Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

[Citadel97501]

Hello all, I am wondering how you all feel about a warlock ignoring Eldritch Blast and its related invocations in favor of Sacred Flame? I think you would need something like Evoker Wizard 6, to make the cantrip more reliable and to broaden your spell slot use but this seems like a rather heavy investment for a minor buff, although the sheer spell versatality of an evoker is nothing to ignore.

I assume that a Cleric or sorcerer multi-class might also have some good benefits perhaps focusing more on the healing elements of the sub-class?

[Tokuhara]

So here's the thing: Eldritch Blast should have been a class feature, not a Cantrip. That much being said, Tiefling Warlock 6/Sorcerer 14 (specifically Red/Gold Draconic bloodline) can work. You're more focused on fire, but Celestial 6 gives you +Cha to Radiant and Fire. Combine this with Draconic doing the same for fire, Flames of Phelthegos for Reroll 1s for Damage, and Elemental Adept for ignore resistance, you do pretty solid damage overall. Sacred Flame and Firebolt suddenly become pretty hot as Cantrips (Firebolt suddenly does scaling d10+10 reroll 1s ignore resistance, and Sacred Flame does scaling d8+5). I mean, that's pretty solid tbh.

This doesn't include Fireball, Scorching Ray, Flame Strike, Flaming Sphere, Guiding Bolt, etc. This can be a serious hoot to play. I'd start with a level of Sorcerer, flip to Warlock 6, then finish with Sorcerer.

[Aett_Thorn]

Eh, it’s a free cantrip, and works great when you come across a heavily-armored enemy, who may have a high AC, but low Dex save.

Is it great? No. But it gives you a nice alternative to use at certain times.

[stoutstien]

Hello all, I am wondering how you all feel about a warlock ignoring Eldritch Blast and its related invocations in favor of Sacred Flame? I think you would need something like Evoker Wizard 6, to make the cantrip more reliable and to broaden your spell slot use but this seems like a rather heavy investment for a minor buff, although the sheer spell versatality of an evoker is nothing to ignore.

I assume that a Cleric or sorcerer multi-class might also have some good benefits perhaps focusing more on the healing elements of the sub-class?

You never match the basic EB spamming warlock but I think it would do enough damage at-will while also freeing up a lot of invocations for utility.
I could see some strange pseudo celestrial/chain warlock tank with gift of the ever-living one, tomb of levistus, dwarven fortitude, as a hill dwarf.

[col_impact]

You never match the basic EB spamming warlock but I think it would do enough damage at-will while also freeing up a lot of invocations for utility.
I could see some strange pseudo celestrial/chain warlock tank with gift of the ever-living one, tomb of levistus, dwarven fortitude, as a hill dwarf.
Or you know. Just go wizard!

[nickl_2000]

Or you know. Just go wizard!

How does a wizard get sacred flame?

[Zetakya]

If you're a Celestial Tomelock you can take Fire Bolt for a Spell Attack Vs AC that also keys off your Celestial Subclass Ability.

Shillelagh with Green Flame Blade is another commonly used combination for Celestial Tomelock. GFB is ofc a Warlock Cantrip, not a Tome pick.

[Keravath]

If you are investing in 6 levels of evoker wizard just to get 1/2 damage on save cantrips ... I think that is going a bit far. Especially since all your wizard spells depend on int and the warlock or cleric spells (depending on how you obtained sacred flame) depend on char or wis.

In addition, if you are just looking for reliable save cantrip damage then an evoker wizard with Toll the Dead does better than most other options since it is on the wizard spell list, does base d12 damage (save for 1/2 at level 6), doesn't need multiclassing or multiple decent stats.

Trying to combine the celestial level 6 ability which adds cha mod to radiant/fire damage with the level 6 evoker ability doesn't come online until 12th level.

When it does sacred flame will do 3d8+5 (assuming 20 cha) which is an average of 18.5 ... with save it does 9 damage. This is hardly impressive enough to create a build around. In addition, a celestial warlock can just use agonizing blast which is 3d10+15 = 31.5 damage on average. Yes, it won't do damage if you miss but even hitting with ONE bolt will average 10.5 which is more than sacred flame if they make the save.

It can be done if you want to build a concept around it but honestly you might be better off reflavoring eldritch blast as bolts from heaven and see if your DM would allow you to switch it to radiant damage from force.

[T.G. Oskar]

So here's the thing: Eldritch Blast should have been a class feature, not a Cantrip. That much being said, Tiefling Warlock 6/Sorcerer 14 (specifically Red/Gold Draconic bloodline) can work. You're more focused on fire, but Celestial 6 gives you +Cha to Radiant and Fire. Combine this with Draconic doing the same for fire, Flames of Phelthegos for Reroll 1s for Damage, and Elemental Adept for ignore resistance, you do pretty solid damage overall. Sacred Flame and Firebolt suddenly become pretty hot as Cantrips (Firebolt suddenly does scaling d10+10 reroll 1s ignore resistance, and Sacred Flame does scaling d8+5). I mean, that's pretty solid tbh.

This doesn't include Fireball, Scorching Ray, Flame Strike, Flaming Sphere, Guiding Bolt, etc. This can be a serious hoot to play. I'd start with a level of Sorcerer, flip to Warlock 6, then finish with Sorcerer.

Sacred Flame doesn't deal half and half; it only deals Radiant damage. So it wouldn't be affected by the Draconic Sorcerer's damage boost - only the Celestial Warlock boost. I know you mention it implicitly on a sentence, but the start of your post leads to think the two would combine.

That said: as a Tomelock, you could snatch Produce Flame and Create Bonfire, which would be affected (in theory) by everything you mentioned. Produce Flame has the benefit of providing light (but with a smaller range and less damage) and Create Bonfire is a spell placed in an area.

(Minor nitpick: why don't Clerics get a Radiant damage cantrip that hits vs. AC? There's precedent with Lance of Light in 4e - one of the reasons, if not THE reason, they were called "Lazer Clerics" in that edition.)

[AttilatheYeon]

It isn't as easy to do damage with, but it's doable. If you use create bonfire first, then next round use sacred flame you'll keep up on damage, but you need to keep the monster in the square. Flaming sphere and booming blade/warcaster work for keeping the monster in the square. It's more work than EB spam, but more fun.

[stoutstien]

Honestly when I played my celestial tome lock I usually only had to use cantrips for clean up or utility. He used magic Stone alot but he was a halfling so he had an affinity for smacking large creatures with rocks.

[Segev]

It isn't as easy to do damage with, but it's doable. If you use create bonfire first, then next round use sacred flame you'll keep up on damage, but you need to keep the monster in the square. Flaming sphere and booming blade/warcaster work for keeping the monster in the square. It's more work than EB spam, but more fun.

How does flaming sphere keep a monster in a square? (Also, you'd need a second caster for this, because bonfire and flaming sphere both require Concentration.)

[Tokuhara]

How does flaming sphere keep a monster in a square? (Also, you'd need a second caster for this, because bonfire and flaming sphere both require Concentration.)

The actual combo is:

Concentrate of Flaming Sphere and, while in melee with an opponent, use Booming Blade. Now the monster has a catch-22: Move, and they take Booming Blade damage; don't move, and you burn from Flaming Sphere

[col_impact]

The actual combo is:

Concentrate of Flaming Sphere and, while in melee with an opponent, use Booming Blade. Now the monster has a catch-22: Move, and they take Booming Blade damage; don't move, and you burn from Flaming Sphere

I use Mobility feat.

[Segev]

The actual combo is:

Concentrate of Flaming Sphere and, while in melee with an opponent, use Booming Blade. Now the monster has a catch-22: Move, and they take Booming Blade damage; don't move, and you burn from Flaming Sphere

Does booming blade not use Concentration? I don't have the book it's from. But I thought it was like a lot of other "blade" and "strike" spells in that it took Concentration.

[stoutstien]

Does booming blade not use Concentration? I don't have the book it's from. But I thought it was like a lot of other "blade" and "strike" spells in that it took Concentration.

No but honestly that's not a bad way of balancing it....that or add a save to the secondary effect.

[Mikal]

I use Mobility feat.

Which doesn’t stop you from taking the booming blade damage if you move so... go you?

[Mikal]

No but honestly that's not a bad way of balancing it....that or add a save to the secondary effect.

That would be stupid. Concentration is used for an ongoing effect and would be crap if it required concentration. It works fine as is

[stoutstien]

That would be stupid. Concentration is used for an ongoing effect and would be crap if it required concentration. It works fine as is
It has an ongoing effect. The option on how balanced anything from SCAG has been the subject for debate for a while.

[Mikal]

It has an ongoing effect. The option on how balanced anything from SCAG has been the subject for debate for a while.

Only by people who don’t know how to balance things.

[stoutstien]

Only by people who don’t know how to balance things.
Purple banner knights are balanced? Or undying locks? I must be crazy to think that those poor options.

[Mikal]

Purple banner knights are balanced? Or undying locks? I must be crazy to think that those poor options.

Nice attempt at moving the goal posts and strawmanning. Because you know, this is a discussion about purple banner knights or undying warlocks 🙄

[col_impact]

Which doesn’t stop you from taking the booming blade damage if you move so... go you?

I use mobility to tag people with BB. They then have to move to get in melee with me, which triggers BB.

[Corpus]

Hello all, I am wondering how you all feel about a warlock ignoring Eldritch Blast and its related invocations in favor of Sacred Flame?

Having played a Celestial Tomelock, Scared Flame works well. I also took Green Flame Blade, and Flame Bolt (at 3rd) for a Sune worshiping celestial touched warlock.

Yes it was Fire dependent and I had fewer options against Fire Resistant/Immune enemies but the campaign didn't revolve around those.

I had a versatile character for ranged attacks, melee attacks, and save attacks vs high AC's. Plus all the other abilities available to me.

This was a fun and involved character that I would recommend to others. Be sure to discuss all character ideas with your DM though. In the end they are the only ones that can tell you (or hint) whether a character is a good idea in the campaign they are running.

[stoutstien]

Nice attempt at moving the goal posts and strawmanning. Because you know, this is a discussion about purple banner knights or undying warlocks 🙄

The point was about the general balance of player options in SCAG not just the blade cantrips.

SCAG IMO has the more options that are 'off' than any other single book. Which is impressive seeing how short it is.

BB does more damage than other cantrips barring EB. Not by a whole lot but iy did move away from the standard of adding stat modifier to the cantrip w/o an action cost e.g magic Stone or shillelagh. Most of the time it's not enough to care about but having a spell with little to no cost that can benefit from bonuses to weapon attacks and spell casting is going to cause issues with a good change of more popping up with additional content.
I think it became the standard option for anyone who didn't have the extra attack feature. Standard options tend to reduce options.

It has the most duds for Subclasses. If you discount reprints, Scag Subclasses have a very low popularity. Chalk it up to bad fluff or crunch, they are off.

Overall SCAG is wonky and off. The overall balance of 5e is solid enough that it doesn't break or even bend anything but it does leave it asmidgen off.

[Mikal]

I use mobility to tag people with BB. They then have to move to get in melee with me, which triggers BB.

Ah my mistake. I thought you were saying mobility helped you avoid the trap somehow

[Mikal]

The point was about the general balance of player options in SCAG not just the blade cantrips.

Yes. Which is what moving the goalposts and strawmanning means.

None of that is being discussed. Only one thing.

[Zuras]

No but honestly that's not a bad way of balancing it....that or add a save to the secondary effect.


If you think the SCAG blade cantrips are unbalanced, you either haven’t played with them or roll for stats. Relying on a secondary stat for an attack is more than enough balance.

In my experience, the situations where BB gets abused, the cantrip is not the problem. Sorcadins and Hexblade Sorlocks are well above the power curve even without them.

Only Clerics and Rogues without extra attack get real value out of BB, and only Rogues will be using it constantly. Eldritch Knights get substantial benefits from levels 7-10, but making their L7 subclass feature relevant is hardly unbalancing.

[stoutstien]

If you think the SCAG blade cantrips are unbalanced, you either haven’t played with them or roll for stats. Relying on a secondary stat for an attack is more than enough balance.

In my experience, the situations where BB gets abused, the cantrip is not the problem. Sorcadins and Hexblade Sorlocks are well above the power curve even without them.

Only Clerics and Rogues without extra attack get real value out of BB, and only Rogues will be using it constantly. Eldritch Knights get substantial benefits from levels 7-10, but making their L7 subclass feature relevant is hardly unbalancing.

Yea sorcerer is probably to key element that sends it out of wack. Hexblade is a good example of what I meant by it stacks to easily. I'm worried as additional content is published it'll just make the stronger option stronger without doing anything to address the weaker ones.
As far as single attack vs BB in the case of rogue and clerics I think if normal attack had more flexible from the get it would be a non issue.
BB adding almost as much soft CC as AOO rubs me wrong.

[Zuras]

Yea sorcerer is probably to key element that sends it out of wack. Hexblade is a good example of what I meant by it stacks to easily. I'm worried as additional content is published it'll just make the stronger option stronger without doing anything to address the weaker ones.
As far as single attack vs BB in the case of rogue and clerics I think if normal attack had more flexible from the get it would be a non issue.
BB adding almost as much soft CC as AOO rubs me wrong.

In theory (and normally in practice) it’s balanced out by the fact that those using BB either shouldn’t be in melee (Rogues, Wizards, Sorcerers, most Warlocks), are using a secondary stat (Clerics) or rely on BB as their special class benefit (EKs).

In my actual play experience, it’s only been worth it for a Swashbuckler Rogue (Magic Initiate), Abjurer Wizard (Dwarf with Gauntlets of Ogre Power) and builds using Quicken Spell. I’m assuming Eldritch Knights would like it too, but I play PHB+1 and the EKs I’ve seen all preferred Xanathar’s and access to Absorb Element.

[stoutstien]

In theory (and normally in practice) it’s balanced out by the fact that those using BB either shouldn’t be in melee (Rogues, Wizards, Sorcerers, most Warlocks), are using a secondary stat (Clerics) or rely on BB as their special class benefit (EKs).

In my actual play experience, it’s only been worth it for a Swashbuckler Rogue (Magic Initiate), Abjurer Wizard (Dwarf with Gauntlets of Ogre Power) and builds using Quicken Spell. I’m assuming Eldritch Knights would like it too, but I play PHB+1 and the EKs I’ve seen all preferred Xanathar’s and access to Absorb Element.

Like I said I'm more worried about it as more content comes out. Once the next big book if player options book comes out maybe some new becomes a valid option or maybe BB gets ratcheted up more. It's in my pile of things to look out for.

[Zuras]

Hello all, I am wondering how you all feel about a warlock ignoring Eldritch Blast and its related invocations in favor of Sacred Flame? I think you would need something like Evoker Wizard 6, to make the cantrip more reliable and to broaden your spell slot use but this seems like a rather heavy investment for a minor buff, although the sheer spell versatality of an evoker is nothing to ignore.

I assume that a Cleric or sorcerer multi-class might also have some good benefits perhaps focusing more on the healing elements of the sub-class?

If you want to chuck around radiant damage, Divine Soul Sorcerer is your best bet. Use twin and quicken as your metamagics and you can chuck a lot of Sacred Flames and Guiding Bolts. It’s not optimal compared to quickened EB shenanigans, but it’s solid.

[KorvinStarmast]

Overall SCAG is wonky and off. The overall balance of 5e is solid enough that it doesn't break or even bend anything but it does leave it asmidgen off.
I wish they would have added the Arcana Cleric to the XGtE as they did Swashbuckler. I really like that domain.

[BloodBrandy]

Something to keep in mind, it ignores cover. This can be big for a dex save cantrip, but also take into mind it also could ignore full cover, and while you need to see a creature to target it...Ghostly Vision invocation is a thing...

Spam Sacred Flame from completely out of sight for a full minute. Hell, could even do some healing with Healing Light as your bonus actions from the same place, completely befuddle your enemies.

[jmartkdr]

Like I said I'm more worried about it as more content comes out. Once the next big book if player options book comes out maybe some new becomes a valid option or maybe BB gets ratcheted up more. It's in my pile of things to look out for.

Like the bracers of illusion?

I find most people who think BB is overpowered are assuming the bonus damage form the enemy moving is always going to happen - when in most cases, they'll just not move. Unless you're combining the cantrip with a high-level area of effect damage spell, but that's not really the cantrip's fault. If you only assume the initial hit is going to trigger (because in most cases, only the initial hit triggers), then it never outodoes Extra Attack.

Outside of Arcane Tricksters (and it's not bad there, just a little too much of a no-brainer choice) and sorcerer multiclasses with too few encounters per day, it's perfectly fine.

[Chronic]

Every time I hear people speaking of twinning and quickening cantrip for damage my soul hurt. Considering how costly those metamagic option are, you better be sur the few damage you will put out is WORTH the cost, otherwise just use Empower, it's way more effective at doing damage.
Twinning is better used as a way to maintain double concentration buff, and quicken as a way to disengage/dash/défend.

[Segev]

Like the bracers of illusion?

I find most people who think BB is overpowered are assuming the bonus damage form the enemy moving is always going to happen - when in most cases, they'll just not move. Unless you're combining the cantrip with a high-level area of effect damage spell, but that's not really the cantrip's fault. If you only assume the initial hit is going to trigger (because in most cases, only the initial hit triggers), then it never outodoes Extra Attack.

Outside of Arcane Tricksters (and it's not bad there, just a little too much of a no-brainer choice) and sorcerer multiclasses with too few encounters per day, it's perfectly fine."Often, they'll just not move."

Okay, how valuable is an ability that makes your enemies movement 0 ft. next round? Either you get extra damage or they don't move is actually quite powerful no matter which they choose. In fact, in a lot of cases, I'd prefer they not move to take the extra damage.


Every time I hear people speaking of twinning and quickening cantrip for damage my soul hurt. Considering how costly those metamagic option are, you better be sur the few damage you will put out is WORTH the cost, otherwise just use Empower, it's way more effective at doing damage.
Twinning is better used as a way to maintain double concentration buff, and quicken as a way to disengage/dash/défend.
Isn't it just 1 SP for Cantrips? Not free, but hardly "costly," either.

[stoutstien]

Like the bracers of illusion?

I find most people who think BB is overpowered are assuming the bonus damage form the enemy moving is always going to happen - when in most cases, they'll just not move. Unless you're combining the cantrip with a high-level area of effect damage spell, but that's not really the cantrip's fault. If you only assume the initial hit is going to trigger (because in most cases, only the initial hit triggers), then it never outodoes Extra Attack.

Outside of Arcane Tricksters (and it's not bad there, just a little too much of a no-brainer choice) and sorcerer multiclasses with too few encounters per day, it's perfectly fine.

Those bracers lol.

I just think they painted themselves into a corner from a design perspective. Having a feature that can benefit from both bonuses to weapons and spells close off a lot of really good concepts.

[Tanarii]

Something to keep in mind, it ignores cover. This can be big for a dex save cantrip, but also take into mind it also could ignore full cover, and while you need to see a creature to target it...Ghostly Vision invocation is a thing...

Spam Sacred Flame from completely out of sight for a full minute. Hell, could even do some healing with Healing Light as your bonus actions from the same place, completely befuddle your enemies.
You still need to be able to see your target per the spell. Additionally, per the general rule for spell casting you still need a clear path to the target. It doesn't give an exception to that general rule. It just ignores the cover bonus to the Dex saving throw if you can see and have a clear path.

[LudicSavant]

How does a wizard get sacred flame?

They can get it from the stupid GGtR background.

[BloodBrandy]

You still need to be able to see your target per the spell. Additionally, per the general rule for spell casting you still need a clear path to the target. It doesn't give an exception to that general rule. It just ignores the cover bonus to the Dex saving throw if you can see and have a clear path.

Actually, it seems Crawford disagrees (https://media.wizards.com/2017/podcasts/dnd/DnDPodcast_01_19_2017.mp3).


There are spells that create exceptions to this rule about needing a path clear of obstruction. One cantrip [that breaks] this rule is sacred flame. Sacred flame is one of the low level spells that has this text: "The target gains no benefit from cover for this saving throw." [...] So, they're getting no benefit from cover [...] and that includes total cover. So sacred flame is one of the few spells that allows you to target somebody even if they're behind total cover. [...] You can be looking through the window in the tower and cast it on someone outside.

So using Ghostly Gaze to see through walls, you could see the target you are using the spell on and use it through a wall.

[Tanarii]

Actually, it seems Crawford disagrees (https://media.wizards.com/2017/podcasts/dnd/DnDPodcast_01_19_2017.mp3).



So using Ghostly Gaze to see through walls, you could see the target you are using the spell on and use it through a wall.
Then Crawford is wrong. It happens.

[BloodBrandy]

Then Crawford is wrong. It happens.

Or it would be more up to the DM. I mean if any and every spell needed direct line of travel, a lot of teleportation spells would be easily bested by a sealed door.

[Tanarii]

Teleport and Dimension door have an exception. Sacred Flame just tells you that the target doesn't get the benefits of cover.

[BloodBrandy]

Teleport and Dimension door have an exception. Sacred Flame just tells you that the target doesn't get the benefits of cover.

I don't see why. They don't have any great wording difference from Thunder Step, Misty Step, Far Step, Etc. Or from much of any other type of spell. And Sacred Flame doesn't have any wording like Fireball or Eldritch Blast where it says the spell flies from you or anything like that.

Again, as I said, it would ultimately be up to the DM, and mine has outright agreed that yeah, it works, but I just don't see any great reason why it wouldn't if you are still able to see them.

[Segev]

The spell does say the lack of benefits of cover only applies to the saving throw, so yeah, it's a house rule to say that you can target somebody with total cover. If it didn't have the words "...for this saving throw," Crawford's ruling would match the RAW sufficiently that I wouldn't question it.

[jmartkdr]

"Often, they'll just not move."

Okay, how valuable is an ability that makes your enemies movement 0 ft. next round? Either you get extra damage or they don't move is actually quite powerful no matter which they choose. In fact, in a lot of cases, I'd prefer they not move to take the extra damage.


Isn't it just 1 SP for Cantrips? Not free, but hardly "costly," either.

I've found that when they're already in melee, most monsters don't move anyway, so it's about as valuable as an effect that prevents them from dodging. That's with several different dm's in different contexts with different playstyles, so I'm pretty confident in that.

In the right circumstance it is very good, but compared to imposing the dead condition (which also prevents moving), it's not as good. And Extra Attack is better at making them dead, since it reliably does more damage.

Which isn't to say a BB build can't be viable or even competitive - but you're not going to make anyone else obsolete with it either. The paladin is still the king of tankiness.

For metamagic: 1 out of three SP can be a lot or a little depending on your rest schedule, so it's hard to judge out of a specific context. But it's 2 sp to Quicken a cantrip anyways (and a Twinned BB has to hit two different targets, so that's even more situational.) I haven't seen an attempt to optimize around that particular combo so I don't know how bad it can get, though I do know sorcerers are very sensitive to how many encounters you get per long rest. Too few and they tend to overshadow other party members.

[Tanarii]

Which isn't to say a BB build can't be viable or even competitive - but you're not going to make anyone else obsolete with it either. The paladin is still the king of tankiness.
BB is one of the few ways besides Sentinel or Compelled Duel to make an effective aggro control tank.

[Segev]

And here I was thinking the goal would be to run up, booming blade them, and dash off again. Possibly using a reach weapon to dodge the OA.