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Squatting_Monk
2007-10-24, 09:21 AM
I have never found half-elves or half-orcs or half- anything palatable, and, in my campaign setting would prefer not to have them. Never having been one to force my players to play exactly what I want, however, I've chosen to keep them, albeit making a few changes.

Thinking of it in terms of genetics, I've realized that the interbreeding of different species is impossible - at least, it's impossible for their offspring to be fertile. I thought then, that it might keep the number of half- races low to say that, for example, an orc and a human may have children but that those children cannot then breed. A variation on this says that they can breed, but not with another half-blood (i.e., the half-orc could breed with a human or an orc, but not with another half-orc). This would allow for, say, orc blood or dragon blood to be handed down the family tree. Is this even possible, genetically speaking?

How have others in this situation handled it? I suppose you could just say they're all the same species but that the racial differences are similar to, say, the difference between a terrier and a great dane - both can interbreed but they appear wildly different. I find that unpalatable as well, and it really only encourages muddying of the PC races that much more. Thoughts?

Morty
2007-10-24, 09:47 AM
I don't really think applying genetics to fantasy races can work.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-24, 10:00 AM
Yes, moreso considering polymorph like resculpts your genes temporarily.

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-24, 10:03 AM
Yes, moreso considering polymorph like resculpts your genes temporarily.

What? Why would you say it does that?

It's possible to change a creature's body without altering its genetics at all. And, in fact, altering a creature's genetics after it's already developed wouldn't do anything.

Manticorkscrew
2007-10-24, 10:03 AM
All the campaigns I've been in tend to take the position that different races can't interbreed. Or they go the other way and take the interbreeding thing to its logical conclusion.

Playing a quarter-orc, quarter-elf, quarter-dwarf, quarter-ogre is fun!

But yeah, mixing accurate knowledge of genetics and fantasy is probably a bad idea.

Bender
2007-10-24, 10:03 AM
Is this even possible, genetically speaking?

Sure it is, whatever you want. It's your campaign, you determine how it works. Personally, I don't think disallowing half-breeds is such a big deal. Except dragons, they can breed with anything.

EvilElitest
2007-10-24, 10:05 AM
Well, if a human and a Neanderthals bread, would their child be able to breed?
from,
EE

Kurald Galain
2007-10-24, 10:05 AM
[FONT="Tahoma"]an orc and a human may have children but that those children cannot then breed.
Yes, this is possible, a real-life example being the mule.


A variation on this says that they can breed, but not with another half-blood (i.e., the half-orc could breed with a human or an orc, but not with another half-orc).
This, however, does not make sense.



How have others in this situation handled it?
By ditching the half-races. The offspring of a human and an elf is either a human that looks vaguely elfish, or an elf that looks vaguely human. Of course, people will call him a half-breed or whatever, but rule-technically he is either human or elf, not both simultaneously.
The offspring of a human-who-looks-elfish and a human-who-looks-like-a-human is, you guessed it, a human. The offspring of a human-who-looks-elfish and an elf-who-looks-humanish is, flip a coin, either of the two.
This assumes the races are capable of interbreeding to begin with; I don't recall fantasy literature ever coming up with half-dwarves or half-halflings, and as I recall the only reason D&D has a "half-orc" is because full orcs are deemed to be too "evil" to play.

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-24, 10:12 AM
Oh, and a fun genetics fact, just to confuse everyone: Female ligers are fertile. In fact, many female panthera hybrids are fertile. Males tend to be infertile, though.

Morty
2007-10-24, 10:16 AM
(...)Because full orcs are deemed to be too "evil" to play.

Which causes some problems by raising a question as to where half-orcs come from if orcs are generally evil and in state of constant war with humans.
I myself resolved them matter of half-breeds by stating that humans, elves and dark elves(that are wholly different race in my setting) are close enough to interbreed ny the virtue of coming from the same ancestry. Goblins and hobgoblins, being twp branches of old pre-goblin race can interbreed as well. There are stats for half-breeds, and when one of my players wanted to play quarter-elf I just let him play human with few toned down half-elf traits.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-24, 10:17 AM
Which raises the question, why the frickin' heck can you only get catgirls and not catboys? It would be fun to have lightehearted werewolves.

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-24, 10:27 AM
Which raises the question, why the frickin' heck can you only get catgirls and not catboys? It would be fun to have lightehearted werewolves.

Catgirls are more popular on the Internet due to many Internet denizens being male and heterosexual. And really creepy.

Catboys exist in anime almost as often as catgirls do! And are often cuter, because adult catboys are seemingly non-existant. >.>

Saph
2007-10-24, 10:28 AM
Which causes some problems by raising a question as to where half-orcs come from if orcs are generally evil and in state of constant war with humans.

Uh, it's quite believable actually, but I don't really want to explain how.


Which raises the question, why the frickin' heck can you only get catgirls and not catboys?

Obviously you haven't read all that much fanfiction. Look into the stuff that anime fangirls write. There are plenty of catboys. :)

- Saph

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-24, 11:02 AM
Yes, there are catboys, but no official saying on 'em. THAT'S what ticks me off, that you'd have to invent some explanation for them being uncommon or not.

PS: And I absolutely refuse to accept the old "catgirl traits override the other species' traits" idea. There MUST be some other convincing explanation.

Saph
2007-10-24, 11:23 AM
Yes, there are catboys, but no official saying on 'em. THAT'S what ticks me off, that you'd have to invent some explanation for them being uncommon or not.

PS: And I absolutely refuse to accept the old "catgirl traits override the other species' traits" idea. There MUST be some other convincing explanation.

Okay, stop and think for a second. You're using the phrases 'official saying' and 'convincing explanation' in the same sentence as 'catgirl'. :P

There are no official catgirls in D&D, as far as I know, just a 'Catfolk' race from Races of the Wild. Which has male and female members, just like any other.

- Saph

Fhaolan
2007-10-24, 11:24 AM
If you *really* want to get into genetics in D&D...

Okay, given that half-elves exist in standard D&D, elves and humans are probably about as far away from each other genetically as a horse and a zebra. Which can mate and produce offspring, which are generally classified as types of mules/hinnies. (A male offspring is a mule, a female offspring is a hinny.)

Now, here's an interesting factoid. Mules are sterile. Hinnies are sterile 99.999% of the time. There are documented cases of Hinnies actually having offspring of their own, but it's *extremely* rare. 1 in 1 million kind of stuff.

Another type of hybrid is the lion/tiger hybrid. If the female parent is a tiger, the result is a liger, if the female parent is a lion, it's called a tigon.

Male ligers and tigons are sterile. In this case, though, most female ligers and tigons are fertile.

Which all ties back to Haldane's rule (When in the offspring of two different animal races one sex is absent, rare, or sterile, that sex is the heterozygous (heterogametic) sex.)

And of course, you know that heterozygous is simply the description of the genotype of a diploid organism that has two different alleles at a single genetic locus.

So now we need to start mapping alleles for the different 'races'....

...

At this point, I need to ask. Is this really that important? Genetics is really not that easy, which is why it's an entire field of study. You probably don't *really* want to get into it, you just want someone to come up with a scientific justification for disallowing half-breeds in D&D. Unfortunately, it's not that easy as Elves and Orcs (and D&D Humans) are fictional creatures with no basis in genetics to begin with. Evolution doesn't apply, as 'races' of creatures are created, and destroyed by the whim of the gods.

Due to the presence of magic in that universe, it's entirely possible if not likely that genetics doesn't exist at all, or many of the other microscopic sciences we take for granted, like atoms and whatnot.

As another example, acid burns in this universe because it's a chemical reaction based on cation bonding. Acid burns in that universe because its elemental water is infused with energetic elemental fire...

So what it all boils down to, if you don't want half-breeds. Don't have half-breeds. You don't need a scientific justification for anything you do in game. It exists in a different reality with different scientific rules.

Kurald Galain
2007-10-24, 11:25 AM
Which raises the question, why the frickin' heck can you only get catgirls and not catboys?

There are catboys (Thundercats, ahoy!) However, the race is called "catgirls" because "felianthropics" sounds too awkward :smallbiggrin:

Wraithy
2007-10-24, 11:57 AM
... I don't think this is the right time to tell you about Bastards & Bloodlines: a guide to half-bloods

amish
2007-10-24, 11:58 AM
Personally I dislike mixing my science and my fantasy, unless it makes the fantasy more fun somehow. I do tend to keep my worlds a bit on the low fantasy/ realistic side, but in general the only reason for fantasy creatures to have genes at all is as a convenience to the GM. Running games in places with radically different physical laws is just a lot of work...

But on the other hand, personally I don't want to know how the hyperdrive works on the inside, just that it does (unless the imperials are chasing you :smallwink: ). I figure, if people think it would be fun to play as a half-squid, who am I to question the logistics involved?

Also, this seems a great opportunity to quote the MST3K theme song:

"If you're wondering how he eats and breathes
And other science facts,
Just repeat to yourself 'It's just a show,
I should really just relax'"
:smallbiggrin:

Logic Cannon
2007-10-24, 12:03 PM
I'm in the same boat with the OP - I don't much care for half-races either. I find they're not very competitive choices and most roleplaying with them boils down to "I'm very emo all the time" or "I WANT MOMMY TO LOVE ME" which gets old quickly. I've found that by eliminating the half-races as a genetic concept and instituting them with different names as playable races and distinct backgrounds into a campaign setting (for instance, Half-Orcs are not literally the offspring of a human and an orc but are something else altogether), you get much better results.

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-24, 12:09 PM
The Logic Ninja's special attack would be Logic Cannon, I'm sure.

No, this post doesn't relate to the thread. But that guy has an awesome screen name.

Hasivel
2007-10-24, 12:17 PM
I agree w/ the "Different physics, different rules, make up whatever you want" bit. The Greek legends had all sorts of creepy and bizarre half-races running around from centaurs to minotaurs to whatever the heck spawned the Chimera.

Also it's amusing to note that the Japanese Anime term normally translated "Catgirl" is Nekomimi, which actually means "Cat Eared" and refers to both genders. Male Nekomimi are quite common (Inuyasha being a good example although I'm not entirely sure if he's cat or dog) but don't gather as much notice for some reason.

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-24, 12:31 PM
I agree w/ the "Different physics, different rules, make up whatever you want" bit. The Greek legends had all sorts of creepy and bizarre half-races running around from centaurs to minotaurs to whatever the heck spawned the Chimera.

Also it's amusing to note that the Japanese Anime term normally translated "Catgirl" is Nekomimi, which actually means "Cat Eared" and refers to both genders. Male Nekomimi are quite common (Inuyasha being a good example although I'm not entirely sure if he's cat or dog) but don't gather as much notice for some reason.

Inuyasha - Inu Yasha - Dog Demon.

The clue's in the name.

Fishy
2007-10-24, 12:36 PM
True story: Scientists have found a particular mountain chain that has some very peculiar frogs.

Mountains A, B and C are next to each other in a line. Frogs from mountain A can mate with frogs from mountain B, and have viable and fertile offspring. Frogs from mountain C can do the same with frogs from mountain B. The kicker is, frogs from A and C are totally genetically incompatible, and never have live offspring. Given that, what 'species' are any of these frogs? It's hard to say.

Basically, Mother Nature does whatever the heck it wants: so can the DM. If you don't like them for flavor reasons, kick them out. If you want them in, but are concerned about 'realism', don't be.

Re Hasivel: The neat thing is that they all had The Same Mother (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echidna_(mythology))... Which makes sense in a mythological kind of way.

Dullyanna
2007-10-24, 01:25 PM
Well, if a human and a Neanderthal breed, would their child be able to breed?
from,
EE

The latter is a subspecies of humans, so I think they can produce viable offspring.

@Mort:You probably know the answer by now, but if not... well it starts with an R, and ends with something after C.

Squatting_Monk
2007-10-24, 01:30 PM
The reason I bring science into this is because in my campaign setting, the world is finally emerging form the age of magic and has embraced science wholeheartedly. I'm thinking of a sort of Enlightenment period with early Industrial Revolution technology. Since I'm wanting to deal with modern themes in the setting, I want to have racism, etc., justified on the basis of science. For example, IRL, Hitler and his contemporaries justified their mass murders based on the "genetic inferiority" of the Jews, based on Darwin's work. Social Darwinism continues to this day to some extent, but I want to see the more ruthless type such as that typified by the Eugenics movement.

I've toyed with the idea of having proto-races (with a broad gene pool from which multiple varieties of each race could develop) which the gods created that eventually evolved into the current races, and I think that theories about these races would provide great fuel for the fires of racial hatred in this world. This doesn't have to be simply between differing races. You could, for example, have the human states waging wars with each other based on a presumed genetic superiority.

The notion of mixing races (and the mystery behind it) gave me some nifty ideas. I wanted to keep all the major PC races (with the exception of half-elves and half-orcs), and, in looking for a justification for having halflings, I decided that the prevailing theory is that they are some perverse crossbreed of goblin and gnome or goblin and human (half-goblins, worn down to halflins>halflings). Whether this is true or not is a matter of debate, but humans use their "scientific understanding" to enslave halflings just as they did the goblins.

This makes me wonder, though: if I am trying to really tone down the number of half-whatevers runnign around, am I better off trying to rationalize it with genetics or simply make the fiat decision that there's not very many (possibly as a result of racial prejudice making them unlikely to mate)? If the latter, how to justify the creation of the races by the gods at different times and yet the presence of genetic material similar enough to generate viable offspring?

Of course, I don't want to get into statting out alleles and stuff, but since I'm wanting to make a setting that more or less follows scientific rules, I'd like to ensure that I don't take such things as race mixing as a given (since, while it certainly applies in a fantasy setting where everything is explained by magic, it doesn't necessarily hold true in this world).

Am I making too big a deal about nothing? Probably, but the little details like this bug me to no end. :smalltongue:

alexi
2007-10-24, 01:32 PM
ahhh the same mother thing is kinda like Hel and loki spawning the mitgaard serpent and uhhhh that giant puppy who bit off tyr's hand

Squatting_Monk
2007-10-24, 01:38 PM
True story: Scientists have found a particular mountain chain that has some very peculiar frogs.

Mountains A, B and C are next to each other in a line. Frogs from mountain A can mate with frogs from mountain B, and have viable and fertile offspring. Frogs from mountain C can do the same with frogs from mountain B. The kicker is, frogs from A and C are totally genetically incompatible, and never have live offspring. Given that, what 'species' are any of these frogs? It's hard to say.

We studied something similar in my freshman biology class. The issue at hand here is speciation: a broad gene pool is shared by a species intially, but when the populations spread out into separate geographical areas, they develop using only the genes present in their population. Eventually, many of the traits population A had are bred out of population B. If the traits are there but are simply recessive, the populations can interbreed. If not, they can't. (It's been a while since the class, so I'm sure I oversimplified or said something totally wrong.)

In the case of proto-races, you might have a race from which orcs, goblins, and hobgoblins all evolved. The orcs are more genetically removed form the primary strain and are unable to interbreed with the other two races, while goblins and hobgoblins can interbreed freely. Of course, such a thing is up to the DM, but it adds believability to the system, and the other races are not simply monsters tacked on for the sake of having various baddies to fight. Personally, I enjoy that.

Maroon
2007-10-24, 01:47 PM
The latter is a subspecies of humans, so I think they can produce viable offspring.
Same genus, different species, very unlikely to have ever had offspring together.

Seeing as fantasy races are fantasy races, not species, there's no reason why a demihuman should not be able to have children with another demihuman apart from being icky about it.

boomwolf
2007-10-24, 01:58 PM
First-that puppy is called fenrir. and he is quite large.


Cross-breeds are possible between all creatures with same number of chromosomes and at least 80% genetic match.
Jest for refferance, a chimp is 97% genetic match to a human.
So practically. a orc-elf should be probably possible (as both match with human.)

Now, if the offspring will have a body that can maintain life? thats another question. in a 95% genetic match or more it SHOULD have a fair chance (like the father and mother are from same race)

If both creatures share a genetic line, a crossbreed is more likely to work.
So, if dwarfs and gnolls evolved from the same race (they are in warcraft) a cross-breed should be optional (but it might never come to be because both races are busy killing each other off.)

So, if you want to make a TRUE system, you need to make a SINGLE core race, and add a given number of "bloodlines" for each PC/NPC (say 4. it makes sense.) where some bloodlines increase LA, some decrease, and some keep it the same. and "changes to look" apply into the bloodlines.
But that is way too much work so a few templates is easier.

If a DM agrees, he can allow somebody to be "half something" and then make some sort of "mix&match" of the two races.

Jannex
2007-10-24, 02:01 PM
ahhh the same mother thing is kinda like Hel and loki spawning the mitgaard serpent and uhhhh that giant puppy who bit off tyr's hand

Fenris-Wolf?

Edit: Ninja'd.

Hasivel
2007-10-24, 02:23 PM
Inuyasha - Inu Yasha - Dog Demon.

The clue's in the name.
Ah, thanks. Couldn't tell from the Artwork and didn't watch enough of the show to pick it up from any other clues.

Hmm, carrying on the Norse bit didn't Loki have an 8-legged horse with a stallion in one of the creepier legends? Loki's just such a fun god, perfectly willing to go female if it gives him the advantage.

alexi
2007-10-24, 02:28 PM
nahh that 8 legged horse was Woden's

And the Fennir puppy just needed some love. remember there is no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners

Drglenn
2007-10-24, 02:49 PM
Its probably safe to assume that all humanoid race have a similar genetic makeup as humans (i.e. 46 chromosomes, all around the same sizes as humans) they just express different genes (human genes have a lot of 'useless' DNA left over from earlier evolutions), therefore they can interbreed normally and produce fertile offspring. Dragons, celestials etc. probably change the size and number of their chromosomes in their gametes only when they transform so that they can breed with other races to produce fertile offspring.

mostlyharmful
2007-10-24, 03:02 PM
Slephnir was Wodan horse alright, he was given to Wodan by Loki after a mysterious nine month absense after "distracting":smallamused: the horse of the giant hired to build the walls of valhalla. And none of this means anything to the PHB races, gods are even more cross species fertile than dragons and they get their end away with anything that moves:smallredface:

Benejeseret
2007-10-24, 03:05 PM
First off, although covered generally already worth pointing out again - 'species' seperation does not mean the inability to make fertile offspring.

It really only means that two groups do not normally mate in a natural set of circumstances.

Over time this lack of gene transfer means alleles are fixed at different frequencing and eventually become incompatable. The non-fertity issue has more to do with a chromosomal/meiosis structural changes (fusions, breaks, and numerous inversions) than with individual gene mutation etc.

So how to make a Dnd compatable system for demon/draconic/half-X ?

1. One option is to not use 'chromosomes' at all. Rather have the biology of your system work by single unit, co-dominant expressed systems such as plasmids...big plasmids.

If the DNA never goes through meiosis, never needs chiasma and crossover, then hybrid sterility would not be a problem. Make all your sentient life prokaryotic-like with no nucleus and numerous high copy plasmids making up the entire genome. Now any egg/sperm/spore whatever can fuse together and never worry about later chromosomal pairing. Get bit by a werewolf? Fine, it its saliva carries an infectious plasmid which (like a provirus) quickly infects every cell in the body and becomes stable as an episome.

For things like polymorph or wild shape you could require the caster to obtain the proper plasmid (if it sounds like bioshock.....well....we molecular biologists thought of it first) from the create he wants to become and needs to infect himself with it. Then the magic suppresses all other plasmids (ie. the human ones) leaving only the new ______ ones active. Ignoring catgirls and the sudden mass changes.

2. Or, assume all life if very recent on your world. All has the same # of chromosome pairs and the pairs have not undergone crossover/inversion/fusion etc.

toddex
2007-10-24, 03:50 PM
This is why real world anything must always be kept out of the game.

There is but one explanation for this all, humans are the whores of D&D.

Vuzzmop
2007-10-24, 04:41 PM
I don't allow half breed races in my game. Not so much because of the scientific aspect (although it does vex me a little bit), mostly just my setting.

Threeshades
2007-10-24, 04:52 PM
Well, if a human and a Neanderthals bread, would their child be able to breed?
from,
EE

Neanderthals ARE human so yes. And its pretty possible that europe is mainly inhabited by neander-touched. Also there is a theory that the caucasian type is actually a mix of the asian and neanderthel.


Bout interbreeding humans with orcs or elves should be possible, i actually thought they are not too far away genetically, especially not entirely different species.
But if in your campaign world orcs and elves are different species than human, you can still go the "half-races are mules" way.
I know a German pen and paper RPG where there are actually Half-orc-half-elves. I always forget the english name of that game, but probably theres also a D&D campaign setting.

So what about half-dragons? That is quite a difference.

mostlyharmful
2007-10-24, 04:55 PM
Plus in some settings elves and orcs and dwarves all originate from other planes, or descend from the fey or are created by gods and so have no genetic link to other species at all.
also I now want to work out the rules and/or the origin of half warforged:smallconfused:

Threeshades
2007-10-24, 05:05 PM
Plus in some settings elves and orcs and dwarves all originate from other planes, or descend from the fey or are created by gods and so have no genetic link to other species at all.
also I now want to work out the rules and/or the origin of half warforged:smallconfused:

The so called Love-forged? :smallamused:

mostlyharmful
2007-10-24, 05:15 PM
The so called Love-forged? :smallamused:

He's a lover not a fighter.. ooh ooh....
He's just a lovin machine...
:smallfrown:

Stormcrow
2007-10-24, 06:16 PM
As far as I've always been concerned the various "races" are all just ethnicities of the humanoid "race" I don't see any reason that two humanoid races couldn't breed together considering they are from the same branching point.

If you go _way_ back to the beginings of the fantasy genre theres a thoery that humans are the product of breeding between elves and dwarves.

A Liger is Sterline because a Lion and a Tiger are very different animals. I don't know why my lovechild with an elf should be sterile because are not so dis-similar.

Grynning
2007-10-24, 06:35 PM
By the way, on the Neanderthal topic, IRL Neanderthals (they are extinct) are classified as a different species from humans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

There appears to still be some debate as to how genetically similar they were to modern humans, and it is as yet unknown as to whether their species could successfully interbreed with ours.

I honestly have the same scientific disagreement with the existence of D&D half-races...but then, I have scientific disagreements with shooting fireballs out of my hands from chanting some words and forcing my will upon the universe...never seems to work out...

Mewtarthio
2007-10-24, 06:43 PM
Cross-breeds are possible between all creatures with same number of chromosomes and at least 80% genetic match.
Jest for refferance, a chimp is 97% genetic match to a human.

Are you saying that humans can interbreed with chimpanzees? Or do they have a different number of chromosomes?


So practically. a orc-elf should be probably possible (as both match with human.)

What if humans are orc-elf hybrids? Orcs are strong and stupid, elves are weak and smart, humans are right in the middle and can interbreed with both.


So, if you want to make a TRUE system, you need to make a SINGLE core race, and add a given number of "bloodlines" for each PC/NPC (say 4. it makes sense.) where some bloodlines increase LA, some decrease, and some keep it the same. and "changes to look" apply into the bloodlines.
But that is way too much work so a few templates is easier.

UA Bloodlines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) variant?

Driderman
2007-10-24, 06:59 PM
Um... Actually, the minotaur came in existence because some crazy queen fell in love with a prize bull and had her underlings build a 'thing' so she could get it on with it... :smalleek:

Karma Guard
2007-10-24, 07:22 PM
This is why real world anything must always be kept out of the game.

There is but one explanation for this all, humans are the whores of D&D.

Them, and Dragons.

F.L.
2007-10-24, 08:30 PM
Are you saying that humans can interbreed with chimpanzees? Or do they have a different number of chromosomes?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanzee

A definite maybe. We'd know for sure if scientist didn't have those pesky ethics.

F.L.
2007-10-24, 08:37 PM
What? Why would you say it does that?

It's possible to change a creature's body without altering its genetics at all. And, in fact, altering a creature's genetics after it's already developed wouldn't do anything.

I'd sure hate to lose the small segment of my DNA that encodes the production of dopamine right now. Or gain a small activated segment that encodes catalysts to continually synthesize acetone from sugar, such as from the clostridium acetobutylicum.

Dullyanna
2007-10-24, 08:48 PM
Same genus, different species, very unlikely to have ever had offspring together.

As Grynning said, we're not sure if they're a separate species, or just a subspecies. The dictionary I checked before I made my earlier post said they were a subspecies. Grynning's link backs him up, in that we really don't bloody know.

@Whoever said different species can interbreed properly: The dictionary says you're wrong.

http://www.answers.com/topic/species

StickMan
2007-10-24, 09:17 PM
I'll point out that many species of canine can interbreed and have children. I'm not just talking Wolfs and Dogs here. Fox's have been known to repoduce with dogs and Coyotes and the children can reproduce. Red Wolf are believed to be a cross between Grey Wolfs and the Coyotes. Two species interbreed to make a new one.