How would flying humanoids build their cities?

[SangoProduction]

I was watching a show where the setting's primary race are of a bunch of flying creatures. And I noticed how they basically only walk to get around. No architecture reflects the ability to fly.

But how would the ability to fly seriously affect our architecture and design choices? (Let's ignore the the magical elements, aside from flight.)

The first though that springs to mind would be verticality. To make things really tall. Or at least, situated up in tree tops, like popular depictions of elf colonies.

But would that really be so likely? Well, the tree tops thing is quite easily probable. But building tall is pretty expensive, difficult, and time consuming (not to mention, given an accident, that's a lot more material crumbling down around you).
Why would you build taller? For us Earth-bound peoples, it would be because you ran out of room to build wide and capture more land, so you're doing the much more difficult thing of building tall. For fliers, protection, and privacy are pretty decent answers. But that could be equally solved by having buildings on stilts so only your flying people can reach them. Or in tree tops. It would certainly take a lot more work than just plopping some twigs on the ground and calling it a home, but less than work than making a large construction just for a common house, and for a well-settled area with a class of dedicated builders, it wouldn't be unheard of. And it's probably slightly less dangerous to live in, thanks to the fact that when a flier feels the house collapsing, they can jump out a window.

What I think is more likely is for flier cities to be really rather dispersed. Once you're in the air, gliding around doesn't take that much effort. You are also much more capable of overseeing your lands from a higher vantage point, leading to people being able to more effectively control and protect more land. Maybe they would have centers of activity for like trading and what not, but the actual residences and work areas would be relatively far away.


But let's assume that they did build tall. Many, many floors. What would a floor plan look like? There would probably be a large emphasis on surface area to the outside, as opposed to inner volume. And the ceilings would be much higher than normal - in inverse proportion to the maneuverability of the expected inhabitants. The better maneuverability, the less height the ceiling *needs* for a flier to feel comfortable. The higher ceilings would also be so that there's room for failure when trying to fly to a new floor. It would be rather troublesome if, half the time, you just overshoot the floor you're trying to get to. As for options for getting to other floors by means of not jumping out of a window, I imagine there would actually be stairs still. But also vertical drops, with openings the size of the wingspan of the inhabitants. This way they can just casually float down to another floor without needing to step outside, or worry about maneuvering back in to the building on that floor.


But these are just my ramblings and random thoughts. What effect do you think personal flight would have on architecture?

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho the main difference is that they don't need roads. So you can use the vertical element anywhere where you find it and abuse it as defense against non-flight races.

Cliffs & Mountains would be an option beside the mentioned trees from you.

Ideally an island with difficult seaways to access and difficult terrain for the grounded races.
Or maybe an old non active Vulcan?

Imho the odder the idea the better here^^l

[ciopo]

what level of technology ( or mageology, I guess) is assumed does make a difference, too.

on some level, I wouldn't think a flying race would necessarily build tall, but they might build their dwelling on some place that can only be accessed by flying?

so the building themselves wouldn't necessarily be taller than "human" building, maybe the points of egress and ingress would not be at ground level.

geographically would be where most of the difference would be, in my mind.

That rocky hill with vertical inclines? prime location!

[Lvl45DM!]

K.A. Applegate wrote a wonderful side story to Animorphs that had the Ketrans, a flying species living on basically Venus, with sulfur lakes and toxic ground. They all lived in giant crystals and every member had to spend a certain amount of time providing lift so the crystals flew. Their class in society was determined by the level of the spar they were on and those too old to fly were given Elder status. The traditional crystal had a minor conflict with a more progressive crystal who are building an airfoil to provide lift without docked time.

[Uncle Pine]

Birds nest in many places (https://celebrateurbanbirds.org/faq/where-do-birds-nest/), some of which are weirder than others. (https://www.boredpanda.com/unusual-bird-nests/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic) Not all birds,whether they can fly for long distances or not, nest in high places: some favour the good old ground.
Assuming the race of flying humanoids in question decided to nest above ground level, I don't find it likely they'd build tall since in most cases carving or redecorating existing and already vertical natural structure would solve most of the issues regarding stability and costs of such a project: fantasy-sized trees can host passageways inside of them and/or rooms and homes disconnected to each other but all possessing outward exits; cliffs and gorges can contain large cave systems; abandoned pre-existing settlements with towers, churches, etc. can be "enlarged" to accomodate for wingspan depending on what kind of material they're made of, for example by getting rid of a non-load-bearing set of wooden stairs no one is going to use.

On the other hand, I like the idea of more scattered and dispersed buildings, both on a housing and settlement level: for a single flying humanoid and/or their family, having one dedicated roofed room for sleeping hanging from or built on top of a tree that is dozens of yards away from the lavatory isn't going to be an issue. With this approach, the architecture of a building ends up looking a lot closer to the home of a wizard who favours stationary portals and teleport spells than a normal one, only with large windows, holes in the walls and drops to move around in place of said portals: the hallways of such a house aren't built, instead using the outside world in their place. On the other hand, bigger structures of the kind that could hold hundreds of people inside, like a council room or a public library, would instead require either a very large aboveground base (i.e. the top of the aforementioned fantasy-sized tree) or to be built on the ground.

[King of Nowhere]

i think they'd actually build cities like anyone else. the main limitations are architectural, that is, building high is much more difficult than building on the ground.
as for looking for safe locations, that's what birds do, but it's much more feasible for an individual than it is for an organized society. where are you even going to find a ravine large enough to host a full city?

plus, another major point to remember is that those guys may be able to fly, but their carts cannot. they still need to transport wares, and using wheels is much more efficient than carrying them on your back. especially given that flying is very energy-intensive.
Also, I think their houses would still feature stairs for those too sick or elderly to fly safely. they could have a main entrance above ground floor, but they'd still have one accessible by foot for practical reasons
not very inspiring perhaps, but the reality of architecture and logistics have nothing to do with whether the occupants can fly.

that said, some minor details could be different. military architecture could take full advantage of flight by avoiding stairs. the enemy has conquered the wall? ok, he still has no way to come down. and he still cannot reach the top of the towers, where your archers are still firing undisturbed. A fortress would rely on roads to get supplies, but it would have bridges that can easily be set on fire in case of attack; resupplying by air is more difficult, but worth it when it hampers the enemy much more than you.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

Let’s assume they’re building wide instead of tall, because engineering is hard; no buildings of over 4 stories, but none shorter than two because the verticality is fun. Doorways on the roofs seem obvious. There may be ground-level entries(the dirt door) as well for deliveries, but that’s not what the family uses. Similarly, there’s roads for supplies, but they’re narrow, winding, and poorly-lit, clearly built as an afterthought and not used by the general populace.
Large, easily-opened windows would make good entries and exits, but I could see an argument instead for the windows being smaller and well-sealed to keep children from leaving/entering without using the rooftop door. Navigating between floors could involve stairs, but instead lets use a dumb waiter system near the dirt door for large loads/visitors, with the central room being a 4-story column that lets people easily fly between levels and is connected to the rooftop entrance.
Upper floors that get more light would be “better”, with lower floors used for storage etc. Similarly, houses in the center of town are probably less desirable than ones on the rim, which have less city around and let you spread your wings easier. Pets that can fly can travel with the family, ones that can’t are easier to contain to the house. Cats are the worst of both worlds and would likely be popular, because cats.

[False God]

Well, it depends on their type of flight, mechanical or magical? Do they fly like angels or like genies?

The former would likely lead to much more spread out architecture(the wingspan for a humanoid is silly huge) with "landing areas". Probably lots of open spaces and open construction design (ie: malls would be open in the middle). Decks and balconies would probably be a lot more common on high-rise structures (assuming they built them).

Their construction of other "walking" elements we find normal would depend on their general desires and design aesthetic, as well as how often they interact with non-flying creatures. A pigeon can fly, but they walk a lot. Different wing shapes make for different types of flying. A society of humming-bird people might have much smaller open spaces and narrower entrances due to their ability to precision-fly. A society of pigeon people might favor more open spaces.

And of course this only addressing bird-people. Beings with insect wings and the ability to hover in place or more easily move in methods that don't require gliding would have an entirely different design aesthetic.

Also keep in mind that flying is (in a way) akin to flapping your arms a lot. Just because it is your primary method of movement doesn't mean it's your only one. Birds and bees walk around, and some are better at it than others. And some like to swim too! Imagine a society of duck-people, they can walk, they can fly, they can swim, they are the Pan!...oh uh wait no that's not how it goes...

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by SangoProduction
Once you're in the air, gliding around doesn't take that much effort.

If you watch birds, they tend not to glide much compared with the time they spend in active flight.

Flying in general is energy-intensive, and even a slight breeze can have strong effects on your speed and direction, which a flying creature has to work hard to counteract. As bipeds we tend not to notice, both because we’re stabilized by contact with the ground and because we’re often protected from the wind by trees, buildings and other ground clutter.

But once you’re in the air, wind is a major factor and gliding is rarely enough to get you where you want to go. Creatures that rely on gliding alone, such as flying squirrels, colugos, etc., don’t make long flights and they always lose altitude.

So there’s a strong incentive to build your dwellings closer together rather than dispersed, because active flight is energy-intensive and it’s more efficient to make shorter trips. There may be other incentives working against this, such as an innate need for physical space around your dwelling; but many birds are colonial nesters (i.e. herons, many seabirds, etc.) and it would be more birdlike, on the whole, for dwellings to be clustered rather than dispersed.

[Biggus]

If you watch birds, they tend not to glide much compared with the time they spend in active flight.


True of small birds, but in general the larger the bird, the more time they spend gliding, with just an occasional flap of the wings to maintain altitude or adjust direction.

Which leads to an important consideration to where they'd settle: the presence of wind and thermal updrafts (assuming they're natural flyers, if magic is involved this becomes much less important obviously).

[PraxisVetli]

K.A. Applegate wrote a wonderful side story to Animorphs that had the Ketrans, a flying species living on basically Venus, with sulfur lakes and toxic ground. They all lived in giant crystals and every member had to spend a certain amount of time providing lift so the crystals flew. Their class in society was determined by the level of the spar they were on and those too old to fly were given Elder status. The traditional crystal had a minor conflict with a more progressive crystal who are building an airfoil to provide lift without docked time.

Whoa what book was that?

[Asmotherion]

well, besides basic architecture being obsolate, doors not neccesarily on ground level for example, everything else should be more or less the same. Stairs would also be optional between levels.

Choosing a high altitude to build makes sence, to protect from predators.

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

.

A very astute take on the question, but I’d add that a flying species would probably use towable balloons or kites for cargo rather than wheeled carts.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Biggus
True of small birds, but in general the larger the bird, the more time they spend gliding, with just an occasional flap of the wings to maintain altitude or adjust direction.

Most birds are small birds, so it’s fair to say that there’s less gliding and more active flight overall.

Also, ospreys and bald eagles are pretty large birds, but I often see them flying steadily for as long as they’re in sight. The same for herons and egrets when they’re moving along the water. Recently we had tundra swans flying over, heading from south to due north, and they were of course actively flying all the while.


Originally Posted by Biggus
Which leads to an important consideration to where they'd settle: the presence of wind and thermal updrafts….

This is a good point, especially the updrafts.

It depends on the details of the race, but I think a colony of winged humanoids would be much more likely to build on an existing natural formation than trying to build a city of towers or whatnot. Humans use towers to give themselves as much height as possible for watching the surrounding landscape, but winged humanoids can fly thousands of feet above any tower, so that use wouldn’t be relevant.

If at all possible, they would be more likely to build on isolated columns or mountains, difficult to access from the ground but open to the skies. Shiprock in Navajo country and Uluru in Australia are two iconic examples that would be ideal for winged dwellers. Limestone pillars would also be ideal, along the lines of the Katskhi Pillar (https://www.flickr.com/photos/urszulap/36020548036) in Georgia.

[Quertus]

So, let's look at the various points, not all of which apply to every flying race: flight is energy intensive flight requires more space than walking the sick or young or elderly may be unable to fly wind can disrupt flight paths flight gives huge military advantages people are lazy

A society that cared about defense, but didn't care about their weak, could easily enjoy the defense offered by cliff life, using any natural updrafts to facilitate flight. Or kind members of that society could check in on the sick, bringing them food & medicine.

An even more military-minded society might choose to build a bridge-town, where invaders are easily cut off by destroying their own bridges.

Personally, I would aim for "claiming" ghost towns (lazy nomad fliers), or building with an advanced eye towards wind breaks.

Because flight takes more energy, I would expect lazy fliers - if they had human metabolisms - to be less social, more home bodies to reflect the increased energy expenditure to travel and the increased distance between destinations necessitated by accommodating wingspan. Crazy bird metabolisms, OTOH, could be quite social.

Throw magic (etc) into the mix, and it's anyone's guess.

[daremetoidareyo]

We need to know diet to really do this. Food production will govern city design

[DataNinja]

Whoa what book was that?
The Ellimist Chronicles.

[King of Nowhere]

A very astute take on the question, but I’d add that a flying species would probably use towable balloons or kites for cargo rather than wheeled carts.

if they have them and they are practical, yes. so, the dm may decide on this one

[Calthropstu]

Have you ever observed birds for any length of time?

Most of the time, a bird spends on the ground or on a branch. It spends far more time on its feet than using its wings. When it does use its wings, it's to either avoid danger or travel. Most of its flights are short hops between perches. I surmise that using wings must be tiring.

Translate that to a humanoid, and you get a person who can fly, but avoids it if it can be helped. Brief forays into the sky to get somewhere quickly, but more often spent indoors. The idea of using cliff faces and mountains is a good one. If they can somehow build a floating fortress, that would be ideal. The architecture would otherwise be unremarkable excepting there would be places to jump out of to use flight built into the architecture. Windows would become larger to act as doors too.

But mostly, life would otherwise be easily recognizable as your own life would be.

[Jay R]

There would be no ground level entrances. The doors would be on the roof.

[Calthropstu]

There would be no ground level entrances. The doors would be on the roof.

Maybe, but I bet official buildings would have ground access for visitors and ambassadors.

[FinnDarkblade]

They'd still eventually end up having to be very ground-based. Food production on a massive scale has to take place on farmland and flight is a terribly inefficient and energy intensive way to transport bulk goods. There's not much that would change about our modern world if we all suddenly grew wings. I know I'd still drive to work rather than spending all my energy on flying while trying to not get wet, avoid insects, get there on time, and carry the equipment for my job. The only time that might not be true would be if I lived in a high-rise apartment in a city near my job to avoid having to use public transit.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by FinnDarkblade
I know I'd still drive to work rather than spending all my energy on flying while trying to not get wet, avoid insects, get there on time, and carry the equipment for my job.

I would fly to work in a heartbeat. Or rather, in a wingbeat. I usually just take a laptop and some folders in a backpack, so I wouldn't have much to haul. I'd relish being able to look down on the frickin' &$#%@!! interstate I usually have to drive.

[FinnDarkblade]

I would fly to work in a heartbeat. Or rather, in a wingbeat. I usually just take a laptop and some folders in a backpack, so I wouldn't have much to haul. I'd relish being able to look down on the frickin' &$#%@!! interstate I usually have to drive.

Part of this for me is influenced by the fact that I live about an hour from where I work. Average cruise speed for birds is 20-30mph so it would take more than twice as long to get there in the morning. And weight matters a ton more to flying than it does to walking, which is why birds have hollow bones. Just a laptop would add a lot of energy expenditure.

[Thunder999]

Your biggest difference would be the complete lack of narrow alleys, sidestreets etc. The only roads would be wide ones used for carts and mounts/pack animals, they exist to transport goods and are rarely used by actual citizens. Houses are usually accessed from the roof, many don't even have ground level doors. Large wealthy houses and many businesses have large ground floor doors big enough to fit a cart, used exclusively for both incoming and outgoing deliveries.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

An option that hasn't been suggested yet is building normal structures directly into a cliffside with only one or two relatively treacherous (for non-fliers) land paths up to the city. Look at how some native American populations built theirs and then move it into the Grand Canyon where you basically need a good, stable mount or insurance that a slip won't spell death for you while the flying race can just glide down from the upper levels

[Edenbeast]

You may want to have a look at Races of the Wild, a source book for 3.5 with chapters about Elves and Halflings, but also one introducing the Raptorans. I always liked the Raptorans, and the chapter ends with the Rifinti cliff city (with map). They basically live like sand martins, with only the holes in the cliff as access points to the city if I remember correctly.

[PrismCat21]

You may want to have a look at Races of the Wild, a source book for 3.5 with chapters about Elves and Halflings, but also one introducing the Raptorans. I always liked the Raptorans, and the chapter ends with the Rifinti cliff city (with map). They basically live like sand martins, with only the holes in the cliff as access points to the city if I remember correctly.

I was wondering why no one mentioned the Raptorans. :)
Thank you, saves me the trouble.

[Thunder999]

I feel like the living in a cliff thing really doesn't work if they actually want to trade with the outside world, or even just move large amounts of stuff within the city.
How are their smelters and forges getting ore delivered with no roads? How do they bring the crops from surrounding lands in to feed the population?

[daremetoidareyo]

I feel like the living in a cliff thing really doesn't work if they actually want to trade with the outside world, or even just move large amounts of stuff within the city.
How are their smelters and forges getting ore delivered with no roads? How do they bring the crops from surrounding lands in to feed the population?

With flight near a cliff face, a trade in fish (salted or cured) would be a natural trade good. Gonna need dwarves to help with structural integrity cuz mining skills are at a premium.

Depending on geology, brick and ceramics are prolly in play too. Updrafts from kilns might be regulated by their government structire to help flight paths

And don't forget feathers! Those bad boys probably molt once or twice a year. That's a trade good and they could probably get a monopoly

If near the ocean, flight + nets probably can make them the regional powerhouse in ink and quills.

[FinnDarkblade]

I feel like the living in a cliff thing really doesn't work if they actually want to trade with the outside world, or even just move large amounts of stuff within the city.
How are their smelters and forges getting ore delivered with no roads? How do they bring the crops from surrounding lands in to feed the population?

This exactly. There are very good reasons why the most important cities throughout history have tended to be very easily accessable by roads and/or water. Bulk movement of anything requires the use of the wheel and the wheel works best on flat, open ground.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by FinnDarkblade
Bulk movement of anything requires the use of the wheel….

The Silk Roads would like to have a word.

Certainly most (but not all) ancient cities were founded near water for transport, but many trade routes, including the Silk Road complex, relied on pack animals, especially routes that went through mountain passes or sandy terrain. So neither water nor the wheel is essential in all cases.

[Calthropstu]

An alternative "pack animal" just crossed my mind. Trained griffons could act in that capacity.
For major shipments between cities a roc would suffice. Another alternative would be floating disc shennanigans.
It's not impossible to have a pure flight culture now that I think of it.

[FinnDarkblade]

The Silk Roads would like to have a word.

Certainly most (but not all) ancient cities were founded near water for transport, but many trade routes, including the Silk Road complex, relied on pack animals, especially routes that went through mountain passes or sandy terrain. So neither water nor the wheel is essential in all cases.

That's a fair point, but those were specifically used for long-distance trade in high-cost goods to make the time and small aount you could carry worth it.


An alternative "pack animal" just crossed my mind. Trained griffons could act in that capacity.
For major shipments between cities a roc would suffice. Another alternative would be floating disc shennanigans.
It's not impossible to have a pure flight culture now that I think of it.

Oh you definitely can fly all your goods around, it's just going to be really inneficient. You can burden a camel well past its light load because you don't have to worry about it falling out of the sky. Even better, you can hook up a horse to a heavy wagon and it can carry multiple times its own weight. On top of that, horses, oxen, mules, etc are relatively quite easy to train and feed. That gets less true once you start looking at things like griffons and rocs. Imagine multiple businesses trying to have "stables" of rocs to keep the flow of goods going between major cities. Now, things would get more feasible once your society starts figuring out things like dirigibles.

[Quertus]

Rocs are much more maintainable with a Ring of Sustenance. Although I'll continue to pimp Zombie Dragons (and Corpse / Skeletal fliers of all stripes) for your truly cost-efficient transport needs.

[Necroticplague]

Considering how even things that can fly under their own power seem to avoid doing so unless really needed (ex: if you chase a bird, it will run a considerable distance before it'll take off to escape, a beetle will slowly walk across my yard when it could fly above the grass), I'm not sure the ability to fly will effect that basics of how buildings are built. Flying is still tiring, and they'd want to avoid doing it, so their buildings would be built to avoid the necessity. Building structures designed to be flown through would be like building a hallway designed to be sprinted (instead of walked) through.

Just for an IRL example, lets look at bees: they can fly, and do build structures. And the structures they build appear to be affected by their ability to fly only in that their entrance is off the ground (for safety reasons). Once inside a hive, their really isn't any room to fly. Instead, they just climb around.

So, drawing from these and similar examples, I think the ability to climb has a bigger impact on architecture than flight, and flight just means that entrances will be put in higher places others can't easily get to.

[Alcore]

Haven't read everything but in the first post you said ignore magical elements so I'm going to put far more science into this;


First thing is what kind of flyers. You didn't say so I'll pick; Harpies. The occasional eddition/clone gives them a magic trick or two but beyond obscure PC races are as mundane of flyers as you get. I prefer the two legs, two arms and two wing variety (a good number, perhaps majority, have wingarms).


Now how a race builds its cities is relevant to how a culture is. So this will ramble...


Location, materials and reasoning are the first things to consider. Harpies, in my mind, need to be light and small to carry themselves through the air (still medium though). Obviously their buildings won't have nearly as much load bearing concerns ours do which means you can build them taller. They will also be built to handle winds. Our skyscrapers are built to allow some give and take as a ridged building would eventually snap so our harpy nests will likely do the same (and likely require frequent maintenance).


Against unintelligent creatures a simple hut on stilts keeps you safe. No stairs, nothing to climb. A simple pully system with rope and a net can allow to-heavy-to-fly loads to be brought up with far less effort. Against something that groups together and uses tools you'll want mountains, hills, cliffs and even tall trees (trees are likely more for hiding a village)


My imaginary city is located in a craggy canyon that empties out into someplace with game to hunt (its rare for harpies to be non carnivores). It can't be too narrow or it impeeds flight but must be rocky. Or sandy. Sand, rocks, concrete and asphalt (doubly so if it has a black coloration) tend to absorb and then emit heat from the sun. These are called thermals that birds can use to gain altitude with less effort so Harpies will be building sandy roads, even if they rarely ever touch them.


Materials will be of the lighter more malleable woods. Whether they like being rained or dripped on will determine door and window placement. An abundance of rope and cloth will go into its construction and nails may, in fact, be absent. The standard European design is usually a ridged structure but that can't be done too high up or the winds will tear them up (or fall over/inward). Much like a Japanese Castle that was designed to weather earthquakes and the occasional hurricane these buildings will be built to take a bit of jostling; which means more physics and less "make it too durable to be easily broken".


Any building that needs to last for more than a half century (when properly treated a wooden structure can last for two centuries, but it does get expensive) will likely be made of stone and in locations that humans will need help reaching. If technology allows they will have a bigger, heavier pully system to get large loads up into the structure. (I am uncertain of the rules between flight and carry capacity but in ponyfinder most winged ponies fall from the sky 1lb above light). Townhalls, forts, watchtowers and other civic buildings will eventually be replaced with stone (or heavier woods) materials but will sit lower to the ground.


Doors will be circular or simply wider.

[SangoProduction]

Considering how even things that can fly under their own power seem to avoid doing so unless really needed (ex: if you chase a bird, it will run a considerable distance before it'll take off to escape, a beetle will slowly walk across my yard when it could fly above the grass), I'm not sure the ability to fly will effect that basics of how buildings are built. Flying is still tiring, and they'd want to avoid doing it, so their buildings would be built to avoid the necessity. Building structures designed to be flown through would be like building a hallway designed to be sprinted (instead of walked) through.

Just for an IRL example, lets look at bees: they can fly, and do build structures. And the structures they build appear to be affected by their ability to fly only in that their entrance is off the ground (for safety reasons). Once inside a hive, their really isn't any room to fly. Instead, they just climb around.

So, drawing from these and similar examples, I think the ability to climb has a bigger impact on architecture than flight, and flight just means that entrances will be put in higher places others can't easily get to.

You make a decent point, however, I will point to humans, as an example. If the ceilings are too low, it feels pretty cramped, even if we have plenty of room to do literally everything but jumping jacks. It's not that you'd need to make builds to be flown in, but I can't imagine flying humanoids not demanding more vertical space in a floor. Perfect fliers like vampires, who just float, on the other hand, might have literally no greater, implicit, need for higher ceilings to be comfortable.

[ben-zayb]

We need to know diet to really do this. Food production will govern city design
I agree, to a degree. Agriculture options will be reliant on population size. Above a certain sized even flyers would have to consider farming as the best way to produce sustainable food. That means even presuming the existence of vertical cities, there would still be a need to build wide at the bottom and finding good soil.

At smaller population sizes, hunting and foraging could still be viable. Arboreal-level foraging might be feasible to a degree. Their best bet for hunting is still to interact with terrestrial and aquatic habitat because that's where most preys are. The advantage is being safely out of range from high-risk quarries. The disadvantage would be that flying expends more energy, which means the need for more food. I'm not even sure if these flyers can persistence-hunt.

The civilization's industry would be another interesting factor for building and designing cities. An efficient transportation system would be essential, otherwise, these industrial workplaces will end up mostly being situated at the bottom base of the city. Flyers could have no competition mining nodes that are highly inaccessible to terrestrials. Mechanical energy could be available via wind farms on high places near the coast, or waterwheel near waterfalls.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Necroticplague
…if you chase a bird, it will run a considerable distance before it'll take off to escape….

No idea which bird you mean here, but the birds I watch every day won’t hesitate to fly off when I get too close. They don’t run, they fly.

Also, bees and beetles are insects, with six legs in addition to wings, so their locomotion and metabolism are completely different.


Originally Posted by Alcore
First thing is what kind of flyers. You didn't say….

As others have mentioned, it’s hard to offer much detail without knowing which species, how many individuals would be considered a “city,” and what they rely on for food and raw materials.

Even among the same species, different populations might create radically different settlements depending on ecosystem type, food availability and how integrated they are into any wider network of communities.


Originally Posted by SangoProduction
I was watching a show where the setting's primary race are of a bunch of flying creatures.

Which show was this, and what is the primary race? I’m curious what your starting point was for this line of thought.

.

[hamishspence]

No idea which bird you mean here, but the birds I watch every day won’t hesitate to fly off when I get too close. They don’t run, they fly.

Ducks and geese, maybe pheasants, are probably what's meant. Even wild ones tend to run first, then fly if running won't do it. They may actually need to run to take off.

[AvatarVecna]

K.A. Applegate wrote a wonderful side story to Animorphs that had the Ketrans, a flying species living on basically Venus, with sulfur lakes and toxic ground. They all lived in giant crystals and every member had to spend a certain amount of time providing lift so the crystals flew. Their class in society was determined by the level of the spar they were on and those too old to fly were given Elder status. The traditional crystal had a minor conflict with a more progressive crystal who are building an airfoil to provide lift without docked time.

Well that sent me on a trip down memory lane. Thanks for reminding me about that bonkers backstory.

[Bucky]

A flying race could make good use of body-weight elevators to get stuff onto their upper floors. It'd look something like.

Push a handcart onto the bottom platform.
Confirm that it weighs less than you
Unlock the bottom platform
Fly onto the top platform
Unlock the top platform
The elevator mechanism uses the weight difference to raise the lower platform and lower the upper one at a safe speed.
Lock the now-bottom platform before stepping off
Fly back to the top
Lock the top platform
Roll the cart to your destination on the upper floor.

[Calthropstu]

Ducks and geese, maybe pheasants, are probably what's meant. Even wild ones tend to run first, then fly if running won't do it. They may actually need to run to take off.

It's all birds. Unless you approach with some speed, they will first hop away. If you approach slowly, they will hop for a considerable distance until you get to a specific distance in which case they will fly. When they do fly, it's usually a short distance away. Particularly pigeons, which are so used to being near people already.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Calthropstu
It's all birds. Unless you approach with some speed, they will first hop away. If you approach slowly, they will hop for a considerable distance until you get to a specific distance in which case they will fly. When they do fly, it's usually a short distance away.

Not a word of this is true.

Goldfinches will fly off if you so much as look at them the wrong way. Cardinals are almost as touchy. Carolina wrens will fly in a heartbeat. Blue-gray gnatcatchers hardly stop flying. Same with yellow-rumped warblers.

Mourning doves will flutter up and away if you so much as incline in their direction. Kingfishers are especially skittish; they’ll swoop off a perch and barnstorm away as soon as they see you. Ospreys will startle off a perch if you walk too close. Bald eagles are also touchy about their space, and they usually won't let me get within a few hundred feet if they can see me coming. These birds don't hop.

People making claims about birds hopping rather than flying don’t seem to have much experience with any actual birds.

[FinnDarkblade]

Not a word of this is true.

Goldfinches will fly off if you so much as look at them the wrong way. Cardinals are almost as touchy. Carolina wrens will fly in a heartbeat. Blue-gray gnatcatchers hardly stop flying. Same with yellow-rumped warblers.

Mourning doves will flutter up and away if you so much as incline in their direction. Kingfishers are especially skittish; they’ll swoop off a perch and barnstorm away as soon as they see you. Ospreys will startle off a perch if you walk too close. Bald eagles are also touchy about their space, and they usually won't let me get within a few hundred feet if they can see me coming. These birds don't hop.

People making claims about birds hopping rather than flying don’t seem to have much experience with any actual birds.

I have seen behavior like this from plenty of birds but it's really only the ones that are incredibly used to being around people. You see the same thing in squirrels that live on college campuses. They'll kind of amble away from you if you get closer while keeping an eye on you but they won't sprint up a tree unless you make a quick move or get way too close.

[Quertus]

I'll second that most birds - unless seriously threatened - will attempt a "hop out of the way" tactic over fight. Granted, this depends on conditioning: pidgins that are routinely chased by children, for example, will be quicker to take wing than "the old farmer's neighborhood sparrow", for example.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Various People
…all birds….
…most birds….

Those making claims about “most birds” or “all birds” aren’t naming any species as examples, which leads me to believe that these people aren’t familiar enough with birds to be credible observers.


Originally Posted by FinnDarkblade
…it's really only the ones that are incredibly used to being around people.

Mockingbirds or robins on a college campus, that I could see. Primarily ground-feeding birds which are heavily habituated to human presence, that would make sense. But in the wide world of birds those are the exception rather than the rule.

[Alcore]

As others have mentioned, it’s hard to offer much detail without knowing which species, how many individuals would be considered a “city,” and what they rely on for food and raw materials.

Even among the same species, different populations might create radically different settlements depending on ecosystem type, food availability and how integrated they are into any wider network of communities.
.
Hence why i picked one. To provide an example as explained in the second quoted paragraph.


And we don't even know if "city" was a poorly worded "population center". Though city implies a reasonable size... so at the vary least we are talking village or bigger. A size most flying monsters rarely congregate in for prolonged periods.

[SangoProduction]

Hence why i picked one. To provide an example as explained in the second quoted paragraph.


And we don't even know if "city" was a poorly worded "population center". Though city implies a reasonable size... so at the vary least we are talking village or bigger. A size most flying monsters rarely congregate in for prolonged periods.

"How would flying humanoids build their cities?" was a choice of phrase that was meant to be synonymous with "How would flight have affected how people design architecture."

So "city" is whatever size you wish to say it is in this context.

[Calthropstu]

Those making claims about “most birds” or “all birds” aren’t naming any species as examples, which leads me to believe that these people aren’t familiar enough with birds to be credible observers.



Mockingbirds or robins on a college campus, that I could see. Primarily ground-feeding birds which are heavily habituated to human presence, that would make sense. But in the wide world of birds those are the exception rather than the rule.

I saved a raven once from a pool. It actually became quite attached to me. Thought it was dead. Pulled it out of the pool and it started moving. It definitely did a lot of hopping, even after it was able to fly again.

Back when I lived in upstate NY, I went into the woods fairly often. I'd watch my cats try to get at various different types of birds. (I had several outside cats at the time). Usually, the birds would hop further down the branch as a cat approached before flying to the next tree. It would frustrate my cats to no end. I think the birds were deliberately being *****. I used to imagine their chirps as laughter. It amused me to no end.

True, there have been birds that took flight the moment they saw me. But, seeing how I have been able to, on more than one occasion, simply walk up to a bird digging for worms in the morning and pick it up on my finger (Only managed that a few times, true, but I still managed it) I have to say there are quite a few birds that prefer to hop because I have seen it MANY times. Both in upstate NY and in cities around the country.

It could also be determined by how close their nest or feeding ground is. I'd imagine them being loathe to leave good feeding grounds. And, I will admit, I have very little experience with predatory birds. Only experience I have with them is a few spottings of them high in the sky and an owl that used to inhabit a huge oak that stood just off our back yard in a large forest. Very rarely saw it as that tree was HUGE and I only ever saw it a few times at night. There was no chance of me or the cats ever getting close to it. We brought our outside cats in at night, I was always worried that the owl would get them. But my mom assured me they'd be fine. (I was 10 at the time)

But yeah, I actually have quite a bit experience with birds. I never studied them or anything, and literally have no clue what each kind of bird is which. I can identify a cardinel, but I have no idea what a finch or a robin looks like. All I can do is describe the ones I have dealt with.

The ones I was able to pick up:
A small yellow front with blackish wings. It had its head burried in the ground. I game up behind it, slipped my finger under its talons and picked it up. It stood on my finger for a little bit, looking at me. Chirped a few times, hopped off and used its wings to land smoothly. Went back to digging in the dirt. I then left.

A moderate sized blue front with dark wings. I remember thinking it was quite pretty. I walked up to it while it had its head in its wings and did the same thing. It lost its balance chirped a lot and flapped off my finger flying about 100 feet before landing.

A tiny all yellow bird. I think it may have been a chick. I just put my finger on the branch it was sitting on and it eventually hopped onto it. I stood very motionless for a long time. (I don't think I have that kind of patience anymore to be honest.) It chirpped at me a lot standing still on my finger before finally gliding away. It stood on my finger almost a full minute.

Each time I remember quite well because it was always a wonder. When I saved the raven from the pool, I always liked how it would stand perched on my shoulder. Don't know why it was in that pool, but I know for some time it was unable to fly. It eventually flew away, but I liked having it around. Took like 2 weeks.

But anyways... my experience with birds is quite extensive. And I have seen a lot of hopping birds. I used to spend a long time in those woods. And a LOT of birds were in there. They didn't seem to mind me much.