Haste Extra Attack Action order

[Tes]

Couldn't find anything preventing the Extra Attack Action granted by Haste to be used before your regular Attack (or Bonus Attack for the matter).
So was wondering what I'm missing or if any of you guys know about a source for confirmation.

Choose a willing creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, the target’s speed is doubled, it gains a +2 bonus to AC, it has advantage on Dexterity saving throws, and it gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action.

Context for this would be the following:
Use the additional Action granted by haste to Attack(x1) Target X.
This satisfies the condition to use the Shieldmaster Feat Bonus Action to attempt to prone Target X.

This would then free you up to either
1) move away and use your full regular Action (cast a spell, grapple, use Extra Attacks) against target Y 20 feet away.
2) Attack Target X with Advantage as many times as you're able to with your regular Attack Action.

[Addaran]

Yeah, nothing prevent you from doing your haste-attack first. And since it's the Attack Action (but limited to one attack) it counts for Shield Master.

[MaxWilson]

The equivalent for a Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter is to throw a net on the target with Haste, then shoot it with advantage a bunch of times.

[Tes]

Cool thanks, that opens up a build I had in mind.
Although I'm probably better off creating a separate thread about it :smallwink:

[col_impact]

Cool thanks, that opens up a build I had in mind.
Although I'm probably better off creating a separate thread about it :smallwink:
Point me to the thread. Wink. Handshake.

[kazaryu]

Couldn't find anything preventing the Extra Attack Action granted by Haste to be used before your regular Attack (or Bonus Attack for the matter).
So was wondering what I'm missing or if any of you guys know about a source for confirmation.

Choose a willing creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, the target’s speed is doubled, it gains a +2 bonus to AC, it has advantage on Dexterity saving throws, and it gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action.

Context for this would be the following:
Use the additional Action granted by haste to Attack(x1) Target X.
This satisfies the condition to use the Shieldmaster Feat Bonus Action to attempt to prone Target X.

This would then free you up to either
1) move away and use your full regular Action (cast a spell, grapple, use Extra Attacks) against target Y 20 feet away.
2) Attack Target X with Advantage as many times as you're able to with your regular Attack Action.

while i acknowledge that there is some utility in taking the attack action first (i.e. hey! more damage)
i will point out that the haste action can also just be used to disengage which 1. only uses the hasted action and 2 is guaranteed to get you away safely, rather than using your bonus action to make a roll, to *maybe* give your opponent disadvantage on the opportunity attack. im not saying it'd be better in all situations, but its something to think about.

further, speaking of the shieldmaster feat specifically, and with full acknowledgement that this is RaI not RaW, it seems fairly obvious that the person should be allowed to make the shove attempt before their attack action. otherwise the feat as a whole is extremely weak and niche (and does a poor job of fitting the archetype its targeting). again, thats just an interpretation, i get that strictly reading the feat it doesn't read that way.

edit: another option is to take the mobile feat instead of shield master, as its a mix of both our ideas (with some sacrifices on both sides.)

[MaxWilson]

while i acknowledge that there is some utility in taking the attack action first (i.e. hey! more damage)
i will point out that the haste action can also just be used to disengage which 1. only uses the hasted action and 2 is guaranteed to get you away safely, rather than using your bonus action to make a roll, to *maybe* give your opponent disadvantage on the opportunity attack. im not saying it'd be better in all situations, but its something to think about.

Good point on disengage.

Also, if you're only interested in avoiding opportunity attacks, not attacking with advantage, Shove Away is better than Shove Prone against creatures who don't have reach. But Shove Prone forces them to give up movement and may be better for protecting other PCs. (Ditto net-throwing.)

[kazaryu]

Good point on disengage.

If you're only interested in avoiding opportunity attacks, not attacking with advantage, Shove Away is better than Shove Prone against creatures who don't have reach. But Shove Prone forces them to give up movement and may be better for protecting other PCs.

ohhh, thats a good point too. i don't generally think of the actual shove away action, likely due to it not usually being as useful as shove prone. but this is a perfect example of when it would be useful. well, somewhat. as you point out shove prone does effectively reduce their movement.

so while shove prone means you *might* still eat that opportunity attack, it *can* ensure that they are unable to close range and still attack you on their follow up turn. which is also an important consideration since being double teamed can be bad news.

[MaxWilson]

ohhh, thats a good point too. i don't generally think of the actual shove away action, likely due to it not usually being as useful as shove prone. but this is a perfect example of when it would be useful. well, somewhat. as you point out shove prone does effectively reduce their movement.

so while shove prone means you *might* still eat that opportunity attack, it *can* ensure that they are unable to close range and still attack you on their follow up turn. which is also an important consideration since being double teamed can be bad news.


Note further that PAM is probably better than Shield Master here because you can Attack Shove Prone + Extra Attack(s) at advantage + bonus action attack at advantage + move away (taking opportunity attack at disadvantage) + get reaction attack if the enemy approaches you again. No Haste needed, comes online by level 5. (Or even Level 1 if you're a variant human and don't mind using your only Attack to Shove with your polearm.)

[kazaryu]

Note further that PAM is probably better than Shield Master here because you can Attack Shove Prone + Extra Attack(s) at advantage + bonus action attack at advantage + move away (taking opportunity attack at disadvantage) + get reaction attack if the enemy approaches you again. No Haste needed, comes online by level 5. (Or even Level 1 if you're a variant human and don't mind using your only Attack to Shove with your polearm.)

true, but thats getting a bit beyond the scope of the proposed scenario. as the OP's original scenario was setting up a disengage so that they could use their action to attack a secondary target.

[Tes]

Point me to the thread. Wink. Handshake.
There you go mate.

Edit:
Forum won't let me use Links since total post count is below 10 yadda yadda, look for "Breaking the mold on OoV Paladin"

Note further that PAM is probably better than Shield Master here because you can Attack Shove Prone + Extra Attack(s) at advantage + bonus action attack at advantage + move away (taking opportunity attack at disadvantage) + get reaction attack if the enemy approaches you again. No Haste needed, comes online by level 5. (Or even Level 1 if you're a variant human and don't mind using your only Attack to Shove with your polearm.)
Valid point, but still means you're stuck with a Feat hungry build and ultimately the same action economy.
See the above thread for the minor differences and why imho the Shieldmaster build ends up ahead overall.
It just gets online faster and can actually use Haste without fear of dying from losing Concentration.

[MaxWilson]

Edit:
Forum won't let me use Links since total post count is below 10 yadda yadda, look for "Breaking the mold on OoV Paladin"

Link for convenience: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?609963-Breaking-the-mold-on-OoV-Paladin


Valid point, but still means you're stuck with a Feat hungry build and ultimately the same action economy.
See the above thread for the minor differences and why imho the Shieldmaster build ends up ahead overall.
It just gets online faster and can actually use Haste without fear of dying from losing Concentration.

It's the same number of feats as Shield Master: 1 feat. And you're getting three attacks, with advantage on two of them, where the Shield Master is only getting two without Haste, and only has advantage on those two if the DM (quite reasonably) lets you shield-bash before making your attacks. AND it's more compatible with GWM, which is the best way to convert advantage into extra damage.

Polearm Master is even still usable with a shield, if you don't want to go the GWM route.