Interesting Quirks of the Dragonborn Template

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b) is an LA +0 template that removes most of your original racial traits, giving you new traits in their place. You also keep all of the traits of your type and subtype(s), as well as modes of movement (including flight, and therefore wings), size, size modifiers (such as the half-giant's powerful build) and so on.

There are some wonky rules interactions due to which racial traits are kept and which are lost.

For instance, warforged remain constructs, and they retain the [living construct] subtype. Fortunately, almost everything that makes a warforged good is from these two traits. All you lose is your slam attack and your composite plating (which usually costs a feat to remove).

Elan (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#elans) lose tons of stuff, although they remain [psionic] aberrations. What they lose includes, ironically enough, their lack of darkvision. That's a racial trait of elan, which they lose upon becoming dragonborn. But since they retain their type, and the aberration type has darkvision, they actually gain darkvision as a result of becoming dragonborn (along with wings etc, depending on what they choose).

A racial alteration from a feat (such as Human Heritage, Dragonwrought, and Otherworldly) should still stick around, since you still retain the feat after becoming dragonborn (although taking it using a racial bonus feat means you'll probably lose it). So a Dragonwrought kobold retains all the benefits of the Dragonwrought feat, including Darkvision and Low-Light Vision, even though you'd normally lose such things.

So, are there any other strange combinations that have unexpected benefits?

[Thurbane]

I always found it counter-intuitive that assuming a scaly, dragonlike form wipes out your existing natural armor bonus, and sets it to +0.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Raptorans have get a 40ft fly speed (average) at 5HD, but with some limitations.

The Dragonborn template keeps the fly speed (alternate movement modes being one of the few things preserved), but the limitations are due to a racial trait that Rebirth removes. I think. Can't see a DM actually ruling that way, honestly.

EDIT: Does their glide speed count as an alternate movement mode, or is it lost as well? I assume it counts.

[Rater202]

I always thought it was weird that becoming a Dragonborn took away learned skills that were the result of on's upbringing or cultural experiences, like the Human's bonus feat, stone cunning, or racial weapon proficiencies. That has nothing to do with what shape your body is.

A while back I considered a "full progression Racial Paragon Class" for Dragonborn that started with you getting back whatever racial traits you lost as level 1 and ended with you being an actual dragon at level 20 but I could never come up with anything for the middle 18. It was inspired by my confusion about how little sense that made.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

The aquatic subtype makes it so that you have a swim speed and can breath water. Many of these species suffer various penalties when on land, even if they have the Amphibious special quality that lets them breathe air. Dragonborn eliminates those penalties. It also eliminates the amphibious special quality, meaning that if an Aquatic Halfling takes Dragonborn, it loses any ability to breathe air and becomes entirely water-based, which makes 0 sense.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you gain Dragonborn (Wings) you won't have a fly speed until 6th level. If you later gain Mineral Warrior (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) but it's prior to 6th level, you would normally lose the ability to fly, but you don't yet have that so nothing is lost. You'll still gain the ability to fly when you reach 6th level, despite having that template. Throw those on a Water Orc and you've also got a swim speed!

Edit: Unrelated, but anything with racial HD that gains one level of the Half-Fiend Template Class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) immediately gains the Outsider creature type and retroactively gain eight base skill points per racial HD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm). You're never forced to finish taking one of those template classes (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a). You can also combine that with the variant Half-Fiend (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) to gain additional class skills for those racial HD. This works well with a Marrulurk from Sandstorm, using a Babau as the fiendish parent for class skills (and it's even thematically appropriate).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Speaking of template classes, they're class levels (which you keep the abilities of) that give you racial abilities (which you lose).

So, what abilities does my werewolf ghost (https://web.archive.org/web/20190908183229/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) get?

[The Viscount]

Like almost everything, it interacts weird with Dvati. Since twins are a racial trait, it would follow that they would lose this upon the ritual. One might say that the dragonborn twin goes on with their life and the other twin..... slowly dies as if their twin had died? A little unclear.
I prefer to imagine that both twins do the ritual together and fuse to become a single dragonborn.
Two Dvati enter! One Dvati leaves! Or imagine they do the fusion dance before beginning if that's more your speed.

A hellbred who becomes dragonborn loses the trait that keeps them from being raised normally due to devil claim on their soul. Instant redemption!

[Wildstag]

Any of the shapechanger races lose their gimmick and become human-minus dragonborn. So, for example, a Hengeyokai Dragonborn would lose its Alternate Form, making them just a -2 Wisdom chassis. Same goes for Tibbits and a weird aspect of this is that the Dragonborn Tibbit can still speak to Felines.

Sidebar, but the Tibbit racial trait section is pretty poorly edited. The Darkvision segment includes the line "lupins can function just fine with no light at all" (good for them I guess), and the Tibbits possess the "Shapeshifter subtype" which really should be the "shapechanger" subtype.

Also, I've long thought about playing a Pseudodragon since they have a non-cohort level adjustment. But a Pseudodragon Dragonborn would lose Blindsense and Telepathy. And this may just be me misreading the Dragonborn rebirth segment, but would the Pseudodragon become a Humanoid, or is the base stats in RotD assuming the original is Humanoid, and the "Mechanics of Rebirth" expands to allow non-humanoid Dragonborn?

[The Viscount]

Dragonborn unfortunately presents conflicting information. It says that your type is Humanoid (Dragonblood) in the racial traits section, but in Mechanics of Rebirth 2 pages later it says that you retain your original type and just add the dragonblood subtype. Then again, in the racial traits section under Humanoid it also says "For all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a dragon and a member of her original race.*" So I'm going to chalk this up to some poor editing and/or the writers forgetting about nonhumanoid playable races. It seems like some of the writers knew about other races, given the requirements are Int 3, but others didn't, given the intro fluff text talking about humanoids.
I can't tell you an answer for sure. I feel like you'd probably still be Dragon type (in which case you wouldn't gain the dragonblood subtype), but I can't prove it. The entry doesn't describe if you'd even gain a humanoid shape or if you'd stay looking like a Pseudodragon. You'd definitely be Tiny either way.

*This also means you can use the bit about dragons automatically qualifying for anything with dragonblood in the requirements to enter prestige classes early or take feats whenever you want by strict RAW.

[Blue Jay]

The aquatic subtype makes it so that you have a swim speed and can breath water. Many of these species suffer various penalties when on land, even if they have the Amphibious special quality that lets them breathe air. Dragonborn eliminates those penalties. It also eliminates the amphibious special quality, meaning that if an Aquatic Halfling takes Dragonborn, it loses any ability to breathe air and becomes entirely water-based, which makes 0 sense.

Yeah, the decisions about what you keep and what you lose seem pretty arbitrary. Like, I don't quite understand why a dragonborn goliath keeps Powerful Build but a dragonborn dwarf doesn't keep Stability. Those are both qualities related to the base creature's build and physique, so they ought to be affected the same way by the template; but they're not. Little quirks like that just make the template feel really non-intuitive to me.

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I feel like Dragonborn works better if you just treat it as a base race, using the racial abilities described in the "racial traits" section, and just ignore the sidebar that describes how to use it as a template.

[ShurikVch]

Elan (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#elans) lose tons of stuff, although they remain [psionic] aberrations. What they lose includes, ironically enough, their lack of darkvision. That's a racial trait of elan, which they lose upon becoming dragonborn. But since they retain their type, and the aberration type has darkvision, they actually gain darkvision as a result of becoming dragonborn (along with wings etc, depending on what they choose).Does it mean Races Of Air (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfAir) would get actual fly speed after the transformation (regardless of which Draconic Aspect they selected)?
Because...
Air creatures always have fly speeds and usually have perfect maneuverability.Always - except for "Races Of Air"...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Does it mean Races Of Air (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfAir) would get actual fly speed after the transformation (regardless of which Draconic Aspect they selected)?

Because...Always - except for "Races Of Air"...

That doesn't actually say you gain the [Air] subtype, though, so you don't.

[daremetoidareyo]

A petitioner who goes dragonborn can leave his plane

[Celestia]

Yeah, the decisions about what you keep and what you lose seem pretty arbitrary.
It's always bothered me that a dragonborn loses natural attacks. So a dragonborn minotaur can no longer use their horns. A dragonborn centaur forgets how to kick. A dragonborn lizardfolk can't claw or bite even though dragons, themselves, can? It's absolutely dumb, and I 100% believe that's it's an oversight made because whoever wrote this forgot that some people don't always play as humans or elves.

I just ignore that part and let them keep natural attacks.

[Wildstag]

A petitioner can leave their plane without being Dragonborn, Factol Hashkar was a Mechanus petitioner in Sigil.

And yeah, the way it interacts with natural attacks really bites. And it's so open about other things. Would a Bariaur keep their Quadruped ability? Probably, since that feature just reiterates how quadrupeds work in the game. They lose their Spell Resistance though, despite that being almost certainly part of the essence of what they are. And they almost definitely lose their Powerful charge ability.

I really just wish the template had been edited by someone that read it through the lens of an anything-goes style table.

[Thurbane]

The trick is finding a race that mainly has drawbacks (light sensitivity etc.) as special features which Dragonborn erases.

That's part of why Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#waterOrcs) Dragonborn seem to be quite popular.

[Rater202]

Honestly would applying it as a template over the base race without taking anything away, just... Giving the stat changes and perks break anything?

This game is already majorly unbalanced as is so I don't see "you count as a dragon sometimes, a few minor perks, and one dragon-like ability that gets better as you get more hit dice" for no LA being that OP. It'll have no effect on most casters and most non-casters need all the help they can get.

[ShurikVch]

That doesn't actually say you gain the [Air] subtype, though, so you don't.True; but for Half-Air Elementals it's still a problem (since they gain the [Air] subtype, but not Fly speed)



Dragonborn unfortunately presents conflicting information. It says that your type is Humanoid (Dragonblood) in the racial traits section, but in Mechanics of Rebirth 2 pages later it says that you retain your original type and just add the dragonblood subtype. Then again, in the racial traits section under Humanoid it also says "For all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a dragon and a member of her original race.*" So I'm going to chalk this up to some poor editing and/or the writers forgetting about nonhumanoid playable races. It seems like some of the writers knew about other races, given the requirements are Int 3, but others didn't, given the intro fluff text talking about humanoids."All PCs are Medium-sized Humanoids" bias is deeply-ingrained among the authors (they even forgetting Gnomes and Halflings aren't Medium! :smallamused:)


It's always bothered me that a dragonborn loses natural attacks. So a dragonborn minotaur can no longer use their horns. A dragonborn centaur forgets how to kick. A dragonborn lizardfolk can't claw or bite even though dragons, themselves, can?It's even worse for creatures with Slam as the only attack: if Golems, at the very least, would be able to use some weapons, then Oozes (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm) are go complete non-combatant - unless they would try psionic path or something similar (Wizard would be difficult because of lack of hands and inability to speak)

[The Viscount]

"All PCs are Medium-sized Humanoids" bias is deeply-ingrained among the authors (they even forgetting Gnomes and Halflings aren't Medium! :smallamused:)


How do they do that?

[Powerdork]

How do they do that?

Mostly by forgetting they're in the Player's Handbook and that splatbook design should thus at least account for Small PCs. It's there if you dig.

[The Viscount]

Oh certainly in general they do that, I was just asking what was wrong with Dragonborn.
The description mentions that you keep your original size, and there are 2 pages of Dragonborn characters that include small characters, so what's the problem this specific time?

[Sinner's Garden]

He was making a general observation. They didn't forget Small characters this specific time, but they did forget non-humanoids this specific time.