Yet another Unseen Servant thread

[Segev]

I've been contemplating this spell for at least one potential character (who is not the most physically able in his own right), especially versus mage hand. The ten minute ritual casting time is irksome for having it "on hand" (no pun with mage hand intended) when needed, but by the same token, nothing says you can't be conducting the ritual while otherwise idling, walking, chatting with your friends, etc.; it merely requires you action each round and concentration.

That said, the other big problem with the spell to me has always been a combination of the servant's slow (15 ft. per round) movement coupled to the clause about it winking out if it leaves the range from you. This would seem to slow you to a crawl if you want to move about anywhere at all. So it's really only good if you're settled in for a while and want to make it wait on you while you sit and focus on something else, right?

Well... maybe not.


Once on each of your turns as a bonus action, you can mentally command the servant to move up to 15 feet and interact with an object. The servant can perform simple tasks that a human servant could do, such as fetching things, cleaning, mending, folding clothes, lighting fires, serving food, and pouring wine. Once you give the command, the servant performs the task to the best of its ability until it completes the task, then waits for your next command.

If you command the servant to perform a task that would move it more than 60 feet away from you, the spell ends.

It can move 15 feet from wherever it happens to be and interact with an object. However, it doesn't actually say it can only move fifteen feet per round. Just that it can only move fifteen feet from the last point it was working to interact with something. This actually creates a bit of a rules hole if you want it to go from where it was grooming your poodle to your kitchen sink 20 feet away and wash your dishes, but don't have anything you want it to do in between. There's no object to interact with in the intervening region.

Now, the obvious answer is, "Geeze, Seg, it obviously finishes moving to the sink the next round," but I still have to ask, "But does that count as an ongoing task it will keep doing, or do I need to mentally command it again to finish the move?" Certainly, it keeps washing dishes until the task is done, once I assign it, even though that might require stepping back and forth and interacting with multiple objects.

On the other hand, it also never says that it winks out if you move more than 60 feet from it. Only if you command it to perform a task that would move it more than 60 feet from you. For it to forcibly end, you must order it to do something that would make IT move outside of 60 feet from YOU.

So, in theory, I could order it to wash my dishes and then walk away, because I haven't a) ordered it to move outside of 60 feet from me, and b) it's not MOVED out of 60 feet from me. I moved outside of 60 feet from it.

Now, if I ordered it to get my laundry out of the dryer without moving back to within 60 feet of at least the dryer, it would wink out. Potentially, it winks out if I give it any commands that require it to move at all from its spot while I'm more than 60 feet away, as that would make it "move more than 60 feet away from [me]." So one must be very careful with the orders given one's unseen servant when one wishes to leave it out of range.

The other sticking point, of course, remains the fact that if I don't walk back to it and tell it to come, I still effectively have lost use of it, so for practical sake, if I want the thing to stay with me and be useful, I have to slow to 15 feet per round. (Though if it only counts against me if I order it to perform a task outside of 60 feet from me, at least it can catch up to me and do that...at its slow pace.)

Or...is that so?

You can order it to move up to 15 feet and interact with an object. If I order it to do something that makes it move more than 60 feet from me, the spell ends. But nothing says it can only move 15 feet per round; only that I can't order it to move more than fifteen feet before interacting with an object, and that I can't order it to perform a task that makes it move to leave my 60 ft. range.

Does this mean that it by default stays within 60 feet, following along potentially even maintaining relative position unless I order it otherwise? It's no tenser's floating disk with hundreds of pounds of carry capacity, but it could potentially drag 60 lbs of stuff in a little wagon or just on the ground and follow you around. Or carry 30 lbs of stuff in the air.

Again, I think the key here is the way it talks about giving commands that make IT leave 60 feet of YOU, rather than you walking more than 60 feet from it. This really seems to suggest to me that its default is staying where it is relative to you in range. And you can make it move up to 15 feet to change that relative position.

Does this seem like a reasonable interpretation? Like it breaks anything?


Bonus question: can you order it to move 15 feet up, say, to change or light candles in the chandellier?

[Deathtongue]

Now, the obvious answer is, "Geeze, Seg, it obviously finishes moving to the sink the next round,"I think an even more obvious answer is that ordering the unseen servant to move 20 feet to complete washing the dishes is an invalid command and it won't even attempt to go to the sink. That "and" means that you have to do both simultaneously. So, yes, if you have a long kitchen and you want to move the unseen servant from the stone to the pantry 20 feet away to get some onions, you have to give it at least two commands.

[Segev]

I think an even more obvious answer is that ordering the unseen servant to move 20 feet to complete washing the dishes is an invalid command and it won't even attempt to go to the sink. That "and" means that you have to do both simultaneously. So, yes, if you have a long kitchen and you want to move the unseen servant from the stone to the pantry 20 feet away to get some onions, you have to give it at least two commands.

You're right, and I was even thinking about that when I typed that up to the point that I was surprised when I went back and read it after seeing your post that I left it out. My bad.

There's a third, dysfunctional possibility, as well: unless there is an object within 15 feet of both the original task and the sink, you can't do it at all, because you have to order it to move up to 15 feet and interact with an object. (Of course, 'knock on the floor' would probably work, so I doubt any DM would try to hold you to this.)

[Mjolnirbear]

You use your bonus action to command. It follows your command to the best of its ability. It doesn't say you need to spend every bonus action reinforcing or updating commands.

So if it's 20 feet away from the sink and you tell it to go wash the dishes in the sink, it will take two turns to get there and start washing them on the second turn, with one command.

The spell outlines its limitations (move speed, carry weight) but it is basically a servant, less an extension of pure mental will and more a semi-autonomous magical force.

[Tanarii]

Does your party move at 1/10th speed in hostile adventuring sites (aka dungeons) so they can take ten times as long to automatically succeed on any checks they are making, such as searching for danger/traps? If so they're moving at 30 ft/minute, or 20ft/minute if you're using stealth.

Otherwise you're moving at 300ft/minute, or 30ft/round. 200/20ft if using stealth.

So you're probably fine. Worst case, you're probably slowing up the party by 5ft/round (50ft/minute) while your scout does his thing. That's still blazingly fast exploration in the typical adventuring site.

Especially by old school standards of 120ft per Turn (ten minutes), which assumed moving quietly and looking for traps, enemies, and searching rooms, etc. Basically the equivalent of taking your ten times as long to auto succeed on checks in this edition. Except even slower.

[Segev]

Does your party move at 1/10th speed in hostile adventuring sites (aka dungeons) so they can take ten times as long to automatically succeed on any checks they are making, such as searching for danger/traps? If so they're moving at 30 ft/minute, or 20ft/minute if you're using stealth.

Otherwise you're moving at 300ft/minute, or 30ft/round. 200/20ft if using stealth.

So you're probably fine. Worst case, you're probably slowing up the party by 5ft/round (50ft/minute) while your scout does his thing. That's still blazingly fast exploration in the typical adventuring site.

Especially by old school standards of 120ft per Turn (ten minutes), which assumed moving quietly and looking for traps, enemies, and searching rooms, etc. Basically the equivalent of taking your ten times as long to auto succeed on checks in this edition. Except even slower.

Huh. No, that's not something that parties in my experience do. The assumption we've tended to run with is that you get your passive perception when moving at walking speed. Though they do stop and search rooms and examine things. I get a lot of scoffing at the ridiculousness of the speeds given in ToA for overland travel from my players, who seem to think it should be faster. (Especially by ship; and I can't disagree over open ocean, as it seems like the DMG boat speeds are a bit on the slow side compared to real-world historical data my not-terribly-in-depth google-fu was able to scrounge up.)

Anyway, overland travel speed is a bit off-topic. Not entirely, as Tanarii's post about how slowly parties really move suggests, but could tangent pretty far if we're not careful. To continue this discussion, while the more I think about it, the more I like the notion that the move-15-feet is within that 60 foot radius, not against an absolute (with a caveat that it can anchor itself to a task)... I actknowldge why others disagree with this. There are some leaps (which I find totally reasonable ways to close the gaps in the spell text) that they may not appreciate, and they would make different leaps to close the gaps in the text, instead. So, for those who think that the unseen servant must use its own 15 ft movement to move relative to the world itself, lest it wink out when the caster moves too fast, I now ask: can it be interacted with?

It has AC (10) and hp (1), so it can presumably be attacked. It definitely takes AoE damage. Can it be grappled? It has a Strength score, so we even know what the mechanics for the opposed roll would be (it rolls with a -5 to the d20). How much does it weigh? Can it be carried?

A human servant could absolutely climb aboard a carriage and sit inside it. He could also climb onto the driver's seat and pilot it. Can an unseen servant? If so, your unseen servant can be carried on vehicles or mounts. Can it cling to your back, piggy-back style? Does it occupy a space, or is its shapelessness also a way to prevent that? This has odd implications either way: if it doesn't occupy a space, you can cram as many of them and 1 other medium or small creature into a space as you like; if it does occupy a space, you have a much bigger combat application than previously imagined in that it is an invisible creature on the battlefield and thus can serve as an obstacle to passage.

Side note: That's actually a good question: You can't pass through the space of a hostile creature (barring special abilities). What happens if you try to pass through an invisible hostile creature's space? Do you just bump into it and bounce harmlessly off? End side note

Despite the somewhat uncomfortable combat application, the fact that you could hand an unseen servant a tower shield and have it provide mobile (15 ft./round) cover and obstacles that way means that ruling on that side of it might actually be the cleaner ruling. Much as I'd prefer shapeless invisible servants who can all be crammed into one space for easy transport.

Either way, though, it would seem likely that they can be transported; if we're going by the rules for movement, creatures subjected to involuntary movement (including those riding mounts and vehicles) do not count that as their own movement. (The way 5e prevents cheesing this is by having it take all your movement to mount/dismount.)

[Magicspook]

I think you are overthinking this.
>you create an invisible creature
>its got stats as described in the spell
>it has a movement range of 15ft
>it can interact with objects
>if your DM actually keeps track of these things, it costs a bonus action to give it a new command

Who cares what the exact wording is? The intent of the spell is pretty clear.

[Segev]

I think you are overthinking this.
>you create an invisible creature
>its got stats as described in the spell
>it has a movement range of 15ft
>it can interact with objects
>if your DM actually keeps track of these things, it costs a bonus action to give it a new command

Who cares what the exact wording is? The intent of the spell is pretty clear.
The holes in the wording actually muddy the intent.

Are you meant to be stuck moving at 15 ft. per turn to keep it active? Is it meant to be left behind and able to keep working, or is it meant to wink out if you leave 60 ft. of it? CAN you leave 60 ft. of it without ordering it to go somewhere outside that radius?

[DrKerosene]

The holes in the wording actually muddy the intent.

-Are you meant to be stuck moving at 15 ft. per turn to keep it active?
-Is it meant to be left behind and able to keep working, or is it meant to wink out if you leave 60 ft. of it
-CAN you leave 60 ft. of it without ordering it to go somewhere outside that radius?

Depends on the game I’m running and what the group wants/needs. Like if I was DMing for a bunch of new people who needed simplicity, I’d probably say:

-If you want the Unseen Servant to move with you, yes you’re stuck moving at 15ft (unless you want to have the Unseen Servants ride in the back of a wagon or similar). You don’t have to use your Bonus Action every turn to keep commanding it moves somewhere new, you can just say “stay 30ft ahead of me” and then move at 15ft per turn.
-Wink-out.
-No.


But if I was encouraging familiar players to be creative, I’d allow Unseen Servants to be left behind to perform a task that doesn’t require moving on the grid. Seems easier than waiting until you can Animate Objects/Undead for basic tasks.

I’m fond of allowing standing orders too, like “if I fall over and appear dead, ring this bell” or “reload this siege weapon after I fire it”. So I’d probably be amused to see what my Players think up.

[Segev]

Depends on the game I’m running and what the group wants/needs. Like if I was DMing for a bunch of new people who needed simplicity, I’d probably say:

-If you want the Unseen Servant to move with you, yes you’re stuck moving at 15ft (unless you want to have the Unseen Servants ride in the back of a wagon or similar). You don’t have to use your Bonus Action every turn to keep commanding it moves somewhere new, you can just say “stay 30ft ahead of me” and then move at 15ft per turn.
-Wink-out.
-No.


But if I was encouraging familiar players to be creative, I’d allow Unseen Servants to be left behind to perform a task that doesn’t require moving on the grid. Seems easier than waiting until you can Animate Objects/Undead for basic tasks.

I’m fond of allowing standing orders too, like “if I fall over and appear dead, ring this bell” or “reload this siege weapon after I fire it”. So I’d probably be amused to see what my Players think up.

Just to be pedantic, if I asked, "Can I go 60 ft. away from it without ordering it to leave the radius?" and you said, "No," my understanding of that would be one of two things:

I physically can't leave the radius, so when I try, I hit an invisible tether or wall, or
Since I didn't order it to leave, it remains within 60 ft. of me as I move

Given the context of the rest of what you said, I suspect your answer is more meant to convey, "It winks out if you try." Am I right?

[DrKerosene]

Just to be pedantic, if I asked, "Can I go 60 ft. away from it without ordering it to leave the radius?" and you said, "No," my understanding of that would be one of two things:

I physically can't leave the radius, so when I try, I hit an invisible tether or wall, or
Since I didn't order it to leave, it remains within 60 ft. of me as I move

Given the context of the rest of what you said, I suspect your answer is more meant to convey, "It winks out if you try." Am I right?

1. If you can provide an instance of a spell that provides such a tether/wall effect, then sure, you can be ephemerally chained to your Unseen Servant(s)’s location. Otherwise I’d point to Warding Bond or Witchbolt as an example about range between the caster and a target, and the spell ending.

2. If you had ordered it to be following you, and did not move faster than 15ft per round, sure.

And yes, I would default to saying the Unseen Servant “winks out” if you try. Assuming the group has not already had a discussion about expecting such conjured things existing similarly to Familiars or Animated Undead, or even Phantom Steed.

[Segev]

1. If you can provide an instance of a spell that provides such a tether/wall effect, then sure, you can be ephemerally chained to your Unseen Servant(s)’s location. Otherwise I’d point to Warding Bond or Witchbolt as an example about range between the caster and a target, and the spell ending.

2. If you had ordered it to be following you, and did not move faster than 15ft per round, sure.

And yes, I would default to saying the Unseen Servant “winks out” if you try. Assuming the group has not already had a discussion about expecting such conjured things existing similarly to Familiars or Animated Undead, or even Phantom Steed.

As I said, I was being pedantic, and trying to illustrate by example a clarification of what I meant by the question, vs. what you apparently read into it. I figured I knew what you meant, but it was jarring to me to read the answer at first because you provided an answer to a different question than I intended, because you'd read a different question into it.

I do get what you mean.

[Ganryu]

Depends on the game I’m running and what the group wants/needs. Like if I was DMing for a bunch of new people who needed simplicity, I’d probably say:

-If you want the Unseen Servant to move with you, yes you’re stuck moving at 15ft (unless you want to have the Unseen Servants ride in the back of a wagon or similar). You don’t have to use your Bonus Action every turn to keep commanding it moves somewhere new, you can just say “stay 30ft ahead of me” and then move at 15ft per turn.
-Wink-out.
-No.


But if I was encouraging familiar players to be creative, I’d allow Unseen Servants to be left behind to perform a task that doesn’t require moving on the grid. Seems easier than waiting until you can Animate Objects/Undead for basic tasks.

I’m fond of allowing standing orders too, like “if I fall over and appear dead, ring this bell” or “reload this siege weapon after I fire it”. So I’d probably be amused to see what my Players think up.


I think this is a great point btw. Your players you have have a huge impact on how strict the rules are and what they can do. Newbies, try to keep it by KISS. More experienced players, for the most part, you can have a ton of fun by going as Crawford calls it "Rules as Fun."

Then again, if you have a pedantic player, perhaps KISS is the way to go.



As I said, I was being pedantic, and trying to illustrate by example a clarification of what I meant by the question, vs. what you apparently read into it. I figured I knew what you meant, but it was jarring to me to read the answer at first because you provided an answer to a different question than I intended, because you'd read a different question into it.

I do get what you mean.

Then quit being pedantic. In regards to GM'ing:

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/df/df5c504d10c538e4c5b88e308206a324ed6c0fcff9e54a3e13 1fc3c17aff7464.jpg

[Segev]

Then quit being pedantic.

My purpose was to illustrate the question I was asking vs. the question he answered, which were two different things. And pedantry is fun, but should be clearly labeled so it does not detract from meaning.