good shaper psion level 3-4 strategy?

[newguydude1]

at level 1 and 2 my psion has a geodite who kicks ass. at level 3 though he seems to die real quick.
at level 5 i have project quori spirit, a duration:concentration summon power that has no cap on duration. and quoris are really strong at this level. dr 5 with elemental resistances at 10 with +10 skills like spot and intimidate.
at level 6 i have power point regeneration and can indefinitely keep an astral construct up 24/7.

but at level 3 and 4, my geodite dies too quickly, my astral construct sucks in combat, my astral construct duration is too short, and i run out of pp too quickly. so whats a good level 3-4 shaper psion strategy that doesnt suck?

[newguydude1]

Abandon hope for your geodite. They and their elemental kin are useless. Get yourself a psicrystal, which is vastly better, since it gets feats and abilities as you level. There's nothing you can do for it without either a ton of WBL or some houserules to make it not suck.

i retrain it out once i need the feat slot. having him at level 1 and ditching him once i got permanent summons is an optimal thing.


Your best bet is to use psionic minor creation to make low Craft DC plant-based poisons, especially if you're a warforged. Create them in thin amber balls (since those, too, are a plant product). Throw the balls at enemies as a ranged touch attack. Hope they fail their saves. Or you could create amber dye arrows (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrows-common/ammunition-bow-arrow-dye/) filled with poison that you can fire.

i will look this up. useless against undead but at least its good against non undead. if it works. i will have to look this up.


You could also take the Durable Construct feat in Hyperconscious (which is 3rd party, but it's written by Bruce Cordell, who also wrote the XPH) and have your astral constructs last 10 minutes, even at this level. Give them ranged and reach weapons. Sure, they have a -4 to attack, but the versatility granted would be worth it for, say, trip attacks, which are touch attacks.

no 3rd party. dm says you are bat**** out of this world crazy powerful with 1st party only so why in the world would he do anything to make you more powerful.


Feel free to buy a bunch of level 1 power stones for 25 gp each, or craft them for 12.5. They're pretty cheap, so something like matter agitation would allow you to deal damage for a whole combat for just one. Or you could manifest it for 1 pp instead (maybe with Empower Power to increase damage).

i have matter agitation


If you have Linked Power and synchronicity (both from C.Psi) you could Link astral construct off of synchronicity for constructs, while still having your standard action to manifest, move, fire arrows, etc.

i already do this and also with minor creation to create a flood of oil to kill swarms.


You could also use psionic grease, entangling ectoplasm, and other lower level powers to hinder foes, while other party members (or a trained animal you got) deal with them.

animals suck. level 1-2 i dont need them. level 3-4 they suck. level 5 i dont need them.


What're your race, powers known, skill allotments, wealth distribution, and feats?

warforged
1 psicrystal affinity
1 linked power
1 metapower:synchronicity & linked power
1 elemental envoy, retrained to azure talent or psycarnum infusion.
3 psicrystal containment
5 midnight augmentation
6 psionic meditation

1
matter agitation
psionic minor creation
synchronicity
astral Construct
vigor

2
psionic repair damage
feat leech
specified energy adaptation
share pain
bestow power

3
project quori spirit
solicit psicrystal
dispel psionics

i dont really use money. dm never does wbl, other players are money grubby, things i want to buy might not be fore sale, so i just dont bother with it. mundane stuff might be ok.

edit: where is this "amber ball" in the books?
if you're just talking about a random splash weapon filled with black lotus extract, i think we have a winner. have a tempestan throw it instead of me for +5 range touch. thanks.

[magicalmagicman]

In a solo adventure, I had the geodite create tunnels in dungeons with collapsible corridors. Then I just matter agitation, move into the corridor, and had the geodite collapse the entrance. And then just wait until the creature dies from the matter agitation.

Only did this once though because it's not my preferred way of fighting. The black lotus poison splash weapon is the most optimal strategy I can think of but like you pointed out, it's useless against one of the most common enemy types in the game. And matter agitation is too slow for my liking against the hp meat sac that is zombies.

[newguydude1]

thread not over. i need level 3-4 strategy against undead, elemental, and constructs. geodite and matter agitation too weak. astral construct too weak. elemental steward power is too weak.

[newguydude1]

Get some ML boosters and cost reducers for your level 1 powers. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=15897.0) Astral constructs are great against all three of those creature types, since they've got tons of immunities against undead, are just as strong as other constructs (except they're acting on your orders, so they have much better tactical acumen), and elementals don't really have much they can do to your constructs. And you can tailor your constructs to the tasks at hand. Make sure to give 'em the +1 sizing guisarme I mentioned above and add a lesser truedeath weapon crystal for incorporeal stuff.

With a bit of effort, you can be manifesting really high level constructs. Maybe get Boost Construct and work your way into constructor (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b). One of the best manifesting PrCs in the game.

i already have overchannel and linked power + metapower. cant get midnight augmentation until level 5 because i need psicrystal containment to use it with linked power + metapower. earth power is useless because i have to expend focus for midnight and metapower.

you people are all wrong about psionic magic transparency. it explicitly states what it does. spell resistance on powers, power resistance on spells, dispel magic on powers, dispel psionic on magic, and nothing else. caster level increase does not work on powers because caster level is never mentioned in the definition of magic psionic transparency.

" Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas. "

these are the only four things that are affected by psionic magic transparency. so spellgifted and orange ioun stone doesnt do anything.

i have boost construct on my psicrystal and i feat leech it on me.

i manifest a 3rd level astral construct at level 3 that lasts 4 rounds. and i have enough pp to manifest it 5 times with overchannel. but i remember fighting bugbear zombie. it survived 2 astral constructs and it took a 3rd with geodite to kill it. that is not good imo. i need better strategy.

[Elkad]

What is the rest of the party doing? Or are you solo?

Are you using the one construct at a time rule?



The zombie is a special problem.
DR to slams and a pile of hitpoints is probably about the worst case for your constructs. So don't use them.
Kite it so it can't reach you (or just climb a wall out of it's reach) and cook it with Matter Agitation . It's a zombie, it's not even smart enough to run away and only moves 30', even if it charges, so kiting should be simple.

[newguydude1]

What is the rest of the party doing? Or are you solo?

we have two fighters. one pure one multiclass with cleric.


Are you using the one construct at a time rule?

yes. dm says i use comp psi so i have to use comp psi's astral construct


The zombie is a special problem.
DR to slams and a pile of hitpoints is probably about the worst case for your constructs. So don't use them.
Kite it so it can't reach you (or just climb a wall out of it's reach) and cook it with Matter Agitation . It's a zombie, it's not even smart enough to run away and only moves 30', even if it charges, so kiting should be simple.

so theres nothing other than matter agitation?

[newguydude1]

So the DM soft-banned astral constructs. Do you know why he hates you so much?

he didn't ban me from using schism and practiced manifester to create 2 astral constructs at once.
he didn't ban me from using fission and schism to create 4 astral constructs at once
he didn't ban me from using soul crystal to create potentially infinite astral constructs though he asked me not to do this.

i think what he did is fair. comp psi enables power point regeneration. well worth the trade.

[newguydude1]

There are tons of ways to do power point regeneration. Like, ridiculous numbers of them.

name them please. and if they require to use a pre-magic item compendium version of torc whose cost makes it impossible to obtain before level 6 then its terrible.

[newguydude1]

Psicrystal + bestow power + affinity field shared with psicrystal. Goes from 0 to full instantly by bouncing bestow power back and forth an infinite number of times.

im not gonna wait until level 17 to get power point recharge when i am having trouble without it at level 3 and 4. id gladly trade the ability to have multiple astral constructs until higher levels to get power point regeneration 11 levels earlier and manifest astral construct 1 level higher on top of reducing all cast times of powers to 1 round. comp psi only delayed multiple constructs. at 13 i can manifest an infinite number of them. its worth the trade.


The MoI Recharge Trick (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook).

this is the one im using right now and it has linked power and metapower. comp psi feats. your supposed to list power point regeneration that doesnt use comp psi because your saying its not worth it to use that book.


Psionic plane shift to a fast time demiplane and rest before plane shifting back.

another level 17 power.


Give your psicrystal a [Host] feat. Hit it repeatedly with a +1 sap with the powerleech ability (Lost Empires of Faerun).

host feats are comp psi.

i am interested in alternate viable power point regeneration techniques so please name one that doesnt require you to be super high levels, super rich, or use comp psi.

[newguydude1]

Feel free to use C.Psi. Just don't accept the stupid nerfs that should never have been put in that book in the first place. Wizards don't need to worry about a nerfed summon monster, so why does a psion have to accept C.Psi smacking him in the face with a baseball bat?

its not up to me to whether to accept the nerfs or not. in fact its not even up to the dm. its up to the authors of 3.5. if you keep all the things in a book that makes you stronger while house ruling away things that make you weaker, then your cheating. your doing things the author clearly and explicitly said you cant do. the author gets to decide what to buff and what to nerf. hes the designer. if you show me an astral construct psion build that deliberately ignores rule text then im not gonna read it. i dont cheat. what your doing is the samething as saying restoration should cure ability burn and then abusing body fuel.

you keep mentioning summon monster but summon monster is absolute crap. i tried it and i hated it. the spell doesnt kill anything. its supposed to do nonkilling stuff to help the fighter kill stuff. also only the highest level summons are useful. so no matter what you do you are stuck with the 15min adventuring model. and there is nothing you can do to get higher level summons earlier and get more casts per day because pearls of power are hella expensive, become worthless the moment you level up because it doesnt work with higher level spells, and you can't use lower level spell slots to caster more higher level spells like you can with psionics.

and worst of all summon monster is useless against flying creatures.

but astral construct, not only is a naked equal level astral construct much stronger than summon monster, but you can use cost reducers and ml boosters to get astral constructs 2 or 3 levels higher and spend all of your power points to get twice as many casts of it than summon monster. in addition extra attack and muscle makes you do 3 times more damage than your entire party . i'm dealing 60 damage a round while my partymates are dealing 20 damage a round. a summon monster wizard cannot even hope to compare to 1 astral construct, let alone multiple. and theres also the improved grab build of astral constructs making them make any boss without a teleport worthless. summon monster cant do that. and i can put pounce and flying on my construct and kick any flying monsters ass including a dragon. summon monster cant do that.

so i disagree. even with the astral construct nerf i am stronger than my entire party and a summon monster wizard is an ant compared to me so the nerf is justified and not stupid. i can overcome the nerf at level 9 with schism, and fully at level 13 with soul crystal so its not a big deal. and deliberately ignoring clear and explicit rule text in a book that is already giving you a ton of powerful options is cheating.

im not gonna bully my dm into letting me cheat when im already the strongest guy in the party. and i was never the strongest guy in the party when i used summon monster. so comparing summon monster with astral construct is wrong.

[Elkad]

The zombie is a special problem.
DR to slams and a pile of hitpoints is probably about the worst case for your constructs. So don't use them.
Kite it so it can't reach you (or just climb a wall out of it's reach) and cook it with Matter Agitation . It's a zombie, it's not even smart enough to run away and only moves 30', even if it charges, so kiting should be simple.


so theres nothing other than matter agitation?

For zombies? Just avoid blunt, pierce, and cold damage. Anything else would be manageable.

Matter agitation is very power efficient, and zombies are dumb. It's a great option.
If there is a way to get slash damage on your constructs, I don't know it.

Or you could just give your construct Fire Resist 5 and throw a lot of oil. (or throw much more expensive Holy Water)

Just spend the power and do it like you did. Yes, it's expensive. Some fights should be hard for some characters.

Or you could accept that you are playing a T1.5 character and let the fighters have some fun for once. Throw out L1 constructs to give them flanking buddies and then go loot the treasure chest while they fight or something.

Question. Was the party in danger of death? If you had just stood in the back with matter agitation on a zombie while the fighter tanked it, would that have won the fight?

[newguydude1]

If you had just stood in the back with matter agitation on a zombie while the fighter tanked it, would that have won the fight?

i dont play rogue because sneak attack doesnt work on everything. i dont play rangers because they are bad against non favored enemy. i dont like having achilles heels. the fight wasnt a single zombie. it was 3 troglodyte and a bugbear zombie. i dont want to be useless if for some reason the next 10 encounters are zombies. it takes like 10 rounds to kill a zombie with matter agitation.

it is acceptable like you said. i can get my geodite to carry me while i matter agitation. i was just wondering if there is something better. tier 1.5 class has enough options to kickass in all scenarios i think.

[Elkad]

Unclear if the trogs were zombies as well.

I'm assuming they are, or you would have just put the construct on the trogs while the fighters killed the zombie.

Anyway you got it at the end of your post. Acceptable. You had a fight where you weren't the star. Not a big deal. And you did have something to do. Two somethings. Either contribute minor damage via agitation for a very minor power point cost, or spend points liberally for not much better damage (after DR) by calling your best constructs repeatedly.

If the DM puts nothing but bludgeon-resistant creatures in the next 10 encounters, then yes, you have a problem (or the DM does).

Could always grab a mid-level Dorje of Energy Ray:Fire or something as well. If partially charged is an option, dropping 600gp on 10 charges of 4d6+4 isn't a terrible idea.

[newguydude1]

ok ill stick with matter agitation i guess. if im gonna go blasty then nothing is better than elemental steward. with synchronicity metapower each cast is 2pp and gets me an emberling for 3 rounds that shoots 2/day fire rays doing 2d6+2 damage. but seeing how i only have 15 pp, blowing 14pp to do 126 damage minus whatever the chance to miss that touch ray is (its actualyl a lot, she missed half the time) wasnt good so i guess ill stick with matter agitation. oh well.

ill look up some blasty powers for dorjes i guess.

[ZamielVanWeber]

If you use the (bizarre/spiteful) C. Psi rules for type damage use Energy Ray. Otherwise Crystal Shard is great for being reliable and hard to resist. Nothing spectacular but effective. At higher levels I really like energy missile, although it is of dubious value against a single target.

[Segev]

I suggest we stop trying to convince the OP that he’s playing wrong for using the rules he and his DM agree on, and I read focus on helping him with the questions he asked.

Doesn’t complete psionics have rules for menu items to give astral constructs slashing or energy damage attacks?

It also has a way to make astral constructs explode on death. I think you can get effective blasting from that.

Can minor creation make holy water? What about ravages? Alchemist’s Fire?

It certainly can make oil. Give your astral construct a torch and conjure oil on you zombie foes if you can’t do anything else.

Consider ectoplasmic cocoon as a way to contribute when you can’t be the damage dealer. Wrapping up the biggest foe on the field on round one, the next biggest on round two, etc., until the fighters are able to focus down one at a time, is a tremendous help. And then you can matter agitate and let your construct hit with minor disadvantage to his damage in the meantime.

Heck, if you have the linked power stuff going on, you can start matter agitation on a target that is linked to ectoplasmic cocoon. The cocoon prevents you from targeting the guy inside, but if you’ve already got matter agitation going on him when your cocoon triggers the next round, you can keep it up.

Now you’re dealing slow damage to a helpless foe while the fighters deal with other threats. It’s slow, but just keeping the foe out of combat is a huge contribution. The damage is just icing.

[newguydude1]

I suggest we stop trying to convince the OP that he’s playing wrong for using the rules he and his DM agree on, and I read focus on helping him with the questions he asked.

agreed. im not gonna act like a tobacco lawyer and scrape up every little thing to throw a tantrum and munchkin. complete psionic is an update and expansion. and there is not a chance in hell anyone i know or play with is gonna even consider "not an errata so it cant change it" as real argument instead of what it actually is. a munchkin trying to cheat because not even optimizing to the absolute limit is enough for them.

i understand not using comp psi to not use its nerf. thats fair. its like not using a dlc in a video game. but to use comp psi material heavily and tobacco lawyer away the nerfs... if thats not a munchkin cheater i dont know what is.


Doesn’t complete psionics have rules for menu items to give astral constructs slashing or energy damage attacks?

i couldnt find it. i even looked at those weird astral construct feats that prevent you from customizing in exchange for a premade construct. all of them had slam attacks despite being scorpions and such. if you could give a page number id be really happy.


It also has a way to make astral constructs explode on death. I think you can get effective blasting from that.

iffy. needs 2 feats. ectopic form any and ectopic form anathemic carapace. ill look into it.


Can minor creation make holy water? What about ravages? Alchemist’s Fire?

i need a plant that has holy water in it to have access to it with minor creation. same with ravages and alchemists fire. poison only works because black lotus is a plant.


It certainly can make oil. Give your astral construct a torch and conjure oil on you zombie foes if you can’t do anything else.

matter agitation does a better job at dealing fire damage than oil, which does 2d3 damage over 2 turns.


Consider ectoplasmic cocoon as a way to contribute when you can’t be the damage dealer. Wrapping up the biggest foe on the field on round one, the next biggest on round two, etc., until the fighters are able to focus down one at a time, is a tremendous help. And then you can matter agitate and let your construct hit with minor disadvantage to his damage in the meantime.

Heck, if you have the linked power stuff going on, you can start matter agitation on a target that is linked to ectoplasmic cocoon. The cocoon prevents you from targeting the guy inside, but if you’ve already got matter agitation going on him when your cocoon triggers the next round, you can keep it up.

Now you’re dealing slow damage to a helpless foe while the fighters deal with other threats. It’s slow, but just keeping the foe out of combat is a huge contribution. The damage is just icing.

im looking for strategy for levels 3 and 4. ectoplasmic cocoon is level 3 power meaning level 5. i have project quori spirit at that level which deals slashing damage so im good there.

[Quertus]

.. even with the astral construct nerf i am stronger than my entire party

Then why are you trying to become stronger?

[Segev]

What's the maximum level of Astral Construct you can make? Alternatively, what's the highest Menu you can access?

There's an energy attack on Menu B. A d4 of energy damage will ignore DR.

There's Power Attack and Improved Natural Attack on Menu A. These won't ignore DR, but zombie DR against bludgeoning isn't THAT high, so a bit of extra damage will help combat it.

There's also Trip Attack on Menu A. Zombies can't get up from prone and do much else on their turns.

[Piggy Knowles]

Dang, lots of people being really judgey about someone else's game. If the OP is enjoying their group, there's no reason to yell at them to change how it's being played. If someone outlines specific restrictions for their game, it's not particularly productive to try to argue them out of said restrictions instead of offering advice that works within those confines.

It was already mentioned but not really followed up on, but psionic grease is particularly deadly against a lot of the creatures that you specifically have trouble with. Zombies in particular have no skills and terrible Reflex saves, and are not typically intelligent enough to avoid tromping right through a greased area. This can make them extremely easy to lock down, especially since their action restrictions mean they can't charge (and hence can't both move and attack) and can't do anything else that turn if they spend an action to get back up. Entangling ectoplasm is similarly annoying, since it also prevents charges and reduces their already terrible movement, but it's single target and doesn't actively make them fall prone, and is honestly not much better than simply using nets (see below).

If you REALLY want slashing damage, the old WotC mind's eye articles did include the Augment Construction and Advanced Construction feats. The former gives some bonus HP to your astral constructs, while the latter opens up several new menu options, one of which is a menu A option that gives your construct claws that deal slashing damage. I'm not sure I'd spend those two feats, but if you're in a game with retraining it's not bad. I think they might technically be from the 3.0 era of psionics, but nothing in the feats conflicts with the 3.5 updates.

And speaking of your astral constructs, have you considered making a bunch of nets for them to use? Nets are particularly nice because they only require a touch attack to hit, so the fact that a construct lacks weapon proficiencies likely won't be an issue. I find that nets coated in terinav root, a plant-based contact poison from the DMG with a high DC that deals Dex damage, is a particularly nasty low-level attacking option for shapers in general. The poison aspect won't help you against undead, but entangle is a really nasty debuff for zombies that not only nukes their defenses but also lets you pretty much avoid them perpetually due to their action restrictions. Dragon Compendium even has the razor net, which adds on some slashing damage.

Unfortunately, though, unless you're a blaster (which it doesn't sound like you want to be, given that you appear to be interested in resource management and blasting is absolutely terrible at resource management at these levels), you're probably not going to get many better options against these types of foes at levels 3-4. They tend to be big and chunky and take a long time to kill with low-damage effects. But they ARE at least fairly easy to lock down while either the rest of your party takes them out or you slowly whittle them away with damage-over-time effects and astral constructs.

[newguydude1]

What's the maximum level of Astral Construct you can make? Alternatively, what's the highest Menu you can access?

at level 3 i have access to 3rd level constructs so 1 level a ability. i dont have boost construct because i give it to my psicrystal and feat leech it off. overchannel is more important than boost construct so i get boost construct at level 6. so 1 level a ability.

3 + 1 metapower + 1 overchannel = 5. 3rd level construct.


There's Power Attack and Improved Natural Attack on Menu A. These won't ignore DR, but zombie DR against bludgeoning isn't THAT high, so a bit of extra damage will help combat it.

There's also Trip Attack on Menu A. Zombies can't get up from prone and do much else on their turns.

hey this is a good idea! power attack + trip = +4 damage! and like you said zombies trying to get up is gonna waste their turn.

i think i can pull this off with a little bit more retraining. get boost construct at 3 and retrain it out for psicrystal containment at level 5. cant do it at 6 because im retraining elemental envoy out for azure talent at 6.

thanks ill give this a try.


And speaking of your astral constructs, have you considered making a bunch of nets for them to use? Nets are particularly nice because they only require a touch attack to hit, so the fact that a construct lacks weapon proficiencies likely won't be an issue. I find that nets coated in terinav root, a plant-based contact poison from the DMG with a high DC that deals Dex damage, is a particularly nasty low-level attacking option for shapers in general. The poison aspect won't help you against undead, but entangle is a really nasty debuff for zombies that not only nukes their defenses but also lets you pretty much avoid them perpetually due to their action restrictions. Dragon Compendium even has the razor net, which adds on some slashing damage.

net is an exotic weapon isn't it? so needs proficiency or a -4. and you need someone proficient with it to fold it for throwing. im a look at rule compendium if it clarifies this a bit but from what i read you cant use it without a -8, -4 for nonproficiency and -4 for not being able to fold it.


Unfortunately, though, unless you're a blaster (which it doesn't sound like you want to be, given that you appear to be interested in resource management and blasting is absolutely terrible at resource management at these levels), you're probably not going to get many better options against these types of foes at levels 3-4. They tend to be big and chunky and take a long time to kill with low-damage effects. But they ARE at least fairly easy to lock down while either the rest of your party takes them out or you slowly whittle them away with damage-over-time effects and astral constructs.

so putting together everything in this thread
matter agitation with my elemental envoy carrying me away
elemental steward at 2pp per cast for emberling for 4d6+4 energy ray damage at +4 range touch
astral construct tripping and power attacking. usable even on nonzombies.
psionic grease

it seems the elemental steward power for emberlings is the best option i guess. its natural attack also sets zombies on fire for 1d4 rounds for 1d4 damage each round. oh and anyone attacking it with unarmed or natural weapons also take fire damage and catch fire.

i hate to give up specified energy adaptation so im immune to cold and hot weather but i guess it cant be helped. after looking things threw spamming emberlings is the best other than matter agitation and running.

[Piggy Knowles]

net is an exotic weapon isn't it? so needs proficiency or a -4. and you need someone proficient with it to fold it for throwing. im a look at rule compendium if it clarifies this a bit but from what i read you cant use it without a -8, -4 for nonproficiency and -4 for not being able to fold it.

It is, but you're making touch attacks, which against many foes means you can eat a -4 penalty to the attack roll and still reliably hit. Regarding folding, nonproficient users can fold nets; it just takes twice as long to do so (4 rounds versus 2 rounds). You can fold several nets before combat starts, so that they are ready to go during combat. With a few nets on hand, you should never have to worry about the additional -4 penalty for throwing an unfolded net.



A net must be folded to be thrown effectively. The first time you
throw your net in a fight, you make a normal ranged touch attack
roll. After the net is unfolded, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls
with it. It takes 2 rounds for a proficient user to fold a net and twice
that long for a nonproficient one to do so.

[newguydude1]

It is, but you're making touch attacks, which against many foes means you can eat a -4 penalty to the attack roll and still reliably hit. Regarding folding, nonproficient users can fold nets; it just takes twice as long to do so (4 rounds versus 2 rounds). You can fold several nets before combat starts, so that they are ready to go during combat. With a few nets on hand, you should never have to worry about the additional -4 penalty for throwing an unfolded net.

i am definitely adding poisoned nets to my list of tricks with minor creation.

i had a bad experience with elemental steward. they die too quickly, most enemies use weapons, they miss their ray attack, and it takes a reflex 11 to not catch fire which is too easy and it only takes a move action to put out the fire.

but it seems like the power was built for zombies using natural weapons because they have terrible reflex save and they dont have the actions to put out the fire.

anyways thanks everyone. i think thread is over. black lotus extract splash weapon against living. emberlings against zombies. astral construct against elementals and constructs. and matter agitation if all else fails. poisoned nets, while theyre on my list, seems a lot harder to land than splash poison weapons because those you can miss and it wont matter where as if you miss with net its gone.