Spell storing item. Which spells should be off limits

[stoutstien]

The thread about ranking 1st level spells got me thinking. In the future there's going to be new artificer subclasses. With the SSI it how is generally interacts with the action economy witch spells should never be allowed to be put in it?

For reference
it can be any 1st or 2nd level spell with a casting time of one
action.

[BloodBrandy]

Well first off, I wouldn't be so sure Armorer will go live. Plenty of subclasses in the past have been on UA but never in a book (Lore Wizard, Invention Wizard, Satire Bard, Brute Fighter, etc.).

Secondly, I don't really think any would be. If it's to the level you can cast it to store it into the ring, you are probably facing enemies who can handle it. Also keep in mind it's a level 11 feature, and I can't think of any level 1 or 2 spell, cast at level 1 or 2, that would be considered over powered.

[LudicSavant]

The casting time of one action limitation is really helpful for reigning it in, honestly. It blocks out things like Find Familiar and the like. They should have given that wording (or something like it) to the Chronurgist and the Ring of Spell Storing.

[Dork_Forge]

The only spells that I don't like the feel of are Magic Missile and Ice Knife



Well first off, I wouldn't be so sure Armorer will go live. Plenty of subclasses in the past have been on UA but never in a book (Lore Wizard, Invention Wizard, Satire Bard, Brute Fighter, etc.).

Secondly, I don't really think any would be. If it's to the level you can cast it to store it into the ring, you are probably facing enemies who can handle it. Also keep in mind it's a level 11 feature, and I can't think of any level 1 or 2 spell, cast at level 1 or 2, that would be considered over powered.

It's not necessarily whether or not the Armorer gets published, but more as evidence that they're still working on and considering additional Artificer content after Rising from the Last War.

[stoutstien]

Dissonant whisper could be brutal. Have any available action turn into a lot of AOOs and reaction denial.

[BloodBrandy]

The casting time of one action limitation is really helpful for reigning it in, honestly. It blocks out things like Find Familiar and the like. They should have given that wording (or something like it) to the Chronurgist and the Ring of Spell Storing.


Dissonant whisper could be brutal. Have any available action turn into a lot of AOOs and reaction denial.


The only spells that I don't like the feel of are Magic Missile and Ice Knife

Keep in mind the Spell Storing Item is also restricted to spells the Artificer making it can cast from the Artificer spell list. Dissonant Whisper, Find Familiar, even Ice Knife aren't on there. The restrictions are already pretty stringent on it as it is, and a lot of the options on the main artificer spell list are support options. Outside of the Subclass expanded spells, Artificer only has 2 spells on first and second level that do damage and are an Action spell, Catapult and Heat Metal. Any other spells are support or healing.

Of the subclass spells, Battlesmith actually has no damaging spells that use an action.

Alchemist gets Ray of Sickness, Melf's Acid Arrow and Flaming Sphere. Ray of Sickness is nothing to write home about and Acid Arrow isn't especially strong, and since it's going through an item doesn't benefit from the Alchemist level 5 feature. Flaming sphere is alright, but by level 11 a base level 2 one isn't going to be terribly powerful.

Artillerist gets Thunderwave, Scorching Ray and Shatter. Not bad, and better than the Alchemist, but still limited to level 2 overall.

Yes, it can be a helpful thing and honestly, I think the most effective way to use Spell Storing Item is with the Tiny Servant spell or as an "Oh ****" emergency item when the artificer themselves are out of spell slots and Cantrips won't cut it, but I struggle to think of any spells that could be on an Artificer subclass that would make this broken by the time you get it.

Or it could be an emergency medic option so you don't need to keep Cure Wounds prepared >.>

[stoutstien]

Keep in mind the Spell Storing Item is also restricted to spells the Artificer making it can cast from the Artificer spell list. Dissonant Whisper, Find Familiar, even Ice Knife aren't on there. The restrictions are already pretty stringent on it as it is, and a lot of the options on the main artificer spell list are support options. Outside of the Subclass expanded spells, Artificer only has 2 spells on first and second level that do damage and are an Action spell, Catapult and Heat Metal. Any other spells are support or healing.

Of the subclass spells, Battlesmith actually has no damaging spells that use an action.

Alchemist gets Ray of Sickness, Melf's Acid Arrow and Flaming Sphere. Ray of Sickness is nothing to write home about and Acid Arrow isn't especially strong, and since it's going through an item doesn't benefit from the Alchemist level 5 feature. Flaming sphere is alright, but by level 11 a base level 2 one isn't going to be terribly powerful.

Artillerist gets Thunderwave, Scorching Ray and Shatter. Not bad, and better than the Alchemist, but still limited to level 2 overall.

Yes, it can be a helpful thing and honestly, I think the most effective way to use Spell Storing Item is with the Tiny Servant spell or as an "Oh ****" emergency item when the artificer themselves are out of spell slots and Cantrips won't cut it, but I struggle to think of any spells that could be on an Artificer subclass that would make this broken by the time you get it.

Or it could be an emergency medic option so you don't need to keep Cure Wounds prepared >.>

The point of this thread was the theory crafts future spells that might end up on the artificer's spell list. Seeing how so far the subclass lists are new spell it means that most likely when we do get something new we're going to get new spell as well.

There's already quite a few spells that could be gained by taking a dragonmark subrace.

[stoutstien]

The only spells that I don't like the feel of are Magic Missile and Ice Knife


Ice knife is borderline for me and I agree with MM. Guiding bolt is also borderline.

[KorvinStarmast]

Which spells should be off limits
None of them. A spell is a spell is a spell. If there is going to be a limit on the artificer's item, then limit it with a eye toward the item in the game that is already a spell storage device: the Ring of Spell Storing.

[stoutstien]

None of them. A spell is a spell is a spell. If there is going to be a limit on the artificer's item, then limit it with a eye toward the item in the game that is already a spell storage device: the Ring of Spell Storing.

something to keep in mind with this is a spell storing items does not work like a spell storing ring. The spell that is place inside the SSI doesn't even have to be prepared by the artificer. It just has to be on their list. When somebody activates the SSI they produce the effects of the spell but it isn't casting. That means stuff like a raging Barbarian could use it to give himself mirror image and can be used while under the effect of the invisibility or sanctuary as long as it doesn't directly damage someone.

[Bobthewizard]

The casting time of one action limitation is really helpful for reigning it in, honestly. It blocks out things like Find Familiar and the like. They should have given that wording (or something like it) to the Chronurgist and the Ring of Spell Storing.

Wouldn't using a ring of spell storing to cast find familiar still take 1 hour and require components? The ring says "While wearing this ring, you can cast any spell stored in it. The spell uses the slot level, spell save DC, spell Attack bonus, and Spellcasting Ability of the original caster, but is otherwise treated as if you cast the spell."

The ring doesn't say you can avoid components or cast the spell using an action. Is there something I'm missing?

[KorvinStarmast]

Wouldn't using a ring of spell storing to cast find familiar still take 1 hour and require components? The ring says "While wearing this ring, you can cast any spell stored in it. The spell uses the slot level, spell save DC, spell Attack bonus, and Spellcasting Ability of the original caster, but is otherwise treated as if you cast the spell."

The ring doesn't say you can avoid components or cast the spell using an action. Is there something I'm missing?
I don't think so. To get the spell into the ring, you have to cast it into the ring. So the time and components have already been expended. (This may be covered in an SA entry, let me check - rats, checked, and I don't see it there).

Here's how I understand the description.
(SRD Ring of Spell Storing, same as in the DMG).
(note; requires attunement)


This ring stores spells cast into it, holding them until the attuned wearer uses them. {snip seplls in it when found}

Any creature can cast a spell of 1st through 5th level into the ring by touching the ring as the spell is cast. The spell has no effect, other than to be stored in the ring. If the ring can’t hold the spell, the spell is expended without effect. The level of the slot used to cast the spell determines how much space it uses.
Now here's the fun part. The ring does not limit itself to spell casters or classes the way some magic items do.

While wearing this ring, you can cast any spell stored in it.
(but, if we go back to the header, you do need to be attuned to it to use it)


The spell uses the slot level, spell save DC, spell attack bonus, and spellcasting ability of the original caster, but is otherwise treated as if you cast the spell. The spell cast from the ring is no longer stored in it, freeing up space. You don't have to be a spell caster to use the ring, but you do have to be able to cast a spell in order fill up its slots. That points to the spell casting requirements are being accomplished by the original spell caster in the process of storing the spell.

The order of operations, then, for a barbarian to be able to case find familiar would be:
1. Wizard attunes to ring.
2. Wizard casts find familiar into the ring.
3. Wizard unattunes/Barbarian attunes to the ring.
4. Barbarian casts find familiar from the ring.

The only part that I am not sure about is if the caster absolutely must be attuned to the ring in order to fill up its slot/slots. I think that is the case, but as I read the text, I wonder:

Any creature can cast a spell of 1st through 5th level into the ring by touching the ring as the spell is cast

Maybe, if I am attuned to the ring, any caster can recharge it for me. That has not come up in our games so far, so I don't have a feel for that.

@stoutstein: OK, I need to go back into that article and review some details. (Don't have my Eberron book with me at the moment).

[Bobthewizard]

So it looks like it doesn't require new components, but the casting time is still the original casting time. From the DMG on using Magic Items:

Some magic items allow you to cast a spell from the item. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell level, doesn't expend any spell slots, and requires no components, unless the item's description says otherwise. The spell uses its normal casting time, range and duration, and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires concentration.

Since Ring of Spell Storing doesn't say it takes an action, it should take the full casting time.

[Lunali]

You don't have to be a spell caster to use the ring, but you do have to be able to cast a spell in order fill up its slots. That points to the spell casting requirements are being accomplished by the original spell caster in the process of storing the spell.

The order of operations, then, for a barbarian to be able to case find familiar would be:
1. Wizard attunes to ring.
2. Wizard casts find familiar into the ring.
3. Wizard unattunes/Barbarian attunes to the ring.
4. Barbarian casts find familiar from the ring.

The only part that I am not sure about is if the caster absolutely must be attuned to the ring in order to fill up its slot/slots. I think that is the case, but as I read the text, I wonder:


Maybe, if I am attuned to the ring, any caster can recharge it for me. That has not come up in our games so far, so I don't have a feel for that.

Any caster can put spells into the ring by touching it while casting, the only attunement requirement is for casting spells from the ring.

[LudicSavant]

Wouldn't using a ring of spell storing to cast find familiar still take 1 hour and require components? The ring says "While wearing this ring, you can cast any spell stored in it. The spell uses the slot level, spell save DC, spell Attack bonus, and Spellcasting Ability of the original caster, but is otherwise treated as if you cast the spell."

The ring doesn't say you can avoid components or cast the spell using an action. Is there something I'm missing?

The issue is that they can get a familiar or magic steed at all. A spell storing ring shouldn't be granting semi-permanent companions to the whole party.

[stoutstien]

The issue is that they can get a familiar or magic steed at all. A spell storing ring shouldn't be granting semi-permanent companions to the whole party.

as a broad statement magical items rarely have any semblance of balance concerns factored in.

As you said earlier, the casting time restriction couples with the limit of 1st or 2nd level spells keeps the SSI sane.

SSI can work with thieves fast hand or haste additional action which can lead to some shenanigans but the ring is bad even if it's just used as a spell battery for a caster.

[MaxWilson]

The thread about ranking 1st level spells got me thinking. In the future there's going to be new artificer subclasses. With the SSI it how is generally interacts with the action economy witch spells should never be allowed to be put in it?

For reference
it can be any 1st or 2nd level spell with a casting time of one
action.

Witch Bolt, because putting that spell on a subclass list is a complete waste.

Honestly I can't think of any that would be bad. Sleep or Magic Missile would have the most impact if you share the SSI around a group of e.g. animated skeletons, but even then, it's only about 100 HP of damage from Magic Missile or 220 HP of (poorly-distributed) Sleep "damage". That's not game-breaking IMO.

Mage Armor would be a decent spell to SSI, if it were available, especially if you were friends with e.g. a Shepherd Druid planning to summon a bunch of Quicklings for you to Mage Armor. But it wouldn't be broken, just good, and it's the kind of thing a normal wizard could do just out of spell slots.

[stoutstien]

Witch Bolt, because putting that spell on a subclass list is a complete waste.

Honestly I can't think of any that would be bad. Sleep or Magic Missile would have the most impact if you share the SSI around a group of e.g. animated skeletons, but even then, it's only about 100 HP of damage from Magic Missile or 220 HP of (poorly-distributed) Sleep "damage". That's not game-breaking IMO.

Mage Armor would be a decent spell to SSI, if it were available, especially if you were friends with e.g. a Shepherd Druid planning to summon a bunch of Quicklings for you to Mage Armor. But it wouldn't be broken, just good, and it's the kind of thing a normal wizard could do just out of spell slots.

Mage armor would be okay for skeleton in zombies also. Good find

[MaxWilson]

Mage armor would be okay for skeleton in zombies also. Good find

Mage Armor is good on air elementals and invisible stalkers too. For skeletons and zombies you can consider also just buying them scale male (for skeletons) or chain mail (for zombies).

[BloodBrandy]

The point of this thread was the theory crafts future spells that might end up on the artificer's spell list. Seeing how so far the subclass lists are new spell it means that most likely when we do get something new we're going to get new spell as well.

There's already quite a few spells that could be gained by taking a dragonmark subrace.

All the same, like I said, I just can't think of any level 1 or 2 spells that take an action that would be overpowered at level 11 onwards. As far as I can tell the whole feature is more to make the class, which is a half caster that leans more towards full caster than Paladin or Ranger, feel a bit more like a full caster and making up for the more limited spell slots in comparison.