Pathfinder - Mortal to God Maze.

[DragonsAion]

So I’m thinking of running game with the idea of running the players through a sort of “mortal to god” maze. The players will start at lvl 1 and finish at lvl 20 or 30. Each level of the maze will equal one character lvl so the 5th level of the maze will be made for 5th lvl PC’s.

The maze it’s self is its own living entity where anything goes and is contently changing. It fills its self with beasts and monsters from across the planes and can changes itself to match their environments. Therefore, a level filled with fire elemental would mimic the elemental plane of fire or the plane of water for water elemental. A level could be a lush forest whereas the next level could be a vast desert. The doors to the next level are hidden, with puzzles giving clues to its location when solved or the questing beast is slayed.

The backstory I have right now is that each PC has a divine spark or promise and the maze has plucked them out of their lives at random to test them. If the PC’s complete the maze successfully then they are transformed into immortals or gods (divine rank 0 in 3.5), if they fail then they are transformed into a monster a fitting their class or alignment. PCs would be from all walks of life from the simple farmer to the would-be king. Not sure if I will let them start with standard basic gear or make them search or loot for weapons and armor.

What I would like your help with is the design and rules for each level of the maze and what monsters to fill it with. Since this is an anything goes maze there are no limits on sources be they 1st or 3rd party. This forum has a great imagination and I would really like to be able to draw on it.

[Kurald Galain]

You should read up on the Starstone, which in-universe is almost exactly this.

[DragonsAion]

I'm AFB right now, but i was hoping for help with what kind of monsters to use on what floor and kind of environment rules to use.

[upho]

Some general pointers/tips/recommendations:

Levels
Don't run the game past 20th; PF isn't designed for it. If you want the equivalent of 3.5's Epic, use PF's Mythic (https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Mythic%20Rules&Category=Optional%20Rule%20Systems) instead (fits your campaign concept perfectly) which instead gives a progression of up to 10 "Mythic tiers" parallel to regular levels. Note however that if you do, you're most likely going to have to put in a bit more work designing the challenges, the players have to become familiar with even more mechanics, and you have to be a bit more watchful of PC balance issues (especially Mythic casters can become incredibly powerful).

Gear
If the PCs arrive at the maze without gear, note that especially the martial classes (those with less than 5/9 casting/manifesting/equivalent progression) will very soon become highly dependent on having the appropriate gear in order to work as intended, and that without allowing flexible retraining at little to no cost, the equipment you let them find early on may very well end up dictating much of their build options for several levels. And of course, for example many casters need component pouches to be able to cast at all. And unless you plan to let the PCs find "magic marts" where they can sell treasure and buy what they want and need, or the appropriate crafting equipment, facilities and material and to give them several months of down-time to craft their own mundane and magic gear, I suggest you use item wish-lists for your treasure to help ensure the PCs get what they actually want and need to function.

Environments
Keep to the environments relatively normal and hospitable during the first levels, giving the PCs a chance to first gain the abilities they need to handle more dangerous environments. Then progress through increasingly demanding and inhospitable environments as they gain levels, starting with stuff such as deserts and oceans, and ending with extreme environments such as elemental planes, deep space or even more weird places. You'll find plenty of tips, inspiration and mechanics here (https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Planar%20Adventures&Category=Gamemastering), here (https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Mastering%20the%20Wild&Category=Gamemastering) and here (https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Horror%20Rules&Category=Gamemastering).

Have the campaign end with a big reveal, letting the PCs and players realize they're actually just the latest party in a series thousands who have been forced to partake in a massive "Truman Show" constructed simply to entertain the established deities... And then let the PCs join the other gods in their proverbial couches to watch the struggles of the next bunch of unwitting heroes! :smallbiggrin:

[Calthropstu]

Some general pointers/tips/recommendations:

Levels
Don't run the game past 20th; PF isn't designed for it. If you want the equivalent of 3.5's Epic, use PF's Mythic (https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Mythic%20Rules&Category=Optional%20Rule%20Systems) instead (fits your campaign concept perfectly) which instead gives a progression of up to 10 "Mythic tiers" parallel to regular levels. Note however that if you do, you're most likely going to have to put in a bit more work designing the challenges, the players have to become familiar with even more mechanics, and you have to be a bit more watchful of PC balance issues (especially Mythic casters can become incredibly powerful).

Gear
If the PCs arrive at the maze without gear, note that especially the martial classes (those with less than 5/9 casting/manifesting/equivalent progression) will very soon become highly dependent on having the appropriate gear in order to work as intended, and that without allowing flexible retraining at little to no cost, the equipment you let them find early on may very well end up dictating much of their build options for several levels. And of course, for example many casters need component pouches to be able to cast at all. And unless you plan to let the PCs find "magic marts" where they can sell treasure and buy what they want and need, or the appropriate crafting equipment, facilities and material and to give them several months of down-time to craft their own mundane and magic gear, I suggest you use item wish-lists for your treasure to help ensure the PCs get what they actually want and need to function.

Environments
Keep to the environments relatively normal and hospitable during the first levels, giving the PCs a chance to first gain the abilities they need to handle more dangerous environments. Then progress through increasingly demanding and inhospitable environments as they gain levels, starting with stuff such as deserts and oceans, and ending with extreme environments such as elemental planes, deep space or even more weird places. You'll find plenty of tips, inspiration and mechanics here (https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Planar%20Adventures&Category=Gamemastering), here (https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Mastering%20the%20Wild&Category=Gamemastering) and here (https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Horror%20Rules&Category=Gamemastering).

Have the campaign end with a big reveal, letting the PCs and players realize they're actually just the latest party in a series thousands who have been forced to partake in a massive "Truman Show" constructed simply to entertain the established deities... And then let the PCs join the other gods in their proverbial couches to watch the struggles of the next bunch of unwitting heroes! :smallbiggrin:

On the mythic rules, I agree with your assessment. It is much more usable. Hmm, I wonder if anyone has combined the 2. I imagine things getting pretty nuts. "Mythic augmented epic mage armor ftw!"

On a serious note, I have to add a specific caution. Most mythic spells are... okay. They get a lot more powerful, butthen everything does. And mythic spells are, with some exceptions, far from the most broken things in mythic. There are, however, 3 extreme exceptions that you should banhammer real quick.

The worst offender won't come into play until the end game. But it WILL end that end game. Mythic augmented time stop. Mythic time stop by itself is kinda cool: you get to take extra people into time stop. The augmented version changes the duration to 1 hour/level. Do not let your players use this. Do not use it against them.

Second on this list comes into play much sooner and is just pure dickery. Mythic sphere of invulnerability. Makes you immune to all spells of 4th or less and then non-mythic spells of 4+1/2tier. A 10th tier casting of this is LOL WHAT? Far worse than antimagic because you can cast out of it. And, since enemy casters tend to be stronger or higher tier than pcs, it is just kicking the pcs and calling it funny. And the pcs using it makes any non-mythic spellcaster near useless.

The last is... tricky to catch. Mythic disintegrate doesn't look like it does much. It merely makes the damage +50% and turns the 10 foot cube destruction into 1 10ft cube/level. However, it synergizes more with mythic abilities and metamagic than any other spell.
The damage gets quickly out of control once aigmentation gets added. I clocked the damage, when fully augmented, at over 4,500. On a successful save, the damage hits 480. That's enough to kill almost anything ON A SUCCESSFUL SAVE.
(How it gets this: Rod of maximize, empowered, mythic ability which adds an additional 50% damage stacking with empower. The save becomes 5d8 damage or 40. Double it to go to 80. Double again to hit 160 because the augment splits the ray. You then add effects guaranteeing a critical and combine with mythic improved critical: ray.)

So kill those 3 mythic spells from your game.

[Firest Kathon]

Second on this list comes into play much sooner and is just pure dickery. Mythic sphere of invulnerability. Makes you immune to all spells of 4th or less and then non-mythic spells of 4+1/2tier. A 10th tier casting of this is LOL WHAT? Far worse than antimagic because you can cast out of it. And, since enemy casters tend to be stronger or higher tier than pcs, it is just kicking the pcs and calling it funny. And the pcs using it makes any non-mythic spellcaster near useless.

Did you experience this in an actual game? I would expect the two major weaknesses of the spell (which, by the way, is called Globe of Invulnerability (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/globe-of-invulnerability/)) make it a useful protection, but not make casters useless. The weaknesses would be that it is not movable (means the caster has to get out once a melee characters comes in, or once tactical movement of sight obstructions block line of sight) and that it can be brought down with a simple Dispel Magic. Since I have no experiences with mythic play and have not looked into it too deeply, I cannot offer any deeper anylsis or observations, but for me this seems like there are enough options to work around it that it is a good tactic, but not game-braking (at least not any more than other mythic options).

Edited to add:

Regarding the OP, the Emerald Spire Superdungeon (https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/The_Emerald_Spire_Superdungeon) is more or less like that, bringing the players from level 1 to 13 over 16 dungeon levels. You can get an idea of the enemies from this wiki article (https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Emerald_Spire).

[Kurald Galain]

I would recommend against using mythic, because its main effect of mythic is to substantially slow down gameplay for no real benefit. Mythic paths, feats, and spells run the full gamut from ZOMG-OP to largely-useless. And also what Upho said,


you're most likely going to have to put in a bit more work designing the challenges, the players have to become familiar with even more mechanics, and you have to be a bit more watchful of PC balance issues

Straight-up levels 1 through 20 should serve you well. Rather, look up the Chronicles of Legend so that characters can have more interesting capstones.

[Kurald Galain]

Also, I'd suggest checking this book (https://paizo.com/products/btpy8yqx?Pathfinder-Module-The-Emerald-Spire-Superdungeon).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by DragonsAion
So I’m thinking of running game with the idea of running the players through a sort of “mortal to god” maze. The players will start at lvl 1 and finish at lvl 20 or 30. Each level of the maze will equal one character lvl so the 5th level of the maze will be made for 5th lvl PC’s.

Do you have a group of players already lined up who are on board with this concept?

Speaking only for myself, being stuck in a maze for twenty levels is not an appealing campaign concept. If you have players that are gung-ho for it, that’s great, but just be sure they understand they’ll be in a maze for twenty levels.

[Biggus]

There are PF rules for advancing beyond 20th level: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement/#Advancing_Beyond_20th_Level

However, they're explicitly only intended to work for a few (maybe 2 or 3) levels after 20th and will become wildly unbalanced if used much beyond that. But you could for example combine it with mythic to give a mythic tier every 2nd level and actual godhood at level 22 or something like that.

[Calthropstu]

Did you experience this in an actual game? I would expect the two major weaknesses of the spell (which, by the way, is called Globe of Invulnerability (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/globe-of-invulnerability/)) make it a useful protection, but not make casters useless. The weaknesses would be that it is not movable (means the caster has to get out once a melee characters comes in, or once tactical movement of sight obstructions block line of sight) and that it can be brought down with a simple Dispel Magic. Since I have no experiences with mythic play and have not looked into it too deeply, I cannot offer any deeper anylsis or observations, but for me this seems like there are enough options to work around it that it is a good tactic, but not game-braking (at least not any more than other mythic options).

Edited to add:

Regarding the OP, the Emerald Spire Superdungeon (https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/The_Emerald_Spire_Superdungeon) is more or less like that, bringing the players from level 1 to 13 over 16 dungeon levels. You can get an idea of the enemies from this wiki article (https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Emerald_Spire).

Oh sure, it CAN be brought down by dispel magic. Except a person using this will rely upon it heavily. It literally guarantees you get the first spell off which, in the game of rocket tag that mythic spellcasting is, means absurd advantage. Plus, there's little guarantee that the spell will get dispelled meaning you have a pretty good chance (especially if you spend an extra mythic point to make it harder to dispel) that the party spellcaster will literally waste his first couple of turns.

Of course, it does have a weakness. Non-mythic buffs will become useless. If you want to fly, you'll either need wings or you'll need to use a mythic buff of 5th level. This becomes rather hilarious when the player forgets that fact. This ACTUALLY happened in a game. The party was using overland flight and ran into an enemy spellcaster. He popped this and I just had to facepalm. He immeddiately fell until he was no longer in the sphere. Trust me, the spell is a LOT of headache.

[Firest Kathon]

Of course, it does have a weakness. Non-mythic buffs will become useless. If you want to fly, you'll either need wings or you'll need to use a mythic buff of 5th level. This becomes rather hilarious when the player forgets that fact. This ACTUALLY happened in a game. The party was using overland flight and ran into an enemy spellcaster. He popped this and I just had to facepalm. He immeddiately fell until he was no longer in the sphere. Trust me, the spell is a LOT of headache.

I'm rather thinking the player actually read the spell description:


Spells of 4th level and higher are not affected by the globe, nor are spells already in effect when the globe is cast.

[Calthropstu]

I'm rather thinking the player actually read the spell description:

huh. That was the DM's call. So it was on our dm. Even so, it is still very much a headache.

[DragonsAion]

Thanks for all the information guys. I'll look though the suggested books and see what I can use and take away. I'm sure i will have other questions to ask later on.