What's the point of Danse Macabre?

[Segev]

This fifth level spell animates 5 undead skeletons or zombies for one hour, with Concentration.

A fifth level casting of animate dead maintains control over 8 skeletons or zombies for another 24 hours, with no Concentration.

Why would you prepare, let alone spend the spell slot casting, danse macabre when you could spend the same spell slot maintaining control over a larger number of undead?

[Eragon123]

Because Animate Dead takes a minute to cast whereas Danse Macabre is an Action. Especially useful if your skeletons/zombies you've already made with animate dead fall in battle but left good enough copses behind. You can get them going for a round 2 and if you are especially lucky, they will now be surrounding the enemy.

[MaxWilson]

This fifth level spell animates 5 undead skeletons or zombies for one hour, with Concentration.

A fifth level casting of animate dead maintains control over 8 skeletons or zombies for another 24 hours, with no Concentration.

Why would you prepare, let alone spend the spell slot casting, danse macabre when you could spend the same spell slot maintaining control over a larger number of undead?

Not only is Danse Macabre faster to cast, it also gives better stats to the skeletons, which is important if you're going up against something with high AC. You can wind up doing twice as much damage as with Animate Dead.

Animate Dead is better for long-term stacking, but if you just want something to fight for a few minutes and then you're done, Danse Macabre is arguably better despite the concentration requirement.

Also, you might be a warlock and only have Danse Macabre, not Animate Dead.

[Segev]

Fair enough on the Warlock front. The question I have is how it will be more effective to conjure undead on the spot than to have them already created and controlled.

The better stats is a good point; do they stack with the Necromancer's subclass bonus?

[MaxWilson]

Fair enough on the Warlock front. The question I have is how it will be more effective to conjure undead on the spot than to have them already created and controlled.

The better stats is a good point; do they stack with the Necromancer's subclass bonus?

Yes, they do stack.

If you're a serious necromancer, Animate Dead will almost always be better due to stackability from no-concentration. Then you can stack on another concentration spell as well, like Web or Cloudkill (undead are immune and can grapple creatures to keep them inside).

[SociopathFriend]

Fair enough on the Warlock front. The question I have is how it will be more effective to conjure undead on the spot than to have them already created and controlled.

The better stats is a good point; do they stack with the Necromancer's subclass bonus?

Yep. Plays merry hell with my stat sheet having to basically have not only my different possible undead and their weapons but having to factor in whether they're Danse or Animated.

To boot- Animate Dead needs to be cast on Medium or Small Humanoids
Danse Macabre can be cast on anything so long it's a Small or Medium Corpse
You could, RAW, send your Animated Dead in to fight and if they're destroyed, toss a Danse Macabre on them to get them back up.
And if combat starts going south in a big fight- even one Danse Macabre Skeleton or Zombie is actually quite potent and the base spell gets you up to five.

A normal Zombie Animated Dead (not a Necromancy Wizard)
HP: 22
Slam to hit: +3
Slam damage: 1d6 + 1

Necromancy Wizard Zombie Animated Dead
HP: 22 + Wizard level
Slam to hit: +3
Slam damage: 1d6 + 1 + Wizard Proficiency Modifier

Necromancy Wizard Danse Macabre Zombie
HP: 22 + Wizard level
Slam to hit: +3 + Wizard Intelligence Modifier
Slam damage: 1d6 + 1 + Wizard Proficiency Modifier + Wizard Intelligence Modifier

Skeletons will be squishier but better for hits and damage.
A Danse Macabre set of Skeleton archers is no joke. Keep them around for a few turns and watch the damage they can put out.


Something to remember for those who want to cart around Undead in a Bag of Holding- a skeleton weighs 12-15% of your body weight. So if you want to cart around corpses you'll be able to pack a lot more skeletal corpses in there then fleshy ones.

My previous setup before I started valuing my Concentration more (the Wizard of all things now has the 2nd highest hp in the party) was:
Several skeletons in a Bag of Holding - no Animate Undead or Danse Macabre
Have a Familiar
Have your Familiar as its Action dump out the Bag of Holding to relieve it of its contents
Use your Action to cast Danse Macabre
Bonus Action for your command to the Skeletons to rise and start firing their bows at a given target
Skeletons aren't noted to be too stupid to pick up their weapons like Zombies so as long as your DM isn't nitpicking Proficiency (which is a problem for BOTH Animate Dead and Danse Macabre) this will get you setup to fight in one turn

[Sigreid]

Other than letting warlocks get to play with animated dead, I think it boils down to do you need support right now, or can you wait a little bit? Animate dead is only the superior spell if you have the time.

And, now that I think about it, Danse Macabre lets you use undead with 0 chance that something will go wrong and have your animated dead run amok. I mean, necromancers should avoid angering sphinx's in their lair where the sphinx can more or less just decide to move time to the other side of the spells duration leaving the necromancer to deal with uncontrolled animated dead. You can't do that with Danse.

[Segev]

Other than letting warlocks get to play with animated dead, I think it boils down to do you need support right now, or can you wait a little bit? Animate dead is only the superior spell if you have the time.

And, now that I think about it, Danse Macabre lets you use undead with 0 chance that something will go wrong and have your animated dead run amok. I mean, necromancers should avoid angering sphinx's in their lair where the sphinx can more or less just decide to move time to the other side of the spells duration leaving the necromancer to deal with uncontrolled animated dead. You can't do that with Danse.

Well, my thought was more that if you're using undead, you won't be making them on the spot; you'll have them already.

I suppose having the spell on hand to re-animate those that've just been taken down is a good purpose. ...the question is, can you keep re-casting it on the same corpses over and over?

[Dr. Cliché]

As an alternative comparison, how does Danse Macabre stack up against Animate Objects?

[Daithi]

You can add 5 more skeletons to your existing Animate Dead bone crew.
You can quickly just animate 5 skeletons as needed.

At its base level, if you're not a necromancer, the Animate Undead spell only animates 1 undead. You need higher levels or several castings to get more, which you can use another casting of Animate Undead to regain control over. Plus you need to handle what to do with them if you don't keep reasserting control.

Danse Macabre gives you 5 that just become a pile of bones after an hour (or end of concentration).

[Segev]

You can add 5 more skeletons to your existing Animate Dead bone crew.
You can quickly just animate 5 skeletons as needed.

At its base level, if you're not a necromancer, the Animate Undead spell only animates 1 undead. You need higher levels or several castings to get more, which you can use another casting of Animate Undead to regain control over. Plus you need to handle what to do with them if you don't keep reasserting control.

Danse Macabre gives you 5 that just become a pile of bones after an hour (or end of concentration).

Already got some good explanations, but I feel the need to clarify why this one is relying on flawed premises.

Animate dead does take longer to set up. However, to assume the wizard is walking into a corpse-laden situation with no prep time but has danse macabre prepared is odd.

My assumption is that the wizard has had animate dead for a while if he has danse macabre. Comparing spell slot to spell slot, he can already have animated skeletons and zombies. For a fifth level spell slot, he can reassert control over 8 (9, of you’re a necromancer) skeletons or zombies he already has. Or he can temporarily animate 5 skeletons or zombies for as long as he concentrates, up to one hour.

Any logic relying on the shorter cast time or on the animation limit (rather than the reassertion of control limit) of animate dead is relying on the flawed premise that the caster must be animating from scratch.

The good arguments for danse macabre so far center around the idea that it can be used on corpses from fallen zombies or skeletons and that it gives an additional bonus to hit and damage.

Comparing to animate objects, though, even small animated objects have more hit points and better AC. And you get ten of them. With the caster’s stat mod added to attack and damage, the zombies probably are more accurate and damaging, but not by a whole lot.

If you go for five medium animated objects, the animated objects are just flat-out better. This is particularly sad because a corpse is an object.

Now, zombies have more strength, and animate objects only lasts 1 minute, vs danse macabre’s hour long duration. But if you’re animating for a combat, a minute is all you need. And if you’re animating for strength, a pair of large objects each has more strength than the five zombies would. A single huge object still more.

[Cikomyr2]

How the hell can I recreate Michael Jackson's Thriller otherwise?!

[Crgaston]

How the hell can I recreate Michael Jackson's Thriller otherwise?!


Right??
Having the mooks you just slew on the way to the BBE rise up from the dead and start attacking is just too freaking cool!!!

Segev, I suspect Danse Macabre was conceived as a Warlock spell, but then they decided it wouldn't make sense if Wizards couldn't cast it, too. There are definitely better options for a Wizard.

[Segev]

How the hell can I recreate Michael Jackson's Thriller otherwise?!

Well, there's basic animate dead, which will do it more faithfully since you can get more zombies up and dancing with you. :smallcool:

The comparison to animate objects makes it particularly depressing, especially with the realization that you can animate Medium corpses as "objects" and get more out of them.

[Contrast]

Any logic relying on the shorter cast time or on the animation limit (rather than the reassertion of control limit) of animate dead is relying on the flawed premise that the caster must be animating from scratch.

I wouldn't say its a flawed premise in so much as a realistic hurdle the caster has to overcome and part of weighing up the two spells.

Not everyone has a Bag of Holding they can keep corpses in (or the desire to tote corpses around with them). Not everywhere will welcome a wizard with an entourage of undead following them around. Etc. If you fight a battle and all your skeletons died and then need to fight again in a few minutes the difference is very relevant.

My experience is that PCs find themselves in the presence of corpses while fighting more often than they find themselves in the presence of people happy that the party is being followed around by a load of shuffling corpses. It's a trade off (and one you're apparently happy to make) with pros and cons for both spells and that's fine. It is a relevant difference between the two spells and I don't think you can just handwave it away as irrelevant.

[Segev]

I wouldn't say its a flawed premise in so much as a realistic hurdle the caster has to overcome and part of weighing up the two spells. Not...really. It's only a hurdle of you're assuming you're forced to animate corpses RIGHT NOW.


Not everyone has a Bag of Holding they can keep corpses in (or the desire to tote corpses around with them). Not everywhere will welcome a wizard with an entourage of undead following them around. Etc. If you fight a battle and all your skeletons died and then need to fight again in a few minutes the difference is very relevant.[/qutoe]You don't carry the corpses around in a bag. You cast animate dead when you find them. If you don't have time, sure, bag 'em up and carry them until it's convenient. But by that argument, danse macabre doesn't help, either, unless you're less than an hour away from when you need them. The idea here is that you're preparing days ahead of time.

If the town won't let you wander in with your corpses, dress them up so they don't look like corpses. By the time you can cast danse macabre, you can use seeming to make them look like living retainers. Or you can leave them outside of town. Since we're positing a lack of bags of corpses being carried around, you can't assert that danse macabre will be likely more useful in town, where it's less than likely there will be five corpses lying around to cast it on. At least, not until some have already been made out of the random townsfolk. Far more useful in a pinch situation in town is animate objects; there are tons of objects around.

The only point that holds water here is "if you're in a fight and all your undead minions died," because yes, being able to reanimate them on the spot is nice, even if only for an hour. Again, though, you're competing with animate objects, and the fact that you didn't have to wait for some of your minions to be destroyed to have targets for it (or that you DO have targets for it if you did wait for that, as corpses are objects).

[QUOTE=Contrast;24439350]My experience is that PCs find themselves in the presence of corpses while fighting more often than they find themselves in the presence of people happy that the party is being followed around by a load of shuffling corpses. It's a trade off (and one you're apparently happy to make) with pros and cons for both spells and that's fine. It is a relevant difference between the two spells and I don't think you can just handwave it away as irrelevant.

As said, you can disguise your undead minions, or leave them outside of town, or both. And animate objects will be both more welcome and more easily targeted in town than danse macabre, as well, not to mention more powerful in most circumstances where you couldn't walk outside of town to pick up your minions if you needed them.

[Contrast]

As said, you can disguise your undead minions, or leave them outside of town, or both. And animate objects will be both more welcome and more easily targeted in town than danse macabre, as well, not to mention more powerful in most circumstances where you couldn't walk outside of town to pick up your minions if you needed them.

I agree Animate Objects is the superior spell. *shrugs* Welcome to D&D where we fill half of our rulebooks with mediocre spells that rarely get cast. Realistically speaking a lot of the spells in the PHB are there for NPCs to cast.

There are a million issues with just disguising or leaving the undead outside of town so I think all I can say there is that the issues you face with it are going to vary hugely depending on setting, specific local circumstances in game and DM. Clearly you don't think its much of an issue at all, in games I have played in it would have been sufficiently problematic that no-one has ever even considered trying it to be worth the hassle.

[Cikomyr2]

Well, there's basic animate dead, which will do it more faithfully since you can get more zombies up and dancing with you. :smallcool:

The comparison to animate objects makes it particularly depressing, especially with the realization that you can animate Medium corpses as "objects" and get more out of them.

First of all, there's a massive difference between bringing your backup dancers and turning the enemy's fallen as your new crew.

One is adding insult to injury. It's about disposable bodies you throw until they burn out. Tell me there isn't a better representation of Broadway

[stoutstien]

I agree Animate Objects is the superior spell. *shrugs* Welcome to D&D where we fill half of our rulebooks with mediocre spells that rarely get cast. Realistically speaking a lot of the spells in the PHB are there for NPCs to cast.

There are a million issues with just disguising or leaving the undead outside of town so I think all I can say there is that the issues you face with it are going to vary hugely depending on setting, specific local circumstances in game and DM. Clearly you don't think its much of an issue at all, in games I have played in it would have been sufficiently problematic that no-one has ever even considered trying it to be worth the hassle.

While very specific, DM does last an hour and skeletons can preform more tasks than AO. If you need a team to run a ballista or anything else you would need 5+ disposal workers DM works in a pinch.
Warlocks generally don't have a lot of Swiss army spells to work with and having this on SR recharge gives it a lot of up time.

[Witty Username]

Danse Macabre animations add your int to atk and damage rolls, making them better when you need quality over quantity. Also, 5 corpses are easier to control than 5 skeletons you need to extend control every day (which by RAW, I think reads that you cannot regain control once it is lost, which makes time keeping surprisingly frustrating). Furthermore, minions break, while you are making more you can use the slots for manse to keep your army strong.

Edit: also, animate objects is nonmagical damage if I remember, while skeletons can use magic arrow to mitigate that restriction.

[Segev]

Danse Macabre animations add your int to atk and damage rolls, making them better when you need quality over quantity. Also, 5 corpses are easier to control than 5 skeletons you need to extend control every day (which by RAW, I think reads that you cannot regain control once it is lost, which makes time keeping surprisingly frustrating). Furthermore, minions break, while you are making more you can use the slots for manse to keep your army strong.

Edit: also, animate objects is nonmagical damage if I remember, while skeletons can use magic arrow to mitigate that restriction.

All of which are good arguments for danse macabre over animate objects if you couldn't animate 5 corposes as objects.


Do Warlocks not get animate objects? If so, that at least makes danse macabre a Warlock spell that some Wizards might be silly enough to also prepare, rather than a totally overshadowed spell.

The sad thing is, it could be better if it even just did more animate bodies than animate objects does.

Or if it wasn't limited to Medium or Small corpses. A means of getting that ogre zombie (or, frighteningly, beholder zombie) from the Monster Manual would be pretty nice.


Weird thought: do already-animate zombies and skeletons count as "corpses?" Could you use danse macabre prophylactically, essentially giving your extant forces a boost and, if they get reduced to 0 hp, have their still-animate nature from being animated by animate dead take over?

[EdenIndustries]

This fifth level spell animates 5 undead skeletons or zombies for one hour, with Concentration.

A fifth level casting of animate dead maintains control over 8 skeletons or zombies for another 24 hours, with no Concentration.


Sorry am I missing something here? A fifth level casting of Animate Dead should give you control of 5, just like Danse Macabre, no? Animate Dead is a 3rd level spell that animates 1 creature, and an additional 2 for every spell level. So:

3rd level - 1 creature
4th level - 3 creatures
5th level - 5 creatures

Where are you getting 8 skeletons/zombies? Do I have my math wrong on how Animate Dead works?

[Deathtongue]

Danse Macabre is freakishly strong on a Necromancer Wizard that's using skeletons. It can even out-damage Animate Objects.

The trick is that you prepare extra broken scimitars and order them to wield and then attack with two broken scimitars. You may have to make arrangements to carry the corpses into battle with you or (possibly with Familiar, Unseen Servant, or Tiny Servant shenanigans) to put the scimitars on the skeleton piles right before you cast Danse Macabre.

Two shots of 1d6+6-10 damage, Granted, there are probably other weapons they could use, but we know for sure that they have proficiency with broken scimitars. If your DM is being a pill about getting broken scimitars, just create some fake skeletons through Animate Dead, take their scimitars, then destroy them. Then distribute them to your actual skeletons.

Granted, even with this trick there are still some logistical and tactical problems with Danse Macabre WRT Animate Objects. Toting around skeletons requires a lot more work that may not be possible in certain situations (like cramped dungeons, or in town). And the skeletons aren't all that much more durable than the Animate Objects at the cost of being easier to hit and having fewer of them. Their only real advantage is that at very high levels, they have a good chance of surviving an enemy's Fireball. They also lack blindsight or the ability to fly. But c'mon, it's a possible 5 * (2d6 + 22) damage a round at level 13.

[Cikomyr2]

Sorry am I missing something here? A fifth level casting of Animate Dead should give you control of 5, just like Danse Macabre, no? Animate Dead is a 3rd level spell that animates 1 creature, and an additional 2 for every spell level. So:

3rd level - 1 creature
4th level - 3 creatures
5th level - 5 creatures

Where are you getting 8 skeletons/zombies? Do I have my math wrong on how Animate Dead works?

I think he meant you reassert control over 8 skeletons. 4+2x2

[EdenIndustries]

I think he meant you reassert control over 8 skeletons. 4+2x2

Ah, thank you!

[MaxWilson]

Do Warlocks not get animate objects? If so, that at least makes danse macabre a Warlock spell that some Wizards might be silly enough to also prepare, rather than a totally overshadowed spell.

Warlocks do not get Animate Objects.

IME the duration on Animate Objects, coupled with their lack of missile weapons, is frustratingly short. It doesn't give you much opportunity to prep the battlefield after gathering your troops, and it means you can't really use your troops in more than one skirmish. I agree that being able to gather troops anytime, anywhere is important, but if I were fighting in town I'd view Tiny Servant as a better competitor to Danse Macabre than Animate Objects.

[Segev]

Danse Macabre is freakishly strong on a Necromancer Wizard that's using skeletons. It can even out-damage Animate Objects.

The trick is that you prepare extra broken scimitars and order them to wield and then attack with two broken scimitars. You may have to make arrangements to carry the corpses into battle with you or (possibly with Familiar, Unseen Servant, or Tiny Servant shenanigans) to put the scimitars on the skeleton piles right before you cast Danse Macabre.

Two shots of 1d6+6-10 damage, Granted, there are probably other weapons they could use, but we know for sure that they have proficiency with broken scimitars. If your DM is being a pill about getting broken scimitars, just create some fake skeletons through Animate Dead, take their scimitars, then destroy them. Then distribute them to your actual skeletons.

Granted, even with this trick there are still some logistical and tactical problems with Danse Macabre WRT Animate Objects. Toting around skeletons requires a lot more work that may not be possible in certain situations (like cramped dungeons, or in town). And the skeletons aren't all that much more durable than the Animate Objects at the cost of being easier to hit and having fewer of them. Their only real advantage is that at very high levels, they have a good chance of surviving an enemy's Fireball. They also lack blindsight or the ability to fly. But c'mon, it's a possible 5 * (2d6 + 22) damage a round at level 13.Eh, getting non-broken scimitars can't be that hard, and if the DM is being a stickler, break them, yourself. (I'd give any DM who ruled that totally-good-repair scimitars were something the skeletons were not proficient with because they weren't broken a serious raised eyebrow and long look, but hey, he's the DM, so if he wants to be silly...I can, too.)

This is all good stuff; thanks for sharing it. Is this really that much stronger than a Necromancer Wizard arming his skeletons from animate dead with the same weapons, though? He loses an extra hit of his Int mod to their attack and damage, but that's it, isn't it?

As for transporting them, how about having your animate dead minions carrying the corpses you mean to target with danse macabre on their backs?

Again, though, the big sticking point for me is one of action economy: if you're going to animate 5 corpses that you're bringing with you to fight, why not animate them when you get them and then just spend the 5th level slot maintaining control?

Best reason I have seen so far remains re-animating a group you had taken down, now even stronger.


I think he meant you reassert control over 8 skeletons. 4+2x2


Ah, thank you!Right, that's exactly what I was talking about. Action economy-wise, you can't beat having already cast the spell, let alone having cast it in such a way that you get more undead minions out of it.


Warlocks do not get Animate Objects.

IME the duration on Animate Objects, coupled with their lack of missile weapons, is frustratingly short. It doesn't give you much opportunity to prep the battlefield after gathering your troops, and it means you can't really use your troops in more than one skirmish. I agree that being able to gather troops anytime, anywhere is important, but if I were fighting in town I'd view Tiny Servant as a better competitor to Danse Macabre than Animate Objects.
If you're having to cast danse macabre in town because the townsfolk would have reacted badly to you being trailed by a small horde of zombies, you probably aren't going to have time to prep the battlefield. The battle's already come to you. You're casting the spell to get some not-so-warm bodies on the initiative tracker right now, and thus the minute vs. the hour duration makes little difference while the quality and access to the source material for your minions is much more pressing.

If you're jumped in town and need minions, animate objects will get you minions. If you happen to have corpses lying around when you're jumped, animate objects can target them or any other convenient objects. And the corpses are still likely comparable to if not stronger than what danse macabre would give you for the same corpses. (If they're Small, you get more of them, and if they're Medium, you get the same number but they have better AC and hp and I think better to-hit and damage even with danse macabre adding your casting stat mod to the undead's to-hit and damage numbers.)

But, as a spell that Warlocks (who don't get animate dead or animate objects) get, danse macabre serves a purpose to them! It's especially nice because it can be used as a "guard our short rest" spell, animating 5 corpses and then maintaining concentration throughout the rest to let the minions kill anything that tries to interrupt. And then the Warlock has the spell slot back!

[Deathtongue]

Eh, getting non-broken scimitars can't be that hard, and if the DM is being a stickler, break them, yourself. (I'd give any DM who ruled that totally-good-repair scimitars were something the skeletons were not proficient with because they weren't broken a serious raised eyebrow and long look, but hey, he's the DM, so if he wants to be silly...I can, too.)I'm just saying the DM can't use RAW to completely shut you down here. I've run into this issue before when I wanted to arm my skeletons with greatswords; they technically don't have proficiency with anything other than what's on their stat block, i.e. shortbows and broken scimitars. Even though I think it would be reasonable for skeletons to be wielding silvered shortswords.


This is all good stuff; thanks for sharing it. Is this really that much stronger than a Necromancer Wizard arming his skeletons from animate dead with the same weapons, though? He loses an extra hit of his Int mod to their attack and damage, but that's it, isn't it?It's a +4 to +5 bonus to attack rolls, to speak of nothing for an extra +4 to +5 to damage across 10 attacks, so... yes? Plenty of Necromancer wizards still roll with Animate Objects. It's not a perfect replacement for Animate Objects, since the skeletons will have durability and logistic issues, but if what you want is pure, unadultered damage than Danse Macabre can with preparation beat out one of the best damaging spells in the game.

[MaxWilson]

If you're having to cast danse macabre in town because the townsfolk would have reacted badly to you being trailed by a small horde of zombies, you probably aren't going to have time to prep the battlefield. The battle's already come to you. You're casting the spell to get some not-so-warm bodies on the initiative tracker right now, and thus the minute vs. the hour duration makes little difference while the quality and access to the source material for your minions is much more pressing.

On the one hand, I agree with your main point: Danse Macabre is generally worse than Animate Dead.

On the other hand, I think you're overestimating Animate Objects quite a lot. There's a large middle ground between "no time to go retrieve zombies and sneak them into town" and "only care about the next few seconds." If you're e.g. attacked in the middle of the night by ninjas who are apparently attempting to stage a coup, then once you've dealt with the ninjas sent to kill you and want to go protect other people like the duke and the princess--you don't have time to go get zombies from out of town, but Animate Objects isn't much help either because it burns a 5th level spell slot every 60 seconds. Even if you're just trying to do something as simple pursue a ninja that you see sneaking through the shadows, Animate Objects's short duration (plus lack of missile weapons) makes the spell feel, to me, like there's too much risk of it expiring before anything useful is accomplished.


If you're jumped in town and need minions, animate objects will get you minions. If you happen to have corpses lying around when you're jumped, animate objects can target them or any other convenient objects. And the corpses are still likely comparable to if not stronger than what danse macabre would give you for the same corpses. (If they're Small, you get more of them, and if they're Medium, you get the same number but they have better AC and hp and I think better to-hit and damage even with danse macabre adding your casting stat mod to the undead's to-hit and damage numbers.)

No, much worse. Animate Objects will give you six Medium objects with +5 to hit for 2d6+1 (8) damage and no missile weapons. Danse Macabre, for a non-Necromancer, will give you five skeletons potentially with missile weapons all with up to +9 to hit for 1d6+7(10.5) damage. For a Necromancer that's up to 1d6+13(16.5) damage although more likely to be in the 1d6+11 range. In any case it is clearly better for a Necromancer, plus you get to keep them afterwards for up an to hour.

[Segev]

On the one hand, I agree with your main point: Danse Macabre is generally worse than Animate Dead.

On the other hand, I think you're overestimating Animate Objects quite a lot. There's a large middle ground between "no time to go retrieve zombies and sneak them into town" and "only care about the next few seconds." If you're e.g. attacked in the middle of the night by ninjas who are apparently attempting to stage a coup, then once you've dealt with the ninjas sent to kill you and want to go protect other people like the duke and the princess--you don't have time to go get zombies from out of town, but Animate Objects isn't much help either because it burns a 5th level spell slot every 60 seconds. Even if you're just trying to do something as simple pursue a ninja that you see sneaking through the shadows, Animate Objects's short duration (plus lack of missile weapons) makes the spell feel, to me, like there's too much risk of it expiring before anything useful is accomplished.



No, much worse. Animate Objects will give you six Medium objects with +5 to hit for 2d6+1 (8) damage and no missile weapons. Danse Macabre, for a non-Necromancer, will give you five skeletons potentially with missile weapons all with up to +9 to hit for 1d6+7(10.5) damage. For a Necromancer that's up to 1d6+13(16.5) damage although more likely to be in the 1d6+11 range. In any case it is clearly better for a Necromancer, plus you get to keep them afterwards for up an to hour.

Okay, good point. I appreciate the non-white-room scenario that gives a good example of how the hour long duration actually makes a difference. True, too, that the necromancer gets more oomph out of it due to his class feature only applying to the undead created by his necromancy, not to constructs animated by his transmutation.

[Temperjoke]

I'd say the discussion has largely been had, but yeah, it really boils down to circumstances. I like Danse Macabre as another improvisation tool; you can quickly pop up reinforcements from your enemies in the middle of combat to counter the enemies' newly-arrived reinforcements, for example. But having time to prep means that Animate Dead is generally going to be better.

Optimization aside, there's also the RP aspect for groups who focus on that. Temporary undead, while distasteful, may be seen better than a wizard with an undead retinue (if you didn't take the time to disguise them).

[Deathtongue]

On the other hand, I think you're overestimating Animate Objects quite a lot. There's a large middle ground between "no time to go retrieve zombies and sneak them into town" and "only care about the next few seconds." If you're e.g. attacked in the middle of the night by ninjas who are apparently attempting to stage a coup, then once you've dealt with the ninjas sent to kill you and want to go protect other people like the duke and the princess--you don't have time to go get zombies from out of town, but Animate Objects isn't much help either because it burns a 5th level spell slot every 60 seconds. Even if you're just trying to do something as simple pursue a ninja that you see sneaking through the shadows, Animate Objects's short duration (plus lack of missile weapons) makes the spell feel, to me, like there's too much risk of it expiring before anything useful is accomplished.If you're looking for an offensive spell that will last you for an hour and requires minimal setup such that you can use it immediately if there are ninjas in the night, I don't think there's any eligible spell. Unless you're something like an INT 24 Wizard with a Robe of the Archmagi using Summon Greater Demon.

Danse Macabre has serious logistical issues if you're not being creepy like ordering your Animate Dead skeletons to drag around corpses all day. Carrying around five corpses, even meat-free, is not a trivial task -- you either have to deal with weight issues (especially if your DM makes the reasonable assumption that skeletons don't generate equipment out of thin air) or have to find a source of halfling corpses. Bag of Holding can be a bother because it takes an action to retrieve items from it. And even if you do manage to dump all of the skeletons out of a bag, when you actually use Danse Macabre they'll all end up prone and that's ANOTHER delay unless you're doing something like having your familiar scatter the bones across several squares.

This doesn't really kill the usefulness of the spell, but I don't think it can readily be used in that way you describe unless you feel like being one of those weirdo wizards who have extensive contingencies for everyday tasks. I.e. every morning I put in my dentures, which has a molar in it that's actually a miniature copy of a tooth-shaped treasure chest I'm using with Leomund's Secret Chest.

[Cikomyr2]

Someone ever had a posse of zombies with a Paladin to boost their Con saves?

[stoutstien]

Someone ever had a posse of zombies with a Paladin to boost their Con saves?

I dmed for a party that went pretty big into undead minion army building. oath-breaker Paladin, necromancy wizard, dream druid, and a death cleric.
Not all armies march on their stomach.

[MaxWilson]

If you're looking for an offensive spell that will last you for an hour and requires minimal setup such that you can use it immediately if there are ninjas in the night, I don't think there's any eligible spell. Unless you're something like an INT 24 Wizard with a Robe of the Archmagi using Summon Greater Demon.

Danse Macabre has serious logistical issues if you're not being creepy like ordering your Animate Dead skeletons to drag around corpses all day. Carrying around five corpses, even meat-free, is not a trivial task

What I had in mind was making corpses out of the ninjas, then casting Danse Macabre on the corpses. That neatly solves the equipment issues too.

Step 1: nova to kill the ninjas initially sent after you. E.g. repeated Fireballs. You may take some HP damage but you win.

Step 2: cast Danse Macabre to summon your "reinforcements" so you won't have to nova next time.

Step 3: go hunting.

[BloodBrandy]

Recycling. Use the Danse on your defeated zombos and skellyboys

[Cikomyr2]

I dmed for a party that went pretty big into undead minion army building. oath-breaker Paladin, necromancy wizard, dream druid, and a death cleric.
Not all armies march on their stomach.

I would pay money to play a bona fide evil game in 5e

[stoutstien]

I would pay money to play a bona fide evil game in 5e

I wish they were evil. If anything they were really into recycling and upcycling.

[Cikomyr2]

I wish they were evil. If anything they were really into recycling and upcycling.

Oh man. I see.

Well, must still have been one fun romp.

[stoutstien]

Oh man. I see.

Well, must still have been one fun romp.

Good group all around. It's the table I'm missing the most right now. They just are the players that fit my style the best. Plus they provide really good snack

[MaxWilson]

I dmed for a party that went pretty big into undead minion army building. oath-breaker Paladin, necromancy wizard, dream druid, and a death cleric.
Not all armies march on their stomach.


Recycling. Use the Danse on your defeated zombos and skellyboys


I wish they were evil. If anything they were really into recycling and upcycling.


Good group all around. It's the table I'm missing the most right now. They just are the players that fit my style the best. Plus they provide really good snack

I'm a little afraid to ask the nature of the snacks...

[stoutstien]

I'm a little afraid to ask the nature of the snacks...

Hehe. One of them is a professional Baker. Brownies so good at this point they could be completely Soylent Green and I wouldn't complain.

[Segev]

Hehe. One of them is a professional Baker. Brownies so good at this point they could be completely Soylent Green and I wouldn't complain.

Makes one wonder what causes them to be unavailable such that you miss the group.... :smallamused:

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Dance Macabre is for when I wanna bewitch you in the moonlight.

But more seriously, or less, Dance Macabre is the reason you keep the skeletons of your fallen characters around to surprise the BBEG.

Everytime you kill a character, I just get stronger.

Btw, I want to see an entire party have this spell on each character

[SociopathFriend]

Another use, though not necessarily one that your party will like, is emergency reanimation of party members.

Of the spells available to get dead party members up and moving again- most of the ones that actually bring them back from the dead cannot be cast mid-combat.
And if you're a Wizard you don't get them anyways.

So if say- the Cleric, Fighter, and Paladin are all down and a small army of bad guys is charging the squishy Wizard and Rogue- Dance Macabre can get your guys back on their feet and fighting/running in one turn.

[Cikomyr2]

Dance Macabre is for when I wanna bewitch you in the moonlight.

But more seriously, or less, Dance Macabre is the reason you keep the skeletons of your fallen characters around to surprise the BBEG.

Everytime you kill a character, I just get stronger.

Btw, I want to see an entire party have this spell on each character

With a Paladin casting Mantle of Faith

And a druid casting Pass Without a Trace

Zombie elite commando

[Witty Username]

I dmed for a party that went pretty big into undead minion army building. oath-breaker Paladin, necromancy wizard, dream druid, and a death cleric.
Not all armies march on their stomach.

Karnath wants you, no matter how many times you serve the army, you can only join it once.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

With a Paladin casting Mantle of Faith

And a druid casting Pass Without a Trace

Zombie elite commando

Replace druid with Trickery Cleric.

Give a creature advantage on stealth AND pass without trace.

[Satori01]

Animate Dead can only be cast at night.
There is no such restriction on Danse Macabre.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Animate Dead can only be cast at night.
There is no such restriction on Danse Macabre.

What?

Animate Dead
3 necromancy
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 10 feet
Components: V S M (A drop of blood, a piece of flesh, and a pinch of bone dust)
Duration: Instantaneous
Classes: Cleric, Wizard

This spell creates an undead servant. Choose a pile of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid within range. Your spell imbues the target with a foul mimicry of life, raising it as an undead creature. The target becomes a skeleton if you chose bones or a zombie if you chose a corpse (the GM has the creature’s game statistics). On each of your turns, you can use a bonus action to mentally command any creature you made with this spell if the creature is within 60 feet of you (if you control multiple creatures, you can command any or all of them at the same time, issuing the same command to each one). You decide what action the creature will take and where it will move during its next turn, or you can issue a general command, such as to guard a particular chamber or corridor. If you issue no commands, the creature only defends itself against hostile creatures. Once given an order, the creature continues to follow it until its task is complete. The creature is under your control for 24 hours, after which it stops obeying any command you’ve given it. To maintain control of the creature for another 24 hours, you must cast this spell on the creature again before the current 24-hour period ends. This use of the spell reasserts your control over up to four creatures you have animated with this spell, rather than animating a new one.


At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, you animate or reassert control over two additional Undead creatures for each slot above 3rd. Each of the creatures must come from a different corpse or pile of bones.

[SociopathFriend]

He's thinking of Create Undead. Create Undead has the "at night" limitation.


You can cast this spell only at night. Choose up to three corpses of Medium or Small Humanoids within range. Each corpse becomes a ghoul under your control. (The DM has game Statistics for these creatures.)

As a Bonus Action on each of your turns, you can mentally Command any creature you animated with this spell if the creature is within 120 feet of you (if you control multiple creatures, you can Command any or all of them at the same time, issuing the same Command to each one). You decide what action the creature will take and where it will move during its next turn, or you can issue a general Command, such as to guard a particular chamber or corridor. If you issue no commands, the creature only defends itself against Hostile creatures. Once given an order, the creature continues to follow it until its task is complete.

The creature is under your control for 24 hours, after which it stops obeying any Command you have given it. To maintain control of the creature for another 24 hours, you must cast this spell on the creature before the current 24-hour period ends. This use of the spell reasserts your control over up to three creatures you have animated with this spell, rather than animating new ones.

[Satori01]

Yes. Sorry English is second language....Create Undead has the restriction.
Mea Culpa.

[Tanarii]

Possibly because it's easier to convince your DM: you're not *really* creating undead with the Danse, just moving the bones around for while clearly doesn't constituted frequently creating undead. I'm not evil. Nope, not me. It's practically Disney!

[JackPhoenix]

Another use, though not necessarily one that your party will like, is emergency reanimation of party members.

Of the spells available to get dead party members up and moving again- most of the ones that actually bring them back from the dead cannot be cast mid-combat.
And if you're a Wizard you don't get them anyways.

So if say- the Cleric, Fighter, and Paladin are all down and a small army of bad guys is charging the squishy Wizard and Rogue- Dance Macabre can get your guys back on their feet and fighting/running in one turn.

Assuming you don't want to ressurect them afterwards, or have access to True Resurrection. No other reviving spell works on undead (or ex-undead corpses).

[Cikomyr2]

Possibly because it's easier to convince your DM: you're not *really* creating undead with the Danse, just moving the bones around for while clearly doesn't constituted frequently creating undead. I'm not evil. Nope, not me. It's practically Disney!

Oh. We need to explore the Disney Escape Morality Claude further. What else is acceptable because "it's like Disney!!"?

[Throne12]

I just realized that you can't command all of your undead if you used both animate and create. Because they both say as a bonus action you can command undead made by this spell.

[SociopathFriend]

Assuming you don't want to ressurect them afterwards, or have access to True Resurrection. No other reviving spell works on undead (or ex-undead corpses).

I didn't realize dying as an Undead still leaves you as an Undead rather than "a dead creature".
Not sarcasm- genuinely didn't know it.
Guess Animating them as Objects is no barrier whatsoever but Undead puts them straight on a metaphorical "Do not resuscitate" order.



I just realized that you can't command all of your undead if you used both animate and create. Because they both say as a bonus action you can command undead made by this spell.

Granted with appropriate orders you can get around that pretty easily.
"You have the standing general order of attacking any enemy creature you see me command someone else to attack."
"You have the standing general order to attack any enemy that attacks me."

If you need unique orders every turn yeah- you'll suffer.

[MaxWilson]

Assuming you don't want to ressurect them afterwards, or have access to True Resurrection. No other reviving spell works on undead (or ex-undead corpses).

So Danse Macabre on your game has permanent effects after the 1 hour (concentration) duration is up?

That makes it a handy anti-Resurrection spell for permanently getting rid of Big Bads, I suppose.

[Tanarii]

Granted with appropriate orders you can get around that pretty easily.
"You have the standing general order of attacking any enemy creature you see me command someone else to attack."
"You have the standing general order to attack any enemy that attacks me."You forgot to order them to follow you.

Then there is the question of if that's a different order. Can they either be ordered to follow you or attack someone that attacks you? Or both as a single order?

[SociopathFriend]

You forgot to order them to follow you.

Then there is the question of if that's a different order. Can they either be ordered to follow you or attack someone that attacks you? Or both as a single order?

My first rule of Necromancy in-game is to figure out whether your DM is going to be a jerk about them, relatively neutral, or try to work with you.
Necromancers perhaps more than any other class require a great deal of DM-specific interactions such as, "Are the Undead proficient with the weapons and armor they had in life? Do they understand who are party members and who aren't? Will they be able to restore hit points with short rests?" etc.

Orders and how they're going to be interpreted fall into that area. If your DM is the type who will purposefully try to find any given hole in your commands or minion mechanics to mess you up- you don't want to be a Necromancer in that campaign.

I would argue, with some merit I think, that ordering melee Undead to attack a given enemy 20 feet away and them understanding they have to move up to the enemy to attack- as opposed to being basically rooted in place and flailing at the air because you didn't command them to move or worse/better they proceeding to hurl their swords and hammers at the enemy 20 feet away instead of walking up to them- indicates there's a certain implied leniency with how explicit your orders have to be.

They're stupid- not robots. They understand language and have an Intelligence superior to that of a Horse. They should be quite capable of the basic trick of following you and attacking enemies they perceive as hostile.

Now granted if the DM wants to be emphasizing the dangerous aspect of trying to reign in Undead he could rule that they'll attack different enemies as they decide they're hostile so only with the Bonus Action can you get them to form up on a given enemy and fight intelligently- and that would be the best of both worlds if you asked me. You still need to sacrifice to the Action Economy Gods but at the same time you don't have to micro-manage every single thing you want them to do as that drastically slows down the game.

[Tanarii]

My first rule of Necromancy in-game is to figure out whether your DM is going to be a jerk about them, relatively neutral, or try to work with you. Oh I'm definitely a jerk about any creature summons spells and commanding them. Animate Dead is one of the easiest by the written rule btw.

But regardless, having to ordering them to follow you is a far cry from expecting them to move into attack range and then attack. That's not an equivalent order. But while I may be a jerk DM about it, I've never had a player try to pull the order "follow me and attack anything that attacks me." The few animators I've had at the table just used their bonus actions to issue orders in combat, and had the undead just follow them out of combat. So I don't know if I'd rule against it. Probably, since it's a fairly obvious attempt to bypass action economy and the RAW isn't explicit one way or the other. But I'd have to think about it.

Also note that zombies are stupid. They explicitly will wade through hazardous terrain to get to the creature they are attacking.



Necromancers perhaps more than any other class require a great deal of DM-specific interactions such as, [...]Illusionist have it far worse. :smallamused:

[Cikomyr2]

Oh I'm definitely a jerk about any creature summons spells and commanding them. Animate Dead is one of the easiest by the written rule btw.

But regardless, having to ordering them to follow you is a far cry from expecting them to move into attack range and then attack. That's not an equivalent order. But while I may be a jerk DM about it, I've never had a player try to pull the order "follow me and attack anything that attacks me." The few animators I've had at the table just used their bonus actions to issue orders in combat, and had the undead just follow them out of combat. So I don't know if I'd rule against it. Probably, since it's a fairly obvious attempt to bypass action economy and the RAW isn't explicit one way or the other. But I'd have to think about it.

Also note that zombies are stupid. They explicitly will wade through hazardous terrain to get to the creature they are attacking.

Illusionist have it far worse. :smallamused:

I wonder if you could have certain class feature where you enhance the coordination of your undead through willpower. Make them a coordinated skeletal phalanx.

[JackPhoenix]

I didn't realize dying as an Undead still leaves you as an Undead rather than "a dead creature".
Not sarcasm- genuinely didn't know it.
Guess Animating them as Objects is no barrier whatsoever but Undead puts them straight on a metaphorical "Do not resuscitate" order.

Dead undead, specifically. It changes your creature type, and only True Resurrection can reverse that. Funnily enough, if someone dies, gets turned into a zombie, the zombie then killed, Revivify will bring back the zombie, not the original creature, even if it all happen in the 1-minute interval of the first death.

You can't recycle your zombies by Animate Dead for the same reason: it requires corpse of a humanoid, not corpse of an undead.


So Danse Macabre on your game has permanent effects after the 1 hour (concentration) duration is up?

That makes it a handy anti-Resurrection spell for permanently getting rid of Big Bads, I suppose.

You can do it with Animate Dead too. Or, depending on what spell you're worried about, cutting off the head. Or generous application of fire. In the games I ran, that's usually enough... even Resurrection is extremely rare, and TR is pretty much non-existent.

[SociopathFriend]

Oh I'm definitely a jerk about any creature summons spells and commanding them. Animate Dead is one of the easiest by the written rule btw.

Oh I do agree mind you. It's not all that hard to keep ordering them with your Bonus Action. You're a Wizard- you don't get much use out of those to begin with.
Given the thread is about Danse Macabre- you don't even get to play with Concentration spells while that's up either.




But regardless, having to ordering them to follow you is a far cry from expecting them to move into attack range and then attack. That's not an equivalent order. But while I may be a jerk DM about it, I've never had a player try to pull the order "follow me and attack anything that attacks me." The few animators I've had at the table just used their bonus actions to issue orders in combat, and had the undead just follow them out of combat. So I don't know if I'd rule against it. Probably, since it's a fairly obvious attempt to bypass action economy and the RAW isn't explicit one way or the other. But I'd have to think about it.

Think of it like this- what else is your Wizard going to do with the Bonus Action anyways? There's a grand total of 6 spells that use a Bonus Action for casting and of the ones with a Bonus Action for maintaining/using- Animate Dead is pretty king especially for Necromancers. One Bonus Action is (probably) not breaking or making your combat scenarios.

Remember that the same phrasing exists for Create Undead. Ghouls have 7 Intelligence. Ghasts have 11 Intelligence. Can you give them commands like that? They can clearly understand them and have the intelligence enough to know what you mean.




Also note that zombies are stupid. They explicitly will wade through hazardous terrain to get to the creature they are attacking.

Illusionist have it far worse. :smallamused:

True- but the Zombies will move. That would be an example of when the general command backfires. With a Bonus Action you can specifically order them around a pit. If you rely on the general hostile action they might do something stupid like walking right into it.

I did think about adding Illusionist in there but decided not to for the sake of brevity.

[MaxWilson]

Think of it like this- what else is your Wizard going to do with the Bonus Action anyways? There's a grand total of 6 spells that use a Bonus Action for casting and of the ones with a Bonus Action for maintaining/using- Animate Dead is pretty king especially for Necromancers. One Bonus Action is (probably) not breaking or making your combat scenarios.

In the context of this thread, the bonus action conflict is between Animate Dead and Danse Macabre. You might want to give orders to both sets up skeletons, but you only have one bonus action so it takes two turns. Hence the discussion on and desire for pre-programmed general orders like "follow that guy and kill whatever he tries to kill".

[Segev]

Does it actually specify that you can ONLY order the ones animated by one or the other as a bonus action? If you use "a bonus action" to order both sets, you're still using a bonus action to order "them" as a group.

[MaxWilson]

Does it actually specify that you can ONLY order the ones animated by one or the other as a bonus action? If you use "a bonus action" to order both sets, you're still using a bonus action to order "them" as a group.

No, it doesn't specify an "only" clause. I feel like that's getting into contentious territory though--personally I wouldn't feel good relying on "the spell doesn't explicitly say you can't!"

[SociopathFriend]

Does it actually specify that you can ONLY order the ones animated by one or the other as a bonus action? If you use "a bonus action" to order both sets, you're still using a bonus action to order "them" as a group.

Animate Dead does state the bonus action commands Undead made with "this spell" as does Create Undead and Danse Macabre. As such RAW I do not believe you can command all of them with one Bonus Action.

That said- once you have Create Undead there is not much reason for Animate Dead. Your Created Undead would be superior in most any fashion. So the spells likely weren't designed to overlap in the first place since one is basically an upgrade.

The only issue would be if you have Danse Macabre and one of the other two spells going at the same time.

On each of your turns, you can use a Bonus Action to mentally Command any creature you made with this spell if the creature is within 60 feet of you

You can use a bonus action to mentally command the creatures you make with this spell, issuing the same command to all of them.

As a Bonus Action on each of your turns, you can mentally Command any creature you animated with this spell if the creature is within 120 feet of you
Animate, Danse, Create.

[MaxWilson]

That said- once you have Create Undead there is not much reason for Animate Dead. Your Created Undead would be superior in most any fashion. So the spells likely weren't designed to overlap in the first place since one is basically an upgrade.

This is the first time I've ever seen someone suggest that e.g. four ghouls are better than twelve skeleton archers. Can you explain further?

[SociopathFriend]

This is the first time I've ever seen someone suggest that e.g. four ghouls are better than twelve skeleton archers. Can you explain further?

It was mostly on a 1-1 stat comparison.
Ghouls are as tanky as Zombies but in exchange for that Con save to (un)live you get better stats across the board and that paralyzing touch.
Statwise Ghouls are superior to Skeletons in every way barring 1 point of AC.
Even the control range is better- 120 vs 60. And the Ghouls can actually talk too and is a lot smarter- admittedly not a high bar.

I do not consider weapons when comparing Undead as weapons are not assured to be around (I haven't been able to equip my Undead in half a year) nor is it assured you'll fight at such ranges for that to be a great benefit.
I also don't consider maximum potential for bodies. Sure there are scenarios where X number of Undead might be optimal- I rate them as individuals because you're guaranteed at least one body if you cast those spells. Anything else is plausible yes but far from certain.

[Segev]

Huh. Interesting. Danse macabre has no range limit on control, unlike the other two. Unless the spell's range is a limit on this, and the other two needed the range limit printed because they are more permanent spells?

[Joe the Rat]

Animate Dead does state the bonus action commands Undead made with "this spell" as does Create Undead and Danse Macabre. As such RAW I do not believe you can command all of them with one Bonus Action.

That said- once you have Create Undead there is not much reason for Animate Dead. Your Created Undead would be superior in most any fashion. So the spells likely weren't designed to overlap in the first place since one is basically an upgrade.

The only issue would be if you have Danse Macabre and one of the other two spells going at the same time.This is probably a good case example for a "bonus action as an action" ruling - direct two contingents at the cost of not doing anything else besides shuffling your feet (movement).

[Ekzanimus]

Danse Macabre is freakishly strong on a Necromancer Wizard that's using skeletons. It can even out-damage Animate Objects.

The trick is that you prepare extra broken scimitars and order them to wield and then attack with two broken scimitars. You may have to make arrangements to carry the corpses into battle with you or (possibly with Familiar, Unseen Servant, or Tiny Servant shenanigans) to put the scimitars on the skeleton piles right before you cast Danse Macabre.

Two shots of 1d6+6-10 damage, Granted, there are probably other weapons they could use, but we know for sure that they have proficiency with broken scimitars. If your DM is being a pill about getting broken scimitars, just create some fake skeletons through Animate Dead, take their scimitars, then destroy them. Then distribute them to your actual skeletons.
I am a bit off-topic but can you tell me where is knowledge about broken scimitars from? I checked my PHB and Monster Manual and skeletons have shortswords there.

[Segev]

I am a bit off-topic but can you tell me where is knowledge about broken scimitars from? I checked my PHB and Monster Manual and skeletons have shortswords there.

I believe the skeletons in Sunless Citadel have broken scimitars.

[Ekzanimus]

I believe the skeletons in Sunless Citadel have broken scimitars.
Skeletons in Sunless Citadel that I can find are armed with shovels...

UPD: No, there is scimitar-wielding skeleton all right, but A) this skeleton is giant and B) his scimitar is not broken.

[Segev]

Skeletons in Sunless Citadel that I can find are armed with shovels...

UPD: No, there is scimitar-wielding skeleton all right, but A) this skeleton is giant and B) his scimitar is not broken.

...where's there a giant skeleton in Sunless Citadel? :smallconfused:

[Ekzanimus]

...where's there a giant skeleton in Sunless Citadel? :smallconfused:
In the Appendix B: Creatures for the "Tales from the Yawning Portal", containing Sunless Citadel.

[Segev]

In the Appendix B: Creatures for the "Tales from the Yawning Portal", containing Sunless Citadel.

That's not in the Sunless Citadel, though. That's in one of the other dungeons, I'm pretty sure.

Anyway, this is off-topic. I could be wrong about where these scimitars come from.

[JackPhoenix]

Giant skeleton with scimitar (but not broken) is from TftYP, but it's from Tomb of Horror parts. Standard skeletons in PHB and MM have shortsword and shortbow.