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virtualslayer22
2020-04-08, 08:14 AM
I am in the middle of my first campaign. I'm playing a level 3 drow AT that is incredibly fun, but I am still learning how to play him uniquely. The party has two characters with very high CHA (each 20), but for some reason, they continually defer to me to be the face of the party, which makes things harder as my character develops.

Stats:
Str: 12
Dex: 18
Con: 16
Int: 18
Wis: 15
Cha: 18

Expertise: SoH/Stealth; Proficiency in Inv, Ins, Perc, Athl
Cantrips: BB, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion
Spells: Find Familiar, Hideous Laughter, Grease

I'm stuck because I think I want to multiclass into Wizard, but can't decide when or if it’s a good idea? What would be the best route? Should I take a feat at Level 4 (crossbow expertise or drow high magic are my top choices). Should I take the ASI and get my Dex or Int up to 20? Or should I go ahead and make the dip into Wizard?

nickl_2000
2020-04-08, 08:21 AM
I am in the middle of my first campaign. I'm playing a level 3 drow AT that is incredibly fun, but I am still learning how to play him uniquely. The party has two characters with very high CHA (each 20), but for some reason, they continually defer to me to be the face of the party, which makes things harder as my character develops.

Stats:
Str: 12
Dex: 18
Con: 16
Int: 18
Wis: 15
Cha: 18

Expertise: SoH/Stealth; Proficiency in Inv, Ins, Perc, Athl
Cantrips: BB, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion
Spells: Find Familiar, Hideous Laughter, Grease

I'm stuck because I think I want to multiclass into Wizard, but can't decide when or if it’s a good idea? What would be the best route? Should I take a feat at Level 4 (crossbow expertise or drow high magic are my top choices). Should I take the ASI and get my Dex or Int up to 20? Or should I go ahead and make the dip into Wizard?


Rogue has breakpoints all over the place for going into another class. So, you can do whatever you want there. Personally, I would get to level 4, 5, 7, or 9 in AT before I go into Rogue.

Level 4 gives you an ASI for +2 dex. That gives you +1 to hit, +1 to damage, +1 AC, and +1 to your primary skills. Maxing Dex on a rogue is absolutely gold.

Level 5 gives you uncanny dodge which can nearly double your HP.

Level 7 is evasion. If you have a sorcerer slinging AoE spells all the time this is absolutely amazing!

Level 9 is magical ambush. Disadvantage on the save from a spell when they can't see you? Absolutely amazing!


It would depend on your party for when you I would grab some levels is Wizard. If you don't have someone who plans on slinging fireballs all over the place, I would go AT 4/Wizard 2 then AT to 9 and Wizard for the rest. If someone is slinging fireballs all over the place AT 7 then Wizard.

Deathtongue
2020-04-08, 09:02 AM
I'm stuck because I think I want to multiclass into Wizard, but can't decide when or if it’s a good idea? What would be the best route? Should I take a feat at Level 4 (crossbow expertise or drow high magic are my top choices). Should I take the ASI and get my Dex or Int up to 20? Or should I go ahead and make the dip into Wizard?

With your stats, you can absolutely make a dip into Wizard work. Since you already have an 18 INT and DEX, if you want to go that route you can delay maxing your ASIs.

Assuming you have access to the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide and Xanathar's, here's what you get with three levels of wizard:

1) A buttload of additional spells known. Arcane Trickster gets spells, too, but they really feel the pinch. And there are a lot of very good 1st and 2nd-level wizard spells you want: Detect Magic, Shield, Absorb Elements, Shadow Blade, Protection from Evil and Good, Misty Step, and even Mage Armor. Hell, if you ever get Magical Ambush you even have Darkness.

2) Since you're a drow, you can easily take the Bladesinger subclass. With your stats this is an OMG good option. You get a titanic bonus to defense that will pretty much be available for every challenging encounter.

3) The Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade cantrips. These cantrips will patch up the drop in offense you get from delaying sneak attack progression very nicely.

4) Minor Illusion and Cunning Action go together like peanut butter and jelly.

5) Arcane Recovery. Two extra 1st-level spells in a day will really help your durability. Uncanny Dodge is very, very good and will probably be your go-to, but having the option to tag in Shield or even Absorb Elements (lol Cone of Cold) will get you very far.

Bobthewizard
2020-04-08, 09:05 AM
If you want to multi class into wizard, the sooner you do it the better. You already have cunning action from rogue, which is its best ability. The longer you wait, the farther behind you'll be in spell casting. My preference for a rogue/wizard is to switch to wizard after rogue 2. I'd get to wizard 5 or 6, then decide if you want to stay wizard or return to rogue.

With those great stats, getting your first ASI isn't as important.
Uncanny dodge competes with the shield spell. Not sure you need both.
Evasion is great, but at that point I'd just stick with Arcane Trickster.

virtualslayer22
2020-04-08, 09:06 AM
Rogue has breakpoints all over the place for going into another class. So, you can do whatever you want there. Personally, I would get to level 4, 5, 7, or 9 in AT before I go into Rogue.

Level 4 gives you an ASI for +2 dex. That gives you +1 to hit, +1 to damage, +1 AC, and +1 to your primary skills. Maxing Dex on a rogue is absolutely gold.

Level 5 gives you uncanny dodge which can nearly double your HP.

Level 7 is evasion. If you have a sorcerer slinging AoE spells all the time this is absolutely amazing!

Level 9 is magical ambush. Disadvantage on the save from a spell when they can't see you? Absolutely amazing!


It would depend on your party for when you I would grab some levels is Wizard. If you don't have someone who plans on slinging fireballs all over the place, I would go AT 4/Wizard 2 then AT to 9 and Wizard for the rest. If someone is slinging fireballs all over the place AT 7 then Wizard.

This is great input! Thanks!

I was leaning towards staying Rogue until 5th level because of those perks. Uncanny dodge would be fantastic since my AC is only 16 right now (17 if I go +2 Dex). But I guess my other thing is that sometimes I feel a bit limited by only being able to attack once from range, which is why Crossbow Expert is enticing. Plus it would make any ranged spells within 5 feet to not be at disadvantage. I didn't think I'd have such a hard time deciding on how to level up

nickl_2000
2020-04-08, 09:33 AM
This is great input! Thanks!

I was leaning towards staying Rogue until 5th level because of those perks. Uncanny dodge would be fantastic since my AC is only 16 right now (17 if I go +2 Dex). But I guess my other thing is that sometimes I feel a bit limited by only being able to attack once from range, which is why Crossbow Expert is enticing. Plus it would make any ranged spells within 5 feet to not be at disadvantage. I didn't think I'd have such a hard time deciding on how to level up

I get the advantage of two attacks to get sneak attack off, but what spells are you casting that make a ranged spell attack really? You are a rogue, your bread and butter is sneak attack damage. Ranged attack spells don't allow sneak attack damage like a crossbow does.

Don't get me wrong, crossbow expert is good on a rogue. However, with the fact that you already have booming blade I would think you would be using melee attacks way more often.

Whit
2020-04-08, 10:17 AM
My view. You have to think why you went rogue in the first place, was it to get extra skills or to get sneak attack or to get the basic rogue level additions.

Then You have to decide why you went arcane trickster. Was it for the level 3,9, etc

Now that can help you choose where you want to go at what level.

If you’re going wizard, then ask yourself why? What spells are you looking to get and what level you want to go to.

virtualslayer22
2020-04-08, 10:27 AM
With your stats, you can absolutely make a dip into Wizard work. Since you already have an 18 INT and DEX, if you want to go that route you can delay maxing your ASIs.

Assuming you have access to the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide and Xanathar's, here's what you get with three levels of wizard:

1) A buttload of additional spells known. Arcane Trickster gets spells, too, but they really feel the pinch. And there are a lot of very good 1st and 2nd-level wizard spells you want: Detect Magic, Shield, Absorb Elements, Shadow Blade, Protection from Evil and Good, Misty Step, and even Mage Armor. Hell, if you ever get Magical Ambush you even have Darkness.

2) Since you're a drow, you can easily take the Bladesinger subclass. With your stats this is an OMG good option. You get a titanic bonus to defense that will pretty much be available for every challenging encounter.

3) The Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade cantrips. These cantrips will patch up the drop in offense you get from delaying sneak attack progression very nicely.

4) Minor Illusion and Cunning Action go together like peanut butter and jelly.

5) Arcane Recovery. Two extra 1st-level spells in a day will really help your durability. Uncanny Dodge is very, very good and will probably be your go-to, but having the option to tag in Shield or even Absorb Elements (lol Cone of Cold) will get you very far.

Yes, I have access to pretty much everything as I subscribe. The spells were a main draw. Although when I toyed with it, I was disappointed to see I only had 3 spell slots at 3 RogAT and 1 Wiz. I know the slots will come over time though. Also the ritual spell casting is nice. I would ideally switch FF to a ritual spell (then take Detect Magic and maybe Identify or Illusory Script as a 3rd ritual), so that if he ever bites the dust I can easily conjure another without the spell slot wasted - but I hope I don't ever have to summon another one as I am quite fond of my first buddy.

I would love Detect Magic as an at-will, which is the main reason I liked the High Drow Magic feat. That and levitate to take someone out of combat. And I am greatly looking forward to darkness. I actually have a magic amulet that allows me to cast shield once per long rest already.

I definitely want to be able to control the combat areas more. Would it be better to dip sooner and save the ASI/feat choice for a future level up?

virtualslayer22
2020-04-08, 10:31 AM
My view. You have to think why you went rogue in the first place, was it to get extra skills or to get sneak attack or to get the basic rogue level additions.

Then You have to decide why you went arcane trickster. Was it for the level 3,9, etc

Now that can help you choose where you want to go at what level.

If you’re going wizard, then ask yourself why? What spells are you looking to get and what level you want to go to.

I went Rogue simply because I always wanted to play one. I have always loved sneak attack and their utility out of combat even, which is what mine has turned into. The additions are nice, but I also know we wont get to super high levels, so at a certain point they become moot. I went Trickster for the spell aspect. I love the idea of a rogue pulling things out of his sleeve if you will during combat to surprise and gain the advantage on enemies. Throwing crazy combos or control effects is a really cool concept

Deathtongue
2020-04-08, 10:38 AM
I definitely want to be able to control the combat areas more. Would it be better to dip sooner and save the ASI/feat choice for a future level up?With your stats, absolutely. Pure Bladesingers can expect to see an 18/18 split in DEX and CON at character level 8, minimum, and realistically more like level 12.

virtualslayer22
2020-04-08, 10:39 AM
If you want to multi class into wizard, the sooner you do it the better. You already have cunning action from rogue, which is its best ability. The longer you wait, the farther behind you'll be in spell casting. My preference for a rogue/wizard is to switch to wizard after rogue 2. I'd get to wizard 5 or 6, then decide if you want to stay wizard or return to rogue.

With those great stats, getting your first ASI isn't as important.
Uncanny dodge competes with the shield spell. Not sure you need both.
Evasion is great, but at that point I'd just stick with Arcane Trickster.

I do want more spell slots, but I also would like to keep the rogue characteristics as the main personality for this character.

I was of the mindset that an ASI right now isn't as important given my stats, but its good to hear that from others. The guys in my group are all about +5, but none are big believers in feats or multiclassing so they just think I'm annoying. I'm just stuck on when to dip I guess. This helps a lot though, thanks!

saucerhead
2020-04-08, 10:54 AM
I would second the idea of going Bladesinger if you are just dipping into wizard for a couple levels. It will help with your AC and up your ability to hold concentration by +4 whenever you start using bladesong. Even if you are think of more than just a dip, say 6 levels in wizard, you will get a second attack and reach third level spells much quicker. Then you can level rogue for the sneak attack, evasion, etc.

The question you need to figure out first, before MC wizard, is do you see your character solving/doing stuff with skills or magic more? You can be really good at one, or okay at both. (With your stats, you could be good at both, but usually one or the other, skills or magic, tend to be the focus.)

Don't let the party stick you with being the face. Rogues stay I the background. :smallsmile:

Bobthewizard
2020-04-08, 10:57 AM
I went Rogue simply because I always wanted to play one. I have always loved sneak attack and their utility out of combat even, which is what mine has turned into. The additions are nice, but I also know we wont get to super high levels, so at a certain point they become moot. I went Trickster for the spell aspect. I love the idea of a rogue pulling things out of his sleeve if you will during combat to surprise and gain the advantage on enemies. Throwing crazy combos or control effects is a really cool concept

It sounds to me like you should just stay rogue for now and add the drow magic feat. You'll have plenty to do in and out of combat and it will let you see how the class progresses.

Between Arcane Trickster, Drow base spells and Drow high magic, you have a pretty good spellcaster while still keeping the Rogue's progression. So that's Dancing Lights and Detect Magic at will; Faerie Fire, Darkness, Levitate and Dispel Magic each once per day; and the Arcane Trickster spells. That's pretty great for 4th level.

You could dip wizard for 2-5 levels at any point after that if you want.

virtualslayer22
2020-04-08, 10:57 AM
I get the advantage of two attacks to get sneak attack off, but what spells are you casting that make a ranged spell attack really? You are a rogue, your bread and butter is sneak attack damage. Ranged attack spells don't allow sneak attack damage like a crossbow does.

Don't get me wrong, crossbow expert is good on a rogue. However, with the fact that you already have booming blade I would think you would be using melee attacks way more often.

This is a good point! I forgot that sneak attack doesn't apply to ranged magic. I'm still learning the ropes. I got caught up in the nixing of disadvantage. All I have is Chromatic Orb, but I don't use it often. I use Booming Blade mostly.

Segev
2020-04-08, 11:58 AM
4) Minor Illusion and Cunning Action go together like peanut butter and jelly.


I'm not disputing this so much as not seeing this. I suppose you could make a hiding spot, then hide in it, but...is there something I'm missing that makes this even better?

Lyracian
2020-04-08, 12:33 PM
I went Rogue simply because I always wanted to play one. I have always loved sneak attack and their utility out of combat even, which is what mine has turned into. The additions are nice, but I also know we wont get to super high levels, so at a certain point they become moot. I went Trickster for the spell aspect. I love the idea of a rogue pulling things out of his sleeve if you will during combat to surprise and gain the advantage on enemies. Throwing crazy combos or control effects is a really cool concept
For me the answer depends on
1. are you wanting to be a Wizard with a little bit of Rogue or a Rogue with a little bit of extra magic?
2. What level will the campaign go to and how quickly are you progressing?

If the game is going to go to level 20 with Epic final battles then I want 18 Levels of Wizard if that is my primary. If I am mostly Rogue then somewhere between 15-18 Levels of Rogue and a few levels are Wizard is good. Personally I really like getting Wisdom save at 15. Also remember that you round down Rogue levels when working out your combines spell caster level.

1 Level of Wizard gets you a whole host of spells and most of the Ritual Caster Feat until you get to higher levels.
2 Levels gives you a subclass. Diviner and Bladesinger are both good choices but you will never gain level 4 spells.
3-5 Levels of Wizard gives you more spell slots & spells known but you are giving up Sneak Attack and Rogue features.

Segev
2020-04-08, 01:18 PM
This is strictly my personal taste, not a hard optimization analysis, but I would, unless I didn't want to run wizard, just run wizard all the way after either Rogue 3 or Rogue 4. Arcane Trickster gets you invisible mage hand, which is really cool. Rogue 4 gets you a feat. If you can wait on the feat, though, I just don't see a lot of attraction to things you get from Rogue past level 3. They're not bad, but they're less to my taste. I like casters. But a rogue-y caster with Expertise, Cunning Action, and the upgraded mage hand that can be used with Cunning Action is a nice addition to a wizard's overall build, and running wizard will still probably never shake the rogue-y feel you started with.

Again, personal taste, but I'd go Illusionist, too, myself. Even though now it's going to be level 9 or 10 before you get Malleable Illusions, it'll still be a fun build, and if anybody can find use for both sound and image from minor illusion, it's an arcane trickster.

Diviner's Portent is pretty awesome, too, though.

The reasons, to me, to run rogue at this point are that you are already into spellcasting, so wizard just accelerates that, and what you get from rogue is sooner access to a feat, and more sneak attack. I'm not so enthused by most of the higher level rogue or even Arcane Trickster features, but they're not BAD...I just don't have a synergistic use for them towards a technique or schtick that appeals to me. You might!

MrStabby
2020-04-08, 02:58 PM
May I ask why you want wizard?

It's not a bad choice at all. It's great... but you also have the stats to multiclass into druid, cleric, warlock, bard and sorcerer. Sure, cleric and druid have to be a bit more support focussed due to lower casting stats but spells like bless are not bad at all.

Bard can advance your spells and still progress picking up more skills and expertise. There are some good bard spells not on the wizard list and many of them can be quite thematic for an arcane trickster. If you go a bit deep into the class you can pick up things like second attack and uses of bardic inspiration that are both awesome and dont interfere with your bonus actions.

Sorcerer does not get any new spells (or nothing worthwhile) but does get meta magic. Subtle spell on an arcane trickster is great fun. Twin booming blade when you can add a sneak attack on one is also awesome. Worth considering at least?

Warlock is another great one. Lots more spell slots to use and when you get magical ambush you will really appreciate it. The invocations are one of the main things that sets it apart. Even a small dip can get you mask of many faces and devils sight - really adding to your infiltration abilities, a core thing an AT should be good at. Even hex is good for sneaking past people by giving them disadvantage on wisdom checks.

Cleric and druid more emphatically change the flavour. Trickster cleric seems a good fit thematically but the overlap is such that I am not sure it is needed. Mainly these can be a bit more of a support role. Wild shape is also nice to have for infiltration. It is worth bearing in mind that low level healing is still pretty powerful, just for picking up the fallen. A single level for 7 extra spells known is not bad. Extra shout out for knowledge cleric for more expertise if you want to give down the skill monkey route.

I am not saying you shouldn't do wizard. Not at all. Just make sure you are getting the most fun out of this you can - you have awesome stats, why not have an unusual multiclass that benefits from them?

As to levels... get magical ambush fast. It is awesome. I might consider a dip of one level of another class along the way to establish your theme, but otherwise go pretty fast for that.

Sorinth
2020-04-08, 03:23 PM
Given how ridiculous stats have you considered Warlock instead of Wizard?

You mentioned wanting to detect magic at will which can be done via Eldritch Sight invocation, you'll no doubt find uses for Mask of Many Faces, Devil's Sight, even Misty Visions if you like illusions. Pact of the Tome gives you the rituals you want.

RP wise it makes for a cool concept, your the classic lazy rogue who steals because it's easier then working hard at a honest living. You pick up a bit of magic from your travels which is super useful since it makes everything even easier for you. But at some point you, probably after facing a very difficult encounter you decide you need more power and spending years studying magic isn't going to cut it, so you do what you always do and take the easy path to power by making a deal and going Warlock.

Grab a few levels of Warlock to get Invocations, and then see whether it would be more useful for better spells or more Sneak Attack.

Keravath
2020-04-08, 03:53 PM
Are you mostly a ranged or melee rogue?
Do you want to focus on the rogue aspect or the casting aspect?

With your stats there are many multiclass combinations that work well.

1) Bladesinger wizard/ AT

This can go a number of ways ...
- Bladesinger 2 for bladesong and 2 levels of wizard - a bit better spell progression and bladesong
- Bladesinger 6 for extra attack - if you are focusing on melee or even ranged rogue this is probably as far as you want to take wizard (though you might go to 7 for 4th level spells). You'll have a decent selection of spells by 6th level including most of the most useful rituals.

However, these options are usually most useful on a melee AT. If you are ranged you will usually be staying at a distance anyway so the benefits of bladesinger are less useful (though extra attack at 6 does fit very well and you get a number of good support spells). You could look at a dip into other wizard types. A couple of levels of wizard gives you the level 2 ability along with a bunch of first level spells and ritual casting (which makes summoning up a replacement familiar less costly in spell slots for example).

- Bladesinger 17 for 9th level spells - in this case you have AT 3 for the rogue archetype abilities and being an 18th level spell caster at the end. This is mostly a wizard though and plays like one. If you wanted to melee you'd probably use shadow blade.

2) As the poster above mentioned, warlock could be a very good choice too for either a ranged or a melee rogue.

- 2 levels of warlock gives you a lot of benefits, a couple of extra short rest spell slots, additional spells and two invocations - I find devils sight to be an awesome ability for a rogue since otherwise you will have disadvantage on perception checks in the dark if you are just using darkvision. Devils sight makes finding traps and hidden doors much more reliable.
- If you choose blade pact, 3 levels gives you the option for improved pact weapon which allows you to use a bow and 5 levels has the option for thirsting blade for two attacks. Three levels also lets you pick up the darkness spell.

Darkness + devils sight is a great way for a drow to escape the limitations of sunlight sensitivity. If you are outdoors during the daytime, normally all your attacks would be at disadvantage. However, with a darkness spell and devils sight you can block the sunlight with the darkness while still being able to see out. It is like creating your own area of very intense shade :).

If you go with a hexblade patron you will pick up the shield spell and hex can compensate for losing a d6 in sneak attack.

(I have an level 17 character 12 AT rogue/5 fey bladelock that has been loads of fun to play. I went with a fey warlock for roleplay reasons).


--------

Finally, you only listed 6 skills. If you are using the stats for a drow from the players handbook you are missing one.
All elves get Perception skill automatically + 2 background + 4 rogue ... which is 7 and you only listed 6. If you are missing one I would strongly suggest picking up persuasion since it goes really well with your high charisma and at level 6 you can take expertise in it which will make your character very good at talking to NPCs which sounds like a role you are having to pick up anyway.

virtualslayer22
2020-04-08, 07:53 PM
I have thought about the other classes as well. Our group has a Warlock, Bard, Barbarian, and Ranger in it. I actually thought about Warlock first because of the Devil's Sight. That with Darkness is incredibly enticing. Plus, it would be an awesome trick to pull out in many situations, not just battle. I like the idea of getting tired of trying to focus and learn magic so you turn to a patron - esp as a Drow.

As for melee or ranged.. I would saw more melee, but mostly because I often forget about my crossbow. Plus, I love being able to move in and BB someone then move back a few steps while the group is catching up.

The last four posts are interesting though. I guess I was going for Wizard more for the arcane ritual and true magic, but Warlock would be nice. I toyed with Artificer as well to get myself an infused weapon.. but nothing else really meshes with my character's background and what not.

Would it be weird to multiclass into Warlock when there's another group memeber as a Warlock?

Verble
2020-04-08, 08:23 PM
I play a level 6 AT/2 GOOlock and have a ball. Between disguise self at will and the friends spell I get up to a lot of shenanigans. Telepathy is great when you want to communicate silently in front of people.

Also keep in mind that the spell slots from warlock are considered Pact Magic which is tracked separately from your AT spell slots. Meaning you get a few AT slots that recharge on long rest and a few slots from warlock that recharge on a short rest.

GorogIrongut
2020-04-09, 06:16 AM
With your stats there are a lot of ways you can go.

1. If you like the Darkness combo for the Warlock, that's very viable. Or you could be a Shadow Sorceror and get the same bonus while giving yourself full caster progression to your spells (and Subtle).

2. If you're wed to the idea of being melee oriented, then put your next 6 levels into Shadow Monk. AT and Shadow Monk can be ridiculously effective. And you've got the stats for it.

3. If you want to lean harder into melee, then you might want to think of a Gloom Stalker Ranger. Terribly effective when mixed with an AT and depending on what your DM allows (PHB Ranger/Revised Ranger/Revised Ranger 2.0) the Ranger can be really fun to play.

4. If you're wed to going the path of the Wizard, then yes, Bladesinging can be very effective. I would personally, however, recommend a slight modification on this pathway. Start taking levels in Artificer. You get a slightly more robust frame (for combat) and an immense of shiny doodads capable of turning your AT into a combat monster... or not. I'd personally be tempted to use the most recent (UA) Armourer with Sneak Attack and Booming Blade (Think Thunder Gauntlets/Booming Blade/Sneak Attack).

virtualslayer22
2020-04-09, 11:26 AM
Well, now you guys have me stuck. This is all great info and fun to toy with.

I want to stay melee, but I also want to enhance my magic abilities. More so for control and utility rather than damage. But a wizard is appealing due to rituals and if I get stuck being the face of the party. The other characters with high Cha.. both are actually more self serving than anything else.

Guess I will have to toy with the differences between sorcerer, wizard, and warlock. If there wasn't a warlock already in our group, I would for sure go that route. I think it would be a lot of fun. Would it be weird to dip into that despite having another warlock in the group?

Sorinth
2020-04-09, 12:37 PM
Well, now you guys have me stuck. This is all great info and fun to toy with.

I want to stay melee, but I also want to enhance my magic abilities. More so for control and utility rather than damage. But a wizard is appealing due to rituals and if I get stuck being the face of the party. The other characters with high Cha.. both are actually more self serving than anything else.

Guess I will have to toy with the differences between sorcerer, wizard, and warlock. If there wasn't a warlock already in our group, I would for sure go that route. I think it would be a lot of fun. Would it be weird to dip into that despite having another warlock in the group?

If you are fine with the other Warlock's Patron choice then it's actually opens up a bunch of RP angles if you go with the same Patron.

You probably do want a different Pact and use at least some different spells/invocations.

Segev
2020-04-09, 01:38 PM
I don't see why it would be weird to have two Warlocks. The only question is if you're stepping on his toes. Build and play differently and that should not be an issue.

What, specifically, attracts you about Warlock? You might even refluff it so you're just doing more of whatever got you your Arcane Trickster magic.

Vogie
2020-04-10, 02:18 PM
It depends on how long you intend on going into AT.

For wizard, you will increase your spellcasting power linearly, and unlock 1st level ritual magic without any additional sacrifices, at the cost of a lower hit die:

A simple 2 level dip in War wizard gives you a mini-alert feat, as well as an additional reaction that boosts either your AC or Saving throws... since you're already primarily a weapon-damage dealer (or using things like GFB), the "cantrips only" rider doesn't really effect you much. Pushing back uncanny dodge isn't as big of a deal when you can simply deflect attacks or saving throws.
A 2 level dip in Bladesinger gives you a rechargeable Armor and speed boost, Advantage on Dex Saves (yay evasion) and a fairly nice Con boost for your concentration spells.

For Warlocks, you gain two SR spell slots and a pair of Invocations.

If you don't intend on going all the way to or past 13 for Versatile Trickster, Pact of the Chain warlocks give you an invisible source of advantage with only a 3 level dip.
If you intend on going up to AT 9 for Magical Ambush, going 3 levels into warlock for the Devil's Sight/Darkness combo is definitely a neat idea, as you'll be able to always be hidden - therefore nearly-free advantage on attacks, disadvantage on saves. You could go blade to always have a +1 weapon at hand, or Tome for Ritual casting and more cantrips.

So far unmentioned in the thread:

A single level of Wild Magic sorcerer will give 2 more spells known, 4 cantrips, and expands spellcasting linearly. You also get some on-demand advantage that resets whenever you cast a spell.
A three-level dip into Shadow Sorcerer gives you the Darkness/sight combo differently
A 3 level dip into Whispers Bard gives you EVEN MORE expertise and turn your Charisma into additional sneak attack damage.
A 3 level dip into Swords bard increases your damage via fighting style (unless going ranged), provides you with 3 interesting maneuvers as well as a ton of utilities. If you take it to 5, your the maneuvers jump to d8s, and come back each short rest, instead of long rest. Go all the way to 6, and you get the extra attack feature.
Not to mention, Bards have Ritual casting by default.

sambojin
2020-04-10, 02:20 PM
War Cleric would be a great 2lvl dip. Gives you a smattering of extra attacks a day (2), nearly-auto-stab 1/sr, guidance for more skills, bless for lower end stabbing, and some spell slots. And heavy armour if you ever do want that.

Then just go AT the rest of the way. Rogue=sneak attack, and making that an auto-stab sometimes is very useful and quite powerful. Yes, it's only 1/sr, but it increases your reliability immensely. Pity that you have fairly low Wis, but you can always boost that after you hit Dex20.

Expired
2020-04-10, 06:07 PM
I am in the middle of my first campaign. I'm playing a level 3 drow AT that is incredibly fun, but I am still learning how to play him uniquely. The party has two characters with very high CHA (each 20), but for some reason, they continually defer to me to be the face of the party, which makes things harder as my character develops.

Stats:
Str: 12
Dex: 18
Con: 16
Int: 18
Wis: 15
Cha: 18

Expertise: SoH/Stealth; Proficiency in Inv, Ins, Perc, Athl
Cantrips: BB, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion
Spells: Find Familiar, Hideous Laughter, Grease

I'm stuck because I think I want to multiclass into Wizard, but can't decide when or if it’s a good idea? What would be the best route? Should I take a feat at Level 4 (crossbow expertise or drow high magic are my top choices). Should I take the ASI and get my Dex or Int up to 20? Or should I go ahead and make the dip into Wizard?
A Wizard multiclass for an Arcane Trickster Rogue is a very good choice, especially with how high your Dex and Int are. For a melee AT Rogue, I would dip 2 levels of Bladesinger Wizard after Rogue level 4 for the ASI/Feat (I'd choose +2 to Dex because Int can wait until after you max Dex and it synergizes well with Magical Ambush) or level 5 for Uncanny Dodge and 3d6 Sneak Attack. BS Wizard offers ritual casting and Bladesong (which with your 18-20 Int is absolutely amazing).

Definitely learn Find Familiar for the on-demand advantage which improves your to-hit chance and probability of a critical hit (Nat 20's with Sneak attack are brutal, even moreso if you used Booming Blade). I would honestly take Sentinel if you have other frontliners, since you'll have such high AC starting out. This will allow you to apply Sneak Attack x2/round, however, it will make you more of a target so be aware of that.

The final build, assuming your campaign lasts until level 20 (which is highly unlikely), will be Arcane Trickster Rogue 18/Bladesinger Wizard 2.