. For example, if you have a single natural attack, with a 5% chance to hit adding another natural attack that is also a 5% to hit doubles your likelihood to hit, but gaining a +10% to hit triples the likelihood, making the bonus significantly more important than gaining a natural attack. There's a band of values where gaining a bonus to hit (to all attacks) is more valuable than gaining an additional attack, the more attacks you have the wider that band grows.

Ultimately a +2 to hit and damage is worth about 3 feats. You're paying 1 feat equivalent for it. The first time you take it, you really have to pay a fair price in order to set it up (scout sphere and another feat), but each successive time you take it, it gets better and better (until you cap your attack bonus at 95% of everything you fight).

I think if you build a build with prey taken 2 or 3 times you'll find it has better average damage than builds that only take more natural attacks with their selections.

As I said, the exact value varies based on actual chance to hit. I could provide you a spreadsheet, that actually does the expected damage calculation for you, for each chance to hit you had prior to picking it up. Or we can accept that 10 percentage points is 10 percentage points, except in the edge cases, where it really doesn't matter because it's not actually a fight.

It would take 3 feats down the Weapon Focus tree to get +2 to hit. Sure.
But you can also pick up another natural attack for the same cost, which was what is being compared to. And I've agreed with you that, at its best, it is roughly equivalent.