Good or Bad: Moon Druid

[ProsecutorGodot]

The discussion had been rolling in this direction during a thread about low stats but this seemed of topic to begin it's own discussion.

Do you see it as a good or bad thing that Moon Druid can be effective with almost any starting ability scores? Is it a saving Grace that this option exists as an optional choice for these unfortunate characters or a bad thing that there's an option that can effectively overcome such penalties while also being incredibly strong overall?

It bothered me a bit personally to see Moon Druid offered so simple as the answer. It seems to always be the answer for sub par stats.

[Keravath]

It seems to me that moon druid can mitigate bad stats in a limited number of combats in a day. It doesn't do more than that though. All it does is give a character with bad all around stats that can't excel at either caster or combat an option where they can be half decent.

Moon druid is powerful at levels 2-4. Forms available fall off quite a bit through level 5-9 relative to martial characters who can increase stats and use ASIs for feats. Level 10 sees another boost with elemental forms but these are then only 1/Short rest and the druid has to walk around all day looking like an elemental.

In addition, none of the forms help with any of the social skills or other mental stat related tasks. The druid's casting won't be that effective with low DCs though druid does have access to some useful spells that don't depend on DCs.

So, the combination of moderate combat ability due to beast forms combined with some spells that don't rely on their casting stat (e.g. conjuration, some buffs) mean that you can make a moon druid work when other classes could not. However, it doesn't make it great or even necessarily good ... just a good alternative when you aren't effective in any other role.

[Democratus]

Stats just aren't super important in 5th edition, thanks to bounded accuracy and a change in how classes are designed.

A Wis 10 druid has access to all spell levels (unlike some previous editions) and can be perfectly viable in play.

Whether Moon Druid is good is really a matter of whether someone has fun playing it.

[Man_Over_Game]

Honestly, I think it's kinda toxic to have the Moon Druid forms be so effective that Moon Druids can afford to ignore their full-casting potential.

Look at any other subclass in the game. They build around the core mechanic of the class, not create one that's so effective that players can afford to ignore their main class.

My solution was to modify Wild Shape forms so that they're a versatile tool for all druids, not an alternative playstyle or just a tool for scouting. Similar to how the Bladesinger's mode is to the Wizard, it does more than one thing but never overshadows the core mechanic.

"The HP values of Wild Shape forms is halved. However, losing your Wild Shape form from damage will cause you to have Resistance to all damage until the start of your next turn.
Additionally, you are considered to have your proficiency bonus applied twice for any skills or saving throw proficiencies your Wild Shape grants you"

So now a Moon Druid is "Druid that specializes in beast forms", not "Animal that turns into a Druid after taking lots of damage". They're incentivized to use their Wild Shape for uses other than combat, but also as a defensive option for all Druids, and so it feels like a more fleshed-out and balanced part of their kit.

[Christew]

I think Wild Shape IS arguably the core mechanic for Moon Druids. They lack the spell recovery and diversified casting of Land Druids, so a more apt statement would be an "animal that turns into a subpar druid when they run out of hit points." Nerfing Wild Shape for a Moon Druid is tantamount to nerfing Rage for Barbarians -- they just become a worse version of a fighter without it.

That said, I do kind of like the resistance to damage mechanic when you get knocked out of form, so there's certainly potential here.

[MaxWilson]

The discussion had been rolling in this direction during a thread about low stats but this seemed of topic to begin it's own discussion.

Do you see it as a good or bad thing that Moon Druid can be effective with almost any starting ability scores? Is it a saving Grace that this option exists as an optional choice for these unfortunate characters or a bad thing that there's an option that can effectively overcome such penalties while also being incredibly strong overall?

It bothered me a bit personally to see Moon Druid offered so simple as the answer. It seems to always be the answer for sub par stats.

Good. It's fun and effective.

It's not the only thing you can do with stats below 10 (fighters, rogues, necromancers, shepherd druids, clerics, and arguably even barbarians work too) but it's the one that is least controversial and easiest to describe. Least likely to result in an Internet argument.


I think Wild Shape IS arguably the core mechanic for Moon Druids. They lack the spell recovery and diversified casting of Land Druids, so a more apt statement would be an "animal that turns into a subpar druid when they run out of hit points." Nerfing Wild Shape for a Moon Druid is tantamount to nerfing Rage for Barbarians -- they just become a worse version of a fighter without it.

That said, I do kind of like the resistance to damage mechanic when you get knocked out of form, so there's certainly potential here.

Land Druid gets a tiny bonus to spell slots on the order of an extra couple of spells per day. Moon Druid should ignore spellcasting no more than a Shepherd Druid should ignore wildshape. Especially at levels 5-9 and 13ish-19 making good use of spellcasting is a core part of effective Moon Druidry. Fortunately though most of your best spells still work fine even with Wis 3 (although Healing Spirit is no longer on that list).

E.g. Spike Growth, Heat Metal, Pass Without Trace, Polymorph, Conjure Animals, Conjure Elemental, Conjure (Quicklings) Woodland Creatures, Freedom of Movement, Plant Growth, Goodberry, Transport Via Plants, Foresight, Shapechange.

[Man_Over_Game]

I think Wild Shape IS arguably the core mechanic for Moon Druids. They lack the spell recovery and diversified casting of Land Druids, so a more apt statement would be an "animal that turns into a subpar druid when they run out of hit points." Nerfing Wild Shape for a Moon Druid is tantamount to nerfing Rage for Barbarians -- they just become a worse version of a fighter without it.

That said, I do kind of like the resistance to damage mechanic when you get knocked out of form, so there's certainly potential here.

Druids have the same armor proficiencies and casting as medium armored Clerics. The only casting augment most of those Clerics get is bonus damage on their cantrips, and that's because Clerics lack many damage spells, and spells that use their action/bonus action. Druids don't.

To me, it's like replacing the Domain powers and spells of a War Cleric with Barbarian Rage. Still a fullcasting Cleric, and most of the power you'd want out of a Barbarian.

Heck, in the Moon Druid's defense, you can do both at the same time (with Concentration spells).

I think there's a stigma about Druids being poor casters, but I see:


A caster that can give allies magic ranged weapons as a bonus action.
Healing Word
Ice Knife
Absorb Elements
Flaming Sphere
Heat Metal
Hold Person
Moonbeam
Pass Without Trace
Call Lightning
Conjure Animals


And that's just up to level 3.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

Moon Druids are weird.

At some levels they are extremely powerful, but at others they are rather poor. If you are running a level 20 game, wow. If you are running levels 5-9, yuck. D&D5 tried to move away from this kind of 'balance' and the Moon Druid is their greatest failure.

To the extent that your GM is generous with standard magic items, Moon Druids start to really suck, because these items are not compatible with their signature feature.

Moon Druids are definitely good if you rolled terrible stats. But that just means you have something reasonable to play, and is hardly a real problem.

On the other hand, since Moon Druids don't care as much about stats, they are at a real disadvantage compared to other characters in a game without Feats. Because not needing stats cuts both ways, right?

I do have some problems with the Moon Druid, but not this problem.

Anyway,

Ken

[Christew]

I'm not saying they should ignore spellcasting, just that they largely can if they want. Throw up a concentration spell before you Wild Shape and then burn spell slots for healing. Especially with Elemental form this can be a viable low casting playstyle.

On my high level druid I found it a really compelling to have to make the choice between staying in my combat form or dropping it in order to be able to heal teammates.

Overall, I think druid is a really solid class. Admittedly prone to peaks and valleys in progression, but their general versatility sees them through most things.

[MaxWilson]

If you are running levels 5-9, yuck.

How differently we feel! Level 5 is when Moon Druids start to get really fun. Well, levels 2-4 are fun too, but level 5, 6, and 7 are all game-changers in various ways.

[col_impact]

I used to think Mooon Druids were the bees knees, but then I realized Shepherd druids are flat out better to Moon Druids in every way once you hit 17th level.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I used to think Mooon Druids were the bees knees, but then I realized Shepherd druids are flat out better to Moon Druids in every way once you hit 17th level.

The title probably doesn't help communicate this as well as it could, but the comparison I was hoping to make was between classes playable with "awful" ability scores, Moon Druid being the most well known, easiest and generally considered to be one of the stronger classes in 5E.

MaxWilson's response was a pretty good example and has got me thinking a bit more about if it's a problem that there's a "better" solution out of several instead of Moon Druid being the only decent choice. Ovarwa brings up a good point also, Moon Druids don't get much better with better stats than a Shepherd Druid would as you suggest.

I'd also like to clarify that my stance, even though I personally dislike it, is that the option is not bad to have. I just thought a discussion was worth having on if classes that more or less ignore stats is good, Moon Druid being the most well known example of such a class.

[Christew]

Gotcha. To clarify, I don't think being able to make functional characters with less than ideal stats is a bad thing, quite the contrary. As pointed out by others, 5e is a pretty forgiving system as a whole and bounded accuracy limits the effect of stats. An 8 vs a 20 is only a six point swing which is mitigated by differing character proficiencies.

Writ large, working with poor stats will limit the choices in play style and character development that you have available to you. A low WIS Moon Druid may be playable, but it will be inherently less viable and allow for fewer options than a high WIS Moon Druid. Ergo, let 'em play ref.

[col_impact]

Shepherd Druids are even better than Moon Druids with low stats. There is no skill roll to heal or cast Conjure Animals or Conjure Woodland Beings or Spike Growth, Heat Metal, Plant Growth, Goodberry, Awaken, Animal Shapes, Shapechange, etc.

[MaxWilson]

Shepherd Druids are even better than Moon Druids with low stats. There is no skill roll to heal or cast Conjure Animals or Conjure Woodland Beings or Spike Growth, Heat Metal, Plant Growth, Goodberry, Awaken, Animal Shapes, Shapechange, etc.

The main reason I'd prefer Moon Druid on a low-stats PC is because a low-stats Shepherd Druid is quite vulnerable. Dex 9 Con 10 makes a perfectly good Moon Druid, but an AC 13ish Shepherd Druid with 3+5*level HP is more fragile than I like, especially if you're trying to keep concentration on a good spell like Conjure Animals. (Yes, I know you can wildshape into e.g. Ape form to increase your stats, giving you a theoretical AC of 17 in half plate + shield, which is pretty durable while Dodging. But who wants Dodging while wildshaped to be your only option?)

[Christew]

Different strokes for different folks, but there are significant playstyle differences between a Shepherd that can cast adequately with mediocre stats and a Moon that can spend a significant portion of their day with different stats (STR, CON, DEX, HP and Attacks).

[col_impact]

The main reason I'd prefer Moon Druid on a low-stats PC is because a low-stats Shepherd Druid is quite vulnerable. Dex 9 Con 10 makes a perfectly good Moon Druid, but an AC 13ish Shepherd Druid with 3+5*level HP is more fragile than I like, especially if you're trying to keep concentration on a good spell like Conjure Animals. (Yes, I know you can wildshape into e.g. Ape form to increase your stats, giving you a theoretical AC of 17 in half plate + shield, which is pretty durable while Dodging. But who wants Dodging while wildshaped to be your only option?)

If only our builds had access to Sanctuary somehow.

[elyktsorb]

Feels bad to play any Druid that isn't moon in a campaign where you don't get past 10th level. What would you rather be, a Spore Druid? Or 2 Dire Wolves at lvl 2.

And I have tried to use wildshape in combat as a non-moon druid, it just isn't fun. So on one hand I think it's good that Moon Druid is designed that it doesn't quite matter if you have good stats or not, I think it's bad in that wildshape seems purposefully held back because it has to be good only for Moon Druid.

ALSO, being a druid is kind of, unfun in a way? Like, being able to turn into a bird to scout an area, like, alright, even if you fail your stealth, if you picked a creature native to the area, or something small like a regular spider, no one's going to bother. Where as with other classes, you have to you know, actually try to do that stuff. Wildshape on any druid other than moon just seems like a 'free situational win button' (I mean it is still a free situational win button on Moon Druid, but at least there you have to decide if you're going to waste a use on utility stuff, when it's super important for your combat, non-moon druids can just spend wildshape pretty freely without much thought)

(Also plz buff Spore druid, kthxbye)

[Dr. Cliché]

For me at least, Moon Druids just feel like a bit of a mess.

I love the idea of a shapeshifter-based subclass but not the execution. I think they really should have had a pre-statted animal form that gradually increases in power (similar to some of the Summons and companions - where they get bonuses based on your proficiency bonus). Could have had a few basic forms (land, swimming, flying), which appear as any appropriate animal and gain different abilities as the druid increases in level.

Instead, the Moon Druid's power level is a mess because it starts out very strong but then its forms quickly become inefficient. Not only that but you quickly have to leave behind any theme you wanted to build on - because there are no high-CR wolves, bears or any such to use. And then in spite of the Moon Druid being entirely animal-focused, from Lv10 onwards you suddenly shift into full reverse-gear and become an Elemental-Druid instead.

As for it being stat-independent, I don't think that's really true. At least in my experience there are a lot of times when you either can't transform or don't want to, not to mention that you're still a full-caster and you keep your mental stats even when transformed, so having poor Wisdom especially seems far from ideal. Also, on the caster front, I know people have said that you can pick spells that are less reliant on stats, but that's not being stat-independent - that's being strongly pushed towards certain spells because your stats make other (potentially better) spells too unreliable.

[MaxWilson]

If only our builds had access to Sanctuary somehow.

On a low-stats PC, you probably can't multiclass to get Sanctuary access: Wis 11ish is not unusual. Also, on a low-stats PC, Sanctuary is not very effective, especially on an AC 13ish chassis, and casting Sanctuary in every fight while your Conjure Animals is up (1) is expensive, (2) has potential issues with winning initiative, (3) is boring and repetitive.


And I have tried to use wildshape in combat as a non-moon druid, it just isn't fun. So on one hand I think it's good that Moon Druid is designed that it doesn't quite matter if you have good stats or not, I think it's bad in that wildshape seems purposefully held back because it has to be good only for Moon Druid.

How differently we feel! What forms did you try? For a low-level Shepherd Druid my favorite is Ape because you can still wear armor and a shield, and you get some decent attacks (although it's better to just Dodge). For a mid-level Shepherd Druid (level 8+) I love Giant Octopus, especially if you're already Mage Armored. AC 14 and 52-104 free HP per short rest + free Sentinel equivalent, baby! (But only if you're not worried about losing concentration, due to Warcaster + Resilient (Con) or not having anything important up anyway.) Yes it's slow though, so do your movement in human shape before wildshaping as an action to pin somebody in place.

Note BTW that I'm saying "fun", not "powerful". It's something you would do during a random encounter to save on spell slots, not something you would do during a climactic battle. (Or rather, during a climactic battle you'd probably want to pre-cast Conjure Animals or Conjure Woodland Creatures (Quicklings) and then wildshape into something with high mobility so you can stay out of combat entirely.)


As for it being stat-independent, I don't think that's really true. At least in my experience there are a lot of times when you either can't transform or don't want to, not to mention that you're still a full-caster and you keep your mental stats even when transformed, so having poor Wisdom especially seems far from ideal. Also, on the caster front, I know people have said that you can pick spells that are less reliant on stats, but that's not being stat-independent - that's being strongly pushed towards certain spells because your stats make other (potentially better) spells too unreliable.

Which better spells are you thinking of? For me at least druid spells are stat-independent enough that I never feel any real pressure to raise Wisdom instead of investing in feats. In fact, Wis 18-20 on a Moon Druid due to high rolls feels kind of like a waste, like I should have made that character a monk instead of something.

(Yes, I know Charm Person, Planar Binding, Antipathy/Sympathy, Feeblemind, and Reverse Gravity rely on Wisdom, and no, those spells aren't a waste if you've got high Wisdom already, and they're not even a waste if you have medium-low Wisdom although they are less efficient.)

[Dr. Cliché]

Which better spells are you thinking of? For me at least druid spells are stat-independent enough that I never feel any real pressure to raise Wisdom instead of investing in feats. In fact, Wis 18-20 on a Moon Druid due to high rolls feels kind of like a waste, like I should have made that character a monk instead of something.

You actually name some yourself but I'd also throw out:
- All the Druid damage Cantrips
- Faerie Fire
- Entangle
- Healing Spirit (following the severe nerf)
- Flaming Sphere/Moonbeam/Call Lightning (I've grouped these as their effects are pretty similar but I think a lot of Druids would appreciate having one of them)
- Wall of Fire
- Confusion
(Not an exhaustive list, just a selection for consideration.)




(Yes, I know Charm Person, Planar Binding, Antipathy/Sympathy, Feeblemind, and Reverse Gravity rely on Wisdom, and no, those spells aren't a waste if you've got high Wisdom already, and they're not even a waste if you have medium-low Wisdom although they are less efficient.)

The underlined section is kind of my point - there are a significant number of Druid spells that rely on Wisdom and which are hurt by you having low Wisdom. So if nothing else you're playing with a much more restricted spell list by having low Wisdom. So you're still being affected by low Wisdom, just in a different way. Does that make sense?

[LudicSavant]

Stats just aren't super important in 5th edition, thanks to bounded accuracy

In previous editions where bounded accuracy wasn't a thing, I could dump a stat and get +30 to the check and auto-succeed anyways. With 5e's Bounded Accuracy, that stat is actually more likely to impact the results of my roll (and is a much larger portion of my character's modifier compared to factors like skill proficiencies and such).

If anything I think 5e brings the troubles with the attribute system to the forefront, which is why we constantly have threads about it.

[elyktsorb]

How differently we feel! What forms did you try? For a low-level Shepherd Druid my favorite is Ape because you can still wear armor and a shield, and you get some decent attacks (although it's better to just Dodge). For a mid-level Shepherd Druid (level 8+) I love Giant Octopus, especially if you're already Mage Armored. AC 14 and 52-104 free HP per short rest + free Sentinel equivalent, baby! (But only if you're not worried about losing concentration, due to Warcaster + Resilient (Con) or not having anything important up anyway.) Yes it's slow though, so do your movement in human shape before wildshaping as an action to pin somebody in place.

As for Ape? Yeah no, there is no way you can justify still wearing armor as an Ape (maybe you could make the argument for a chimpanzee, but Ape's are clearly Gorilla's in dnd), any humanoid that wears armor is no where near the correct specifications to be able to wear armor, effectively, that you were wearing already, as an ape. That's on top of having seen an Ape, how often does anyone see an Ape? Like seriously, how many people actually have justification for having seen an animal to be able to turn into one. I assume a lot of people hand wave this, because frankly it sucks but it's still there. Shield fine, I mean I could absolutely make an argument that an Ape couldn't use a shield effectively either since they don't have the range of movement/dexterity in their hands to use it properly, but that's a bit more of a moot point.

I have played many dnd 5e games, I don't think I've seen an ape once. I mean I've never played anything in a tropical setting but yeah.

9 times out of 10, it's more useful to just position yourself and shoot cantrips at things than to go into a animal form, especially since it means your unable to cast spells, sure you can keep ones up you did cast, but that's a lot of faith your going to make your rolls.

[MaxWilson]

You actually name some yourself but I'd also throw out:
- All the Druid damage Cantrips
- Faerie Fire
- Entangle
- Healing Spirit (following the severe nerf)
- Flaming Sphere/Moonbeam/Call Lightning (I've grouped these as their effects are pretty similar but I think a lot of Druids would appreciate having one of them)
- Wall of Fire
- Confusion
(Not an exhaustive list, just a selection for consideration.)

The underlined section is kind of my point - there are a significant number of Druid spells that rely on Wisdom and which are hurt by you having low Wisdom. So if nothing else you're playing with a much more restricted spell list by having low Wisdom. So you're still being affected by low Wisdom, just in a different way. Does that make sense?

Not really. The thing is, you can still abuse Antipathy/Sympathy or Planar Binding even with low Wisdom. It will just take more time and/or material components, but your spell list doesn't narrow.

Wall of Fire doesn't really care about Wisdom much (5d8 auto damage to whoever goes through it or ends their turn near it on the hot side), and Call Lightning is save for half and long duration--a Wis 12 Moon Druid can still kill things with it while kiting.

Agreed about Entangle and Faerie Fire--having low Wisdom does hamper you at low levels before better uses of your concentration come online, especially at level 1 when you've got no wildshape yet either.

I do like Confusion but most people dislike it and would prefer Conjure Animals or Polymorph. But you're right, a Wis 3 druid shouldn't even bother to prepare Confusion, or Entangle or Faerie Fire--it will never be a good use of your action in combat.

I would still value Call Lightning and Wall of Fire even as a Wis 3 Moon Druid though, and would prepare them under some circumstances.

Therefore I don't view the spell list for a Wis 10ish druid as more than mildly restricted, and for Wis 3ish as moderately restricted.