OOTS #1198 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Keltest]

Heh. Belkar and Roy bonding over the disrespect of their enemies not remembering them. Didn't see that one coming.

[Alcore]

Oh Roy... I think he'll remember you this time (just don't expect a name)

[Reboot]

I dunno. He seemed pretty unbothered in the desert, it was only Redcloak who recognised him.

[i6uuaq]

Ooo... wasn't really expecting an update today for some reason. Just popped by out of habit.

I'm wondering why they haven't tried sending to the two paladins yet. I thought that would have been the first thing to do on arrival. How long has it been since the last sending?

[Kantaki]

Belkar's realization at the end seems like it could indicate a huge step into the right direction. Also that he didn't follow up with a "Good thing I don't.".
Although, seeing that everyone tends to include yourself, is caring about others truly required to avoid the "everybody dies" Option?

[Schroeswald]

Ooo... wasn't really expecting an update today for some reason. Just popped by out of habit.

I'm wondering why they haven't tried sending to the two paladins yet. I thought that would have been the first thing to do on arrival. How long has it been since the last sending?

I don't think he's ever posted on a weekend (and he definitely hasn't since I started reading), so I'm lucky I was doing a binge of the history of the MitD thread and noticed his tweet.

Also, dumb joke incoming: V and Haley had to do some social distancing during the spy mission (I know I know, I'll go crawl into that hole now).

[faustin]

I wonder how many times a GM have to tell players "No, you cannot solve this by murdering others or blowing up things" just for them to look at him like he would have grown a second nose.

[Kamunami]

Ah, the shell game conversation from It Takes a Thief, glad to hear that's still remembered. It's a personal favorite of mine and one I use for other subjects quite a bit.

[Draconi Redfir]

so you think this means that team evil already searched around and under the dwarf statue? That seemed to be the common fan-theory of where the gate really was.

[The MunchKING]

I wonder how many times a GM have to tell players "No, you cannot solve this by murdering others or blowing up things" just for them to look at him like he would have grown a second nose.

"Sounds like an amazing lack of creativity on your part then."

:p

[Ronan]

I love new Belkar ^^

[hamishspence]

Roy doesn't even glare at him in the last panel. Maybe he gets that Belkar's trying.

[Peelee]

I wonder how many times a GM have to tell players "No, you cannot solve this by murdering others or blowing up things" just for them to look at him like he would have grown a second nose.
Imean, I let em. But i also let 'em know they have to deal with the consequences afterwards. Makes it a less attractive option.

so you think this means that team evil already searched around and under the dwarf statue? That seemed to be the common fan-theory of where the gate really was.

And debunking it is a common fan-pasttime. :smalltongue:

[Kantaki]

Roy doesn't even glare at him in the last panel. Maybe he gets that Belkar's trying.

I think it's two things at play here.
First Roy knows Belkar's clock is running out, so as long as the halfling isn'tt being disruptive/hurting people he lets him be.
And second Belkar's genuinely thoughtful and after the vampire debacle Roy might be a bit more receptive to what he is saying.

Both leading to Roy being more patient with Belkar, allowing him to see that Belkar is having a genuine realization, not setting up some joke.

[woweedd]

Heh, I'm liking new, "genuinely trying" Belkar.

[bunsen_h]

Heh, I'm liking new, "genuinely trying" Belkar.

Oh, he's always been genuinely trying. Just not in the same way.

[trtl]

WHAT?!? Ridiculous, of course Xykon will remember you. Who could forget about Ralph Greensword?!?:smallsmile:

[Hiro Quester]

"limited strategic options" makes challenges more challenging and makes for a better story, when the murderhobos PCs have to solve problems in unusual ways that don't involve just killing people and taking their stuff.

"get creative to think inside the box". Brilliant line.

[Vrock Bait]

Didn’t they technically blow up the gate all three previous times?

[Schroeswald]

Didn’t they technically blow up the gate all three previous times?

Yes, but they defeated Xykon before that the first time.

[Fyraltari]

I hope that this will put the ‘the Gate isn’t under the statue’ guesses to rest but I know it won’t. Also lovely interactions between our heroes there.

[DaOldeWolf]

Everything seems fine so far. It makes me wonder if the negative aspects of their mission has to do with the disappearance of Lien and O chul.

[Grey Watcher]

Sometimes I feel like "Caring about the lives of other people really limits one's strategic options" needs to be on a banner in every gaming space.

[Kantaki]

I hope that this will put the ‘the Gate isn’t under the statue’ guesses to rest but I know it won’t. Also lovely interactions between our heroes there.

Of course it isn't under the statue. One of Xykon, Redcloak or the MitD (If he thinks it makes them waste time) probably suggested to check.:smalltongue:
You might want an is there.

[Tarthalion]

Everything seems fine so far. It makes me wonder if the negative aspects of their mission has to do with the disappearance of Lien and O chul.
Probably they will only note that they have been unable to find and contact them.

[Peelee]

Oh, he's always been genuinely trying. Just not in the same way.

I don't think I'll ever tire of that joke on early-Belkar.

[understatement]

Great comic!

So how in the living world is Roy going to plan the attack?

[The Pilgrim]

Caring about other people's lives is always the main weak point of the Good Guys. That's why the villiain usually takes hostages sooner or later.

What I wonder is the lack of concern in the Order about the fact that they lose contact from the Paladins.

[Eragon123]

What I wonder is the lack of concern in the Order about the fact that they lose contact from the Paladins.

Them losing contact is probably what is motivating the need for scouting. If the paladins were they they would likely rendezvous first.

[Sniccups]

Ah, the shell game conversation from It Takes a Thief, glad to hear that's still remembered. It's a personal favorite of mine and one I use for other subjects quite a bit.

From what?

[Kantaki]

From what?

There. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html)
During the battle for Gobbotopia.

[Peelee]

From what?

Title instead of number (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html).

[Fyraltari]

From what?
... to know one. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html)


Edit: So many ninjas... I knew I shouldn’t have borrowed from a Japanese loan shark.

[Xlsfd]

Didn’t they technically blow up the gate all three previous times?

Well, they blew up Dorukan's Gate and Girard's Gate, but Soon's Gate was blown up by Miko Miyazaki.

[Peelee]

... to know one. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html)


Edit: So many ninjas... I knew I shouldn’t have borrowed from a Japanese loan shark.

I prefer to work for Azurites. :smalltongue:

[Ron Miel]

Two questions:

1) How was the first time a fluke? Roy beat up Xykon with his bare hands and threw him into the gate, which destroyed his body

2) Do the enemy really know that the world will end if they blow up the gate? Why does Roy even think they know?

[Peelee]

Two questions:

1) How was the first time a fluke? Roy beat up Xykon with his bare hands and threw him into the gate, which destroyed his body

2) Do the enemy really know that the world will end if they blow up the gate? Why does Roy even think they know?

1.) Dorukans gate had special wards that destroyed the body. None of the other Gates have them.

2.) Roy heard from the Godsmoot that the gods will pull the plug in that case. And, given that Redcloak is a cleric actively involved in the Gates, he probably knows most of the stuff about them,and how the gods would react.

[Fyraltari]

1.) Dorukans gate had special wards that destroyed the body. None of the other Gates have them.

2.) Roy heard from the Godsmoot that the gods will pull the plug in that case. And, given that Redcloak is a cleric actively involved in the Gates, he probably knows most of the stuff about them,and how the gods would react.

Even if he doesn’t, the simple fact that he is trying to harness the Snarl’s power means he can figure out what would happen if it was ever set free.

[Ron Miel]

2.) Roy heard from the Godsmoot that the gods will pull the plug in that case. And, given that Redcloak is a cleric actively involved in the Gates, he probably knows most of the stuff about them,and how the gods would react.

The Godsmoot was held in secret, not generally known. Redcloak wasn't at the Moot. And the other gods haven't been able to contact The Dark One. TDO Doesn't know, therefore Redcloak doesn't know.

[Peelee]

The Godsmoot was held in secret, not generally known. Redcloak wasn't at the Moot. And the other gods haven't been able to contact The Dark One. TDO Doesn't know, therefore Redcloak doesn't know.

Redcloak wasn't at the Northern one. And Roy doesn't know which God Reddie serves to begin with or what the other gods relationship is with them unless Durkon told him, at which point he would also know that TDO don't care. And the goblin god is, well, a god, and presumably knows what happens if the Gates go.

[factotum]

Redcloak has explicitly said that plan B (if the "blackmail the Gods" plan fails) is to allow the world to be destroyed, on the assumption the Dark One will be directly involved with the creation of the new world and will provide a better place for goblinoids within it. So, he's fully aware that destruction of the world is a possible outcome of what he's doing. What he and the Dark One most likely do *not* know is the whole thing about the Dark One maybe not surviving long enough to reach the next world due to not having enough faith saved up.

[Peelee]

Redcloak has explicitly said that plan B (if the "blackmail the Gods" plan fails) is to allow the world to be destroyed, on the assumption the Dark One will be directly involved with the creation of the new world and will provide a better place for goblinoids within it. So, he's fully aware that destruction of the world is a possible outcome of what he's doing.

Yes, but there no reason to suspect Roy knows any of that.

[Lkctgo]

Still unsure why O'Chul and Lien didn't say anything about the marked doors (or the fact that the MitD was marking them incorrectly). That was obviously important tactical knowledge (as O'Chul should have known) to be shared in any Sending Spell.

[Peelee]

Still unsure why O'Chul and Lien didn't say anything about the marked doors (or the fact that the MitD was marking them incorrectly). That was obviously important tactical knowledge (as O'Chul should have known) to be shared in any Sending Spell.

They have 25 words which they can only say in direct reply to someone else contacting them.

[Linneris]

So the possibility that the Gate is not behind any of the doors is finally discussed in-story. Interesting, interesting.

[gerryq]

Ooo... wasn't really expecting an update today for some reason. Just popped by out of habit.

I'm wondering why they haven't tried sending to the two paladins yet. I thought that would have been the first thing to do on arrival. How long has it been since the last sending?


Belkar's realization at the end seems like it could indicate a huge step into the right direction. Also that he didn't follow up with a "Good thing I don't.".
Although, seeing that everyone tends to include yourself, is caring about others truly required to avoid the "everybody dies" Option?


We can only hope that if we ever make a superintelligent AI, it runs through these logics fast.

[gerryq]

I don't think he's ever posted on a weekend (and he definitely hasn't since I started reading), so I'm lucky I was doing a binge of the history of the MitD thread and noticed his tweet.

Also, dumb joke incoming: V and Haley had to do some social distancing during the spy mission (I know I know, I'll go crawl into that hole now).


Nearly sure I've seen one or two on a Sunday morning (probably late Saturday night for Rich). I could be wrong though.

[Petrocorus]

So the possibility that the Gate is not behind any of the doors is finally discussed in-story. Interesting, interesting.
And apparently rules out.
Though there is still the possibility that the gate is not in the chasm at all, nor under the statue, but somewhere else in proximity.

[gatemansgc]

Ooo... wasn't really expecting an update today for some reason. Just popped by out of habit.

I'm wondering why they haven't tried sending to the two paladins yet. I thought that would have been the first thing to do on arrival. How long has it been since the last sending?

same, whenever i open firefox i open this, wikipedia, and reddit so that they're always at the top of that speed dial page and i saw a link to a comic that was dark rather than light and i was like, wut? weekend update? since when?????

[Schroeswald]

Nearly sure I've seen one or two on a Sunday morning (probably late Saturday night for Rich). I could be wrong though.

Its completely possible, you've been reading for at least seven more years than me, but I believe that one time I checked the comic for 2019 and found none released on weekends, and a handful of the hundreds of comics released since 2012 does make weekend releases real uncommon (not complaining tho, I get OOtS two days earlier than expected!)

[The Pilgrim]

Them losing contact is probably what is motivating the need for scouting. If the paladins were they they would likely rendezvous first.

Of course. But eight pages in, and they haven't even mentioned it, yet. I would have expected them to be a little more distressed by the issue.

[Blatt]

Looks like a coronavirus inspired strip, "safety inside the box". Also, the Giant is making them faster than normal, I'm guessing lockdown.

[Quirk]

Looks like a coronavirus inspired strip, "safety inside the box". Also, the Giant is making them faster than normal, I'm guessing lockdown.

What Belkar said last looks even more like it: Isn't limiting our strategic options by staying at home exactly what wea all do right now because we care about the lives of other people?

[JumboWheat01]

You thought that I remember those who foiled my evil plans. For them, it was a high point in their career. For me, it was a Tuesday.

Wait, maybe it was a Wednesday.

[Fyraltari]

You thought that I remember those who foiled my evil plans. For them, it was a high point in their career. For me, it was a Tuesday.

Wait, maybe it was a Wednesday.

Was it laundry day? It had something to do with laundry day.

[Kantaki]

Was it laundry day? It had something to do with laundry day.

It was something with day in it.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Liked the subtle poke at the "rift is in the statue" theories. :smalltongue: This strip also had a great last panel.

[KorvinStarmast]

I wonder how many times a GM have to tell players "No, you cannot solve this by murdering others or blowing up things" just for them to look at him like he would have grown a second nose. As often as he/she has patience for.

Ah, the shell game conversation from It Takes a Thief, glad to hear that's still remembered. Yeah. If yer gonna steal, steal from the classics. :smallsmile:
Who could forget about Ralph Greensword?!?:smallsmile: Or even Ray Grainhold. The farmer.

Sometimes I feel like "Caring about the lives of other people really limits one's strategic options" needs to be on a banner in every gaming space. Depends on the game.
Caring about other people's lives is always the main weak point of the Good Guys. That's why the villiain usually takes hostages sooner or later. That's the trope, anyway.

And, given that Redcloak is a cleric actively involved in the Gates, he probably knows most of the stuff about them,and how the gods would react. Nope. You are meta-gaming here. :smallwink: In-world, Greenie knows a bit less than you (the reader) do.

[Peelee]

Nope. You are meta-gaming here. :smallwink: In-world, Greenie knows a bit less than you (the reader) do.

Not going based off what the reader knows. Going at what Roy knows, or might believe. And Roy knows even less than Reddie. :smalltongue:

[danielxcutter]

I mean, even Xykon probably knows that blowing up the last Gate will let the Snarl free. He mentioned that he “wouldn’t destroy the world unless he gets *real* bored during his second “fight” with Roy, so he likely knows that.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Two questions:

1) How was the first time a fluke? Roy beat up Xykon with his bare hands and threw him into the gate, which destroyed his body

2) Do the enemy really know that the world will end if they blow up the gate? Why does Roy even think they know?

Xykon wasn't taking the fight seriously and was just playing around. Roy understands this after Xykon started to get serious.

It's like... Spider-Man could murder most of his enemies with one punch, he doesn't, so sometimes they capture/give him the slip.

[Grey Watcher]

Depends on the game.

All I know is that in nearly every "livestream a D&D game" I've ever seen, "kill the child" is a solution that gets suggested way, way too readily.

[Lombard]

In panel 1 it is interesting to me how the whole area map looks kind of like a drawing of a gate.

I tried to figure out something else as follow up to that observation, but that's all I got heh.

[TheNecrocomicon]

My instinct with the latest strip is that the characters are so adamantly insisting that the Gate must be behind one of those doors that, by unspoken dramatic convention, things are not going to turn out that way.

Remember that in the arc showing what Team Evil were up to midway through the previous book, Redcloak conspicuously remarks that the whole area was built up out of multidimensional stone. In the recollections of the Scribblers taking on the final Rift, it was located at ground level, and as far as we can tell, no mundane physical force can move them (even though they can and do expand without a Gate to hold them shut).

Seems to me that the Gate is probably sealed deep underground -- EDIT: entombed, maybe? Too appropriate -- surrounded by a thick enough layer of the magically-formed stone to block divination magic, and that none of the doors and passages lead to it at all. That said, I would think there would be some suitably cryptic surface-level marker to denote where the Gate now sits deep underground, and so the only unique thing that dates from the Tomb's construction (that isn't a door or a passageway) is the statue of Kraagor.

[danielxcutter]

I wouldn’t be surprised if there wasn’t even a proper entrance to the Gate without literally tearing a mountain’s worth of stone out, though.

[Edric O]

Hmmm... This seems too easy. I expect a trap of some kind. There's no way Redcloak hasn't planned for the possibility that Greenhilt survived.

[Rizzer]

The strip title sounds like a reference to something, "Move Slow and Preserve Things". I can't catch the reference though, can anyone pick it?

[trtl]

The strip title sounds like a reference to something, "Move Slow and Preserve Things". I can't catch the reference though, can anyone pick it?

"Move fast and break things. Unless you are breaking stuff, you are not moving fast enough."

-Mark Zuckerberg

[Rizzer]

"Move fast and break things. Unless you are breaking stuff, you are not moving fast enough."

-Mark Zuckerberg

Ah, thanks. I see it now. I figured it would be something like that.

[drazen]

so you think this means that team evil already searched around and under the dwarf statue? That seemed to be the common fan-theory of where the gate really was.

My theory is that the statue has the same lead shielding as Girard's Gate. Serini and Gerard were on friendly terms, she's a rogue (deception likely), and the crayons of time drawings show a gate being sealed at ground level.

Haley says they likely searched the CHASM. She never says they searched the VILLAGE. Xykon would be uninterested in the villagers as anything other than mooks. Redcloak would want to keep Xykon from zapping them all. And MITD would want to keep them distracted if he figured it out.

It would be extremely easy for a rogue to reverse the latitude and longitude in her diary near the polar cap and then just never tell anyone ever. Even when Xykon teleported to Girard's Gate, he was a couple hundred meters off at least. And Xykon did not know the exact location of the Gate in Azure City, either, until he scryed on Miko.

My secondary theory is that it's a Harry Potter ending. The invisible creatures from the end of book 6 are a living Horcrux, er, Gate. Would put a different spin on "existing" being "fun while it lasted."

[Lord Torath]

Regarding Roy's knowledge of Redcloak's knowledge, Redcloak explained things pretty clearly to O'Chul during torture sessions/science experiments. There's no reason for O'Chul not to share those insights with the Order of the Stick and the Azurites when the CitD rescued him, so I think it's fair to assume Roy knows that Redcloak knows that this final gate can't be destroyed without dooming the world. Redcloak is currently okay with this option, as he hasn't had a chance for a heart-to-heart with Durkon, yet.

I, too, am concerned about their lack of reporting on the paladins. Maybe that'll come up in the next strip.

Thanks, Rich!

[Fyraltari]

It would be extremely easy for a rogue to reverse the latitude and longitude in her diary near the polar cap and then just never tell anyone ever. Even when Xykon teleported to Girard's Gate, he was a couple hundred meters off at least. And Xykon did not know the exact location of the Gate in Azure City, either, until he scryed on Miko.

why would she only lie about the position of one gate in her diary and not all 5? A couple hundred meters off is pretty impressive precision for coordiantes taken without satellites.

[Peelee]

My secondary theory is that it's a Harry Potter ending. The invisible creatures from the end of book 6 are a living Horcrux, er, Gate. Would put a different spin on "existing" being "fun while it lasted."

That was a terribly bad plan in Harry Potter, and would be even more so in Order of the Stick.

Like, Voldemort never considered, "aha, I will be immortal! Unless someone kills Nagini. Or an accident happens, and she dies. Or just old age, she's already pretty old and if there were a way to make her immortal if have done it myself already instead of doing this horcrux thing. Huh. Maybe a living creature is a really poor idea for a horcrux."

And that was just got his own life. A Gate holding a rift in the very fabric of reality? In a mortal being?

[drazen]

That was a terribly bad plan in Harry Potter, and would be even more so in Order of the Stick.

Like, Voldemort never considered, "aha, I will be immortal! Unless someone kills Nagini. Or an accident happens, and she dies. Or just old age, she's already pretty old and if there were a way to make her immortal if have done it myself already instead of doing this horcrux thing. Huh. Maybe a living creature is a really poor idea for a horcrux."

And that was just got his own life. A Gate holding a rift in the very fabric of reality? In a mortal being?

Less of a bad plan if the creatures at the northern gate are immortal. They're also invisible and never leave a remote area, and everyone who looks at the diary thinks the Gate is in the tomb.

[hroþila]

More and more people writing the name of the legendary Uí Ciúil clan as "O'Chul" these days.

[Fyraltari]

That was a terribly bad plan in Harry Potter, and would be even more so in Order of the Stick.

Like, Voldemort never considered, "aha, I will be immortal! Unless someone kills Nagini. Or an accident happens, and she dies. Or just old age, she's already pretty old and if there were a way to make her immortal if have done it myself already instead of doing this horcrux thing. Huh. Maybe a living creature is a really poor idea for a horcrux."

And that was just got his own life. A Gate holding a rift in the very fabric of reality? In a mortal being?

I always assumed that being a horcrux gave Nagini the same quasi-indestructability the other horcruxes have. Which would logically entail an immunity against ageing/wear-and-tear because otherwise the whole horcrux business is doomed to failure.

Not that Voldmeort was ever of the particularily clever kind, mind you.

[Mic_128]

Redcloak is currently okay with this option, as he hasn't had a chance for a heart-to-heart with Durkon, yet.

Huh. There's probably an obvious one, but any reason why Durkon can't contact Redcloak by Sending? Surely telling Redcloak that they know his true plan would get his attention.

[The MunchKING]

My secondary theory is that it's a Harry Potter ending. The invisible creatures from the end of book 6 are a living Horcrux, er, Gate. Would put a different spin on "existing" being "fun while it lasted."

The problem is Gates don't really work that way. They are literal barriers stopping a big hole in space-time, so ones that freely move around and do other stuff would leave the big hole unblocked.



I always assumed that being a horcrux gave Nagini the same quasi-indestructability the other horcruxes have. Which would logically entail an immunity against ageing/wear-and-tear because otherwise the whole horcrux business is doomed to failure.

Not that Voldmeort was ever of the particularily clever kind, mind you.

It was either that or, like Xykon, Volde just buffed his Horacruxes with every kind of Abjuration he could.

[Sniccups]

I always assumed that being a horcrux gave Nagini the same quasi-indestructability the other horcruxes have. Which would logically entail an immunity against ageing/wear-and-tear because otherwise the whole horcrux business is doomed to failure.

Not that Voldmeort was ever of the particularily clever kind, mind you.

I figured there was a reason the Sword of Gryffindor was involved.

[drazen]

The problem is Gates don't really work that way. They are literal barriers stopping a big hole in space-time, so ones that freely move around and do other stuff would leave the big hole unblocked.
.

Says who?

If Redcloak can shift the gate location with his special ritual... why wouldn't it be possible for a creature to have this as a magical ability?

[bunsen_h]

They have 25 words which they can only say in direct reply to someone else contacting them.

Seems to me that that would call for ending one of their messages with something like "More to say" -- better still, to have a pre-arranged 1-word signal with that meaning. It could even be done without wasting a word, say with a code like "if I tack 'ergleflobble' on to my last word, I need you to contact me again immediately; there's more that I need to tell you".

[Grey Watcher]

Seems to me that that would call for ending one of their messages with something like "More to say" -- better still, to have a pre-arranged 1-word signal with that meaning. It could even be done without wasting a word, say with a code like "if I tack 'ergleflobble' on to my last word, I need you to contact me again immediately; there's more that I need to tell you".

In fairness to O-Chul and Lien, they may not have had time (between debriefing and everything) to set up such a system beforehand and they didn't exactly realize they were about to be captured by some unknown force, so the specifics of how Xykon was being delayed didn't seem to be worth burning another of V's spell slots. Especially since it's not like V knows in advance if they'll need those spell slots for other things. Unlike Durkon, V can't turn those instances of Sending into something more useful (eg Cure Assorted Wounds), and even if they could, that's still one fewer level X spells they have to handle emergencies.



:vaarsuvius: Lien further indicated that Xykon and his allies seem to be indefinitely delayed by some facet of the dungeon design itself.
:roy: Did she say how?
:vaarsuvius: She did not. I do have an additional casting of Sending prepared. Would you like me to expend it to gather more information on this topic?
:roy: Hmmm.... No. The two of them seem safe enough for the moment, so I'm sure they can fill us in when we get there. Better save that spell in case something happens on the way and we get separated.
:vaarsuvius: We remain at significant altitude over lands devoid of nearly all civilization and significant animal life and there are no indications of weather more severe than that with which we have already dealt. Surely there is no need for-
:roy: Come on, Vaarsuvius. We've been at this long enough to know that things can go badly at any time. No matter how little sense it makes.

[Viridian]

The strip title sounds like a reference to something, "Move Slow and Preserve Things". I can't catch the reference though, can anyone pick it?

I'm pretty sure it's an inverse reference to Mark Zuckerberg's infamous saying, "Move fast and break things."

[Ruck]

Huh. There's probably an obvious one, but any reason why Durkon can't contact Redcloak by Sending? Surely telling Redcloak that they know his true plan would get his attention.

It would certainly get his attention, but far more likely in the sense to get Redcloak to prepare Team Evil for the Order's imminent arrival.

[Peelee]

Less of a bad plan if the creatures at the northern gate are immortal. They're also invisible and never leave a remote area, and everyone who looks at the diary thinks the Gate is in the tomb.
Fair. That requires a lot more assumptions, though, and I'm a fan of fewer assumptions necessary for theories to work.

I always assumed that being a horcrux gave Nagini the same quasi-indestructability the other horcruxes have. Which would logically entail an immunity against ageing/wear-and-tear because otherwise the whole horcrux business is doomed to failure.

Not that Voldmeort was ever of the particularily clever kind, mind you.
I'll cop to not knowing terribly much on the Garry Potter front. Never bothered to read the last book or see the movie, and I still get annoyed at the entire plot of the tournament one.

Seems to me that that would call for ending one of their messages with something like "More to say" -- better still, to have a pre-arranged 1-word signal with that meaning. It could even be done without wasting a word, say with a code like "if I tack 'ergleflobble' on to my last word, I need you to contact me again immediately; there's more that I need to tell you".
Normally I'd try to think of something witty to say, but you dropped the, "ergleflobble" bomb discreetly in there and now I'm concerned. You can tell me, it's safe!

[Johndoe_142857]

Good page. :smallsmile:

[vonBoomslang]

I think my favorite aspect of this is Roy's expression at the very end. Not anger at Belkar, no self-righteous "yeah, this is the **** us non-evils have to deal with daily", just a sympathetic admission that, yeah, it be like that.

[Stepfan]

As someone who has been reading for a decade now, Belekar's redemption for want of a better term has been great. Also I'm going to cry when he dies now... stupid well written comic.

[Hopeless]

Just a thought but what if Serini had whatever was dug out of that gorge levitated far above literally above the clouds and those coordinates only make sense once you know it's up there?

[jokem]

Mind Blank would have blocked divination spells like True Seeing, right? Means they could have gotten a closer look, although X has a pretty good perception check.

[Peelee]

Mind Blank would have blocked divination spells like True Seeing, right? Means they could have gotten a closer look, although X has a pretty good perception check.

Mind Blank affects mind-affecting effects. True Seeing is not mind-affecting.

[catagent101]

Mind Blank would have blocked divination spells like True Seeing, right? Means they could have gotten a closer look, although X has a pretty good perception check.

It depends on who you are asking. As written, true seeing is a divination spell and since mind blank blocks "information gathering by divination spells or effects" about the target, it would work. However, what is less clear is whether it was intended to work that way, as the text mostly mentions blocking scrying. Since psionic mind blank explicitly only protects against mind-affecting and scrying effects, that may have been the intention for mind blank as well. So it depends on exactly how you interpret how the spell is supposed to work. It's not exactly well-written. Pathfinder explicitly says mind blank blocks see invisibility and thus we can assume true seeing as well, although the spell was also nerfed in regards to its protection against mind-affecting effects so make of that what you will.

Regardless, we don't know whether Haley or V had mind blank on at the time, nor whether V even prepared it, so it's a bit of a moot point. Roy only mentions that bringing Belkar along would have meant one more fly and one more invisibility so probably not.

[danielxcutter]

Unless V got a pearl of power VIII or a stronger headband of intellect, they probably don’t even have the slots to prepare three mind blanks anyways.

[CriticalFailure]

My instinct with the latest strip is that the characters are so adamantly insisting that the Gate must be behind one of those doors that, by unspoken dramatic convention, things are not going to turn out that way.

Remember that in the arc showing what Team Evil were up to midway through the previous book, Redcloak conspicuously remarks that the whole area was built up out of multidimensional stone. In the recollections of the Scribblers taking on the final Rift, it was located at ground level, and as far as we can tell, no mundane physical force can move them (even though they can and do expand without a Gate to hold them shut).

Seems to me that the Gate is probably sealed deep underground -- EDIT: entombed, maybe? Too appropriate -- surrounded by a thick enough layer of the magically-formed stone to block divination magic, and that none of the doors and passages lead to it at all. That said, I would think there would be some suitably cryptic surface-level marker to denote where the Gate now sits deep underground, and so the only unique thing that dates from the Tomb's construction (that isn't a door or a passageway) is the statue of Kraagor.

Yeah, this is my theory as well. They went out of their way to include the technical exposition that the whole thing was made of extradimensional stone and being completely entombed is much harder to deal with than it being under the statue. Plus then they have to break it down without releasing the beasties.

[factotum]

Like, Voldemort never considered, "aha, I will be immortal! Unless someone kills Nagini. Or an accident happens, and she dies. Or just old age, she's already pretty old and if there were a way to make her immortal if have done it myself already instead of doing this horcrux thing. Huh. Maybe a living creature is a really poor idea for a horcrux."


I may be wrong, but wasn't the whole point of the horcrux thing that Voldemort could only be killed if *all* of his horcruxes were destroyed? Seems to me that setting up a system where people have seven or eight independent methods of killing you that don't even require you to be present would be even dafter than you're saying his plan was anyway.

[Peelee]

I may be wrong, but wasn't the whole point of the horcrux thing that Voldemort could only be killed if *all* of his horcruxes were destroyed?

If one of the horcruxes is a wet cardboard box, why even bother making into a horcrux, is my point. Choose something durable, not something that is going to be destroyed regardless.

[Jannoire]

Volde had multiple durable and well hidden horcruxes. He just needed another (because 7) and chose something that would always be at his side without anybody questioning it

Edit: Now that the Order said, that the gate won't be under the statue, I'm completely assured that that's the case. Because drama and such things...

[Quebbster]

It's also Worth noting that Voldemort made Nagini into a Horcrux while on the run in Albania, Before he got his body back. Presumably he didn't have any major magical artifacts lying around and perhaps he felt a Horcrux that could move on its own could be useful at that Point. He probably wanted a seventh Horcrux Before starting his rebirth plan anyway.

[Jannoire]

He probably wanted a seventh Horcrux Before starting his rebirth plan anyway.

I know it's of topic, but this is a pet peeve of mine...
He never intended to create seven horcruxes. He wanted to make SIX, because he wanted to have his soul split into SEVEN pieces.

[KorvinStarmast]

All I know is that in nearly every "livestream a D&D game" I've ever seen, "kill the child" is a solution that gets suggested way, way too readily. DM's and adventure writers hiding demons in children is the root cause of the problem.

Unlike Durkon, V can't turn those instances of Sending into something more useful (eg Cure Assorted Wounds), and even if they could, that's still one fewer level X spells they have to handle emergencies. A fair point.

[Quebbster]

I know it's of topic, but this is a pet peeve of mine...
He never intended to create seven horcruxes. He wanted to make SIX, because he wanted to have his soul split into SEVEN pieces.

My Point was that he was still one short, or at least thought he was. I may have lost track of the exact numbers though.

[Schroeswald]

My Point was that he was still one short, or at least thought he was. I may have lost track of the exact numbers though.

He thought he only had six but he had seven soul bits, his soul consisted of him (1), his diary (2), the ring (3), the diadem (4), the locket (5), the cup (6)and unbeknownst to him, Harry (7), but since he didn't know about Harry he added Nagini, making his soul eight pieces but with seven horcruxes. Though iirc it was pretty confusing about how many he wanted, and I believe first time I read it I was under the assumption they needed to destroy seven and then kill him.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's also Worth noting that Voldemort made Nagini into a Horcrux while on the run in Albania, Before he got his body back. Presumably he didn't have any major magical artifacts lying around and perhaps he felt a Horcrux that could move on its own could be useful at that Point. He probably wanted a seventh Horcrux Before starting his rebirth plan anyway.

Nope, he made Nagini into a Horcrux while squatting on his Dad's estate. Murdered---the groundskeeper, I think it was. Evidence is that he wanted to find and corrupt the Sword, but he didn't know you don't find the Sword, the Sword finds you.

[Schroeswald]

Nope, he made Nagini into a Horcrux while squatting on his Dad's estate. Murdered---the groundskeeper, I think it was. Evidence is that he wanted to find and corrupt the Sword, but he didn't know you don't find the Sword, the Sword finds you.

The sword did find several of his soul bits though :smalltongue:

In case you want to know which ones, it destroyed the ring, the locket and Nagini, it revealed itself to Harry and it got very close to the diary.

[bunsen_h]

If one of the horcruxes is a wet cardboard box, why even bother making into a horcrux, is my point. Choose something durable, not something that is going to be destroyed regardless.

"I'm gonna do a murder, might as well get a bonus out of it, just for kicks." Xykon has done any number of thoroughly Evil things, just because. Of course, Voldemort isn't Xykon, but still.

Voldie did get some use out of having Nagini relatively intelligent and controllable. Though having looked her up in the Potter wiki (https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Nagini), I see that she's got a lot of history I hadn't heard about -- among other things, she used to be a human.

[Schroeswald]

"I'm gonna do a murder, might as well get a bonus out of it, just for kicks." Xykon has done any number of thoroughly Evil things, just because. Of course, Voldemort isn't Xykon, but still.

Voldie did get some use out of having Nagini relatively intelligent and controllable. Though having looked her up in the Potter wiki (https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Nagini), I see that she's got a lot of history I hadn't heard about -- among other things, she used to be a human.
I prefer to ignore that little bit of canon, along with most Harry Potter things outside of the seven books.

[Peelee]

"I'm gonna do a murder, might as well get a bonus out of it, just for kicks." Xykon has done any number of thoroughly Evil things, just because.

I'm talking about the intelligence of it, not the evilness. Xykon didn't make a living being who could already die his phylactery, after all.

[bunsen_h]

Normally I'd try to think of something witty to say, but you dropped the, "ergleflobble" bomb discreetly in there and now I'm concerned. You can tell me, it's safe!

"Ah, this is obviously some strange usage of the word 'safe' that I wasn't previously aware of." -- Arthur Dent


I'm talking about the intelligence of it, not the evilness. Xykon didn't make a living being who could already die his phylactery, after all.

Sure, but Xykon's phylactery is unique, and needs to be carefully protected; its destruction would be disastrous, from his point of view. Using Voldie's model, the more splits, the better. If a damp cardboard box would sit around, ignored, because everyone assumed that he would only choose really significant items, that would be to his benefit. Obviously, he didn't have that level of self-awareness, but it's not a completely stupid premise.

[KorvinStarmast]

Using Voldie's model, the more splits, the better. :smallfrown: it's a bad sign that this discussion has wandered into the drek that is the HP series. :smallfrown:

It occurs to me that as V and Haley look at the x's on the doors to the caves, they are being taken in by the MiTD's deception as well.

[Zarhan]

In panel 1 it is interesting to me how the whole area map looks kind of like a drawing of a gate.

I tried to figure out something else as follow up to that observation, but that's all I got heh.

I'll follow that thread for you.

The gate is huge, as in the size of the entire area. And horizontal.

We have had several different gate sizes, from small to big:

Soon's gate in Azure city: Size of a single emerald.
Lirian's gate in the woods: Medium/Large-sized.
Girard's gate in the desert: Huge-sized (You can see the Order and Laurin & others standing right next to it. It's larger than them, but not overwhelmingly large.).
Dorukan's gate in starter dungeon: Colossal sized. (Strip #96 shows the scale nicely, with Redcloak and Xykon right next to the gate). Several stories high at least.

=> Conclusion: Serini's/Kraagor's gate is the size of the entire area, several hundred yards. They just have to get rid of bunch of rock (that blocks divinations) first.

The problem with this theory is of course that the crayons in #276 clearly show the Lirian's gate. However, it also depicts Kraagor's rift to be about the same size as well. Then again, crayons are not meant to be completely reliable, and also, the relation between gate size and rift size is not completely clear. Maybe Kraagor's normal-sized rift in the crayon drawing would have just required a larger gate?

Start of Darkness seems to confirm the Lirian gate size is accurate.

[The MunchKING]

Using Voldie's model, the more splits, the better.

I thought he wanted 7 Soul chunks because 7 was a number of power in magic/folklore and he thought it would confer mystic benefits.

Given how at 7 his soul was already fragmenting so much that it was splitting even when he didn't mean for it to, any more splitting would have probably made him soulless. Like in a very literal sense.

[Lord Torath]

Just a thought but what if Serini had whatever was dug out of that gorge levitated far above literally above the clouds and those coordinates only make sense once you know it's up there?Nope. Can't move a rift at all, unless it's still sealed with a gate and you have your cleric perform a particular and particularly complex ritual with an arcane spellcaster and you happen to be The Dark One. That's why the Azure City Throne was built where it is (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html).

[danielxcutter]

Personally, I don’t think it’ll only end with “finding the right door” - a being (or group of beings) is strong enough to get through the door with the strongest monsters, all that stands in their way is time. And while Shojo did say that this Gate was made to represent Kraagor’s brute strength... we don’t even know if he was a Thog-level “no brains all brawn” guy. I mean, he spoke in proper grammar, though it was in bold text - perhaps just a slight Int penalty? And Barbarians *can* do some tactics that aren’t just “smash”... I dunno.

[factotum]

I'll follow that thread for you.

The gate is huge, as in the size of the entire area. And horizontal.

Dorukan's gate in starter dungeon: Colossal sized. (Strip #96 shows the scale nicely, with Redcloak and Xykon right next to the gate). Several stories high at least.

=> Conclusion: Serini's/Kraagor's gate is the size of the entire area, several hundred yards. They just have to get rid of bunch of rock (that blocks divinations) first.

The problem with this theory is of course that the crayons in #276 clearly show the Lirian's gate.

The bigger problem with that theory is that Hinjo says in strip #411 that the breach in the Redmountain Hills (e.g. Dorukan's Rift) was the largest of the five.

[Quebbster]

Nope, he made Nagini into a Horcrux while squatting on his Dad's estate. Murdered---the groundskeeper, I think it was. Evidence is that he wanted to find and corrupt the Sword, but he didn't know you don't find the Sword, the Sword finds you.

J.K. Rowling disagress. (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2007/7/30/j-k-rowling-web-chat-transcript/) According to her, Nagini was made a Horcrux when Voldemort killed Bertha Jorkins in Albania.
I do agree that he probably would have prefered a Gryffindor relic as a Horcrux originally though.

[hamishspence]

I did wonder how much of a gap there can be between "killing someone" and "making use of their murder to create a Horcrux"

Since, when he talks to Slughorn, he's already killed both Myrtle and his father, and he's asking Slughorn about the whole "multiple horcruxes" thing - implying he hasn't yet made his second Horcrux. That said, it could be a case of wanting to know somewhat after the fact -

"I've made multiple horcruxes - is anything odd going to happen, like losing my nose or something"

without coming out and saying so outright.

[Zarhan]

The bigger problem with that theory is that Hinjo says in strip #411 that the breach in the Redmountain Hills (e.g. Dorukan's Rift) was the largest of the five.

Ok, missed that one. So much for that then :)

[Bacon Elemental]

I havent followed the various gate discussions, but has the possibility that (since this gate was out of respect for Kraagor and his strength) that you actually *do* have to clear every single dungeon to reveal the Gate come up?

[bunsen_h]

I havent followed the various gate discussions, but has the possibility that (since this gate was out of respect for Kraagor and his strength) that you actually *do* have to clear every single dungeon to reveal the Gate come up?

Heh. And you have to do it by yourself, unaided. If someone helps you, you have to start over from the beginning. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: "AND... you must cut down the mightiest tree in the forest... WIIIITH... a HERRING (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WithThisHerring)!"

[The MunchKING]

I havent followed the various gate discussions, but has the possibility that (since this gate was out of respect for Kraagor and his strength) that you actually *do* have to clear every single dungeon to reveal the Gate come up?

That was the way I said I would have done it...

[KorvinStarmast]

That was the way I said I would have done it...... and it would doubtless make for earning more XP along the way, which is fine unless there is a time limit.

[RatElemental]

I've often said it would make sense if there was a hidden lever at the end of each door and flipping all of them opened a path to the gate.

[Seward]

Or it could be like some of the more evil MMORPG dungeon's I've encountered.

Multiple levers behind different doors that have to be all pulled simultaneously. Training people to do those missions was always a PITA even when you understood how it worked. The worst one I remember back from the dawn of time (Asheron's Call) had four sets of levers and 3 were in level-restricted dungeons with a tight (10 level) band.

You could always get plenty of the high level folks, but finding lower level characters with players skilled enough to do the dungeons was tricky. The one time I managed to get a large group through it, I was logged into 3 different sessions using my alternate characters to pull the low level levers, and had a deputy on the high level team to coordinate that run. That only worked because you could actually get to the levers by running past the monsters if you knew how to do that perfectly. I left a lot of corpses on the ground learning the routes (there were invisible teleporters all through the dungeon too....)

Although that is more of what I'd expect from the halfling rogue than from her barbarian friend.

[jokem]

Mind Blank affects mind-affecting effects. True Seeing is not mind-affecting.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm

This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects.

Maybe it only blocs scrying and such?

[jokem]

It depends on who you are asking. As written, true seeing is a divination spell and since mind blank blocks "information gathering by divination spells or effects" about the target, it would work. However, what is less clear is whether it was intended to work that way, as the text mostly mentions blocking scrying. Since psionic mind blank explicitly only protects against mind-affecting and scrying effects, that may have been the intention for mind blank as well. So it depends on exactly how you interpret how the spell is supposed to work. It's not exactly well-written. Pathfinder explicitly says mind blank blocks see invisibility and thus we can assume true seeing as well, although the spell was also nerfed in regards to its protection against mind-affecting effects so make of that what you will.

Regardless, we don't know whether Haley or V had mind blank on at the time, nor whether V even prepared it, so it's a bit of a moot point. Roy only mentions that bringing Belkar along would have meant one more fly and one more invisibility so probably not.

Since I am a PFS player, that is what I was thinking, but OOTS is not based on PFS

[jokem]

Unless V got a pearl of power VIII or a stronger headband of intellect, they probably don’t even have the slots to prepare three mind blanks anyways.

We know V can prepare it twice, who would be the third, the familiar?
Even then, the familiar can be left behind if needed.

[Seward]

Guys, regarding True Seeing.

It has a limited range (120 feet). V stated (in panel 6 of this strip) V believed they all were outside of the range of such spells during their scouting mission. Most spells like that have similar range with the only notable exception being See Invisible.

See Invisible is an arcane only spell that has line of sight range and might reveal them and Xykon didn't have it as recently as when V attacked him in Azure City. As an epic sorceror the only way he'd get another L2 spell is spending a feat, pretty unlikely to waste a feat on that. He could use a scroll but why would he just when the party happens to be scouting?

(I think V considered all of that before answering Roy's question. V certainly knows about See Invisible)

Mind Blank is irrelevant unless you think Redcloak or XyKon with his Crystal Teevo remembers any of them well enough to scry on them.

[Seward]

We know V can prepare it twice, who would be the third, the familiar?
Even then, the familiar can be left behind if needed.

Familiar shares spells with V as long as Familiar doesn't stray too far away, so wouldn't need an extra casting assuming V got Mind Blank today, which is likely. V probably didn't cast invisibility on the familiar either if they were trying to conserve spell slots.

OTOH, V thinks V's famliar is an idiot so might have cast invisibility on the familiar too, just to be safe.

[danielxcutter]

Guys, regarding True Seeing.

It has a limited range (120 feet). V stated V believed they all were outside of the range of such spells during their scouting mission. Most spells like that have similar range with the only notable exception being See Invisible.

See Invisible is an arcane only spell that has line of sight range and might reveal them and Xykon didn't have it as recently as when V attacked him in Azure City. As an epic sorceror the only way he'd get another L2 spell is spending a feat, pretty unlikely to waste a feat on that. He could use a scroll but why would he just when the party happens to be scouting?

(I think V considered all of that before answering Roy's question. V certainly knows about See Invisible)

Mind Blank is irrelevant unless you think Redcloak or XyKon with his Crystal Teevo remembers any of them well enough to scry on them.

Redcloak certainly remembers Roy’s surname and motivation, at least.

Actually, how DOES he know about Roy’s father? I thought Roy brought that up when fighting Xykon and the two were on a zombified silver dragon in the air. Maybe Xykon mentioned it later and forgot about it?

[Dentarthur]

Actually, how DOES he know about Roy’s father?

Redcloak was present for this speech in Dorukan's dungeon. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html)

[danielxcutter]

Redcloak was present for this speech in Dorukan's dungeon. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html)

Ah, I see. Seriously, though, if you killed more than one guy with a specific name in a specific place, I suppose the name alone would be insufficient.

[F.Harr]

Well, that does it for easy answers.

Has it struck anyone else that Roy's done pretty much why Xykon suggested he do way back when he died?

[hamishspence]

Roy hasn't exactly "trained for a few years".

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html

It's been barely a month since Roy was resurrected, maybe less, and Roy has spent all. that time trying to get to the next gate that Xykon's going to attack.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Hmmm... Roy's had what, fourteen encounters since he rezzed? How many levels does that come out to in 3.5 terms?

Only five since he just barely caught up to where he was before he died. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html), but I think some number fudging might be in order there.


Slavers bug caravan.
Bounty hunters' bar fight.
Thog, the thug, the champion.
Linear Guild aerial assault.
Ambush the linear guild.
Silicon (elemental) in the valley.
Tarquin's army.
Vector legion leadership.
Greg (one-on-one).
Roy steals Belkar's kill.
Frost giants' airship assault.
Surrounded by spawn.
The death of a Greg.
Wacking the worm.

[RatElemental]

Hmmm... Roy's had what, fourteen encounters since he rezzed? How many levels does that come out to in 3.5 terms?

Only five since he just barely caught up to where he was before he died. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html), but I think some number fudging might be in order there.


Slavers bug caravan.
Bounty hunters' bar fight.
Thog, the thug, the champion.
Linear Guild aerial assault.
Ambush the linear guild.
Silicon (elemental) in the valley.
Tarquin's army.
Vector legion leadership.
Greg (one-on-one).
Roy steals Belkar's kill.
Frost giants' airship assault.
Surrounded by spawn.
The death of a Greg.
Wacking the worm.



It's pretty flexible, really. You don't gain exp for killing creatures though, you gain it from defeating encounters.

[Rogar Demonblud]

So he probably got some for all the interaction encounters with the gnome temples.

[Mariele]

I havent followed the various gate discussions, but has the possibility that (since this gate was out of respect for Kraagor and his strength) that you actually *do* have to clear every single dungeon to reveal the Gate come up?
You know, I think this is actually my favorite gate theory. I've seen a lot, but I hadn't seen this one yet, and I really like it. Makes perfect sense. I'll bet on it because:

It's simple.
It doesn't require extra assumptions.
It's built around strength.
MITD's plan has effectively foiled them (or at least slowed them down enough so that they have to start all over again, which would start a confrontation with MITD and Team Evil is nearly out of time with the heroes around the corner, anyway).
It's still a bit of a twist without repeating Girard's gate or the shell game (we've been led to believe it's behind "one of" the doors so far, not "all of" the doors).
It's an effective plan for blocking the gate (if someone is strong enough to clear ALL of the dungeons and is that determined to cause the world's end, chances are you won't be able to do much to stop them, and all you can hope for is the other protectors being able to foil them somehow).


Yeah. I like it. The respawning monsters might have something to do with the multidimensional rock? I can't make much of a guess there because the most DnD I ever did was Neverwinter Nights :smallredface: (I was more of a WoW person!). There'd need to be some sort of surveillance in place to make sure someone actually goes through the entire dungeon. Better than having to flip a lever or something just because Team Evil never mentioned anything special in the dungeon and that would require an extra assumption. I feel like the rogue element from Serini should be in there somehow (aside from just being able to afford the massive dungeon), so maybe something to do with keeping track of the dungeon clears (maybe those invisible beings somehow? maybe that's what they're there for. but Xykon would probably see/sense them). I don't want to reach too far, but I do like this theory a lot.

[danielxcutter]

Minor nitpick irrelevant to the specific theory itself: "multidimensional rock" probably means it exists both on the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane at the same time, so being incorporeal doesn't let you phase through and bypass 99% of the challenges. You'd be surprised how many high-level monsters are perfectly helpless against a lowly CR 3 Allip (though the general opinion is that Allips are under-CRed anyways, so there's that).

[Fyraltari]

I’d like to know how the ‘you need to beat every song door to reach the gate’ would work in practice.

[danielxcutter]

I’d like to know how the ‘you need to beat every song door to reach the gate’ would work in practice.

Pretty simple actually; track whether they've killed all the monsters in each door at least once, then have the actual entrance open up when they have. It's probably hard for Team Evil, since Xykon is the only epic character and even he can't use more than one spell per round. Depending on the types and CR of the monsters, though, it actually might be easier for the Order, as there are not only more of them, but they're not as skewed towards one type of strength (in Team Evil's case, spells, especially Xykon's arcane spells).

[RatElemental]

Could be as simple as an actual mechanism that is activated at the end of each door, or as complex as having sentient invisible guardians keeping track.

I don't see what the point of having sentient invisible guardians would be if they can't exercise judgment in when to open the way, though. It'd be like installing a sapient AI in your front door and all it does is make the door open when someone turns the knob.

If the key is beating all the doors (which it probably isn't, as much sense as that would make) it's probably something in the middle. Some kind of magic trap or persistent spell at the end of each door that detects when you've managed to get there, and when all of them go off the final path opens. Or maybe a sigil you touch that sends you back to the entrance and also relays that it was touched. Could also just be a ton of golems programmed to leave to some central area if they see anyone and when enough are gathered they open the way. Really, with magic the sky's the limit.

[Fyraltari]

But why would you put in a mecanism that helps the bad guys?

[hroþila]

Yeah, that only works if the defenses were not defenses but merely a test. "You've proven yourself worthy, now do as you please with the Gate". Uh, I don't see it.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, that only works if the defenses were not defenses but merely a test. "You've proven yourself worthy, now do as you please with the Gate". Uh, I don't see it.

Well if it is "touch something at the end of each cavern"... wouldn't an epic rogue find it easier to sneak past?

I get that this isn't likely the case, but I sincerely doubt that this is as simple as it seems. "Raw strength" doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you realize that all the other Gates also had some seriously beefy defenses - Girard's Gate with an clan-cult of sorcerers (at least one could cast high-level spells like Shades, I think), Lirian had several forest creatures and a virus that works on virtually all spellcasters, Dorukan built a dungeon on top of his and also put a seal strong enough to destroy an epic lich, as well as Cloister, and Soon founded an entire city just to defend his. Note that except for Kraagor's Tomb and Girard's Gate, the epic-level defenders were still there in some fashion until Xykon came along.

[Mariele]

??? That's... no, not quite. It's not "You've proven yourself worthy, now do as you please with the Gate", it's "we made this the toughest, most impenetrable series of dungeons known to mankind, if you've managed to get through all of them, I probably didn't have any chance of stopping you any other way". And then there would STILL be four other gates to go through! Like Dorukan's test of pure heart. I mean, we could argue "you've proven yourself worthy, now do as you please with the Gate" for any of the defenses of any of the gates if you managed to destroy the defenses (like, say, leveling Azure City...). It's the best defense you could put up--and that's the strength in these gates, every guardian put up their own possible defense, knowing that for the Snarl to get out, someone would have to overcome all five. That's not "proving yourself worthy, have fun!", that's a worst-case scenario that would be nearly unpreventable. And if they manage to steamroll through it, did the original gate guardian have any better chance of stopping them? Let's not forget, this isn't a group of mid-level adventurers plundering dungeons for XP. This isn't even one epic level sorcerer. This is a group of high-level baddies who are determined to destroy this gate. That's not handing over the gate to anyone who wants to do a little dungeon crawling. It's a huge defense system.
ETA: Oh, and I'm not ruling out Serini still being there as another layer of defense. I didn't think that needed to be stated. How well defended was Lirian's gate if we take Lirian out of the picture? Or Dorukan's gate without Dorukan? I'm saying that I think that this is the gate's defense--this gate's version of "whole city built around", "series of illusions", "test of pure heart", (don't remember Lirian's). Which fits in with the description of the gate better--and makes it MUCH more securely guarded-- than than "well, it's going to be behind one of these doors", which is what the characters are assuming. You don't have the option of lucking out on the right door early on in your search.

[danielxcutter]

??? That's... no, not quite. It's not "You've proven yourself worthy, now do as you please with the Gate", it's "we made this the toughest, most impenetrable series of dungeons known to mankind, if you've managed to get through all of them, I probably didn't have any chance of stopping you any other way". And then there would STILL be four other gates to go through! Like Dorukan's test of pure heart. I mean, we could argue "you've proven yourself worthy, now do as you please with the Gate" for any of the defenses of any of the gates if you managed to destroy the defenses (like, say, leveling Azure City...). It's the best defense you could put up--and that's the strength in these gates, every guardian put up their own possible defense, knowing that for the Snarl to get out, someone would have to overcome all five. That's not "proving yourself worthy, have fun!", that's a worst-case scenario that would be nearly unpreventable. And if they manage to steamroll through it, did the original gate guardian have any better chance of stopping them? Let's not forget, this isn't a group of mid-level adventurers plundering dungeons for XP. This isn't even one epic level sorcerer. This is a group of high-level baddies who are determined to destroy this gate. That's not handing over the gate to anyone who wants to do a little dungeon crawling. It's a huge defense system.

To let the Snarl out, yes you'd need to nuke all five. To take control of a Gate, you only need one - that's why people have been blowing them up.

[Mariele]

True, I had forgotten to include that in the post since at this point the Snarl coming out is so much more likely :smalltongue: But it still doesn't change that this method of defense would hardly be "you did it, good job, here's your prize". I don't think this method of defense would be any easier than any of the other gate's. See my edited comment.

[danielxcutter]

True, I had forgotten to include that in the post since at this point the Snarl coming out is so much more likely :smalltongue: But it still doesn't change that this method of defense would hardly be "you did it, good job, here's your prize". I don't think this method of defense would be any easier than any of the other gate's. See my edited comment.

Dorukan's Gate was still guarded well enough by the seal that Xykon wasn't able to get around it, and he also put a self-destruct button just in case someone did manage to get through. Meanwhile, Soon was literally bound to his, so that doesn't count either.

[Ron Miel]

Yeah, that only works if the defenses were not defenses but merely a test. "You've proven yourself worthy, now do as you please with the Gate". Uh, I don't see it.


Don't you? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html)

[danielxcutter]

Don't you? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html)

Not going to lie, I thought that would be a MitD joke.

In b4 :mitd: What Gate?

[Mariele]

Dorukan's Gate was still guarded well enough by the seal that Xykon wasn't able to get around it, and he also put a self-destruct button just in case someone did manage to get through. Meanwhile, Soon was literally bound to his, so that doesn't count either.
Oh, sure. What about Lirian's gate? How do you feel about the defenses in that one?

Again, I never said that this would be the *only* defense. I simply said (or, er, thought I was expressing) that this was going to be the *main* one. Not hiding under the statue. Not picking the right door. Actually managing to clear every single dungeon. Who knows, maybe clearing all of them somehow triggers a passageway to the real gate and Serini's lurking there with a half million traps? The main drawback I can see to this is that whoever is clearing these dungeons can take it at their own pace, which you clearly couldn't if you were being attacked by the forest creatures, Girard's family, or Azure City's entire guard--but if that's a drawback, it could also be a benefit if that time spent was also used in sending for help. That hasn't happened so far as we know, but we also don't know who the invisible beings are or what Serini has up her sleeve. I don't like to assume too many things in my ideas, so I won't guess on that. I do think that there's another component to this--but completing all of the dungeons is the main component.

Edit: whoops, grammar

[bunsen_h]

But why would you put in a mecanism that helps the bad guys?

Do we know what Serini's alignment is/was?

[RatElemental]

While I do think clearing all the dungeons works as a defense and is only as much of a "good job here's your prize" thing as the defenses of any other gate, the purity of heart sigils from Dorukan's tomb had nothing to do with the gate in the basement. They just protected the amulet of outdated monsters.

I do kind of wonder how "You have to clear ALL the dungeons and then the path to the gate opens! Get cracking!" is 'helping the bad guys' while "The gate is behind ONE of these doors, get looking!" isn't. The best case scenario in the latter is that they pick the right door last and it's effectively exactly the same as the former, defense-wise.

[Fyraltari]

Well if it is "touch something at the end of each cavern"... wouldn't an epic rogue find it easier to sneak past?

I get that this isn't likely the case, but I sincerely doubt that this is as simple as it seems. "Raw strength" doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you realize that all the other Gates also had some seriously beefy defenses - Girard's Gate with an clan-cult of sorcerers (at least one could cast high-level spells like Shades, I think), Lirian had several forest creatures and a virus that works on virtually all spellcasters, Dorukan built a dungeon on top of his and also put a seal strong enough to destroy an epic lich, as well as Cloister, and Soon founded an entire city just to defend his. Note that except for Kraagor's Tomb and Girard's Gate, the epic-level defenders were still there in some fashion until Xykon came along.
Soon founded the Sapphire Guard not the City. He already worked for it before he discovered the Rifts.
Also I'm not sure what your point is exactly. All the Scribblers set up defenses yes. So did Serini. Also Girard was dead as doornail when his defenses were challenged. Meanwhile we were explicitly told that Serini decided to leave her Gate to go back to adventuring and that she was the only one to do so.

??? That's... no, not quite. It's not "You've proven yourself worthy, now do as you please with the Gate", it's "we made this the toughest, most impenetrable series of dungeons known to mankind, if you've managed to get through all of them, I probably didn't have any chance of stopping you any other way". And then there would STILL be four other gates to go through! Like Dorukan's test of pure heart. I mean, we could argue "you've proven yourself worthy, now do as you please with the Gate" for any of the defenses of any of the gates if you managed to destroy the defenses (like, say, leveling Azure City...). It's the best defense you could put up--and that's the strength in these gates, every guardian put up their own possible defense, knowing that for the Snarl to get out, someone would have to overcome all five. That's not "proving yourself worthy, have fun!", that's a worst-case scenario that would be nearly unpreventable. And if they manage to steamroll through it, did the original gate guardian have any better chance of stopping them? Let's not forget, this isn't a group of mid-level adventurers plundering dungeons for XP. This isn't even one epic level sorcerer. This is a group of high-level baddies who are determined to destroy this gate. That's not handing over the gate to anyone who wants to do a little dungeon crawling. It's a huge defense system.
ETA: Oh, and I'm not ruling out Serini still being there as another layer of defense. I didn't think that needed to be stated. How well defended was Lirian's gate if we take Lirian out of the picture? Or Dorukan's gate without Dorukan? I'm saying that I think that this is the gate's defense--this gate's version of "whole city built around", "series of illusions", "test of pure heart", (don't remember Lirian's). Which fits in with the description of the gate better--and makes it MUCH more securely guarded-- than than "well, it's going to be behind one of these doors", which is what the characters are assuming. You don't have the option of lucking out on the right door early on in your search.
But why would you do that? Whay would Serini buid a mecanism that rewards whoever gets past her defenses, what's the point?
"we could argue "you've proven yourself worthy, now do as you please with the Gate" for any of the defenses of any of the gates if you managed to destroy the defenses (like, say, leveling Azure City...)" No we couldn't. Each of the defenses we've seen was made to stop or dealy the attackers, the only "proof of worthiness" would have been to kill everybody protecting the gate, none of them had a mecanism to help access the Gate once you've completed a certain task.

Don't you? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html)
That girl had nothing to do with the Gate though. She was guarding the talisman. Completely unrelated business.

Do we know what Serini's alignment is/was?
Chaotic Good seems the most likely since she was a rogue and the only one who tried to get the group to not tear each other apart.

EDIT :
we could argue "you've proven yourself worthy, now do as you please with the Gate" for any of the defenses of any of the gates if you managed to destroy the defenses (like, say, leveling Azure City...)

[RatElemental]

But why would you do that? Whay would Serini buid a mecanism that rewards whoever gets past her defenses, what's the point?
"we could argue "you've proven yourself worthy, now do as you please with the Gate" for any of the defenses of any of the gates if you managed to destroy the defenses (like, say, leveling Azure City...)" No we couldn't. Each of the defenses we've seen was made to stop or dealy the attackers, the only "proof of worthiness" would have been to kill everybody protecting the gate, none of them had a mecanism to help access the Gate once you've completed a certain task.


Why would a locksmith build a mechanism to reward you for using a key to unlock your door? It should electrify the door handle and set the door on fire for you daring to go through the trouble of rummaging in your pockets and finding the key. What if you were a burglar?!

The point of defenses is to keep people out, yes, but the point of not burying whatever you're defending in cement and forgetting about it is that you (or certain other people you trust) can gain access to it for some reason.

[Schroeswald]

]Chaotic Good seems the most likely since she was a rogue and the only one who tried to get the group to not tear each other apart.


Lawful Good is also possible, she thought about multiclassing to Paladin after all (doesn't mean she had the requisite alignment, but its possible).

[Fyraltari]

Why would a locksmith build a mechanism to reward you for using a key to unlock your door? It should electrify the door handle and set the door on fire for you daring to go through the trouble of rummaging in your pockets and finding the key. What if you were a burglar?!

The point of defenses is to keep people out, yes, but the point of not burying whatever you're defending in cement and forgetting about it is that you (or certain other people you trust) can gain access to it for some reason.
Because it's my bloody house! I need to use it. The key exists because the defenses aren't made to stop me from accessing the house. It's a way to discriminate based on authorization which your system does not do, it discriminates based on strength, which is useless. At least Dorukan's enchentment discriminated based on alignment.


What you are proposing reminds me of the game Divayth Fyr of Morrowind fame proposes. He has many treasures hidden in his pestarium protected by traps. Anybody is welcomed to try to outsmart the guards, defuse the traps and take the treasure. But if you harm one of the patients (who are stricken with a contagious disease that makes them very violent) then you will be hunted down and destroyed. Fyr does not care much about these treasures, that's whay he sets them up as prizes to be won, but he does care about his patients, which is why he is more serious about protecting them. Serini is (presumably) serious about protecting the thing that prevents the literal end of the world.

[RatElemental]

Because it's my bloody house! I need to use it. The key exists because the defenses aren't made to stop me from accessing the house. It's a way to discriminate based on authorization which your system does not do, it discriminates based on strength, which is useless. At least Dorukan's enchentment discriminated based on alignment.


What you are proposing reminds me of the game Divayth Fyr of Morrowind fame proposes. He has many treasures hidden in his pestarium protected by traps. Anybody is welcomed to try to outsmart the guards, defuse the traps and take the treasure. But if you harm one of the patients (who are stricken with a contagious disease that makes them very violent) then you will be hunted down and destroyed. Fyr does not care much about these treasures, that's whay he sets them up as prizes to be won, but he does care about his patients, which is why he is more serious about protecting them. Serini is (presumably) serious about protecting the thing that prevents the literal end of the world.

So the serious way to protect the thing that can cause the literal end of the world is to put it behind one dungeon full of really dangerous monsters, and the unserious way is to rig it so that to get to it you have to get through a hundred of such dungeons?

Serini was the one who decided "raw strength" was going to be the key to accessing her gate. Just because it doesn't make as much sense as a literal key doesn't make it not the chosen key. Take it up with the halfling rogue who decided to gamble the world when she was designing the tomb with honoring Kraagor in mind.

[Kantaki]

So the serious way to protect the thing that can cause the literal end of the world is to put it behind one dungeon full of really dangerous monsters, and the unserious way is to rig it so that to get to it you have to get through a hundred of such dungeons?

Serini was the one who decided "raw strength" was going to be the key to accessing her gate. Just because it doesn't make as much sense as a literal key doesn't make it not the chosen key. Take it up with the halfling rogue who decided to gamble the world when she was designing the tomb with honoring Kraagor in mind.

Not the key, the protection.
The Gates, despite their names aren't supposed to be opened.
Dorukan designing his so he can run tests on it* aside, they weren't even meant to be accessed.

*And even then he made sure that only good people, who are unlikely to plan things like "unleash the god-eating abomination**", could actually get to the actual "Gate". Clearly he didn't consider bumbling fools like our heroes.:smallbiggrin:

**That would be deivore, I think?
Not that it matters, the Snarl is an literal omnivore after all.:smallamused:

[Peelee]

Not the key, the protection.
The Gates, despite their names aren't supposed to be opened.
Dorukan designing his so he can run tests on it* aside, they weren't even meant to be accessed.

*And even then he made sure that only good people, who are unlikely to plan things like "unleash the god-eating abomination", could actually get to the actual "Gate".

Source? After all the decidedly non-Good Xykon and Redcloak were able to get to it.

[RatElemental]

Source? After all the decidedly non-Good Xykon and Redcloak were able to get to it.

People keep confusing the "pure of heart" sigils as being protections for the gate, rather than protection for the talisman of outdated monsters.

[Jasdoif]

People keep confusing the "pure of heart" sigils as being protections for the gate, rather than protection for the talisman of outdated monsters.I'm not sure "confusing" is quite the right word. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html)

[RatElemental]

I'm not sure "confusing" is quite the right word. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html)

Well darn, guess I'm the mistaken one here.

[Peelee]

Aye, forgot about that.

[Jasdoif]

Well darn, guess I'm the mistaken one here.To be fair, Xykon/Redcloak aren't necessarily correct (It's a reasonable conjecture, involving something they now know is possible and that they hadn't had the means to verify); but that exchange is probably more responsible for the "Good Gate-Guard" idea, than conflating the talisman with the Gate is.

[Petrocorus]

The point of defenses is to keep people out, yes, but the point of not burying whatever you're defending in cement and forgetting about it is that you (or certain other people you trust) can gain access to it for some reason.
Except in this case, the Scribbles didn't want to gain access to it. They only wanted to be able to remain forever sure than no one at all had access to it.



Lawful Good is also possible, she thought about multiclassing to Paladin after all (doesn't mean she had the requisite alignment, but its possible).
By 3.5 SRD, she could be a CG Paladin of Freedom.


To be fair, Xykon/Redcloak aren't necessarily correct (It's a reasonable conjecture, involving something they now know is possible and that they hadn't had the means to verify); but that exchange is probably more responsible for the "Good Gate-Guard" idea, than conflating the talisman with the Gate is.
We have actually no reason to believe that Xykon is right in this matter, except that he does have his moment of brilliance.
If Elan had touched the Gate, it may have open the protection, or it may not. We have no evidence in one way or another in the comic.

[Fyraltari]

So the serious way to protect the thing that can cause the literal end of the world is to put it behind one dungeon full of really dangerous monsters, and the unserious way is to rig it so that to get to it you have to get through a hundred of such dungeons?
Pretty much yes. The system Serini chose is designed so that the attacking would waste ressources (such as scrolls, potions and such) and time while the one you devise would make that actually useful. Not to mention that no system is foolproof and the attackers could probably trick it or follow where it leads to bypass the whole thing.

The actually clever thing within this set-up would be that the one tunnel that does lead to the Gate holds monsters that are much, much tougher than the ones inside the others tunnel, this way the attackers would come in relatively unprepared.


Serini was the one who decided "raw strength" was going to be the key to accessing her gate. Just because it doesn't make as much sense as a literal key doesn't make it not the chosen key. Take it up with the halfling rogue who decided to gamble the world when she was designing the tomb with honoring Kraagor in mind.
It’s not a key. It’s a wall. It’s entire point is to not let people in.

[RatElemental]

Pretty much yes. The system Serini chose is designed so that the attacking would waste ressources (such as scrolls, potions and such) and time while the one you devise would make that actually useful. Not to mention that no system is foolproof and the attackers could probably trick it or follow where it leads to bypass the whole thing.

The actually clever thing within this set-up would be that the one tunnel that does lead to the Gate holds monsters that are much, much tougher than the ones inside the others tunnel, this way the attackers would come in relatively unprepared.


It’s not a key. It’s a wall. It’s entire point is to not let people in.

So it's better if less of the total defenses are part of the real path because then any resources used exploring it is 'wasted,' but if the entire thing is part of the actual defenses and thus would cost much more resources than the single real path method that's bad because the resources aren't being 'wasted'?

Like I said, the best case scenario for the single real path method is the default for the you need to do all the paths method. It doesn't matter if the resources used to explore the false paths are 'wasted' if they'd be used up just as much if all the paths are real paths, the goal is to use up as much time and resources of the bad guys as possible, why take the risk that the first door they take is the right one? Or the second? Or the third? Or the fourth? Or the fifth? Or the so on and so forth.

And if the goal is to keep everyone away from the gate forever and you never intend to visit it again, why have a path to it at all instead of just encasing it in the multidimensional stone? All of the paths being needed actually makes more sense in this case anyway, because the only reason you'd want a single door to be the right one would be so that you could bypass all the other doors yourself, but if you don't intend to do that there's no reason not to have all of them be needed to be cleared.

[hroþila]

??? That's... no, not quite. It's not "You've proven yourself worthy, now do as you please with the Gate", it's "we made this the toughest, most impenetrable series of dungeons known to mankind, if you've managed to get through all of them, I probably didn't have any chance of stopping you any other way".
No, you see: if you don't have that hypothetical mechanism that makes the Gate accessible once intruders defeat all the monsters, they can't get to the Gate at all. It would be self-defeating.

[Mariele]

Ah, I getcha now, hroþila. That is absolutely true, but if we're going by that, I'd say that there's no way to access to gate.*
Unless of course you're Serini with her ultra super magical way of accessing it that can never be used by anyone else or abused in any way but I'm not going to get into the mechanics of that.

[factotum]

Ah, I getcha now, hroþila. That is absolutely true, but if we're going by that, I'd say that there's no way to access to gate.*
Unless of course you're Serini with her ultra super magical way of accessing it that can never be used by anyone else or abused in any way but I'm not going to get into the mechanics of that.

How do you prevent someone accessing the Gate? It's a physical object that exists in the physical world. Even if you encase it in a mile of solid stone it would only take a year or two for a cleric to Stone Shape a tunnel leading right to it.

[danielxcutter]

How do you prevent someone accessing the Gate? It's a physical object that exists in the physical world. Even if you encase it in a mile of solid stone it would only take a year or two for a cleric to Stone Shape a tunnel leading right to it.

That's what the defenses are for. Good luck Stone Shaping your way there while fighting off five half-fiendish bulettes and an advanced half-dragon purple worm at the same time. :smalltongue:

[factotum]

Those will slow you down, maybe, but certainly they're not going to stop you when you're the sort of level Team Evil are.

[danielxcutter]

Those will slow you down, maybe, but certainly they're not going to stop you when you're the sort of level Team Evil are.

I was mostly joking - you get my point, though.

[Petrocorus]

... it would only take a year or two for a cleric to Stone Shape a tunnel leading right to it.

Pfff.... Real Clericzillas get a Beholder to disintegrate a tunnel for them.:smallsigh:

[jwhouk]

As much as I definitely like the "clear all the dungeons" idea, I'd have to think that it doesn't actually reveal the gate.

In a nod to Serini's rogue side, it might reveal something like, "Okay,you've shown your brute force, but to actually find the gate, you need to open the one that has the Blue Fizzbin Doohickey in it. The one with the red handles on the one side."

Which could have been in most, half, or a few of the other doors. But unless they were meticulous about noting which door had which items in it, it means a second dungeon crawl.

And the Blue Fizzbin Doohickey with Red Handles on One Side could have encoded on the inside, "To activate the gate you must replace this one in the Yellow Fizzbin Recepticle next to the one Blue Fizzbin Doohickey with Red Handles on Both Sides."

And so on, and so on, and so on...

[Quizatzhaderac]

IMHO, a theory on how the dungeon works needs to answer two questions.

Why not one very long dungeon (rather than dozens of short ones, stick them all end to end).

Why have any path at all?

If Sirini dug a tunnel out, built the gate, and bricked over the tunnel there would be an obvious bricked over spot to start searching. She would (of course) try to disguise the entrance, but a gate searcher with nothing else to go on would eventually find it.

As for the long/short dungeon question: perhaps the gate is in a naturally occurring cave that happens to not be too long. Perhaps there's some misdirection. Perhaps is leaves room to imagine misdirection (sorry, you need to do the doors in a certain order!).

The question we should not ask is "would a dungeon maker expect a series of level appropriate encounters to stop an intruder?" This is the central conceit of D&D: Dungeon makers will always expect it to work and it will never work on main characters. Or maybe it works on 95% (https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/path-of-a-hero) of adventuring parties that don't get books written about them (this would also explain why people don't go into a job that pays astronomically more than being a commoner).

So my theory is: The cave with the gate has it's end bricked up and disguised. Dozens of other caves were created as diversions (also expecting intruders would probably be killed). If the intruder finds the right cave the first time, they'll thing it's the wrong cave because they don't see a gate. One an an intruder does all the doors, maybe they'll figure it out, or maybe they'll make a wrong conclusion (just dig a mile under the statue). After the intruder knows the deal, they'll still have to go though much of the dungeon to find the false wall.

[CriticalFailure]

the difference between pcs and npcs is whether they can succeed at the things or not

[Quizatzhaderac]

Also if they can fail (https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1017). Commoners can probably fall of horses whenever they want to.