Multiclassing out of Paladin before taking an Oath

[Wasp]

Hi everyone

I am thinking about the concept of a character that starts out as a Paladin but realizes before taking his Oath at third level that this may not be his real path.

What would you do afterwards if you were only "allowed" two levels of Paladin and they had to be the taken at the start? I was thinking either Divine Soul or Celestial Warlock but I am not sure.

As a race I had in mind VHuman or maybe Halfelf, Aasimar or Changeling.

Standard Array/Point Buy. Assumed level range to 16

[LudicSavant]

Hi everyone

I am thinking about the concept of a character that starts out as a Paladin but realizes before taking his Oath at third level that this may not be his real path.

What would you do afterwards if you were only "allowed" two levels of Paladin and they had to be the taken at the start? I was thinking either Divine Soul or Celestial Warlock but I am not sure.

As a race I had in mind VHuman or maybe Halfelf, Aasimar or Changeling.

Standard Array/Point Buy. Assumed level range to 16

Swords Bard does very well for itself with two levels of Paladin.

[rickayelm]

Half elf celestial Warnock or divine soul sorcerer.

[Crgaston]

Hi everyone

I am thinking about the concept of a character that starts out as a Paladin but realizes before taking his Oath at third level that this may not be his real path.

What would you do afterwards if you were only "allowed" two levels of Paladin and they had to be the taken at the start? I was thinking either Divine Soul or Celestial Warlock but I am not sure.

As a race I had in mind VHuman or maybe Halfelf, Aasimar or Changeling.

Standard Array/Point Buy. Assumed level range to 16

Either of your choices would be great. It totally depends on the type of character you want to play. What didn't he like about being a Paladin? If it was the violence, leaning into something with more of a support role like DS Sorcerer or Celestial Warlock or even Lore Bard would be the obvious choice. You could keep Str at 13 or 14 and just boost Cha and whatever else. You wouldn't even need to take Blade pact if you go Warlock. You could get ALL the cantrips if you go Tome pact, or have a little sprite familiar who follows you around and nags you about your "responsibility to the order" or some such. You could go Fey pact and have a familiar who is urging you towards Oath of the Ancients, or you could go Hexblade and be urged towards Vengance.

If he's just not about being that devoted but still wants extra attack, Blade bard, as LudicSavant suggests, Valor Bard, or Blade pact Warlock will all get you there.

Bottom line is the Charisma classes are extremely fertile mechanically. You can just decide on what kind of personality/motivations/backstory your character has and the mechanics will fall together.

I just looked up the Celestial Generalist build to link for you to peruse to give you an idea of the possibilities. Guess who created that...?

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds

[Wasp]

Swords Bard does very well for itself with two levels of Paladin.I'll explore that option! Thanks!


Either of your choices would be great. It totally depends on the type of character you want to play. What didn't he like about being a Paladin? If it was the violence, leaning into something with more of a support role like DS Sorcerer or Celestial Warlock or even Lore Bard would be the obvious choice.
The idea was that he was drawn to some higher power, but that he has problems being part of a very hierarchical organization that has a very firm idea about that higher power that doesn't quite fit with his own experience. So he looks for a different way to follow this destiny and serve that higher power


Bottom line is the Charisma classes are extremely fertile mechanically. You can just decide on what kind of personality/motivations/backstory your character has and the mechanics will fall together.

I just looked up the Celestial Generalist build to link for you to peruse to give you an idea of the possibilities. Guess who created that...?

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds
I don't know- I assume it's someone quite eclectic above... ;-)

[Crgaston]

The idea was that he was drawn to some higher power, but that he has problems being part of a very hierarchical organization that has a very firm idea about that higher power that doesn't quite fit with his own experience. So he looks for a different way to follow this destiny and serve that higher power



That motivation suggests Warlock to me... bypassing the hierarchy and all that. Of course, sorcerer certainly isn't contraindicated. You'd get more of a cleric-y feel from DS Sorc and more of a Divine Champion from Warlock.

He'll have the ability to Smite in melee, if that's what you wish, by virtue of the 2 Paladin levels. If you go sorcerer, you'll have more spell slots per day with which to smite. You can also Twin or Quicken to get off multiple attacks in one round if you need to nova.

Warlock will have slightly better resourceless damage, but you'll have fewer Smites, and the only way to attack more than once per round will be to go Blade Pact.

Swords or Valor Bard gets you 2 attacks and full slots for smiting. They also have the most spells known, some overlap with the cleric spell list with regard to healing, and fantastic utility/buffs/debuffs.

Narratively, Warlock and Sorcerer work better if you want him to be drawing his magic directly from his connection with the higher power. Bard feels more like using his personal power in service to his deity. To me, anyway.

Sounds like a neat concept! Good luck, and hope to hear more!

[stoutstien]

Unpopular opinion: whisper bard. Psychic blade and divine smite lays down some serious hurt on top of some really good depop and going on with wrathful smite and dissonant whispers. didn't use magic secrets to poach Weber Paladin spells you wanted.
"I'll make myself a Paladin!"

[Evaar]

Swords Bard does very well for itself with two levels of Paladin.

Beat me to it.

But yeah, Swords Bard. Unless you rolled great stats you probably need to go with a Strength focus. But you get two Fighting Styles out of the deal (take Defensive on Paladin - you'll probably end up with Dueling from the Bard). You can Smite better than the average Paladin. And you bring the Bard's full suite of utility after a few levels.

I was thinking of a character like this, who intended to take the Oath of Vengeance but had a moment of revelation where he didn't want to devote his life to destroying and instead wanted to create. So prior to taking the Oath, he pivoted away to Bard.

[togapika]

The other responses have covered the class suggestions quite well, but if I may offer a roleplay idea. If you do end up taking something like Warlock or Sorcerer, I could easily see the main branch of the church (not the god, mind you) coming after you because you getting power from the same god, but in a different way with less dogma and rules (that they may have written many of themselves) irks them. Basically the idea of you not following the god in the way they want.

[Wasp]

I am in inner conflict now, from the feel the Smiting Bard sounds like a really fun thing to play, but I really like the idea of becoming a hunted for finding another way of divine might outside of the church - which may actually have moved from a church of justice and order to one of revenge and vengeance.

I mean I could probably reflavor the Blade Bard - but that feels a bit like cheating (as the idea came from the rules that a paladin only takes the Oath at third level).

Those difficult decisions!

[firelistener]

I agree it sounds like Warlock would match the most thematically since you would just swear direct allegiance to the entity in your pact instead of a paladin oath. Also super easy to make it work mechanically with the similar ideal stat spread. Since Divine Smite scales with the spell slot, you don't need to do anything special to keep it useful. Plus, the warlock slots will refill on short rest. Honestly though, you would probably be better off just using slots for warlock spells most of the time IMO.

[micahaphone]

Your oath/struggle could also come from your conflicting ideals and some facet of the church - maybe you're a rigorous idealist who wants to help the poor but the church leadership has transformed into more of a political entity.

The Paladin chapter does mention


When you reach 3rd level, you swear the oath that binds you as a paladin forever. Up to this time you have been in a preparatory stage, committed to the path but not yet sworn to it.

so you can be committed to the tenets of your oath, but not the mechanical impact of a subclass til later.

[Wasp]

I think I will go for the Swords Bard and re-flavor the class to receive their powers directly from the divine. I just feel it may be closer to how one would play as a paladin.

I am thinking

Half Elf
Noble
Paladin 2/Swords Bard X

STR 15+1=16
DEX 10
CON 13+1=14
INT 08
WIS 10
CHA 14+2=16

Skills: Perception, Insight, History, Persuasion, Athletics, Religion, (Intimidation)
Fighting Styles: Defensive, (Dueling)

What do you think? Opinions on ASI/Feats later on?

[Crgaston]

You could start with a 13 Con and 12 Wis and take Resilient:Con for your first feat since you won't be getting the Paladin's L6 aura. Or you could use the array you posted and take Warcaster. Otherwise you"ll be losing concentration at least 40% of the time you take ANY damage. And lots of good Bard spells are Concentration.
Other than that I would just do stat bumps unless you had a specific concept.

Edit:
You could also pull off a Dex build if you wanted to be sneaky at all.

13
15+1
13
8
9+1
14+2

Again with the Res:Con

Second edit:

Double check your PB.

I'm getting...
15+1
10
14+1
8
10
14+2

...on the calculator I'm using. So my initial Con/Wis suggestions are a point shy, too.

[Wasp]

Oops! You are right!

So it would be probably good to go with

STR 15+1=16
DEX 10
CON 14+1=15
INT 08
WIS 10
CHA 14+2=16

And take Resilient Con at 6th level

Or do a DEX-Build with

STR 13
DEX 15+1=16
CON 12+1=13
INT 08
WIS 10
CHA 14+2=16

and take Resilient Con cat 6th level as well.

I am also wondering if it would make sense to go Changeling to have Ch 18 from the start and go War Caster so it doesn't hurt as much that you get to 20 CHA rather late... Nah, that would hurt the primary attack to much, in that case it's probably better to go VHuman so you can take Resilient from the start...

[Quietus]

Oops! You are right!

So it would be probably good to go with

STR 15+1=16
DEX 10
CON 14+1=15
INT 08
WIS 10
CHA 14+2=16

And take Resilient Con at 6th level

Or do a DEX-Build with

STR 13
DEX 15+1=16
CON 12+1=13
INT 08
WIS 10
CHA 14+2=16

and take Resilient Con cat 6th level as well.

I am also wondering if it would make sense to go Changeling to have Ch 18 from the start and go War Caster so it doesn't hurt as much that you get to 20 CHA rather late... Nah, that would hurt the primary attack to much, in that case it's probably better to go VHuman so you can take Resilient from the start...

I've run exactly this with the dex build, though I dropped Wis to 8 and got Con to 14. I really wanted that 20 Cha as early as possible! Your plan will work as well, but you'll really feel that lack of Charisma, being it powers your spells AND your bardic inspiration/flourishes. There will be two things to keep in mind :

- Levels 6 and 7 can feel a bit slow, if you're expecting to be primarily melee. Everyone else has extra attack at 5, you'll get yours at 8. Spellcasting and Flourishes help, but you'll really feel the jump at 8. This isn't to say you won't be helpful, just that you'll feel more like support than primary melee during these levels.
- Speaking of spellcasting, expect this build to feel much more like a mix. Typically I would open combat by casting a spell to shape the field - Faerie Fire, Hold Person, and Hypnotic Pattern were big for this. Then I would wade in and start slinging swords.

I honestly had a blast with this character, and can heartily recommend it. Just be sure to consider if the 50/50 support/melee split sounds fun to you. If it is, then dive in with both feet!

::Edit:: If you wanted to go Vhuman, then I'd probably go more the "stalwart defender" route - Start with 15/10/13/8/10/15, bump Str/Cha, and take Res : Con at level 1, for Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16 to start. Alternatively bump Con/Cha with your racials and take Heavy Armor Master for 3 less damage from every physical hit, giving you an immediate niche. But I prefer the dex route above with half-elf, simply because with that kind of support/melee split, the higher dex means you can neutralize half the enemy party before they get to act.

[Wasp]

Thanks! We often were doing a house rule were we could pick a free feat at first level. Maybe it's time to do some convincing again!

[Quietus]

Thanks! We often were doing a house rule were we could pick a free feat at first level. Maybe it's time to do some convincing again!

Then I'd definitely do half elf, bump Dex/Con. Str 13/Dex 16/Con 13/Int 8/Wis 10/Cha 16 starting stat lineup, bonus feat Resilient : Con to bump that to a 14. Going this route allows you to really, truly be a jack of all trades. You have six skills to choose from, with two early Expertise. Grab a background that throws a tool proficiency of choice on there. Jack of all Trades literally does what it says on the tin. You've got control spells and melee combat, your choice of skills and a few optional spells to hit social/exploration pillars.

Leveling route, I chose :

1-3 : Bard, college of swords, Dueling fighting style
4-5 : Paladin, Defensive fighting style
6+ : Bard

You won't get the huge jump at 5, but since this build lends itself more to "Cast one spell, then melee", you should be okay there. You've got quite solid melee output for a secondary fighter, and can contribute with flourishes and the occasional smite. AC is your struggle at levels 1-3, damage output from about 5-7. At 8 you truly come into your own and become a powerhouse of flexibility, and you'll be regularly contributing all the way to that level.


Alternative option : Half elf, bump str/con, starting ability score lineup 16/10/14/8/10/17. Begin with Elven Accuracy for 18 Cha. I already found I was leading most early combats with Faerie Fire (or Bless, once I got it); capitalizing on that advantage would be scary business. And extremely party-friendly.

[Nagog]

I find that any Bard can really benefit from 2 levels of Paladin. You get the good good support/healing feel and abilities, as well as the Heavy Armor of the Paladin and the full Smite capacity of a Sorcadin without losing nearly as much health (d6 for Sorc levels vs. d8 for Bard). Beyond that, Magical Secrets can give you the really juicy Paladin spells otherwise lost by multiclassing, like Find Greater Steed or Banishing Smite.

[Nagog]

Then I'd definitely do half elf, bump Dex/Con. Str 13/Dex 16/Con 13/Int 8/Wis 10/Cha 16 starting stat lineup, bonus feat Resilient : Con to bump that to a 14. Going this route allows you to really, truly be a jack of all trades. You have six skills to choose from, with two early Expertise. Grab a background that throws a tool proficiency of choice on there. Jack of all Trades literally does what it says on the tin. You've got control spells and melee combat, your choice of skills and a few optional spells to hit social/exploration pillars.

Leveling route, I chose :

1-3 : Bard, college of swords, Dueling fighting style
4-5 : Paladin, Defensive fighting style
6+ : Bard

You won't get the huge jump at 5, but since this build lends itself more to "Cast one spell, then melee", you should be okay there. You've got quite solid melee output for a secondary fighter, and can contribute with flourishes and the occasional smite. AC is your struggle at levels 1-3, damage output from about 5-7. At 8 you truly come into your own and become a powerhouse of flexibility, and you'll be regularly contributing all the way to that level.


Alternative option : Half elf, bump str/con, starting ability score lineup 16/10/14/8/10/17. Begin with Elven Accuracy for 18 Cha. I already found I was leading most early combats with Faerie Fire (or Bless, once I got it); capitalizing on that advantage would be scary business. And extremely party-friendly.

I'd amend the original build to start with one level of Pally to get Con saves and Heavy armor. Multiclassing into Bard still gets you one free skill anywhere you choose (which I assume to be the main draw of starting there, the skills?), while Multiclassing Paladin only gets you to medium armor and martial weapons, which you'll already have from College of Swords. Considering that, you could start with Paladin, use the free starting feat to nab Elven Accuracy, then go Lore Bard. You'll miss out on a second attack at 8th level that Swords would give you, but you'll get the martial prowess much quicker and you'll never double up on proficiencies, as well as still having a defensive use of Inspiration that is far superior to Sword's flourishes for support purposes.

This does beg the question, however: If you're going for a Crit build, Flourishes may be considered rolling damage and therefore also doubled when crit. I say 'may' because the roll is used for more than just damage, so the DM may rule otherwise, and no RAW states that it is. That said, a Swords/Paladin would lose out on many overlapping proficiencies, particularly if you don't start out as a Paladin.

[Quietus]

I'd amend the original build to start with one level of Pally to get Con saves and Heavy armor. Multiclassing into Bard still gets you one free skill anywhere you choose (which I assume to be the main draw of starting there, the skills?), while Multiclassing Paladin only gets you to medium armor and martial weapons, which you'll already have from College of Swords. Considering that, you could start with Paladin, use the free starting feat to nab Elven Accuracy, then go Lore Bard. You'll miss out on a second attack at 8th level that Swords would give you, but you'll get the martial prowess much quicker and you'll never double up on proficiencies, as well as still having a defensive use of Inspiration that is far superior to Sword's flourishes for support purposes.

This does beg the question, however: If you're going for a Crit build, Flourishes may be considered rolling damage and therefore also doubled when crit. I say 'may' because the roll is used for more than just damage, so the DM may rule otherwise, and no RAW states that it is. That said, a Swords/Paladin would lose out on many overlapping proficiencies, particularly if you don't start out as a Paladin.

Paladin doesn't add Con saves. You get Wis and Cha. Bard gets Dex and Cha. For the build I did, Bard first made more sense because I wanted the dex save proficiency, and the levelling is a bit smoother. If you go Paladin first and only start picking up Bard abilities at 3, you're going to feel behind for much longer.

Swords bard is chosen for a couple of reasons :


Extra Attack
Flourishes
Dueling style
Most importantly : The ability to use your weapon as a spell focus. Without this, you can't go sword/shield while still spellcasting.


I love Lore bard a lot, but it doesn't help in melee outside of the occasional Cutting Words to reduce incoming damage.

[Wasp]

Well, I'll have to start with Paladin just because of the character concept.

[Quietus]

Well, I'll have to start with Paladin just because of the character concept.

That's fair, I got too far into the mechanics. My apologies. However, that to me would suggest leaning into the heavy armor build; starting with 15 str/10 dex/13 con/10 int/10 wis/16 cha, Resilient : Con, and Heavy Armor Master would be pretty incredible. The towering defender type, intended to be part of the front line of a combat, with better staying power than most. Really increases survivability at low levels.