Are kobolds as bad a race as they look?

[Segev]

I suspect the answer is "yes," but it's one of those things that I don't entirely trust myself on. In Volo's Guide, we get stats for Kobolds as PCable creatures. They are a rare case of a stat penalty (to strength) in 5e, and they have the negative racial trait of light-blindness (or whatever it's called; the drow have it in the core book. Basically, disadvantage on perception checks related to anything in bright light, or when they're in bright light). Their most notable - in terms of uniqueness, anyway - feature is literally being pathetic, which lets them give Advantage to allies by being a whiny distraction in front of enemies.

Is this feature - or anything else they get - so amazing that it justifies a stat penalty and a negative trait? I know the negative trait is on their monster entry, but that would seem reason to give them an actually cool feature. The fact their unique feature is one that makes them look as uncool as possible seems like a slap in the face to anybody who thinks there's potential flavor in the kobold.

But I am not always the best at recognizing potential. Is the kobold better than I think it is?

I won't be surprised to find out it's as bad as I think it is, but I wouldn't want to start speculating on improvements if it's already better than it looks to me.

[BarneyBent]

Pack. Tactics.

Constant advantage against foes near an ally is extremely good. Works well on a ranged Rogue build, granting advantage in situations you're already trying to engineer for Sneak Attack, and cancelling out Sunlight Sensitivity if you happen to be in direct sunlight.

Yes, if you expect your campaign to involve lots and lots of combat in direct sunlight then it's a problem, but if not then its fine and easily worked around.

The strength penalty is annoying but as a small race you're unlikely to be playing a STR focused character anyway.

[OldTrees1]

Kobolds are good at having advantage. I know a lot of optimization fawns over reliable repeatable sources of advantage.

But I prefer things like extra skill proficiencies. (I miss the fine detail of skill points)

[P. G. Macer]

They are pretty bad, though Pack Tactics make some optimizers drool like a kid in a candy store.

Kobolds are generally pigeonholed into being rogues in order to take advantage of Pack Tactics for Sneak Attack shenanigans.

From what I can tell, the –2 STR penalty is there to disincentivize Great Weapon Master builds, as Pack Tactics would otherwise cancel out the disadvantage from being Small and wielding a Heavy weapon.

Grovel, Cower, and Beg, as you note, while mechanically potent, is thematically a roleplaying pigeonhole, as (barring refluffing) you either have to portray your kobold as a sniveling loser or not use one of your two powerful abilities.

IMHO, Wizards should have further departed from the Monster Manual Kobold when designing the race for Volo’s Guide, as the race as it is happens to be very uneven, either being highly effective or dead weight.

[Luccan]

I suspect the answer is "yes," but it's one of those things that I don't entirely trust myself on. In Volo's Guide, we get stats for Kobolds as PCable creatures. They are a rare case of a stat penalty (to strength) in 5e, and they have the negative racial trait of light-blindness (or whatever it's called; the drow have it in the core book. Basically, disadvantage on perception checks related to anything in bright light, or when they're in bright light). Their most notable - in terms of uniqueness, anyway - feature is literally being pathetic, which lets them give Advantage to allies by being a whiny distraction in front of enemies.

Is this feature - or anything else they get - so amazing that it justifies a stat penalty and a negative trait? I know the negative trait is on their monster entry, but that would seem reason to give them an actually cool feature. The fact their unique feature is one that makes them look as uncool as possible seems like a slap in the face to anybody who thinks there's potential flavor in the kobold.

But I am not always the best at recognizing potential. Is the kobold better than I think it is?

I won't be surprised to find out it's as bad as I think it is, but I wouldn't want to start speculating on improvements if it's already better than it looks to me.

I mean, it's playable. As others have said, reliable advantage is nothing to scoff at. That said, I think its features lend themselves pretty exclusively to rogues and the like. Something that doesn't mind getting a little closer to melee, but is also comfortable at range.

[Jerrykhor]

Kobolds aren't very good, but Orcs are worse. Thoough orcs have quite possibly the worst racials of all races. I think Kobolds are somewhere in the same tier as Goliaths - a little underwhelming, but still viable.

[Avonar]

I will never allow a kobold in my games, mechanically it's ridiculous having seen someone playing a kobold paladin. The ability to have advantage most of the time overcomes sunlight sensitivity, and the abillity to just give all your allies advantage for a round is just filthy. Bear in mind that Pack Tactics isn't just for melee, it applies to ranged and spell attacks too. I could see an extremely powerful kobold warlock.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I mean, it's playable. As others have said, reliable advantage is nothing to scoff at. That said, I think its features lend themselves pretty exclusively to rogues and the like. Something that doesn't mind getting a little closer to melee, but is also comfortable at range.

They make good leader/controller Barbarians. Weirdly enough.

They make pretty awesome Cleric, Druids, and Wizards. Spells with attack rolls = yes please.

Sunlight problems? Normal attack roll with pack tactics.

Enemy gets to close to you? Beg and grovel.

Warlock Kobolds can get advantage on Eldritch Blast... I mean, come on! Even with a lower starting charisma you will be hitting well.

[Dr. Cliché]

Sunlight problems? Normal attack roll with pack tactics.

I don't see how that's a good thing. Unless you love playing a character who can never get Advantage when outdoors. :smallconfused:

[sithlordnergal]

They're not the worst by any means, but I think they got the short end of the stick. Pack Tactics is exceptionally strong, so I think that more than justifies them having the Sunlight weakness. Plus I think there's a magic item that can remove Sunlight Sensitivity...though I may be wrong. That said, there's really no reason for them to have a strength penalty. Grovel, Cower, and Beg isn't strong enough to warrant a strength penalty, and Pack Tactics on its own isn't strong enough to warrant Sunlight Sensitivity and a strength penalty.

EDIT: Not only that but Kobolds only get +2 Dex and -2 Strength. Compare that to a Goblin, which gets +2 Dex, +1 Con, and pretty strong racial abilities. All in all, if you wanna play a Kobold, I'd suggest playing a Goblin. You avoid the negatives, and end up doing the same job a Kobold can do, but better.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I don't see how that's a good thing. Unless you love playing a character who can never get Advantage when outdoors. :smallconfused:

Adventures don't usually take place in open sunny fields.

It's a great thing because one feature offsets the penalty you normally have for having such great features.

Kobolds are amazing.

[kazaryu]

Grovel, Cower, and Beg, as you note, while mechanically potent, is thematically a roleplaying pigeonhole, as (barring refluffing) you either have to portray your kobold as a sniveling loser or not use one of your two powerful abilities.
.

this is very much not true. once again, even barring re-flavoring there's nothing in the ability that states your cowering need be genuine. in fact, the fact that its an active ability that you choose to do points more towards you deceptively using it as a distraction tactic.

the point being the character don't have to actually *be* a chicken ****. instead they have an ability that says 'if they *act* like a chicken-**** they give everyone else advantage.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Kobolds make great moon druids as wildshape make you loose your features that related to senses(like dark vision, sunlight sansetivity) but let you keep your other race features.
If you are also a front line mount you will always get advantage as there is someone on you.

[Dork_Forge]

You can definitely play one and have fun but as written they are at best inconsistent with 5e mechanics and at worst meaninglessly penalised with not enough benefits to actually get a net gain a lot of the time.

In my games I tend to 'fix' them by:

-remove the Str penalty and give them a +1 to Cha
-remove the sunlight senstivity
-reduce their speed to 25ft

This brings them more in line with what you'd expect from race in 5e and makes them more enjoyable in my experience.

I also give Deep Gnomes Sunlight Sensitivity because things should be consistent, not a game of favourites.

[TigerT20]

You can definitely play one and have fun but as written they are at best inconsistent with 5e mechanics and at worst meaninglessly penalised with not enough benefits to actually get a net gain a lot of the time.

In my games I tend to 'fix' them by:

-remove the Str penalty and give them a +1 to Cha
-remove the sunlight senstivity
-reduce their speed to 25ft

This brings them more in line with what you'd expect from race in 5e and makes them more enjoyable in my experience.

I also give Deep Gnomes Sunlight Sensitivity because things should be consistent, not a game of favourites.

What? But only the bad guys are weak to sunlight!

[chainer1216]

Kobolds aren't very good, but Orcs are worse. Thoough orcs have quite possibly the worst racials of all races. I think Kobolds are somewhere in the same tier as Goliaths - a little underwhelming, but still viable.

Orc player stats have been printed two more times in the Eberron book and the Wildemount book, they removed the stat penalties.

[Segev]

I am sympathetic to the design desire to give kobolds sunlight sensitivity and pack tactics, because those are about the only stand-out traits they have in the monster manual. Creatures lacking traits their race demonstrate when not PCs can be frustrating. Adding features is...less likely to raise a stink, but might still raise some eyebrows. "Wait, why can my kobold do XYZ for being a kobold, but none of the kobolds we ever encounter in the field can?"

I suppose it's really Grovel, Plead, and Beg and the -2 Str penalty that bothers me about them. Both FEEL like penalties, even though the former is actually a reasonably potent racial ability.

If you kept the base kobold stats as-is, and added this half-elf style alternate racial feature, would it be overpowered? (I know the aaracockra have only flight and a natural weapon.)

Urd: You're one of the rare kobolds blessed by Tiamat with wings. You have a flight speed of 30 ft. You never felt the need to cower on the ground to escape danger, so if you take this feature, you do not have Grovel, Plead, and Beg.


(I'd probably design some other alternate features to GPB, as well, but that's the most obvious one just using the MM as inspiration.)



On orcs, the thing that bothers me most about them is that half-orcs just plain have better features, and feel more orc-y in terms of toughness and might. I won't say Powerful Build isn't nice, but it's actually less "mighty" feeling than the resilience feature that lets half-orcs no-sell going to 0 hp at least once.

[Luccan]

I am sympathetic to the design desire to give kobolds sunlight sensitivity and pack tactics, because those are about the only stand-out traits they have in the monster manual. Creatures lacking traits their race demonstrate when not PCs can be frustrating. Adding features is...less likely to raise a stink, but might still raise some eyebrows. "Wait, why can my kobold do XYZ for being a kobold, but none of the kobolds we ever encounter in the field can?"

I suppose it's really Grovel, Plead, and Beg and the -2 Str penalty that bothers me about them. Both FEEL like penalties, even though the former is actually a reasonably potent racial ability.

If you kept the base kobold stats as-is, and added this half-elf style alternate racial feature, would it be overpowered? (I know the aaracockra have only flight and a natural weapon.)

Urd: You're one of the rare kobolds blessed by Tiamat with wings. You have a flight speed of 30 ft. You never felt the need to cower on the ground to escape danger, so if you take this feature, you do not have Grovel, Plead, and Beg.


(I'd probably design some other alternate features to GPB, as well, but that's the most obvious one just using the MM as inspiration.)



On orcs, the thing that bothers me most about them is that half-orcs just plain have better features, and feel more orc-y in terms of toughness and might. I won't say Powerful Build isn't nice, but it's actually less "mighty" feeling than the resilience feature that lets half-orcs no-sell going to 0 hp at least once.

I've considered offering Urd as an alternative feature before. I don't know how people feel about it with Pack Tactics, though. But just wings with negative stat adjustment and sunlight sensitivity seems much worse (whatever people may think about flying PCs)

[Segev]

I've considered offering Urd as an alternative feature before. I don't know how people feel about it with Pack Tactics, though. But just wings with negative stat adjustment and sunlight sensitivity seems much worse (whatever people may think about flying PCs)

In the vein of "playing the fantasy of the fiction," urds in the monster manual have pack tactics, so I am sympathetic to wanting it on the urd PC. It is why I leave the -2 Str in place. Flight AND a good feature (even if "counterebalanced" by a bad one) still probably needs a solid penalty. And since -2 strength reduces carry capacity, which is particularly important for fliers to track, it diminishes the utility of flight a bit.

[N810]

I'm picturing in my head, Dobby the kobold rogue thief, and it's glorious. :elan:

[MaxWilson]

I suspect the answer is "yes," but it's one of those things that I don't entirely trust myself on. In Volo's Guide, we get stats for Kobolds as PCable creatures. They are a rare case of a stat penalty (to strength) in 5e, and they have the negative racial trait of light-blindness (or whatever it's called; the drow have it in the core book. Basically, disadvantage on perception checks related to anything in bright light, or when they're in bright light). Their most notable - in terms of uniqueness, anyway - feature is literally being pathetic, which lets them give Advantage to allies by being a whiny distraction in front of enemies.

Is this feature - or anything else they get - so amazing that it justifies a stat penalty and a negative trait? I know the negative trait is on their monster entry, but that would seem reason to give them an actually cool feature. The fact their unique feature is one that makes them look as uncool as possible seems like a slap in the face to anybody who thinks there's potential flavor in the kobold.

But I am not always the best at recognizing potential. Is the kobold better than I think it is?

I won't be surprised to find out it's as bad as I think it is, but I wouldn't want to start speculating on improvements if it's already better than it looks to me.

The kobold is much better than you think because the Sunlight Sensitivity penalties only happen in sunlight, not bright light.

Is that enough to make it good? Eh, depends how easy it is for you to get advantage on ranged attacks from other things. In a certain kind of party, a kobold Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter could be amazing. In other kinds of parties, a kobold Moon Druid providing advantage to other PCs via Grovel could be pretty good, if maybe nonsensical against many enemies. The Strength penalty is fairly irrelevant to most builds you'd want to use kobolds for--you're not going to GWM a kobold anyway because they're Small-sized.

[Joe the Rat]

Having played a Kobold Warlock... they're team players. You are built to play well with others in combat.

Pack tactics is great for hitting things, better out of the sun, but adequate in the sun. It encourages you to soften up the guys your allies are engaged with.
...but as a caster my preference is to use save-based effects when sunlight is a problem.

GCB is fairly niche, as I try to avoid melee. But its come in handy in a pinch. On a rogue or monk, this would be better used thanks to disengage options. There are definite uses for a short-rest area-of-effect Help action.

I find the strength penalty annoying, but it's been with us since Dragon 141. The classic kobold spear is now a poorer option - slings and daggers and shortbows are the way now. Try to sell Mining as a Constitution-based activity. The penalty doesn't prevent you from pack-tac-ing a Longbow or Heavy Crossbow (Picture crossbow-as-arbalest, or a foot-bow)

[Segev]

I find the strength penalty annoying, but it's been with us since Dragon 141.

I only dispute the validity of this justification because strength penalties have been with a lot of races for a long time, but most don't retain them in 5e.

[MaxWilson]

I don't see how that's a good thing. Unless you love playing a character who can never get Advantage when outdoors. :smallconfused:

Unless it's nighttime, or rainy, or overcast, or in a forest... Sunlight sensitivity only hampers you when you or your target is in direct sunlight.

Is it a penalty? Yes. It means you will have trouble kiting enemies to death from 600' away in open terrain. You'll make a terrible Sharpshooter. It will even hamper you in some normal scenarios, like getting ambushed by bandits while travelling, though Pack Tactics may help to cancel it back out (or maybe you'll just Grovel to the bandits instead and let the other PCs do the shooting--probably depends on the details of the encounter setup and party composition).

It's a real penalty, but it's also a exaggeration though to say you can never get advantage while outdoors. It isn't nearly that bad. Here in Seattle you'd only have disadvantage while outdoors maybe 3% of the time. (I exaggerate. Seattle's not as bad as its reputation. Olympia however is. Seattle direct sunlight is probably closer to 15% of the time, due to winter overcast, nighttime, and trees.)

[Democratus]

Played a Kobold in "Out of the Abyss", which takes place entirely in the Underdark.

Was not disappointed. :)

[Throne12]

They are only bad or are so so if your playing a str based class.

A rapier and shield kobold paladin is just as good as a str SnB half orc paladin. They make good and cool monks I played a kobold shadow monk. Only class they cant be good in is a barbarian but if you roll for stats and get 16-18 your fine.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I only dispute the validity of this justification because strength penalties have been with a lot of races for a long time, but most don't retain them in 5e.

I'm the same way except they don't matter to the Kobold.

All the best classes can dump strength and it won't matter all that much.

Though, I would love to make a strength based kobold barbarian again... (4e was fun).

[nickl_2000]

I personally think that kobolds shine as Moon Druid. Many DMs will remove sunlight sensitivity because that is a physical trait (not sure on RAWa of that and please don't get into it here because it will completely derail this topic), and gaining advantage from Pack Tactics really helps those forms that have a poor attack bonus but hit really hard.

Bonus points if you are playing with another PC who has the Mounted Combatant feat and they are riding on top of you in beast form.

[Torpin]

like everything you just got to build it right. is a kobold going to be good in say a military campaign, maybe,but probably not, however im playing a kobold swashbuckler right now in an underdark campaign and i dont remember the last time i didnt have get to use sneak attack between pack tactics and rakish audacity. its supremely fun

[Luccan]

like everything you just got to build it right. is a kobold going to be good in say a military campaign, maybe,but probably not, however im playing a kobold swashbuckler right now in an underdark campaign and i dont remember the last time i didnt have get to use sneak attack between pack tactics and rakish audacity. its supremely fun

Sneak Attack already activates under the same conditions required for Pack Tactics

[Torpin]

Sneak Attack already activates under the same conditions required for Pack Tactics

pack tactics can also negate disadvantage

[stoutstien]

In all honestly, all the small races have pretty fantastic racial features to counter being wee folk. I don't know if could say kobolds are stronger than a F gnome or a ghostwise halfling.

[Sigreid]

The strength penalty and grovel really kind of tick me off so at our table we eliminated both.

[Luccan]

pack tactics can also negate disadvantage

Fair point

[Falconcry]

King Spurt would be very miffed at this topic. Long eleven days may he reig... nevermind

[pr4wn]

Kobolds are not a bad race at all. They are very niche though. Depending on the group, they can actually be a pretty strong character, and are great for adding levity if you are not set on the power gaming track. I've had a multiclass Gloom Stalker/Assassin Kobold that was very effective and a blast.

On the sillier side, a Conquest Paladin Kobold can be a riot. "I have the blood of dragons! Fear me!"

That being said, they are not a "good" race, and will probably never be the go to option. That doesn't make them bad, they just require you to be OK with going down a sub optimal road for the sake of story or fun.

-pr4wn

[Nagog]

Pack. Tactics.

Constant advantage against foes near an ally is extremely good. Works well on a ranged Rogue build, granting advantage in situations you're already trying to engineer for Sneak Attack, and cancelling out Sunlight Sensitivity if you happen to be in direct sunlight.

Yes, if you expect your campaign to involve lots and lots of combat in direct sunlight then it's a problem, but if not then its fine and easily worked around.

The strength penalty is annoying but as a small race you're unlikely to be playing a STR focused character anyway.

This is it. Pack Tactics is amazing for many builds, and the only thing I've seen that makes me want to play a Beast Master Ranger 3/Rogue X. Your beast can be a Wolf, which also has Pack Tactics, and since you're a small creature and Wolves are Medium, you can ride them as a mount. Attacking with advantage from your mount to deal Sneak Attack damage (preferably with Mobile), then keep going. Wonderful strafe/mount build that's also small enough to work indoors.

[Petrocorus]

I disagree with anybody saying the Kobolds are bad. They certainly are not the best race, but they are not bad at all.

Yes, they do force you into a dex build, but let's be honest, many (or even most) players choose their race after their main ability score.

The Kobolds are the only race with a ability penalty now that Orcs have been updated, they always were the only race with a total ability bonus of 0 and the only other races IIRC with Sunlight sensitivity has a double range darkvision. All this downsides are there to compensate for Pack Tactics.

And Pack Tactics is very good. It's amazing on a Rogue but good on any one who rely on attack rolls.

I actually runned a small campaign with a full kobold party. I even started them at basically level 0,5*. And my teen players managed to clear a level 1 dungeons full of gobs thank to Pack Tactics and their stealth. If i'd had allowed a single PC of a tanky race, it would probably have been easy for them.

*Basically MM kobolds but with PC abilities score, a couple more HP, a few proficiencies and equipments. Plus a light crossbow for everyone.


Unless it's nighttime, or rainy, or overcast, or in a forest... Sunlight sensitivity only hampers you when you or your target is in direct sunlight.

Is it a penalty? Yes. It means you will have trouble kiting enemies to death from 600' away in open terrain. You'll make a terrible Sharpshooter. It will even hamper you in some normal scenarios, like getting ambushed by bandits while travelling, though Pack Tactics may help to cancel it back out (or maybe you'll just Grovel to the bandits instead and let the other PCs do the shooting--probably depends on the details of the encounter setup and party composition).

This.
Though i could apply it in a forest if it's not dense enough and the Sun is right above them.
I had this debate elsewhere and looked at LMoP for reference. Sunlight sensitivity can easily be ignored in most of dungeons/encounters of this campaign, even during the day. Only Thundertree and Old Owl Well can be a problem if you don't do it at night. And random encounters.

[Theodoxus]

Sneak Attack already activates under the same conditions required for Pack Tactics

Yes, but pack tactics doesn't activate when facing a lone opponent sans an ally. So you don't get advantage. Rakish audacity makes up for that deficit by allowing you to still gain sneak attack against a solo opponent without the need for advantage.

Kobolds and swashbuckling are like chocolate and peanut butter.

@OP I've played a number of kobolds in AL. Started with a rogue, and it was as glorious as others have mentioned. Though it's easy to replicate with advantage with other races and grabbing an owl familiar (in whatever means you'd like), not having to worry about the DM targeting your pet (because you don't have one) is nice... but some DMs still find the 'always on' advantage annoying. They can't officially ban the race in AL, but they might make your life miserable.

My favorite character though was a monk. Whenever he'd get in over his head (more often than not, I played him pretty arrogant - the bastard son of a red dragon) - I'd whip out the Grovel maneuver and pop Patient Defense as my companions "rescued" me. Getting advantage on up to 4 attacks a round wasn't horrible either. If you're looking for something that can reliably hit, if not do a ton of damage, kobold isn't all that bad.

[RedMage125]

Just want to correct something in the OP:


Basically, disadvantage on perception checks related to anything in bright light, or when they're in bright light).

It's not "in bright light", but "in direct sunlight". The light from a torch, a lantern, and a Light spell are "bright light" and do not trigger the penalties.

Because of Sunlight Sensitivity, there are essentially 4 (or 5) categories of light for vision purposes:

Direct Sunlight
Bright Light
Dim Light
Darkness
Magical Darkness (since it works differently with darkvision).

When you compare the results vis a vis "Disadvantage" or "No Penalties" Creatures with Sunlight Sensitivity actually fare pretty well.

Anyway, my own input is this, I had a thread of it's own once.

So...for a long time now, I've toyed with the idea of playing a kobold paladin. The concept is of a diminutive little kobold who sees himself as a mighty and noble warrior of Bahamut, the Platinum Dragon. His personality is a little like Minsc from Baldur's Gate ("Butt-Kicking, for Goodness!"). He's cleaner than a lot of other kobolds, and he even keeps his scales polished to a metallic sheen, attempting to better resemble the metallic dragons that are Bahamut's children.

5th edition has kobolds be a little more playable than other editions. Some of the racial abilities I may want to re-flavor, like Grovel, Cower, and Beg. I'm thinking of re-flavoring that as him posturing and posing with his weapon, declaring to the enemy the righteous butt-kicking he is about to deliver, and the advantage for his allies stemming from humor instead of pity.

I think a Lawful Good Oath of Devotion Paladin fits the theme best. Especially for a character who tries SO HARD to be a valiant defender of light, justice, compassion, and honor. He is completely immune to the criticism and ridicule that he creates. The character concept is meant to be somewhat comical, but only from the outside. He maintains a sincere a steadfast adherence to living up to his goals, no matter how many times the forces of evil laugh at him.

Some of the mechanics I'd like some help with. I think the STR penalty means I'll want to stick with Finesse weapons and focus on DEX. But I still imagine him in medium armor at least, if not heavy. I'd like to try and get him a Dire Weasel for a mount eventually. But until he can get one, he'll probably have a pony.

Also still working on a name. I kind of like the idea that his name is kind of yappy. Like Tik-Snak. His name should be ridiculous and silly.

[Segev]

Just want to correct something in the OP:



It's not "in bright light", but "in direct sunlight". The light from a torch, a lantern, and a Light spell are "bright light" and do not trigger the penalties.

Because of Sunlight Sensitivity, there are essentially 4 (or 5) categories of light for vision purposes:

Direct Sunlight
Bright Light
Dim Light
Darkness
Magical Darkness (since it works differently with darkvision).

When you compare the results vis a vis "Disadvantage" or "No Penalties" Creatures with Sunlight Sensitivity actually fare pretty well.Good point on "direct sunlight" vs. "bright light." I was operating from memory when I wrote the opening post.

One thing that occurred to me after realizing this: a first level kobold sorcerer or wizard could cast fog cloud up in the sky to make his own cloud cover over himself and anybody he wants to target, making a shadowed area that still would qualify as "bright light" on the basis that even a gloomy day counts as bright light.


Some of the mechanics I'd like some help with. I think the STR penalty means I'll want to stick with Finesse weapons and focus on DEX. But I still imagine him in medium armor at least, if not heavy. I'd like to try and get him a Dire Weasel for a mount eventually. But until he can get one, he'll probably have a pony.

Also still working on a name. I kind of like the idea that his name is kind of yappy. Like Tik-Snak. His name should be ridiculous and silly.

I'm kind-of picturing a kobold version of Sir Didymus: https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/labyrinth/images/9/98/Labyrinth-sir-didymus-ambrosius.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/220?cb=20120105161410

You could probably buy a dire weasel for the price of a riding dog/mastiff, with DM permission. Or summon one with find steed, again with DM permission.

A rapier-wielding Three Musketeers-bravado paladin who appears clearly in over his head (sometimes literally) sounds delightfully silly. Even heavy armor shouldn't be an issue as long as he's got an 8+ strength. He's Small, so he has no size penalty to carrying capacity, meaning its 15x(Strength) in lbs. that he can carry. Even the heaviest armor is not 45 lbs., I believe, and that would be max carry weight for a 3 strength. I suppose you could technically roll a 3 and put it in Str for a total of 1, but you're pretty much asking for it at that point. You should be fine for your armor choice.

Carrying a shortbow would likely be ideal for a ranged weapon, but darts would also be feasible for a dex build. Just less range. A longbow, being Heavy, will always have Disadvantage, but you could use Pack Tactics to negate that, and the image of a kobold paladin wielding a bow literally taller than he is might fit the humor aesthetic.

If he can get minor illusion, possibly with Magic Initiate, he could decide that he needs to be larger and more imposing when shouting his challenge from a distance, so he creates a Medium-sized suit of illusory armor standing there looking imposing and shouts from it while hiding in a nearby bush. The fact that this also negates the disadvantage for shooting a Heavy weapon at long range by making him unseen might elude him; he thinks he's being upright and honorable rather than sneaky and sneak attacking, but gets the benefits all the same.

[Petrocorus]

One thing that occurred to me after realizing this: a first level kobold sorcerer or wizard could cast fog cloud up in the sky to make his own cloud cover over himself and anybody he wants to target, making a shadowed area that still would qualify as "bright light" on the basis that even a gloomy day counts as bright light.

Good idea.




I'm kind-of picturing a kobold version of Sir Didymus:

What is that????




You could probably buy a dire weasel for the price of a riding dog/mastiff, with DM permission. Or summon one with [I]find steed, again with DM permission.

A rapier-wielding Three Musketeers-bravado paladin who appears clearly in over his head (sometimes literally) sounds delightfully silly. Even heavy armor shouldn't be an issue as long as he's got an 8+ strength. He's Small, so he has no size penalty to carrying capacity, meaning its 15x(Strength) in lbs. that he can carry. Even the heaviest armor is not 45 lbs., I believe, and that would be max carry weight for a 3 strength. I suppose you could technically roll a 3 and put it in Str for a total of 1, but you're pretty much asking for it at that point. You should be fine for your armor choice.

All heavy armors beside ring mail have a Str requirement, that you won't meet easily.
And if RedMage125's table count carry capacity thoroughly, then even a 40 lbs armor is probably too much. The heaviest are actually 65 lbs.

Personally, i would forget about that and stick to a breastplate. That would be an AC of 18 with a shield and without disadvantage on stealth.
Quite good for a dex-focused character.



If he can get minor illusion, possibly with Magic Initiate
Indeed.
And so he could take GFB, or EB and Hex as his other MI's spells.
Or maybe Prestidigitation to always be clean as a real Paladin should be. :smallbiggrin:

[OldTrees1]

What is that????
That was a character from the movie Labyrinth: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091369/
It was a comical anthropomorphic dog knight riding a dog that was an ally of the protagonist.

[Segev]

That was a character from the movie Labyrinth: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091369/
It was a comical anthropomorphic dog knight riding a dog that was an ally of the protagonist.

Indeed. And the personality was very comedic-knightly. Friendly, but fierce. And courageous to the point of foolishness, kind of like a chihuahua. Would stand and fight against an army of ogres when he's a halfling-sized biped with a stiletto. And no demonstrably superhuman (or supercanine) skill. Not UNskilled, but not "anime protagonist who can crush you despite looking like a waif," either.

So the description of the kobold paladin reminded me of him a lot. Especially the modification to "Beg, Grovel, and Plead."

[MaxWilson]

That was a character from the movie Labyrinth: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091369/
It was a comical anthropomorphic dog knight riding a dog that was an ally of the protagonist.

Note: this is a dual of The Wizard of Oz. Instead of following a clear path along the Yellow Brick Road and meeting a scarecrow (no brains), tin man (no heart), and a lion (no courage), in that order, Sarah has to find her own way through the Labyrinth and meets Hoggle (all brains), Ludo (all heart), and Sir Didymus (all courage).

[Xetheral]

I played a Kobold Cleric/Fighter/Rogue from levels 5-20 in Dungeon of the Mad Mage. My character ended up being the primary tank, and did just fine. I found Pack Tactics to be extremely powerful; Grovel, Cover, and Beg to be occasionally useful; and the strength penalty to be irrelevant even before it was obviated by finding Gauntlets of Ogre Power.

[Willie the Duck]

Note: this is a dual of The Wizard of Oz. Instead of following a clear path along the Yellow Brick Road and meeting a scarecrow (no brains), tin man (no heart), and a lion (no courage), in that order, Sarah has to find her own way through the Labyrinth and meets Hoggle (all brains), Ludo (all heart), and Sir Didymus (all courage).

Thumbs up or other indicator of approval.

[RedMage125]

Good point on "direct sunlight" vs. "bright light." I was operating from memory when I wrote the opening post.

One thing that occurred to me after realizing this: a first level kobold sorcerer or wizard could cast fog cloud up in the sky to make his own cloud cover over himself and anybody he wants to target, making a shadowed area that still would qualify as "bright light" on the basis that even a gloomy day counts as bright light.
Well, yes, but one other thing I was saying was compare how a "no darkvision" race, a darkvision race, and darkvision with Sunlight Sensitivity contrast to all 5 light source categories.

No darkvision
Direct Sunlight - No penalties
Bright Light - No penalties
Dim Light - Disadvantage
Darkness - Blind
Magical Darkness - Blind

Regular Darkvision
DS- No penalties
BL- No penalties
DL - No panalties
D - Disadvantage
MD - Blind

Darkvision with SS
DS - Disadvantage
BL - No penalties
DL - No penalties
D - Disadvantage
MD - Blind

So...if you just want to eliminate Magical Darkness as a concern, because that screws over everyone, Having Darkvision with SS is still better than not having darkvision. And "Direct Sunlight" is a very specific lighting condition that can be circumnavigated by being indoors or under a forest canopy, even.




I'm kind-of picturing a kobold version of Sir Didymus:
You could probably buy a dire weasel for the price of a riding dog/mastiff, with DM permission. Or summon one with find steed, again with DM permission.

A rapier-wielding Three Musketeers-bravado paladin who appears clearly in over his head (sometimes literally) sounds delightfully silly. Even heavy armor shouldn't be an issue as long as he's got an 8+ strength. He's Small, so he has no size penalty to carrying capacity, meaning its 15x(Strength) in lbs. that he can carry. Even the heaviest armor is not 45 lbs., I believe, and that would be max carry weight for a 3 strength. I suppose you could technically roll a 3 and put it in Str for a total of 1, but you're pretty much asking for it at that point. You should be fine for your armor choice.

Carrying a shortbow would likely be ideal for a ranged weapon, but darts would also be feasible for a dex build. Just less range. A longbow, being Heavy, will always have Disadvantage, but you could use Pack Tactics to negate that, and the image of a kobold paladin wielding a bow literally taller than he is might fit the humor aesthetic.

Well, I should have linked the entire thread, because one thing I clarified over on it was that this character is not meant to be played as some kind of clown. What makes him funny is that he gets played entirely straight. Someone on that thread compared him to Don Quixote, which is a pretty valid comparison. All the humor of this character will be unintentional (as far as character choices go), and will be simply a result of him acting like he's a noble, respected, and valiant knight. Basically, he completely ignores (and acts oblivious to) the fact that so many people laugh at him. His voice is high-pitched and squeaky by virtue of being a kobold. What comes out of his mouth would make Minsc very proud.

Oh, and I eventually decided to stick with a pony for his mount. It's name is Indomitable.

[Segev]

Well, yes, but one other thing I was saying was compare how a "no darkvision" race, a darkvision race, and darkvision with Sunlight Sensitivity contrast to all 5 light source categories.

No darkvision
Direct Sunlight - No penalties
Bright Light - No penalties
Dim Light - Disadvantage
Darkness - Blind
Magical Darkness - Blind

Regular Darkvision
DS- No penalties
BL- No penalties
DL - No panalties
D - Disadvantage
MD - Blind

Darkvision with SS
DS - Disadvantage
BL - No penalties
DL - No penalties
D - Disadvantage
MD - Blind

So...if you just want to eliminate Magical Darkness as a concern, because that screws over everyone, Having Darkvision with SS is still better than not having darkvision. And "Direct Sunlight" is a very specific lighting condition that can be circumnavigated by being indoors or under a forest canopy, even.Yes and no. There is no non-magical way to mitigate or eliminate direct sunlight that doesn't require construction project levels of time and resources and/or isn't otherwise impractical. A simple torch lets a creature without darkvision see in nonmagical darkness.



Well, I should have linked the entire thread, because one thing I clarified over on it was that this character is not meant to be played as some kind of clown. What makes him funny is that he gets played entirely straight. Someone on that thread compared him to Don Quixote, which is a pretty valid comparison. All the humor of this character will be unintentional (as far as character choices go), and will be simply a result of him acting like he's a noble, respected, and valiant knight. Basically, he completely ignores (and acts oblivious to) the fact that so many people laugh at him. His voice is high-pitched and squeaky by virtue of being a kobold. What comes out of his mouth would make Minsc very proud.

Oh, and I eventually decided to stick with a pony for his mount. It's name is Indomitable.
I'm guessing you've never seen Labyrinth. I do recommend it; it's a good movie.

Sir Didymus is played straight as a nail. And subtly as the hammer that drives it in. The humor comes from the fact that reality doesn't bend to his will, and while he's not inept at fighting, he's tiny and weak and so he doesn't cut the unmovable figure he presents. He is as noble, and serious about his noble aims, as any paladin could hope to be. The humor comes from exactly what you described, I think.

[NaughtyTiger]

Note: this is a dual of The Wizard of Oz. Instead of following a clear path along the Yellow Brick Road and meeting a scarecrow (no brains), tin man (no heart), and a lion (no courage), in that order, Sarah has to find her own way through the Labyrinth and meets Hoggle (all brains), Ludo (all heart), and Sir Didymus (all courage).

i never would have put all that together. thank you for that.

[RedMage125]

Yes and no. There is no non-magical way to mitigate or eliminate direct sunlight that doesn't require construction project levels of time and resources and/or isn't otherwise impractical. A simple torch lets a creature without darkvision see in nonmagical darkness.

Look, I was just making that list to show that Sunlight Sensitivity is not as crippling as some make it seem. That, and only that, was my point.




I'm guessing you've never seen Labyrinth. I do recommend it; it's a good movie.

Sir Didymus is played straight as a nail. And subtly as the hammer that drives it in. The humor comes from the fact that reality doesn't bend to his will, and while he's not inept at fighting, he's tiny and weak and so he doesn't cut the unmovable figure he presents. He is as noble, and serious about his noble aims, as any paladin could hope to be. The humor comes from exactly what you described, I think.

I have seen it...years ago. I remember very little other than the British Blue Caterpillar and David Bowie's overly-tight pants (one might even call them "pants, magic pants").

If I was unclear, my comment about playing him straight was more in reference to what you said about "going for a humor aesthetic" vis the longbow and such. He is not "going for the humor aesthetic", but rather, by virtue of being completely serious, will be funny.

[Segev]

Look, I was just making that list to show that Sunlight Sensitivity is not as crippling as some make it seem. That, and only that, was my point.It's not crippling, no. It's just Disadvantage. It's annoying, though, because there's nothing the player can do about it without some very specific magic. Not disputing your point, just explaining why it comes off as worse even if it isn't, not by much.





I have seen it...years ago. I remember very little other than the British Blue Caterpillar and David Bowie's overly-tight pants (one might even call them "pants, magic pants").Ah, yes, his uncredited co-star. *cough* A little disturbing the first time you notice it, and realize you can't UNsee it.


If I was unclear, my comment about playing him straight was more in reference to what you said about "going for a humor aesthetic" vis the longbow and such. He is not "going for the humor aesthetic", but rather, by virtue of being completely serious, will be funny.Ah, fair enough. Yeah, nothing about Sir Didymus was comedic in the things he had an active choice over, save the entire premise of a noble and valiant warrior who...really is physically unsuited for the role.

[N810]

Couldn't your kabold just wear like a giant sombrero or something so he wouldn't be in bright sun ? :elan:

[Joe the Rat]

Couldn't your kabold just wear like a giant sombrero or something so he wouldn't be in bright sun ? :elan:Only if it were big enough to cover whatever he is attacking as well

[Petrocorus]

Only if it were big enough to cover whatever he is attacking as well

However, i do imagine a DM allowing a "Goggle of Day" magic item that cancel sunlight sensitivity. Since this flaw is share by the Dark Elves and they are the kind of people who could want to invent it.

[NaughtyTiger]

However, i do imagine a DM allowing a "Goggle of Day" magic item that cancel sunlight sensitivity. Since this flaw is share by the Dark Elves and they are the kind of people who could want to invent it.

one of the adventurer league modules awarded that ...

[Benny89]

IMO they are great. Direct Sunlight doesn't happen that often. How many times adventures take places in forgotten Temples, at night, in dungeons, tombs, castles, forest, misty mountains, rainy days etc. Direct Sunlight is not really that bad.

But pack tactics combines with DEX-Paladin/Hexblade is money. Warlock who can attack with both advantage and Hex on target? XBE Battlemaster Fighter with advantage on top of Precision strikes? Arcane Trickster with Booming Blade and Haste who also have advantage? XBE Whisper Bard/Hexblade with free advantage, while focusing on Haste or Holy Weapon? Articifer Battlesmith who has access to easy advantage? Pact tactics are just great.

-2 STR hardly matters for many builds. And with Pact Tactics in worst case scenario (direct sunlight) you just roll normally.

[Petrocorus]

one of the adventurer league modules awarded that ...

May we know more about this? Like the name of the module, if you remember it?

[Daghoulish]

May we know more about this? Like the name of the module, if you remember it?

I know in Waterdeep Dragon Heist there is a drow mercanary that has an eyepatch that negates sunlight sensitivity. It's called Knave's Eye Patch on page 191. Here are the properties.

Rare (Requires Attunement)
While wearing this eye patch, you gain these benefits:
You have advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
If you have the Sunlight Sensitivity trait, you are unaffected by the trait.
You are immune to magic that allows other creatures to read your thoughts or determine whether you are lying. Creatures can communicate telepathically with you only if you allow it.

[NaughtyTiger]

I know in Waterdeep Dragon Heist there is a drow mercanary that has an eyepatch that negates sunlight sensitivity. It's called Knave's Eye Patch on page 191. Here are the properties.

Rare (Requires Attunement)
While wearing this eye patch, you gain these benefits:
You have advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
If you have the Sunlight Sensitivity trait, you are unaffected by the trait.
You are immune to magic that allows other creatures to read your thoughts or determine whether you are lying. Creatures can communicate telepathically with you only if you allow it.

thanks for digging that up.

[RedMage125]

Ah, yes, his uncredited co-star. *cough* A little disturbing the first time you notice it, and realize you can't UNsee it.


LOL.

To this day, my wife swears that David Bowie's junk in those pants was so prominent, so...borderline traumatic, that whenever she thinks of that movie or is reminded of it, that comes to mind.

[Nod_Hero]

On the sillier side, a Conquest Paladin Kobold can be a riot. "I have the blood of dragons! Fear me!"


Funny you should mention that, here's a homebrewed feat (why should Dragonborn get all the fun?) we have in one of our campaigns;

Kobold Ancestral Roar
Prerequisites: Kobold

In every kobold tribe, the legend of their dragon ancestor's origin is passed down from elder to hatchling, giving each individual and every generation a reason to feel pride and self-respect. The kobolds prefer to run away than fight, to live off the scraps of others, and they are often dominated by larger humanoids, but they know that there is greatness within them and they are proud that they were chosen to be the blood-kin of dragons.
* Increase your Dexterity, Constitution, or Charisma by 1, to a maximum of 20.
* When angered, you can use your ancestral knowledge to inspire yourself to roar, forcing each creature of your choice within 30 feet of you to make a Wisdom saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier). A target automatically succeeds on the save if it can't hear or see you. On a failed save, a target becomes frightened of you for 1 minute. If the frightened target takes any damage, it can repeat the saving throw, ending the effect on itself on a success. Once you roar, you must finish a short or long rest before you can draw from that ancestral knowledge for inspiration again.

[DigoDragon]

I'll chime in to say that my experience with playing a kobold is that they're pretty decent mechanically if you know how to work in their pack tactics. Grab a ranged weapon or spell and have fun hitting most of the time. The cower ability is good and there's no reason you couldn't re-flavor it as something else (my DM let me rename mine 'Dragon roar'; my kobold shouts a high-pitched scream that is very annoying and distracting).

I am a little disappointed that kobolds don't get a Cha bonus, but I haven't found it to be a game breaker.