Character Help: Eldritch Knight

[MarauderShields]

I'm in the middle (beginning? who knows) of a Curse of Strahd run with an Eldritch Knight (not my first DND rodeo, just first time running this class). We just reached level 6 and I'm having some difficulty choosing between what to do with the level up between a couple options. Before we get into the nitty gritty I want to take a moment to say I know there is no "correct" answer to this, and ultimately I can only do what I think is best. But I've been playing the arguments over in my head for the past few days and getting nowhere so I figured I needed some new perspectives. So with no further ado:

Character:
Human Variant Eldritch Knight, Level 5
AC 18 (Chain Mail, Shield)
Attack: Rapier +5, DMG 1d8+4
Dueling Proficiency

Str 15
Dex 13
Con 16
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 8

Feats: Defensive Duelist, Heavy Armor Master
Cantrips; Green Flame Blade, Firebolt
1st Level: Absorb Element, Protect from Good and Evil, Thunderwave, Shield

So here's my issue -- at level six I can either do an attribute increase (in this case I'd probably go for +1 to STR and INT) or a feat. On the feat side there are a whole series I'd like to get, but the one I'm wondering about is Magic Initiate -- I'd go the Cleric route to get Shield of Faith for that sweet sweet +2 AC.

At level 7, due to some hijinks, I can get myself one of three other great concentration spells -- Shadow Blade, Mirror Image, and Blur. Obviously, I can only have one of these active at a time. My question is would it be worth it to grab magic initiate to get shield of faith and then at level 7 get shadowblade?

The pros as I see it is that I have limited spell slots, so getting to cast shield of faith once a day without using up a first level slot. Then as the situation demands, I can always cancel it and switch to Shadow Blade, or vice versa.

The cons are eventually I'll have access to blur or mirror image, which seem to me to be at least equivalent to Shield of Faith. And while I won't have the spell slots to spam those for a while, would it ultimately be a waste of a feat to grab magic initiate then, especially if I can just naturally get better defensive concentration spells in a couple levels?

Some quick things to note while mulling this over. I'm sure you're well aware that COS is a heavy hitting campaign. We've been lucky so far and only had our first party death in our most recent session. I'm somewhat of the main tank for the party (though for character background reasons take that role grudgingly and sometimes not at all). As such, +2 AC would be incredible for me.

At the same time, fairly often I get stuck on what I call "the tank's got it," in party fights -- if we're in the open, or even in close corridors, I nab a few enemies on me and the party is just like -- he's got it, let's focus on the other enemies, which means I enter into some longer slug fests. So far, I've been mostly fine in these, and can handle these problems by playing smart around my spells and feats. However, two things to note -- I've been fine because of my high AC, so if enemies continue to level and my AC remains constant, I'll be in trouble (so that's plus one for shield of faith). At the same time, these slug fests only get drawn out because I don't deal a ton of damage, and shadow blade would greatly increase my damage output (doubles damage, and because it's Strahd and everything is dim lighting I'd get attack advantage a lot). (Our party doesn't exactly function well together, but that's part of the role playing, and what's made this campaign so much fun. All the characters are looking out for number 1).

So question to the crowd: Magic Initiate and Shadow Blade or no magic initiate and shadow blade/other defensive spell? Or something I've missed entirely?

Finally, as a side note, other feats I'm looking at if I don't go Initiate -- Altertness (so many ambushes. So god damn many), Lucky (because, well, yeah), Toughness (probably at a later level), Shield Expertise (enemies are starting to use AoE).

Thanks y'all!

[Aeriox]

I personally would go for the stat increase. A +2 in your attacking stat is not great, especially at level 6. Would higher AC help? Yes, but you already have two defensive feats, as well as the option of buying better armor if you get the chance. I would say better offense would help more, especially since you only seem to want the feat for the first level spell.

[Corran]

Skipping a few minor rules related stuff...
I'd avoid magic initiate. You'll have better uses for your concentration (you probably already have one, in protection from evil, though I haven't played the campaign so I can't say for sure) than shield of faith. Besides, it's not like you'll have trouble utilizing your 1st level slots anyway. For the 6th ASI/feat, I'd look at one of the following: +1STR & +1 DEX/WIS/INT, warcaster, or resilient wis (though protection from evil can take some pressure off the last one). I lean towards the stat bump and then warcaster at 8, by which point you probably want to have booming blade (and hopefully protection from evil -and later on indomitable- will be enough help for the wisdom saves).

Deciding between shadow blade and blur is what you should be thinking about the most, imo. Both are good spells for an EK, but since I don't know the module and since I don't know the rest of the party, I can't say which one it would be better for you to take. Still, I think this will be an important choice.

[LudicSavant]

On the feat side there are a whole series I'd like to get, but the one I'm wondering about is Magic Initiate -- I'd go the Cleric route to get Shield of Faith for that sweet sweet +2 AC. This would be a mistake IMHO. The Eldritch Knight's existing Concentration spells are already better, and you'd only get to cast that Shield of Faith once a day... at the cost of using a very precious ASI. A resource you're already low on since you got half of a half-feat (since your Strength still didn't get raised to an even number) and Defensive Duelist (which isn't great for an EK, especially as a low level choice). Being stuck with +2 Strength and no offensive/control feats at level 6 Fighter is going to be rough on your ability to control the field. You also lack Warcaster, which means you can't cast a lot of your spells with your hands full.

By contrast, a typical VHuman SnB EK would have 20 Strength (Or Dex) and Warcaster by now and be carving through enemies, laughing off their silly undead attacks with Shield / PFG&E, and making them explode with Booming Blade OAs if they even think about going for someone else.

[MarauderShields]

I personally would go for the stat increase. A +2 in your attacking stat is not great, especially at level 6. Would higher AC help? Yes, but you already have two defensive feats, as well as the option of buying better armor if you get the chance. I would say better offense would help more, especially since you only seem to want the feat for the first level spell.

Thanks so much for your advice! I'm definitely leaning this way now, and will probably do the +1/+1 option for this level.

Thanks again for taking the time and leaving a comment.

[MarauderShields]

Skipping a few minor rules related stuff...
I'd avoid magic initiate. You'll have better uses for your concentration (you probably already have one, in protection from evil, though I haven't played the campaign so I can't say for sure) than shield of faith. Besides, it's not like you'll have trouble utilizing your 1st level slots anyway. For the 6th ASI/feat, I'd look at one of the following: +1STR & +1 DEX/WIS/INT, warcaster, or resilient wis (though protection from evil can take some pressure off the last one). I lean towards the stat bump and then warcaster at 8, by which point you probably want to have booming blade (and hopefully protection from evil -and later on indomitable- will be enough help for the wisdom saves).

Deciding between shadow blade and blur is what you should be thinking about the most, imo. Both are good spells for an EK, but since I don't know the module and since I don't know the rest of the party, I can't say which one it would be better for you to take. Still, I think this will be an important choice.

Thanks for taking the time to go through this so thoroughly -- really appreciate it. Definitely going to the +1 to STR and INT route at this point. Quick question re Blur vs Mirror Image.

I know typically for a high AC character blur is a much better option. However, given the one the amount of other options its competing with for a concentration slot, what would your thoughts be on using mirror image instead given that it's not a concentration spell, allowing for its boost to defense while also using shadow blade, as opposed to juggling the two. A

[MarauderShields]

This would be a mistake IMHO. The Eldritch Knight's existing Concentration spells are already better, and you'd only get to cast that Shield of Faith once a day... at the cost of using a very precious ASI. A resource you're already low on since you got half of a half-feat (since your Strength still didn't get raised to an even number) and Defensive Duelist (which isn't great for an EK, especially as a low level choice). Being stuck with +2 Strength and no offensive/control feats at level 6 Fighter is going to be rough on your ability to control the field. You also lack Warcaster, which means you can't cast a lot of your spells with your hands full.

By contrast, a typical VHuman SnB EK would have 20 Strength (Or Dex) and Warcaster by now and be carving through enemies, laughing off their silly undead attacks with Shield / PFG&E, and making them explode with Booming Blade OAs if they even think about going for someone else.

Thanks so much for taking the time to answer. Definitely steering clear for Magic Initiate at this point. This is probably my 3.5e love talking, but I've just never gotten on board with maxing ability scores, especially over choosing feats. Right now, my character gets a +5 to hit, compared to the +8 I'd be getting with maxed Str, which just doesn't add up to too much damaged difference when going by averages. Still, my preference for feats definitely got the best of me this time, and I've ignored raising my Str for a bit too long, so that's probably where my next level is gonna go. And yeah, warcaster is a must at lvl 8 -- for now I'm getting by on the free action drop sword bonus action summon it back to my hand trick. But with war magic, I'll just be losing an attack, so yeah, warcaster is on its way.

Also, why do you find DD a bad feat for an EK -- it's probably one of my most used feats in this campaign, and any other campaign where I go melee.

[Nikushimi]

Allow me to throw my two cents into this if you will.

I am currently playing an EK currently. My first actual DnD 5e character actually. Albeit, I deviated a little bit due to campaign roleplaying reasons (I'm now a EK/Fey Warlock), but anyways.

I don't have many concentration spells personally, but I have done my research some and have found that when it comes to the front lines it is good to have some defensive options.

That being said, since you have PFG&E that basically gives you Blur against those types of creatures IF you know what type those creatures are.

Being that this is CoS they are most likely Fiends or Undead, but if you run into something that isn't any of those types that you can choose from you might be in trouble.

However, in this case you should take Mirror Image. Even on the off chance that you run into something that PFG&E can't be effective against you can still have a chance to avoid damage with your images.

As much as I love the thought of Blur, I would go with Mirror Image.

The only thing I am curious about and would ask your DM on is....does your PFG&E also effect your Mirror Images since if you cast PFG&E on yourself beforehand, and then Mirror Image...technically they're images of you and you have PFG&E on you. So perhaps the disadvantage on attack rolls works for your Mirror Images as well.

Consider the images need to be hit to disappear, but that's a DM call. I might allow it if I was DM'ing, but it depends.

Long story short. Take Mirror Image.

And I agree with the others. You need your stats up. Currently they are quite low, especially your main attack stat which seems to be Strength.

[LudicSavant]

Thanks so much for taking the time to answer. Definitely steering clear for Magic Initiate at this point. This is probably my 3.5e love talking, but I've just never gotten on board with maxing ability scores, especially over choosing feats. Right now, my character gets a +5 to hit, compared to the +8 I'd be getting with maxed Str, which just doesn't add up to too much damaged difference when going by averages.

Did you actually do the math on "going by the averages" or did you just assume? Because I can assure you, it is in fact a big difference.

Let's say you're facing, say, an AC 17 enemy. Your EK build's average damage (after accounting for accuracy, crits, etc) is 8.1. With +5 Strength or Dex, it would be 14.25 (~176% of your damage). You also lack Warcaster, which means no casting Shield or getting Booming Blade OAs or the like.


Also, why do you find DD a bad feat for an EK

Because Eldritch Knight has a lot of high value reactions and excellent defense without it, and because it's delaying you getting things that Eldritch Knights need more.

My concern is that you're not building a tank so much as you're building a turtle, a character with relatively weak offense and control who enemies can just decide to walk around and murder their allies. Or who lets fights get drawn out so that you use up more resources and take more damage anyways.


Cantrips; Green Flame Blade, Firebolt

With only +1 Int, Fire Bolt isn't going to do much. Your best bet is generally to grab cantrips that don't depend much on your casting stat. Also, you should generally be taking Booming Blade / Warcaster rather than Green-Flame on an Eldritch Knight.

[MarauderShields]

Did you actually do the math on "going by the averages" or did you just assume? Because I can assure you, it is in fact a big difference.

Let's say you're facing, say, an AC 17 enemy. Your EK build's average damage (after accounting for accuracy, crits, etc) is 8.1. With +5 Strength or Dex, it would be 14.25 (~176% of your damage). You also lack Warcaster, which means no casting Shield or getting Booming Blade OAs or the like.

So I have been doing the math on this and getting different numbers -- avg damage being 3.94875 vs 7.035. What formulas are you using for your results? To me, again, an average 3 points of damage difference does not add up to so much, especially compared to some other benefits you're getting from defensive bonuses -- i.e. don't need to spend an action on shield or second wind as often as if I didn't have them -- meaning I do more attacks overall. Also, quick note, as an EK you don't need warcaster to cast a spell and end a turn with a weapon in hand. Drop with free action, cast with action, bonus action to draw blade back into hand using weapon bond. This does become a problem with war magic later on because you'll want the bonus action for an extra attack, but for now that's fine.



Because Eldritch Knight has a lot of high value reactions and excellent defense without it, and because it's delaying you getting things that Eldritch Knights need more.

Fair point! My one reason for having gone so defense heavy is because CoS is such a heavy hitting campaign. I can think of two encounters I would've died in so far without my bonuses to defense.


My concern is that you're not building a tank so much as you're building a turtle, a character with relatively weak offense and control who enemies can just decide to walk around and murder their allies. Or who lets fights get drawn out so that you use up more resources and take more damage anyways.

You're right about this one for sure -- that's why I'm so keen on going for shadow blade to increase some damage output. My control is pretty bad though, and that isn't something I can really change at this point. As penance I'll go full control bard in my next campaign. :smallbiggrin:


With only +1 Int, Fire Bolt isn't going to do much. Your best bet is generally to grab cantrips that don't depend much on your casting stat. Also, you should generally be taking Booming Blade / Warcaster rather than Green-Flame on an Eldritch Knight.

The goal is to get that to +2 so for a total of +5, which while not ideal for endgame purposes, isn't bad for now -- and the main reason to get this in the first place is to add options for range, not to rely on it. Sure, it's not great, but it's better to have something to do while enemies are far away rather than nothing.

I'm not the biggest fan of booming blade (had a party member use it in a campaign to hilariously dull effect) but I want to sincerely thank you for taking as much time talking to me on this as you have, so I'll switch it over at level 8 (when I should have warcaster) and see how that goes.

[Corran]

Thanks for taking the time to go through this so thoroughly -- really appreciate it. Definitely going to the +1 to STR and INT route at this point.
No problem. Yeah, most likely your best option. Especially if you end up taking shadow blade, cause you'll want your increased damage (shadow blade, but also from dueling and possibly from war magic) to land.


Quick question re Blur vs Mirror Image.

I know typically for a high AC character blur is a much better option. However, given the one the amount of other options its competing with for a concentration slot, what would your thoughts be on using mirror image instead given that it's not a concentration spell, allowing for its boost to defense while also using shadow blade, as opposed to juggling the two.
Mirror image is a good spell when going against enemies that hit like a truck. I know of at least one such enemy in CoS, but there are probably more. I agree that it would combine better with shadow blade than with blur or protection from evil, but still, I see some issues if your plan is to combine SB with mirror image. They are both illusion spells, so that's two picks outside of abjuration and evocation. Manageable, but this is still opportunity cost (cause you are not getting find familiar, or misty step, or sth else). Then, since shadow blade is a bonus action spell, that means that you can't bring both online until round 2 (unless you go into the fight with MI already on, but that's a gamble). So most likely that means using mirror image on round 2. The images will probably do their worth even then, cause they tend to burn fast on frontliners, but given that you usually want to use this spell against sth that hits hard (as opposed to using it against many enemies that individually hit for little), and given that SB will be your big gun spell, that's one round where you didn't reduce the risk of getting hit for lots of damage after which you are facing a tough concentration check. But most importantly, it's the action cost. It will take away from you two attacks to cast mirror image. That's a big opportunity cost when shadow blade is on. And finally, it's the slots. You wont have all that many 2nd level slots to work with. I'd say no on a typical EK, but if you get extra picks outside of abjuration and evocation, go for it. Just make sure to use it in the right circumstances (so, not against many mobs for example), and also try to cast it just before combat starts when possible, if you don't have an issue with doing sth like that. And be mindful of your number of slots.

So, I'd use protection from evil whenever it applies against the enemies, cause it's cheap and very effective (and it covers one major weakness of yours, which is your mental saves). Use mirror image when fighting something big that hits really hard, to the point that it's probably not worth risking to lose concentration on shadow blade. Otherwise use shadow blade. And if it's a fight with minions, against which protection from evil does not apply, instead of using the expensive shadow blade (which you'll save for a more difficult fight), you can just tank and fall back to shield and thunderwave if necessary. Sounds like a plan.

ps: Picking blur instead of shadow blade works pretty much the same in terms of tactics, though essentially blur (and possibly with some back up from shield when really needed) replaces both shadow blade and mirror image and you are left with one free pick outside of abjuration/evocation. The catch being that blur is slightly less reliable compared to shadow blade (since almost anything gets hurt by psychic, while some things can see through illusions), and that your fights will last longer (though the last one is not necessarily a bad thing).

[LudicSavant]

So I have been doing the math on this and getting different numbers -- avg damage being 3.94875 vs 7.035. What formulas are you using for your results?

Your math is wrong.

Chance of normal hit * average normal hit damage + chance of critical hit * average critical hit damage. Multiplied by the number of attacks.

Your chance of hitting AC 17 with +5 to hit is 45%. 40% normal hits, 5% crits, 55% misses. Your average damage on a normal hit is (1d8+4=8.5) and on a crit is (2d8+4=13). Ergo, (0.4x8.5+0.05x13)x2 attacks = 8.1

Your chance of hitting AC 17 with +8 to hit is 60%. 55% normal hits, 5% crits, 40% misses. Your average damage on a normal hit is (1d8+7=11.5) and on a crit is (2d8+7=16). Ergo, (0.55*11.5+0.05*16)x2 attacks = 14.25


Also, quick note, as an EK you don't need warcaster to cast a spell and end a turn with a weapon in hand. Drop with free action, cast with action, bonus action to draw blade back into hand using weapon bond.

I know. That doesn't actually address the issue I pointed out to you.

The problem is that it doesn't matter if you can cast a spell and waste your bonus action on your turn. You want to cast shield or OA when it's not your turn. Ended turn with your weapon in hand? No Shield for you.

[Eriol]

By contrast, a typical VHuman SnB EK would have 20 Strength (Or Dex) and Warcaster by now and be carving through enemies, laughing off their silly undead attacks with Shield / PFG&E, and making them explode with Booming Blade OAs if they even think about going for someone else.
How exactly would a VHuman pure EK get 20 strength at level 6 AND have war caster? It would be required to have rolled stats, because they can't take war caster at level 1, because it has a requirement to be able to cast a spell, and a level 1 fighter cannot, thus you can't take it as your VHuman feat right away. At maximum you could have 19 strength with a half-str feat at 1.

Level 1: 15 str from point buy, 16 from heavy armor master (or whatever half-str feat), and +1 from VHuman stat = 17str
Level 4: Warcaster
Level 6: +2 str from ASI

19 strength at level 6, not 20.

Or is there another path I'm not aware of? I'd be happy to be proven wrong here. If you could take warcaster at 1 then there's no problem, but you can't. If you multi-classed to something that could, you'd have to wait for level 7 to pull this off because of delayed ASIs.


That said, the durability and utility you talk about, and other aspects of your OP are right, but I wondered about this 20 strength thing.

[Corran]

The problem is that it doesn't matter if you can cast a spell and waste your bonus action on your turn. You want to cast shield or OA when it's not your turn. Ended turn with your weapon in hand? No Shield for you.
And if you don't end your turn with your weapon in hand, thinking you'll be able to summon it back with your bonus action next round, then no OA. And it's a shame for an EK to ignore the chance of doing an OA, and that's because EK's can both be tanky and have good OA's, which is a nice combination if you think about it.

Edit: I meant that as a reply to the op btw, just caught on from what you said in that post.

[LudicSavant]

That said, the durability and utility you talk about, and other aspects of your OP are right, but I wondered about this 20 strength thing.

It would be required to have rolled stats, because they can't take war caster at level 1, because it has a requirement to be able to cast a spell, and a level 1 fighter cannot

Ah, thanks, I forgot about that little technicality. In that case you could take 20 Strength and another feat, or 18 Strength, Warcaster, and another feat.


And if you don't end your turn with your weapon in hand, thinking you'll be able to summon it back with your bonus action next round, then no OA. And it's a shame for an EK to ignore the chance of doing an OA, and that's because EK's can both be tanky and have good OA's, which is a nice combination if you think about it.

Edit: I meant that as a reply to the op btw, just caught on from what you said in that post.

Yep, exactly.

One of the best things to do as an Eldritch Knight is to be just tanky enough that enemies don't want to target you, then get in their face, and use a Booming Blade OA when they try to go for a teammate instead (getting both your damage and your rider). And that's on top of Warcaster's other benefits (being able to use both hands, and getting Advantage to maintain your precious Concentration, which along with your Con proficiency means it's tough to break).