How viable is a non-EB warlock? (not a bladelock)

[Greywander]

I've been thinking about trying to build a trickster character again (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?562945-Creating-a-Trickster-AT-Sorc-Bard-Multiclass-Homebrew-subclass). The suite of abilities I'd imagine on a trickster include illusions, enchantments, telepathy, teleportation, telekinesis, and shapeshifting. The most efficient way to get most of what I want with a minimal level investment seems to be with a GOO chainlock:

1st Level - Telepathy. One-way, but it's discrete (no overt spell components).
2nd Level - Infinite Silent Image and Disguise Self.
3rd Level - A minion that can fly, turn invisible, and shapeshift, all at will. This alone allows me to do an awful lot of really neat things.
5th Level - A third invocation for Voice of the Chain Master. This is about as close to being in two places as you can get, though not perfect.

These, along with the spells and cantrips I learn, get me a lot of the basic tricks I'd want on a trickster character. The question is, where do I go from here?

One option is to stick with a straight warlock. In for a dime, in for a dollar, as they say. With this option, I could get Agonizing Blast and use EB. But would I have to? I feel like the trickster would err more on the side of using control spells over EB spam. And if I skip on EB then I'm sure I can find good invocations to pick up instead of Agonizing Blast. However, warlocks just don't get enough spell slots to sling spells around like a wizard does, which is why most of them fall back onto EB spam.

My other thought was to veer into sorcerer or bard for the last 15 levels. Sorcerer gets me Subtle Spell and lots of cantrips, bard gets me Expertise, Vicious Mockery, and Magical Secrets. However, this only leaves me with three invocations, just enough for Misty Visions, Mask of Many Faces, and Voice of the Chain Master. This means no Agonizing Blast, which means there's not much reason to grab EB over other damage cantrips, and Vicious Mockery would be on brand.

Heck, going wizard 15, either Illusionist or Enchanter, could also be an interesting path, though I'd be split between CHA and INT.

How does a non-bladelock do without EB? I know Celestials can get away with Sacred Flame, but what about other patrons? What's your fallback when you run out of spell slots?

[col_impact]

Empowered spell metamagic and magic missile/cantrip from 3 level Sorceror dip would be one way.

[kazaryu]

I've been thinking about trying to build a trickster character again (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?562945-Creating-a-Trickster-AT-Sorc-Bard-Multiclass-Homebrew-subclass). The suite of abilities I'd imagine on a trickster include illusions, enchantments, telepathy, teleportation, telekinesis, and shapeshifting. The most efficient way to get most of what I want with a minimal level investment seems to be with a GOO chainlock:

1st Level - Telepathy. One-way, but it's discrete (no overt spell components).
2nd Level - Infinite Silent Image and Disguise Self.
3rd Level - A minion that can fly, turn invisible, and shapeshift, all at will. This alone allows me to do an awful lot of really neat things.
5th Level - A third invocation for Voice of the Chain Master. This is about as close to being in two places as you can get, though not perfect.

These, along with the spells and cantrips I learn, get me a lot of the basic tricks I'd want on a trickster character. The question is, where do I go from here?

One option is to stick with a straight warlock. In for a dime, in for a dollar, as they say. With this option, I could get Agonizing Blast and use EB. But would I have to? I feel like the trickster would err more on the side of using control spells over EB spam. And if I skip on EB then I'm sure I can find good invocations to pick up instead of Agonizing Blast. However, warlocks just don't get enough spell slots to sling spells around like a wizard does, which is why most of them fall back onto EB spam.

My other thought was to veer into sorcerer or bard for the last 15 levels. Sorcerer gets me Subtle Spell and lots of cantrips, bard gets me Expertise, Vicious Mockery, and Magical Secrets. However, this only leaves me with three invocations, just enough for Misty Visions, Mask of Many Faces, and Voice of the Chain Master. This means no Agonizing Blast, which means there's not much reason to grab EB over other damage cantrips, and Vicious Mockery would be on brand.

Heck, going wizard 15, either Illusionist or Enchanter, could also be an interesting path, though I'd be split between CHA and INT.

How does a non-bladelock do without EB? I know Celestials can get away with Sacred Flame, but what about other patrons? What's your fallback when you run out of spell slots?

as far as control goes, just because you go EB, doesn't mean you need to go AB. repelling blast can be pretty solid control if you're creative with it. its not great..but then its at-will so...no **** its not great. but it can certainly help control the flow of battle.

other ideas: hex, to give them disadvantage on the int checks needed to disbelieve many illusions. (which...i assume you're planning to use as a 'trickster' type.
-there are obviously some solid area control spells like hunger of hadar (which would pair nicely with at-will forced movement), any summoning spell can act as an area denial spell too. However, i personally tend to dislike them simply because they also expand initiative which adds a bit more grind to combat.
-then there are good crowd control spells like hold person (which benefits from spell slot leveling...yay!

obviously if you stick it out with warlock you can eventually get things like 'hold monster' at will ((against outsider type creatures)).

if you're ok with multiclassing, then going a couple more level to pick up EB/repelling blast. you can then MC sorc to get quicken spell. which doubles the amount of forced movement you have. the big downside being that spell slot progression grinds to a halt at that point so you're stuck with low level tools for a loooong time. which isn't neccisarily a bad thing, as it does still eventually get you things like wall of fire (another fun use for forced movement?).

[CTurbo]

I have a character idea similar to what you're talking about except I want to combine it with some Rogue Assassin levels to cover the damage aspect. I'd probably take GOO, but not sold on it. Personally I would go Blade so I can be "unarmed" but at the same time always armed to pull off Sneak Attack when needed. But Chain pact would be great too. My build will have EB as a just in case measure, but I won't be able to fit any of the EB invocations in nor would any of them be important to the build. I would love to fit in some Sorcerer for Subtle spell but lets face it, there won't be time or space for it.

[DevilMcam]

For your damage option you could go Shillelagh+Blade cantrip from pack of the tome as well. It doesn't cost you any invocations. Celestial can apply his bonus damage to the green flame blade as well.
But you may want to invest a feat in medium armor+shield proficiency to get some studyness if you go melee.

[Crgaston]

As a straight Warlock, Chill Touch or Toll the Dead make viable fallback damage options.


I agree that Bard is also the best fit thematically for a Trickster. Wear your disguise kit under your Disguise Self!

The Level 3 Glamour Bard features are incredibly on point for you. Charm people for an hour without using a spell, or them even knowing you tried to charm them? Distracting your enemies so that (Cha mod) of your allies can reposition without drawing AoO, and they get THP too? Yes please.


While Bard doesn't give you anything in resourceless damage unless you go Valor or Swords, depending on your party composition and your GM's encounters-per-day habits, you could do very well in low-resource debuffing/control with as few as 3-6 levels of Bard by using your non-pact spell slots to cast Bane and then following up with Vicious Mockery, or throwing around a few more Dissonant Whispers.

[col_impact]

Empowered spell metamagic. Its a solid option if you want to feel like an evocation wizard.

[jas61292]

Contrary to what you will often hear, you do not need agonizing blast or even eldritch blast to be an effective character as a Warlock. In my group, Warlock has been one of the most common classes (and as a straight class, no less), and yet I can only remember one time that someone took agonizing blast. Not even having eldritch blast was also not uncommon. In my current campaign one of my players is even playing a trickster type character that is a GOO lock with the Silent Image and Disguise Self invocations, and they have been great. This character does have eldritch blast, but not agonizing blast.

I never once felt that a warlock character was holding the party back. Infinite use of utility spells, and some nice control options on their list means they can play an important role regardless of EB. I personally think that a lot of people don't get the recommended number of short rests most of the time, and so they feel they have to always just have a Warlock be a magic archer. But with a normal amount of rests and invocations that expand options, Warlocks can do a ton without having to always just cantrip spam.

[Tanarii]

Contrary to what you will often hear, you do not need agonizing blast or even eldritch blast to be an effective character as a Warlock. In my group, Warlock has been one of the most common classes (and as a straight class, no less), and yet I can only remember one time that someone took agonizing blast.I'll back this statement up. I had many players that did not take agonizing blast over the course of a multi-year open table campaign.


Not even having eldritch blast was also not uncommon.Otoh this was uncommon IMX. Some players wouldn't take it at level 1, but most of those did at level 4.

[Addaran]

Non-EB non-blade warlock are viable. But you're asking specifically for chainlock.

Tome can easily pick shillelagh and a SCAG cantrip. Very effective, just suck when you miss cause it's all or nothing compared to blade (two attacks) or EB ( up to 4 attacks)

Chainlock, i haven't tried. A few things though. You can easily save invocation picks while still taking EB. No need to pick agonizing or repelling if you don't want. Repelling is pretty amazing though. Lots of control that isn't resisted.

Without AB, EB is still better then other cantrips in general, at least for damage. Force damage is resisted by almost nothing. 1 attack vs a lot ( if you compare with firebolt, since it's same damage dice) depends if you get a lot of help action for advantage on one attack or not. And if you use hex.

Chilling Touch and Ray of Frost are good cantrips with side effects.

Infinite Disguise Self and Silent Image are some of my favorite invocations, good choices, especially for a trickster.


Contrary to what you will often hear, you do not need agonizing blast or even eldritch blast to be an effective character as a Warlock. In my group, Warlock has been one of the most common classes (and as a straight class, no less), and yet I can only remember one time that someone took agonizing blast. Not even having eldritch blast was also not uncommon. In my current campaign one of my players is even playing a trickster type character that is a GOO lock with the Silent Image and Disguise Self invocations, and they have been great. This character does have eldritch blast, but not agonizing blast.

I never once felt that a warlock character was holding the party back. Infinite use of utility spells, and some nice control options on their list means they can play an important role regardless of EB. I personally think that a lot of people don't get the recommended number of short rests most of the time, and so they feel they have to always just have a Warlock be a magic archer. But with a normal amount of rests and invocations that expand options, Warlocks can do a ton without having to always just cantrip spam.

They really don't have to just cantrip spam, but not having any attack cantrip seems a stretch. Even with good short rest, you'll have about one slot per fight. Since silent image is not always appropriate, you'll often have 2-3 rounds of non spell casting to fill with something. Of course, it doesn't have to be EB.

[Spectrulus]

... How does a non-bladelock do without EB? I know Celestials can get away with Sacred Flame, but what about other patrons? What's your fallback when you run out of spell slots?

A commonly overlooked option for tier 1 play is Magic Stone. Bonus action cast, you make 3 stones now use your spell modifier to hit for 1d6+ Mod, and these can be shared if needed.

From levels 1-4 with no invocation investment we're talking 1d6+3-5 damage each, averaging 6.5-8.5 a hit.

Elderitch blast at these levels is 1d10 or 5.5 damage a hit, or with the invocation 1d10+3-5 or between 8.5 - 10.5.

Honestly Magic stone is very viable early on, only doing a point less than a longbow.

Talking tier 2-4 play though, it does of course fall off due to lack of scaling. It does seem Wizards really pushed that cantrip to be the core of Warlock, which it was in most editions.

[Vogie]

If you don't want to be locked into GOO, you could instead use a Pseudodragon familiar as a Telepathy hub. You could also use a race with a telepathy variant, such as Kalashtar or Ghostwise Halfling.

Celestial will eventually give you Charisma to damage via Sacred flame (free) or GFB (at the cost of a cantrip). However, with the spell sniper feat, you can actually GFB with a whip, which would look pretty badass (1d4+dex+GFB+CHA!), in addition to adding another cantrip to your repertoire early on - a total of 5! (2 for warlock, 2 from Celestial Pact & 1 from SS).

If you didn't want to go straight Warlock, a single level in death cleric would allow you to twin your Chilling Touch or Toll of the Dead, as well as provide some extra LR spell slots and martial weapons. Alternatively, 3 levels of Treachery Paladin gives you weapon & armor proficiencies, the ability to smite and do minor healing, but also a Straight-up Conjure Duplicate per short rest. On top of, you know, Short Rest Smites powered by the advantage you get from your Chain Familiar.

[Sigreid]

It's not the most optimal, but if you're ok with that it's fine.

[col_impact]

Non-EB non-blade warlock are viable. But you're asking specifically for chainlock.

Tome can easily pick shillelagh and a SCAG cantrip. Very effective, just suck when you miss cause it's all or nothing compared to blade (two attacks) or EB ( up to 4 attacks)


Use Misty Visions to generate unseen advantage. That should make loading up for one shot better and don't forget unseen advantage gives you free disengage action so you can fight like a swashbuckler. Get second attack from PAM/ Warcaster AoO's. Whip is handy too.

[col_impact]

A commonly overlooked option for tier 1 play is Magic Stone. Bonus action cast, you make 3 stones now use your spell modifier to hit for 1d6+ Mod, and these can be shared if needed.

From levels 1-4 with no invocation investment we're talking 1d6+3-5 damage each, averaging 6.5-8.5 a hit.

Elderitch blast at these levels is 1d10 or 5.5 damage a hit, or with the invocation 1d10+3-5 or between 8.5 - 10.5.

Honestly Magic stone is very viable early on, only doing a point less than a longbow.

Talking tier 2-4 play though, it does of course fall off due to lack of scaling. It does seem Wizards really pushed that cantrip to be the core of Warlock, which it was in most editions.

Magic Stone is wonderful for your minions, such as a Tiny Servant or Skeleton Archer since it adds your wisdom bonus on top of their bonuses. So it is fantastic in Tier 4 play.

[JNAProductions]

Magic Stone is wonderful for your minions, such as a Tiny Servant or Skeleton Archer since it adds your wisdom bonus on top of their bonuses. So it is fantastic in Tier 4 play.

No. No it does not.


You touch one to three pebbles and imbue them with magic. You or someone else can make a ranged spell attack with one of the pebbles by throwing it or hurling it with a sling. If thrown, it has a range of 60 feet. If someone else attacks with the pebble, that attacker adds your spellcasting ability modifier, not the attacker’s, to the attack roll. On a hit, the target takes bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your spellcasting ability modifier. Hit or miss, the spell then ends on the stone.

If you cast this spell again, the spell ends early on any pebbles still affected by it.

It adds YOUR Spellcasting modifier, but not their Dexterity modifier to any of it.

[col_impact]

No. No it does not.



It adds YOUR Spellcasting modifier, but not their Dexterity modifier to any of it.

I stand corrected and I appreciate your correction. But in Tier 4 what is the average Spellcasting modifier? How much does it improve minion damage? Are the stones considered magical bludgeoning? How many monsters have resistance to that damage?

Is Magic Stone awesome for Tier 4 Minionmancer play, yes or no?

[JNAProductions]

I stand corrected and I appreciate your correction. But in Tier 4 what is the average Spellcasting modifier? How much does it improve minion damage? Are the stones considered magical bludgeoning? How many monsters have resistance to that damage?

Is Magic Stone awesome for Tier 4 Minionmancer play, yes or no?

It's... Decent? You go from Skeletons doing 1d6+2 at +4 to 1d6+5 at +5. Admittedly, damage type is one hell of a lot better, but even then, it's a maximum of three per turn, all standing near you, and at the cost of your bonus action.

I mean, the BIG thing is that it stops you from casting any spells besides cantrips that turn. I've yet to really play a caster in T4, but I'm under the impression that you're generally better off using a big spell (4th level or higher) then plinking for 4d8 plus three minions with rocks. (And considering they're hitting at +5... They're not particularly impressive.)

Now, if you're a Warlock with Animate Dead (such as from the Ravnica background) I can see it being more useful, since your baseline cantrip is better, but since this thread is about NON-Eldritch Blast Warlocks, it's not helpful to the original poster.

[col_impact]

What is your spellcasting modifier again? Does that have Tier 4 proficiency?

Does Magic Stone interfere with Sanctuary in play and Dodge Action while keeping Counterspell up?

[JNAProductions]

Does Magic Stone interfere with Sanctuary in play and Dodge Action and keeping Counterspell up?

Arguably, yes.


If the warded creature makes an Attack or casts a spell that affects an enemy creature, this spell ends.

Bolding mine. Does Magic Stone affect an enemy creature? Not until it hits, which might take a while given the +5 hit-bonus, but once it does, that's your spell affecting an enemy creature.

Edit: To avoid making this entire post a tangent, OP!

I once played a level 1 Warlock who used dual-wielding daggers and Armor of Agathys to great effect. Not really viable at higher levels, since you ain't going bladelock, but it might be good for the low levels.

[col_impact]

Arguably, yes.



Bolding mine. Does Magic Stone affect an enemy creature? Not until it hits, which might take a while given the +5 hit-bonus, but once it does, that's your spell affecting an enemy creature.

Edit: To avoid making this entire post a tangent, OP!

I once played a level 1 Warlock who used dual-wielding daggers and Armor of Agathys to great effect. Not really viable at higher levels, since you ain't going bladelock, but it might be good for the low levels.

How are you calculatin spell attack?

For the OP I would recommend Wizardin over Warlock for ultimate trickster.

[JNAProductions]

How are you calculatin spell attack?


You touch one to three pebbles and imbue them with magic. You or someone else can make a ranged spell attack with one of the pebbles by throwing it or hurling it with a sling. If thrown, it has a range of 60 feet. If someone else attacks with the pebble, that attacker adds your spellcasting ability modifier, not the attacker’s, to the attack roll. On a hit, the target takes bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your spellcasting ability modifier. Hit or miss, the spell then ends on the stone.

If you cast this spell again, the spell ends early on any pebbles still affected by it.

But, spell attack rolls DO add proficiency modifier.

So it'd actually be +7, since Skeletons have a +2. That's my bad.

[col_impact]

But, spell attack rolls DO add proficiency modifier.

So it'd actually be +7, since Skeletons have a +2. That's my bad.

Does Magic Stone go up in value?

How does Magic Stone shut off Sanctuary while Conjure Animals does not?

[JNAProductions]

Does Magic Stone go up in value?

Not enough. It's not great damage, at a not great hit chance, requires minions that are gonna be vulnerable to AoEs bunched up with you, and stops you from casting spells other than cantrips.

It's better than I thought, sure... Just not by much.

And Conjure Animals WOULD shut down Sanctuary, by RAW, as soon as they hit an enemy. Incorrect, my bad.

[col_impact]

Not enough. It's not great damage, at a not great hit chance, requires minions that are gonna be vulnerable to AoEs bunched up with you, and stops you from casting spells other than cantrips.

It's better than I thought, sure... Just not by much.

And Conjure Animals WOULD shut down Sanctuary, by RAW, as soon as they hit an enemy.

Not according to Jeremy Crawford or AL ruleset.

[JNAProductions]

Not according to Jeremy Crawford or AL ruleset.

Ah, wait a minute, I see where I'm in error. If you CAST the spell while Sanctuary is up, then it matters if you affect an enemy creature.

If you pre-cast Conjure Animals, you aren't casting a spell that affects an enemy while Sanctuary is up. But, Magic Stone IS cast while Sanctuary is active, meaning it'd break the spell.

Okay, that's my bad.

[col_impact]

Ah, wait a minute, I see where I'm in error. If you CAST the spell while Sanctuary is up, then it matters if you affect an enemy creature.

If you pre-cast Conjure Animals, you aren't casting a spell that affects an enemy while Sanctuary is up. But, Magic Stone IS cast while Sanctuary is active, meaning it'd break the spell.

Okay, that's my bad.

Is a stone a creature?

[JNAProductions]

Is a stone a creature?

No.

Is a creature affected by a spell you cast while Sanctuary is up?

[col_impact]

No.

Is a creature affected by a spell you cast while Sanctuary is up?

Nope. Just a stone. Per Conjure Animals ruling.

[JNAProductions]

Nope. Just a stone. Per Conjure Animals ruling.

No, Conjure Animals is cast BEFORE Sanctuary is up. Magic Stone is not.

That being said, I think this thread has been derailed QUITE enough. If you want to make a new thread about Sanctuary, be my guest, but we should really stop posting that in THIS thread.

[Greywander]

as far as control goes, just because you go EB, doesn't mean you need to go AB. repelling blast can be pretty solid control if you're creative with it.
Good point, Repelling Blast by itself does offer some nice control, which is what I said I was looking for. I can't help but feel like I'd be obligated to get at least Agonizing Blast, though, as it would roughly double my damage with EB. Actually, I think a full-EB warlock that gets all 5 EB invocations would be pretty fun to play, but it doesn't leave you with enough invocations for out-of-combat stuff, and doesn't fit with this specific character concept.



if you're ok with multiclassing, then going a couple more level to pick up EB/repelling blast. you can then MC sorc to get quicken spell. which doubles the amount of forced movement you have. the big downside being that spell slot progression grinds to a halt at that point so you're stuck with low level tools for a loooong time. which isn't neccisarily a bad thing, as it does still eventually get you things like wall of fire (another fun use for forced movement?).
Yeah, this is a big point against multiclassing. If I start with 5 levels in warlock, then by 10th level I still only have up to 5th level abilities (albeit, from two classes). Everyone else is casting 5th level spells, while I only have 3rd level spells. Conventional wisdom is to grab EB and Agonizing Blast for a superior damage cantrip option which will carry you through to the higher levels where things even out, so if you're not doing that then it feels like you'd be at a disadvantage.


For your damage option you could go Shillelagh+Blade cantrip from pack of the tome as well. It doesn't cost you any invocations. Celestial can apply his bonus damage to the green flame blade as well.
But you may want to invest a feat in medium armor+shield proficiency to get some studyness if you go melee.
This would actually be pretty solid, though as you say you might want medium armor and a shield. If you don't want to burn a feat, a cleric dip is another good way to pick those up, and it gives a lot of other nice features, too.

It seems that tomelocks can do already without EB, but chainlocks have a little more trouble...


I agree that Bard is also the best fit thematically for a Trickster. Wear your disguise kit under your Disguise Self!
And under your disguise kit, cast Alter Self. Take the Charlatan background to get a false identity. Quadruple disguise!


The Level 3 Glamour Bard features are incredibly on point for you. Charm people for an hour without using a spell, or them even knowing you tried to charm them? Distracting your enemies so that (Cha mod) of your allies can reposition without drawing AoO, and they get THP too? Yes please.

While Bard doesn't give you anything in resourceless damage unless you go Valor or Swords, depending on your party composition and your GM's encounters-per-day habits, you could do very well in low-resource debuffing/control with as few as 3-6 levels of Bard by using your non-pact spell slots to cast Bane and then following up with Vicious Mockery, or throwing around a few more Dissonant Whispers.
Yeah, I'm starting to lean toward warlock 5 / glamour bard 15. Levels 6 to 10 would be somewhat tricky, as I'd have to rely on lower level spells to help the party.


Contrary to what you will often hear, you do not need agonizing blast or even eldritch blast to be an effective character as a Warlock. [...] Infinite use of utility spells, and some nice control options on their list means they can play an important role regardless of EB. I personally think that a lot of people don't get the recommended number of short rests most of the time, and so they feel they have to always just have a Warlock be a magic archer. But with a normal amount of rests and invocations that expand options, Warlocks can do a ton without having to always just cantrip spam.
That's good to hear. I think a lot of us (myself included) get caught up on the theory crafting that we make assumptions despite having no actual experience with something. This does leave me with the question of what a warlock without EB actually does when they're not casting a leveled spell. Concentration being what it is, I'd expect you to frequently open up with a good concentration spell then spam EB for the rest of the fight. You could cast non-concentrations spells, but the limited slots of a warlock make this hard to sustain, especially if you don't get that short rest between fights.


Non-EB non-blade warlock are viable. But you're asking specifically for chainlock.
That does seem to be the crux of the issue making this difficult. It's not that I won't be effective at all, as I could be having my familiar doing things like dropping caltrops or ball bearings. But not getting EB seems to be inherently unoptimized, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of other options that get close to the effectiveness of EB + Agonizing + Repelling Blast. Now, it's true I'm giving up combat effectiveness for utility effectiveness, so it's not like I'm getting nothing, but since combat is such a big focus of D&D I want to be at least passable at it.


Without AB, EB is still better then other cantrips in general, at least for damage. Force damage is resisted by almost nothing. 1 attack vs a lot ( if you compare with firebolt, since it's same damage dice) depends if you get a lot of help action for advantage on one attack or not. And if you use hex.

Chilling Touch and Ray of Frost are good cantrips with side effects.
I suppose. I think the issue here is that most casters get enough spell slots that they often have something other than a cantrip they can cast. Cantrips are their fallback, not something they use on the regular. Warlocks don't have that many spell slots. That's why EB with a few invocations is so dang strong, because it is kind of expected that they'll cast one or two spells then EB spam the rest of the fight. It's not their fallback, it's their bread and butter.


They really don't have to just cantrip spam, but not having any attack cantrip seems a stretch. Even with good short rest, you'll have about one slot per fight. Since silent image is not always appropriate, you'll often have 2-3 rounds of non spell casting to fill with something. Of course, it doesn't have to be EB.
Silent Image also uses concentration, which means you can't be concentrating on another spell. You could use Minor Illusion, but the smaller area would make it difficult to affect more than one creature. Still, if you can get a creature to waste their turn, it could make a big difference. As with all illusions, YMMV depending on how your DM handles it.

I guess the main thing is that I'm just not sure what I would be doing, if not EB spam. I could do another damage cantrip, sure, but that's a much inferior option.
Now, we can't really consider homebrew when it comes to theorycraft builds, as homebrew only really applies when the character will actually see play and you can ask the DM. But if homebrew were to be considered, I've got a homebrew invocation that would make Vicious Mockery better, along with a feat that gives extra invocations. This would work well for the trickster concept, but again, we have to assume homebrew by default is off the table.


It's not the most optimal, but if you're ok with that it's fine.
True, but I just want to make sure I could carry my weight in the party. Being good at out-of-combat stuff is fine, but in D&D all roads eventually lead to combat. Unless you can get the whole table on board with a Combat as War mentality.


For the OP I would recommend Wizardin over Warlock for ultimate trickster.
Wizard I get, as both illusionists and enchanters can make pretty good tricksters. But what does paladin add to the mix? Paladins are usually toward the bottom of the list of things I think of when I think of tricksters.

[jas61292]

Otoh this was uncommon IMX. Some players wouldn't take it at level 1, but most of those did at level 4.

I do believe taking EB was more common than not, but I can distinctly remember a Warlock that used Chill Touch primarily, and another that was Pact of the Tome and grabbed Ray of Frost for their primary damage cantrip.


They really don't have to just cantrip spam, but not having any attack cantrip seems a stretch. Even with good short rest, you'll have about one slot per fight. Since silent image is not always appropriate, you'll often have 2-3 rounds of non spell casting to fill with something. Of course, it doesn't have to be EB.

Absolutely. I wasn't trying to say that any Warlock I have played with or DMed for didn't have a damage cantrip. I just meant that they didn't see damage cantrips as their main focus. All casters, in my experience, end up using cantrips more often than not. But I find that while on forums, you would get the impression that Warlocks only ever cast spells to set up cantrip spam, in actual play, most Warlocks I have seen would rather have the spells and invocations be the focus, and have the cantrips just be a fall back, kinda like every other caster.

[col_impact]

Wizard I get, as both illusionists and enchanters can make pretty good tricksters. But what does paladin add to the mix? Paladins are usually toward the bottom of the list of things I think of when I think of tricksters.

Sorry. You are right. Wizardin is my Thor build.

Now his brother Loki is 17 illusionist/knowledge cleric 1-3/moon druid 0-2

Yuan-ti or vHuman for SCAG options (Booming Blade, Arcana Cleric).

Ghostwise halfling is a fun option too. Get a Ring of Spell Storing and your charms, suggestions, and detect thoughts are undetectable.

[Crgaston]

Good point, Repelling Blast by itself does offer some nice control, which is what I said I was looking for. I can't help but feel like I'd be obligated to get at least Agonizing Blast, though, as it would roughly double my damage with EB. Actually, I think a full-EB warlock that gets all 5 EB invocations would be pretty fun to play, but it doesn't leave you with enough invocations for out-of-combat stuff, and doesn't fit with this specific character concept.

...

Yeah, this is a big point against multiclassing. If I start with 5 levels in warlock, then by 10th level I still only have up to 5th level abilities (albeit, from two classes). Everyone else is casting 5th level spells, while I only have 3rd level spells. Conventional wisdom is to grab EB and Agonizing Blast for a superior damage cantrip option which will carry you through to the higher levels where things even out, so if you're not doing that then it feels like you'd be at a disadvantage.

...


Yeah, I'm starting to lean toward warlock 5 / glamour bard 15. Levels 6 to 10 would be somewhat tricky, as I'd have to rely on lower level spells to help the party.

...


True, but I just want to make sure I could carry my weight in the party. Being good at out-of-combat stuff is fine, but in D&D all roads eventually lead to combat. Unless you can get the whole table on board with a Combat as War mentality.



It seems like your conflict is feeling like you have to do damage to help the party, and that if you take EB, you'd feel obligated to take AB, which represents 1/3 of the invocations you'll have to pull off your Trickster theme? And also that multiclassing will inhibit your contribution to the party in terms of combat?

Fear not.

If you do decide to take EB and an invocation... I have played a Warlock to L9 with Repelling Blast but not Agonizing, and while the damage boost is notable (and delicious), if I had to choose between the two I would 10/10 take Repelling. Especially if you have other casters who can create static hazards, or if your DM likes to grapple characters (forced movement breaks a grapple). You can even set up your own hazard with Create Bonfire. Lining up shots to knock foes into your Bonfire is eminently more entertaining than just getting an extra 4-5 damage. (But then you've got 2 damage cantrips, so maybe not what you're looking for).


If you go Warlock 5/Bard X, starting at L6 you can have Bane for your Concentration spell opener. While it doesn't sound impressive, giving up to 5 enemies (because you can use your Pact Magic slots) -1d4 on attack rolls and saves adds up to a fair amount of damage mitigation and increased damage/control from the other casters in your party. And it's a Cha save. You can then spam Vicious Mockery to give one enemy Disadvantage in addition to the -1d4. It may feel like it doesn't scale, but it does, because the harder your enemies hit, the more damage you prevent. Your party will feel helped every time they don't get hit, and your DM will hate you :)

And you'll still have whatever Warlock spells to choose from.

Your Dissonant Whispers will also continue to scale from 6-10 because your allies' opportunity attacks will be more potent. Your Rogue and Pally will quickly learn to flank the most threatening opponent so you can make it run away and draw two AoO's while dealing 3-5d6 Psychic damage in the process.

At 8th level is when you finally catch up to full-caster in terms of number of spell slots (assuming 2 SR/day, and discounting Arcane Recovery and such). It is also when you get Mantle of Inspiration, which is a FANTASTIC contribution to your party in combat. You also get Blindness, one of the few non-concentration persistent debuffs in the game.

So, I guess what I'm getting at is go ahead and play the character you want, and don't worry about causing direct damage. All the mitigation you will be providing will be saving the Cleric healing slots she can instead use on Spirit Guardians or Guiding Bolt, and you'll be enabling your martials to do more damage and stay in the fight longer. Start counting the hits you negate and the AoO damage you facilitate instead of your direct damage and you'll feel like a boss.

[Greywander]

Sorry. You are right. Wizardin is my Thor build.

Now his brother Loki is 17 illusionist/knowledge cleric 1-3/moon druid 0-2

Yuan-ti or vHuman for SCAG options (Booming Blade, Arcana Cleric).

Ghostwise halfling is a fun option too. Get a Ring of Spell Storing and your charms, suggestions, and detect thoughts are undetectable.
Was it really necessary to quote my entire post? :smallwink:
Your Loki build does look interesting. The druid's Wild Shape was one of the features I really wanted to get, but it just wasn't worth the level investment required. As for cleric, I'm a fan of Knowledge clerics in general, but for this specific case the Trickery cleric's Invoke Duplicity is another feature I wanted to grab. Again, though, it just wasn't worth the level investment.

Someone else mentioned the ghostwise halfling as well, pointing out that if I take a race with telepathy then I wouldn't need to go GOO for my patron. It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure which patron I would take instead. Archfey gives an ability that fits pretty well, but hexblade also provides some decent benefits as well as a curse (which fits the trickery concept). I was actually leaning toward a changeling, though, as they have a lite version of Alter Self as a racial ability. Yuan-ti's also have a racial feat (I think it's unofficial, though; seems to be written by the creators of D&D Beyond) that lets them turn into a snake, so yay for more shapeshifting.


It seems like your conflict is feeling like you have to do damage to help the party, and that if you take EB, you'd feel obligated to take AB, which represents 1/3 of the invocations you'll have to pull off your Trickster theme? And also that multiclassing will inhibit your contribution to the party in terms of combat?

Fear not.
I feel like I'm about to receive a biblical revelation.

Also, damage is only part of it. The truth is that there is crap in the way of support cantrips. You have utility cantrips, which generally don't help in combat unless you're really creative and your DM doesn't shut you down. Then you have damage cantrips, some of which offer a small amount of support. But there are no dedicated support cantrips except Resistance (Vicious Mockery is about as close as it gets). If you're casting a damage cantrip anyway, why pass up the chance to double your damage?


If you do decide to take EB and an invocation... I have played a Warlock to L9 with Repelling Blast but not Agonizing, and while the damage boost is notable (and delicious), if I had to choose between the two I would 10/10 take Repelling. Especially if you have other casters who can create static hazards, or if your DM likes to grapple characters (forced movement breaks a grapple). You can even set up your own hazard with Create Bonfire. Lining up shots to knock foes into your Bonfire is eminently more entertaining than just getting an extra 4-5 damage. (But then you've got 2 damage cantrips, so maybe not what you're looking for).
I suppose this would be a good reason to pass up doubling your damage. I've heard that Repelling Blast is really strong because it doesn't have a size limit and doesn't offer a save. You hit, they move, period. A second damage cantrip isn't bad to have, either, though not much resists force damage, and warlocks (and bards) don't get a lot of cantrips. There's a lot of other cantrips I'd rather have to help make the trickster theme work, such as Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion, Friends, Mage Hand, Dancing Lights, Thaumaturgy, and, of course, Vicious Mockery. Any or all of the four elemental cantrips would also be helpful, but I can't get all of these cantrips even with Magic Initiate; it would require a few dips into different classes.

If I have an extra feat lying around, I could always grab Spell Sniper, but I'd probably get Magic Initiate first. In fact, I suspect I'd want to grab Magic Initiate as early as 4th level (or 1st, if the DM gave everyone a free feat at 1st level as some do, or if I went Variant Human).


If you go Warlock 5/Bard X, starting at L6 you can have Bane for your Concentration spell opener. While it doesn't sound impressive, giving up to 5 enemies (because you can use your Pact Magic slots) -1d4 on attack rolls and saves adds up to a fair amount of damage mitigation and increased damage/control from the other casters in your party. And it's a Cha save. You can then spam Vicious Mockery to give one enemy Disadvantage in addition to the -1d4. It may feel like it doesn't scale, but it does, because the harder your enemies hit, the more damage you prevent. Your party will feel helped every time they don't get hit, and your DM will hate you :)
Is Bane really the best I can do? :smalltongue: This actually sounds pretty solid, though you'll have to assume at least a few creatures will pass the save against Bane. Not super flashy, but I get to basically sit back and mock the enemies while my party tears into them. And actually, that save penalty could be really killer if the other casters are slinging out save-or-suck spells. It would feel amazing when that 1d4 penalty makes the difference between whether or not the wizard's Hold Person works.


Your Dissonant Whispers will also continue to scale from 6-10 because your allies' opportunity attacks will be more potent. Your Rogue and Pally will quickly learn to flank the most threatening opponent so you can make it run away and draw two AoO's while dealing 3-5d6 Psychic damage in the process.
This is also on brand and would work nicely. It's only a 1st level spell, so as I level it shouldn't eat too much into my spell slots. I imagine it would trigger the extra damage from Booming Blade as well, if, say, the rogue or someone else were to pick it up.


So, I guess what I'm getting at is go ahead and play the character you want, and don't worry about causing direct damage. All the mitigation you will be providing will be saving the Cleric healing slots she can instead use on Spirit Guardians or Guiding Bolt, and you'll be enabling your martials to do more damage and stay in the fight longer. Start counting the hits you negate and the AoO damage you facilitate instead of your direct damage and you'll feel like a boss.
Thanks for this, it's actually pretty encouraging, and highlighted some tactics I overlooked.

[col_impact]

Was it really necessary to quote my entire post? :smallwink:
Your Loki build does look interesting. The druid's Wild Shape was one of the features I really wanted to get, but it just wasn't worth the level investment required. As for cleric, I'm a fan of Knowledge clerics in general, but for this specific case the Trickery cleric's Invoke Duplicity is another feature I wanted to grab. Again, though, it just wasn't worth the level investment.

Someone else mentioned the ghostwise halfling as well, pointing out that if I take a race with telepathy then I wouldn't need to go GOO for my patron. It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure which patron I would take instead. Archfey gives an ability that fits pretty well, but hexblade also provides some decent benefits as well as a curse (which fits the trickery concept). I was actually leaning toward a changeling, though, as they have a lite version of Alter Self as a racial ability. Yuan-ti's also have a racial feat (I think it's unofficial, though; seems to be written by the creators of D&D Beyond) that lets them turn into a snake, so yay for more shapeshifting.


I feel like I'm about to receive a biblical revelation.


I would go 17 wizard - illusion or divination. Depends on whether you want to play more towards insane luck or green lantern creation abilities. I see tricksters as lucky.

Ghostwise halfling for telepathy. Also halfling luck. Pick up lucky feat eventually. Get deception from background. Modify Skill is a spell that grants Expertise. That combined with portent dice means you should be able to lie your way out of anything.

1 knowledge cleric or arcana cleric. Life Cleric unlocks insane combos but I see more of a scientist in a trickster. Knowledge of the way things work.

2 moon druid.


You can do interesting things with alter self and wild shape since wildshape is effectively concentration free enlarge/reduce.

You want 17 levels in wizard to unlock Shapechange. Learn all the monsters and you unlock concentration free shapechange. I won't spoil it.

Just having wildshape and wizard together makes you an escape artist with no equal.


Honorable mention goes to 3 GOO Warlock/ 17 Illusionist. Be the best illusionist. However that is more Mephisto in my mind. But maybe that potent build suits you.

I see tricksters as being more like the Road Runner in WB cartoons or Coyote in Native American stories. Skinwalkers even.

[kazaryu]

Good point, Repelling Blast by itself does offer some nice control, which is what I said I was looking for. I can't help but feel like I'd be obligated to get at least Agonizing Blast, though, as it would roughly double my damage with EB. Actually, I think a full-EB warlock that gets all 5 EB invocations would be pretty fun to play, but it doesn't leave you with enough invocations for out-of-combat stuff, and doesn't fit with this specific character concept.



i mean, it does. but if you're choosing to play a control fighting style, then you're not focusing on damage anyway, yes? by that same logic, why bother picking up illusion spells when you could instead improve your damage? im not trying to be facetious, i get where you're coming from. agonizing blast is an attractive option. im just pointing out the trap that warlocks naturally create. you're already picking options that are subotimal from a dpr perspective, ignoring AB in favor of RB is just one more choice.

now if you were to continue as a warlock then grasp of hadar/lance of lethargy could be nice, although unfortuinately only work 1/turn. meanwhile if you instead only do a small 4 level dip in sorcerer, you can still get quicken spell, and a pool thats big enought to quicken a spell twice before needing to burn spell slots. shadow sorcerer also gives you a D/DS type option



When you reach 3rd level in this class, you learn the darkness spell, which doesnÂ’t count against your number of sorcerer spells known. In addition, you can cast it by spending 2 sorcery points or by expending a spell slot. If you cast it with sorcery points, you can see through the darkness created by the spell.


so thats a pretty nice control ability
it also gives you a 1/lr use of the...relentless rage? the 'i don't wanna die' barbarian feature. which is always nice.

storm sorcerer means you cna reposition yourself, which isn't horrible (especially if you're using EB for control. since the forced movement is in a set direction.).

and at 4 levels you're actually not losing any ASIs. (although obviously that 5th level will always sit there looking hella juicy).

this also makes a nice counterpoint (imo) to the downside of multiclassing. yes, you'll spend 5 levels getting effectively nothing new (although obviously the options you have will expand) in terms of spell levels. you'll still be increasing your ability to quicken EB and shove people around the map. and you'll be picking up even more origin features. (like hound of ill omen at lvl 6 sorcerer, which is brilliant as a lead up to dropping a fat hunger of hadar or crown of madness or similar control spell.)

another solid argument for dipping sorcerer, subtle spell. what better metamagic for a trickster?


Conventional wisdom is to grab EB and Agonizing Blast for a superior damage cantrip option which will carry you through to the higher levels where things even out, so if you're not doing that then it feels like you'd be at a disadvantage

i disagree. for one, as i've pointed out your build is already not focused on damage. yes, your trading damage for utility, but its still combat utility. if you're looking for a trickster/control type then you want options to play with. so sure, AB is good damage, but it also doesnt *add* anything to the build. its boring. you get some damage out of your control spells (like hunger of hadar) and EB. but you also get to **** with the enemies plans. which is the point.

actually having just re-read it, hunger of hadar is actually really thematically in line with repelling blast anyway (i.e. reducing effective movement).

[Sigreid]

What I meant was that even in combat you'll do ok, but won't be optimized. If the rest of your party isn't all about maximizing, you'll be fine. If the rest of your party has most of the combat nailed down and you can afford to contribute just a little bit less, you'll be fine. If your party counts on everyone being heavily optimized for a brutal combat campaign, you'll need to do something different.

[Warlush]

If your DM likes your character and wants to arrange the game according to your strengths, then you will have a blast. No pun intended.

[Greywander]

It might make more sense to start as a bard then MC into warlock for the next 5 levels. This lets me start with Vicious Mockery and Bane, and also nets me more proficiencies than I'd get if I started as a warlock. It does mean getting DEX save proficiency over WIS saves, and I'm not sure that's a good deal. Otherwise, I could dip one level into bard early for Vicious Mockery and Bane, then finish off warlock before coming back to bard.

[Sigreid]

If your DM likes your character and wants to arrange the game according to your strengths, then you will have a blast. No pun intended.

Not necessarily. The game overall is balanced in such a way to be accessible to new and average players. You don't have to be super optimized for its core assumptions. You may need to be for some DM's core assumptions though. I'll grant you that.

[kazaryu]

It might make more sense to start as a bard then MC into warlock for the next 5 levels. This lets me start with Vicious Mockery and Bane, and also nets me more proficiencies than I'd get if I started as a warlock. It does mean getting DEX save proficiency over WIS saves, and I'm not sure that's a good deal. Otherwise, I could dip one level into bard early for Vicious Mockery and Bane, then finish off warlock before coming back to bard.

bard is another option, especially if you wanna go for crowd control instead of area control. if you don't like the saves you can always do 1 level in warlcok then 1 in bard.



Not necessarily. The game overall is balanced in such a way to be accessible to new and average players. You don't have to be super optimized for its core assumptions. You may need to be for some DM's core assumptions though. I'll grant you that.


i think their point was that a control/trickster playstyle is really only effective (and therefore fun) if your Dm actively supports it.

to use an example: repelling blast is really only fun if the dm arranges things in a way that you can use it. if, for the most part, battles are all pitched, and start in range. and nothign really moves, then repelling blast will do little, as 10 feet of movement just gets cancelled on that monsters next turn.

[Nagog]

So the main issue is not having enough Invocations to pick up Agonizing Blast?
Why is that an issue? I find Eldritch Blast is a great cantrip regardless of any invocations attached to it. You could easily pick up Hex as a known spell and later use it with non-Warlock spell slots, and since EB scales with multiple beams rather than multiple damage dice, it procs it multiple times. Being damage dice, some DMs rule that Hex's additional d6 can crit as well, something Agonizing Blast is by default incapable of providing. And with multiple damage rolls, the likelihood of criting also goes up.

Overall, I'd pick it up to keep in the back pocket for a rainy day, especially considering the Silent Image at-will means you won't need Minor Illusion.

[Greywander]

So the main issue is not having enough Invocations to pick up Agonizing Blast?
Partly this, partly the theme of the specific character concept I had in mind. In general, though, there's a lot of neat invocations you could pick up on a warlock if you decided not to get EB. And sure, EB is still the best damage cantrip even without any invocations, but only slightly.


Overall, I'd pick it up to keep in the back pocket for a rainy day, especially considering the Silent Image at-will means you won't need Minor Illusion.
Minor Illusion can make sounds, and doesn't require concentration. You can use it together with Silent Image to make a more elaborate image with sound, or to create two separate illusions at the same time. One spell doesn't replace the other, they both have their pros and cons, and using them together allows you to get the most out of them.