Mundanes at Epic Level

[Afghanistan]

I am aware of how blisteringly unbalanced this game gets at 7th level, let alone after 20th level, but I've wondered what exactly does an Epic level Mundane character exactly do that allows them to remain relevant towards adventuring in an epic campaign? I am not looking for this to be a discussion on "Well spellcasters can do...", I'm mostly just looking for options for mundanes at Epic level.

Partially inspired by this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610031-Making-armor-viable-at-epic-levels) thread.

[StevenC21]

They whack stuff good and beg casters for nice things, same as always.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There are typically enough immunities flying around in epic that most monsters only really take physical damage, except for a few very exotic effects. So damage dealers tend to be more useful in epic than they were near the end of pre-epic, assuming they can survive. And with things like permanent, uncurable hit point drain in the mix...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

They get all the necessary magic item (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) effects covered, preferably with a deluxe option on each. Otherwise, one failed/impossible/denied save and they're useless.

They deal enough damage in one hit/one round to reliably drop any opponent they'll face, and be able to reliably hit with those attacks. Otherwise they're useless.

They're able to avoid, absorb, counteract with self-heals, or otherwise tank enough damage to reliably survive the opponents' attacks for a few rounds, basically until the rocket tag that's epic combat is over. A dead character is useless, possibly even a liability if the enemy creates spawn.

Skill checks are largely a joke at that level, but what skills they do need to roll, their bonus should be high enough to never fail. Otherwise those checks should be left to other characters who will always succeed, or alternatives to rolling that skill check should be found.

In the epic levels, mundanes will only be good at a few things, whereas spellcasters will be good at everything. So the mundanes may have a bit of fun doing those few things they're good at when they have an opportunity to do so, but otherwise they're following the spellcasters around. Also, whatever things they're good at, the spellcasters could also do, so the mundanes are actually redundant.

[Afghanistan]

They whack stuff good and beg casters for nice things, same as always.

For sake of discussion, lets presume there are no spellcasters, but somehow there are still magic items in this game universe.


There are typically enough immunities flying around in epic that most monsters only really take physical damage, except for a few very exotic effects. So damage dealers tend to be more useful in epic than they were near the end of pre-epic, assuming they can survive. And with things like permanent, uncurable hit point drain in the mix...


They get all the necessary magic item (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) effects covered, preferably with a deluxe option on each. Otherwise, one failed/impossible/denied save and they're useless.

They deal enough damage in one hit/one round to reliably drop any opponent they'll face, and be able to reliably hit with those attacks. Otherwise they're useless.

They're able to avoid, absorb, counteract with self-heals, or otherwise tank enough damage to reliably survive the opponents' attacks for a few rounds, basically until the rocket tag that's epic combat is over. A dead character is useless, possibly even a liability if the enemy creates spawn.

Skill checks are largely a joke at that level, but what skills they do need to roll, their bonus should be high enough to never fail. Otherwise those checks should be left to other characters who will always succeed, or alternatives to rolling that skill check should be found.

In the epic levels, mundanes will only be good at a few things, whereas spellcasters will be good at everything. So the mundanes may have a bit of fun doing those few things they're good at when they have an opportunity to do so, but otherwise they're following the spellcasters around. Also, whatever things they're good at, the spellcasters could also do, so the mundanes are actually redundant.

Unfortunate. I'm trying to figure out an encounter that might suitably challenge, but not horrifically kill or brick a mundane character in an epic game. However, most creatures are either painfully poorly challenge rated (The legendary animals for example), or have effects that after a single encounter with one such creature, is basically the end of that characters career at best, or life at worst. So given that the simplest answer is optimize for a single task and make sure you do it consistently enough that you do not bring your party down, what sort of options outside of that list might be best? Feats, Prestige Classes, nothing is sacred here. I'm curious how well optimized a mundane would need to be to be able to engage in epic level play, because as it stands, I am simply not seeing it.

[StevenC21]

Either get casting, or get a magic item to do the casting.

Eventually you will roll a one, and with an Epic Mundane you are donezo if that happens.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Unfortunate. I'm trying to figure out an encounter that might suitably challenge, but not horrifically kill or brick a mundane character in an epic game. However, most creatures are either painfully poorly challenge rated (The legendary animals for example), or have effects that after a single encounter with one such creature, is basically the end of that characters career at best, or life at worst. So given that the simplest answer is optimize for a single task and make sure you do it consistently enough that you do not bring your party down, what sort of options outside of that list might be best? Feats, Prestige Classes, nothing is sacred here. I'm curious how well optimized a mundane would need to be to be able to engage in epic level play, because as it stands, I am simply not seeing it.Dungeon crashing is pretty decent. The ability to move enemies by hitting and dealing damage (and dealing even more damage if they hit something else) is pretty nice. And it doesn't take that much effort to optimize into usefulness, so you can easily find another thing or three you can spend more effort optimizing with.

Now, if only you could find ways to tactically build walls around the battlefield without magic to slam enemies into and cordon them off. Being Toph would come in seriously handy, here.

[Aracor]

I'm going to talk about my own personal experience in epic games. I've played in 4 different ones, and the highest level we hit was 28.

In the game where we got to the highest level:
Our optimization level was medium. Not everyone was running around with persistent spells, but people were at least 10-20% above WBL and it was used pretty well. Our wizard was more blaster than God, and our clerics were buffed beatsticks who had casting as a secondary option. Epic magic was in play, but all spells were subject to DM approval and he house-ruled that you couldn't drop the DC below the base DC for the seeds you were using, so it wasn't possible to have 0 DC spells or anything too over the top. There was an epic mage armor spell that buffed the entire group with around a +20 Deflection bonus to AC (he wanted it to apply to touch), and a Ward spell to make the entire party immune to Antimagic Field and Disjunction. The party was 6 people in total - Strength-based lightly armored fighter type, monk/cleric Sacred Fist type, Persist cleric/Contemplative type, Arcane Archer fighter type (he liked AA for the automatic magic arrows and had a minimum of casting), a wizard/lich type, and a rogue-type.

Beatsticks were NECESSARY for us. Because of the way epic rules work, PCs top out at level 20 as far as BAB and saves. Monsters...don't. And since hit dice tend to go up faster than CR, the higher level we got in epic, the less effective spells that allowed saves were. And the more effective the casters buffing the melee people was. No save just suck spells still got used as well, and that helped - but casters actually felt LESS powerful because their spells didn't scale any more. And epic magic is not at all well designed.


In the end, it comes down to optimization level. If a caster gets a 5 minute adventuring day, and can prepare optimal spells each day, they can probably still wreck encounters. If not, they'll be consummately less powerful. But melee damage (with few exceptions) always works. And many epic monsters in the ELH are just big sacks of stats and hit points, which a mundane PC can destroy as long as they have better bonuses and/or more hit points.

[tyckspoon]

In the end, it comes down to optimization level. If a caster gets a 5 minute adventuring day, and can prepare optimal spells each day, they can probably still wreck encounters. If not, they'll be consummately less powerful. But melee damage (with few exceptions) always works. And many epic monsters in the ELH are just big sacks of stats and hit points, which a mundane PC can destroy as long as they have better bonuses and/or more hit points.

This is one of two ways Epic play can sort of work out, being much like pre-Epic play but with silly inflated numbers, in which case all you have to do is figure out how to make your numbers keep up (this usually involves either Epic Spells designed to buff, which is basically the one way those sort of as written, or completely ignoring any concept of wealth limitations and just plastering your fighter types with ludicrously expensive epic items.)

The other is semi-freeform god games that happen when you fully exploit Epic Spells, cheap access to Wish and Miracle, and similar. Fighter kinds basically have no way to participate in this.

[AvatarVecna]

Let's assume a world where spellcasting is impossible, and magic items exist, but only out-of-the-book ones - no custom nonsense. What can be accomplished that's legitimately impressive, without resorting to just "UMD+scrolls=LOL"?

1: Immunity To Non-Melee
Exceptional Deflection, Infinite Deflection, and Reflect Arrows are all feasible by lvl 30 or so for most non-casters that would consider them, and they're a defensive boon. Anything that would require a ranged attack to succeed just automatically fails and gets returned-to-sender. Really, the only one of the three that's super-necessary is Infinite Deflection, which is effectively "immunity to normal ranged weapons" - Exceptional Deflection is useful for avoiding thrown boulders or spells, and Reflect Arrows is useful for punishing enemies for trying, but Infinite Deflection is what takes it from a neat trick to a solid defense.

2: Death By Massive Damage
Most martial classes have some path to fairly easily putting out 50+ damage on an attack in any given round by about lvl 30. Sure, the DC is only 15 and most monsters have good Fort, but you can always fail on a 1, at least by default. Incidentally, past a certain point in epic, this makes the feat Steadfast Determination a lot more valuable.

3: Iaijutsu Focus
This arguably isn't super-cool, necessarily, but it's not a trained-only skill, so this is something that you can attempt any time you're doing a draw+strike on a FF opponent, or whenever attacking an object (and even somebody with a +0 has a chance at +3d6 damage). The DC maxes out at 50 (at least without spending a feat), so you can use ranks or items to get a pretty solid bonus there even with no Charisma. This is especially good if you're a factotum, as is the case in pre-epic gameplay.

There's some fun stuff you can do with epic skill uses, too, but ehhhhhh.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Maybe some kind of large+ size, Dungeoncrasher Fighter/Frenzied Berserker, with pounce (Lion spirit), a way of getting a very high attack bonus to enemy AC ratio*, Power Attack, Leap Attack, Knock-Back, a Valorous weapon, and a way of consistently enabling Dungeoncrashing a foe into a solid obstacle**. With Deathless Frenzy and all the necessary magic item effects (and assuming Diehard makes him stay conscious when his nonlethal damage exceeds his current hit points, otherwise Deathless Frenzy would do nothing at all), he should be able to at least contribute at that level.

* Shock Trooper is one way, an intelligent item that can use Wraithstrike at will and uses its action every turn to activate that on him is another. Whatever you prefer. If using intelligent items this way, also do one that can use Rhino's Rush on him. Leadership for a Fiend of Possession cohort that can possess him and use personal-range buffs such as those on him is another way, but then you've got a spellcaster.

** Giving him flight and dungeoncrashing them against the ground is the easiest way, but way too many opponents will also be flying. An adamantine or similarly indestructible 5 ft. square wall with Permanency + Animate Object and the ability to fly, and an Immovable Rod for good measure, which positions itself on the opposite side of his opponent is silly but would work until it's attacked and destroyed.

[Biggus]

There's the "make them save or die several times per round" technique. With Perfect 2WF and some kind of Haste effect, you get ten attacks per round. If you threaten a critical on a 15-20 that's an average of three threats per round, with Devastating Critical and Death of Enemies a Ranger can force two saves for every critical hit, or six per round if you confirm all the threats (maybe take Power Critical a couple of times if this isn't happening). If massive damage is in play, that potentially goes up to nine saves per round. Even if they only fail on a natural one, the odds are they're going to roll one in the first two rounds. Obviously quite a few epic opponents will be immune to critical hits or death effects, but by no means all.

Another thing worth mentioning is that you're explicitly intended to create your own epic feats rather than just stick to the premade ones (ELH p.46) so it's partly down to player creativity (and negotiating ability with the DM) what they can make their mundanes do. A really awesome ability might have to be split into several epic feats, but pretty much anything should be possible eventually.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you threaten a critical on a 15-20 ....

Those are rookie numbers!

Take Psychic Weapon Master (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) 7+ with a natural 18-20 weapon and Improved Critical. PWM gives you +2 numbers to your threat range, taking it to 16-20, then apply Improved Critical in the most beneficial order to take it down to 11-20.

However, pretty much everything is immune to critical hits at epic levels anyway, so that's not exactly a viable option.

[Sinner's Garden]

In 3e, a Fighter can get DvR 0 at level ten. In original D&D, Fighters retired at ten, because they became full fledged lords of their own kingdoms and, frankly, didn't have the ability to keep up. Any character you're classifying as a mundane does not, and indeed should not keep up with high and epic level shenanigans. My best suggestion is to play a new game, probably with a new system, because there are a lot more games than D&D out there that do a lot more things, and if you want epic level high flying bonanzas that don't resolve around the wizard's spellbook, D&D is not the game you should be playing.

[zfs]

Expanding epic skill uses helps as well. The ones that exist are a good guideline - though maybe lower some of the DCs, or else you're just encouraging cheese to hit those numbers at will.

[False God]

Largely depends on their equipment. Do they have stuff that fills holes in their class design? Stuff that shores up their defenses? Stuff that lets them kick even more butt?

Then it depends on what they're fighting. Are they fighting stuff that's mostly immune to physical attacks?

And finally: are they even human? A completely mundane, no frills human fighter at 21st-30th level (or beyond) is only going to get so far. Even with gear their stats are only so high, they only have so many points to gain.

----
IME: Mundanes typically need lots of buffs and lots of gear to keep up at epic levels. Or monsters that are nearly immune to spells.

[Biggus]

Those are rookie numbers!

Take Psychic Weapon Master (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) 7+ with a natural 18-20 weapon and Improved Critical. PWM gives you +2 numbers to your threat range, taking it to 16-20, then apply Improved Critical in the most beneficial order to take it down to 11-20.


As I think we discussed a few months ago, the "apply in the most beneficial order" thing isn't a rule, it's a "general guideline" from the FAQ, so it depends very much on a cooperative DM to get those numbers.

Edit: also, Psychic Weapon Master (and ordinary Weapon Master) are 3.0 material, so it also requires the DM to accept that those class abilities override 3.5's "multiple abilities which increase threat range don't stack" rule.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As I think we discussed a few months ago, the "apply in the most beneficial order" thing isn't a rule, it's a "general guideline" from the FAQ, so it depends very much on a cooperative DM to get those numbers.

Edit: also, Psychic Weapon Master (and ordinary Weapon Master) are 3.0 material, so it also requires the DM to accept that those class abilities override 3.5's "multiple abilities which increase threat range don't stack" rule.

There original is the 3.0 version, the (revised) one is updated for 3.5 and is the one I originally linked. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/psi)

[Quertus]

what exactly does an Epic level Mundane character exactly do that allows them to remain relevant towards adventuring in an epic campaign? .


For sake of discussion, lets presume there are no spellcasters, but somehow there are still magic items in this game universe.

Unfortunate. I'm trying to figure out an encounter that might suitably challenge, but not horrifically kill or brick a mundane character in an epic game. However, most creatures are either painfully poorly challenge rated (The legendary animals for example), or have effects that after a single encounter with one such creature, is basically the end of that characters career at best, or life at worst. So given that the simplest answer is optimize for a single task and make sure you do it consistently enough that you do not bring your party down, what sort of options outside of that list might be best? Feats, Prestige Classes, nothing is sacred here. I'm curious how well optimized a mundane would need to be to be able to engage in epic level play, because as it stands, I am simply not seeing it.

First off, there should be no such thing as an epic level mundane. An epic level muggle? Sure. An epic level martial character? Definitely. But by epic, they should be anything but mundane.

-----

I am (part of?) a small but vocal minority that says "you're looking at this backwards". So, try looking at it my way:

Find out what epic Fighters can do. That's… not unlike this thread, tbh. Then build adventures towards that.

Now, me, I'm a ****. I do things even more "backwards". I build an adventure. Then i try to build a party or two that I think will work on that adventure. Then I use them to play test that adventure, to see if my guess was right. If not, I boost/nerf the level of the party, and/or the optimization of one or more PCs, until the party makes it through the module "about right".

I show those sample characters to the players when presenting the adventure elevator speech. It's up to the players to balance to the table, and to the module. If they built a character who cannot keep up, then they have failed to balance to the table, as surely as if they had built something TO OP. If they lack the skills to build a good character, the group can help them build the character, or you as GM can give them bonuses (free LA, artifacts, custom prestige classes, whatever) to get them up to par.

-----

So, what can epic Fighters do? Combat, obviously. Skills, if they level dip or cross-class - especially if you, as GM, don't artificially inflated the DCs. Cool things? Seems likely. So let's look at a few of the things epic level muggles could do in my various epic parties.

They could kill as many enemies as were within their reach per round. They could survive dozens of simultaneous explosions (that turned the party sorcerer into paste). They could deflect any targeted ranged attacks. They could walk on clouds, turn ethereal, walk through walls of force. They could befriend entire dungeons. They had minions to do their thinking for them. They had flying fortresses. They had dragon mounts. They had sentient items taking actions. They had artifacts aplenty. They had Permanencied spell effects. They had UMD and 1-off toolkits. They had laser rifles and smoke grenades. They could 1-shot the gods. They had custom items - whether RAW or homebrew - that made Hank's Bow look like trash. They could regenerate and self-resurrect. One was a vampire, one was a were-dragon (free gestalt), one was angelic, one was a troll, most were human.


Dungeon crashing is pretty decent. The ability to move enemies by hitting and dealing damage (and dealing even more damage if they hit something else) is pretty nice. And it doesn't take that much effort to optimize into usefulness, so you can easily find another thing or three you can spend more effort optimizing with.

Now, if only you could find ways to tactically build walls around the battlefield without magic to slam enemies into and cordon them off. Being Toph would come in seriously handy, here.

I got to play in a game where we all got 'bender powers added to D&D characters; I got Earth. It was great!

[Aotrs Commander]

Speaking from the one campaign I ran that reached into bottom level epic (level 21 or 22), the martials (Fighter, rogue 15ish/swordsage, monk 15ish/swordsage and the ranger/fighter/deepwood sniper/crusader - the casters were a wizard and cleric) were doing fine and the fighter in particular was a straight, no-frills longsword-and-board beatstick. Now, granted, we were already at that point giving fighters a feat every level, and I has started to buff the martials up already because of this (the reason the player of the rogue and monk classed out was because of the pants top levels of monk and rogue in 3.5), but they were still doing okay.

The campaign was basically a converted Dragon Mountain, so the enermies were almost all classed kobolds, turning into demons - but in a confined cave system - at the very end.

Thus, in practise, in that game at least, I never saw the problem I often hear about that fighters can be rendered ineffective because of lack of special abilitie (like flight). (That and my group ALWAYS work very much together (they've only gotten better as time has gone now; there is now a Party Buff sheet for good reason....!))

So, I think it very much depends on not on just simply the level of optimisation, but much more on the nature and terrain of the encounters. Martials are going to be having far fewer problems dealing with classed enemies (assuming that means not all primary caster classed-enemies) than with just monsters, and in confined spaces like dungeons, stuff like flight isn't AS big an advantage.

(Also, I personally hold that, if you're DMing right, the casters won't be dominating the fight, because they'll be far too busy having to deal with the enemy casters and vice-versa! Combined arms is the best solution, as always, not least because it always gives everyone something to do.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

An epic level Fighter is basically Thanos - So tough that nothing can hurt him, so strong that he outclasses everyone, and so skilled that he can box the Hulk and win. But he also had absurdly powerful followers, including a wizard, he had a massive warship and a huge army, and eventually the stones. He was the only one who could use the stones, because he was so physically strong, something none of the other characters had. A plot device that makes the party depend on a character's natural physical strength and durability is pretty much the only way this type of character can contribute in the epic levels, and that plot device basically turns him into a wizard.

Another epic level Fighter is Thor. Super strong, super tough, can fly, has a magical weapon that's uber-powerful, and an innate special attack that can buff his own attacks or AoE trash mobs.

Most of the Avengers are actually mundane (Captain America, Black Widow, Hawkeye, most of the Guardians of the Galaxy), while nearly all the rest are mostly mundane with a special ability that could be emulated with a magic item or class features (Ant Man, Iron Man, Hulk, Black Panther, Spider-Man, etc.). What those movies get right is having multiple objectives that each character gets to shine in accomplishing, and having huge fights with opponents at different difficulties so everyone can handle something that's on their own level. The difference in D&D is that you shouldn't split the party, and that the spellcasters can just supernova the enemies that were meant as a challenge for the mundanes with one of their quickened spells, without even breaking stride. D&D's problem isn't that the mundanes are weak, it's that the spellcasters are way too powerful.

[Biggus]

There original is the 3.0 version, the (revised) one is updated for 3.5 and is the one I originally linked. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/psi)

My apologies, I didn't know it'd been updated for 3.5. I guess that means the non-psionic Weapon Master is valid in 3.5 too. So you can definitely get your crit range to 13-20 at least.

[Aracor]

In 3e, a Fighter can get DvR 0 at level ten.

Okay, I want you to show your work on this one. How does a fighter get Divine Rank 0 at level 10 without DM fiat?

[Afghanistan]

First off, there should be no such thing as an epic level mundane. An epic level muggle? Sure. An epic level martial character? Definitely. But by epic, they should be anything but mundane.

I feel that this is unnecessarily splitting hairs. In this context, mundane essentially translates to non-spellcaster, non-psionic. In no way have I suggested that this character is limited to the Fighter class, or any class in particular. I even explicitly asked for build ideas as to what a Mundane character can truly contribute to an epic level party.



I am (part of?) a small but vocal minority that says "you're looking at this backwards". So, try looking at it my way:

Find out what epic Fighters can do. That's… not unlike this thread, tbh. Then build adventures towards that.

Yes, this was my intention. I am essentially crowd sourcing ideas for what a mundane/muggle/non-spellcaster, non-psionic character can contribute to a party to allow them to maintain viable in a setting tailor made for them. They have all of the resources necessary to shine, with no other entity around to outshine them, how do they keep up with listed entities out of the Epic Level Handbook on a case by case basis? Is there no generalist build that allows a mundane/muggle/non-spellcaster, non-psionic character equally contribute to each encounter in such a way as to resolve it in an Epic encounter timescale (usually in the first round, or before the encounter even begins)?



They could kill as many enemies as were within their reach per round.

Assuming they are all beneath CR mooks, and sometimes maybe not? Sure. However I'm confident mundane/muggles/non-spellcasters, non-psionic characters can do the same thing even below epic level.


They could survive dozens of simultaneous explosions (that turned the party sorcerer into paste).

Again, this is par for the course. However I don't necessarily agree a similar fate would occur to an Epic Sorcerer, but that is outside of the scope of this discussion. There is no need to compare mundanes to anything in this discussion as it is simply to gauge what a mundane can achieve to remain relevant against epic level threats.


They could deflect any targeted ranged attacks. They could walk on clouds, turn ethereal, walk through walls of force.

They had minions to do their thinking for them. They had flying fortresses. They had dragon mounts.

They had Permanencied spell effects.

Feat, Skill, Skill/Class Feature/Feat, Skill/Class Feature/Feat/Item. Yes, they can indeed do and have all of these things. However, I question if relying on minions or simply having a hoard of henchmen qualifies as an Epic mundane/muggles/non-spellcasters, non-psionic characters abilities. I believe this simply adds to the body count if nothing else. As alien as it might sound, my money is still on the Mu Spore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/muSpore.htm) or the Neh-Thalggu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/nehThalggu.htm) against Master Chief and the entirety of the UNSC fighting with them at their back.


They could befriend entire dungeons.

Somewhat arbitrary, but I generally discount Diplomancers from being anything beyond a blatant exploitation of the games rules. Perfectly acceptable for this case however.


They had sentient items taking actions.

This is somehow different from walking around with a spellcaster in your party how? Again, my inquiry was what an Epic mundane/muggles/non-spellcasters, non-psionic character can achieve, I hardly think "strap a spellcaster to their belt" is an acceptable response.


They had artifacts aplenty.

They had laser rifles and smoke grenades.

They could 1-shot the gods.

Artifacts are purely the purview of the DM. I do not think it is something that can be reliably banked upon. Laser Rifles are an OPTIONAL rule in the DMG for futuristic weapons, but doubtful to be found in your average dungeons and dragons campaign world. If you can find a 3.5 encounter or stat block with a Laser Rifle with a price and other noteworthy statistics, I'll be happy to change my mind. As for 1-shotting gods, if you have such a build, by all means. Present it. Furthermore:


They had custom items - whether RAW or homebrew - that made Hank's Bow look like trash.

This is contentious and again entirely subject to an extremely lenient DM. Most DMs that I've played with would never allow a player to run around with say, Jaerom Darkwind's Red Mage robes for example.


They had UMD and 1-off toolkits.

Wealth by level abuse is a solid play, but to do so to the point where you are essentially a spellcaster in everything, but class feature, is a sense disappointing.


They could regenerate and self-resurrect. One was a vampire, one was a were-dragon (free gestalt), one was angelic, one was a troll, most were human.

Interesting. Was this your adventuring party? Could you show me a mythweaver sheet of such characters or direct me to a PDF? I'm deeply curious.

[Quertus]

Wow. What a reply. So, there's some cool stuff, and a few misunderstandings. But it's quite the wall, so I'll spoil for length.




I feel that this is unnecessarily splitting hairs. In this context, mundane essentially translates to non-spellcaster, non-psionic. In no way have I suggested that this character is limited to the Fighter class, or any class in particular. I even explicitly asked for build ideas as to what a Mundane character can truly contribute to an epic level party.




Yes, this was my intention. I am essentially crowd sourcing ideas for what a mundane/muggle/non-spellcaster, non-psionic character can contribute to a party to allow them to maintain viable in a setting tailor made for them. They have all of the resources necessary to shine, with no other entity around to outshine them, how do they keep up with listed entities out of the Epic Level Handbook on a case by case basis? Is there no generalist build that allows a mundane/muggle/non-spellcaster, non-psionic character equally contribute to each encounter in such a way as to resolve it in an Epic encounter timescale (usually in the first round, or before the encounter even begins)?




Assuming they are all beneath CR mooks, and sometimes maybe not? Sure. However I'm confident mundane/muggles/non-spellcasters, non-psionic characters can do the same thing even below epic level.

Again, this is par for the course. However I don't necessarily agree a similar fate would occur to an Epic Sorcerer, but that is outside of the scope of this discussion. There is no need to compare mundanes to anything in this discussion as it is simply to gauge what a mundane can achieve to remain relevant against epic level threats.





Feat, Skill, Skill/Class Feature/Feat, Skill/Class Feature/Feat/Item. Yes, they can indeed do and have all of these things. However, I question if relying on minions or simply having a hoard of henchmen qualifies as an Epic mundane/muggles/non-spellcasters, non-psionic characters abilities. I believe this simply adds to the body count if nothing else. As alien as it might sound, my money is still on the Mu Spore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/muSpore.htm) or the Neh-Thalggu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/nehThalggu.htm) against Master Chief and the entirety of the UNSC fighting with them at their back.



Somewhat arbitrary, but I generally discount Diplomancers from being anything beyond a blatant exploitation of the games rules. Perfectly acceptable for this case however.



This is somehow different from walking around with a spellcaster in your party how? Again, my inquiry was what an Epic mundane/muggles/non-spellcasters, non-psionic character can achieve, I hardly think "strap a spellcaster to their belt" is an acceptable response.





Artifacts are purely the purview of the DM. I do not think it is something that can be reliably banked upon. Laser Rifles are an OPTIONAL rule in the DMG for futuristic weapons, but doubtful to be found in your average dungeons and dragons campaign world. If you can find a 3.5 encounter or stat block with a Laser Rifle with a price and other noteworthy statistics, I'll be happy to change my mind. As for 1-shotting gods, if you have such a build, by all means. Present it. Furthermore:



This is contentious and again entirely subject to an extremely lenient DM. Most DMs that I've played with would never allow a player to run around with say, Jaerom Darkwind's Red Mage robes for example.



Wealth by level abuse is a solid play, but to do so to the point where you are essentially a spellcaster in everything, but class feature, is a sense disappointing.



Interesting. Was this your adventuring party? Could you show me a mythweaver sheet of such characters or direct me to a PDF? I'm deeply curious.

Ah. So, what you're really asking is, "how can muggles play the Epic 'same game test', and get a reasonable / passing score"? Or "How can muggles, in a world with no casters, defeat 'CR appropriate' challenges"? Senility willing, I'll circle back to this. Let's make with the clarifications.

So, first off, I am recounting the half dozen or so epic parties that had muggles (I am, obviously, discounting the epic "all Illithid party" from this discussion). Sadly, not only do I not post my own builds as a rule, I also wouldn't post other people's builds without their permission, even if I knew them. So, sadly, I'm no help there.

The muggles in question were not "essentially a spellcaster in everything, but class feature". They did, however, carry such essential items as a Scroll of True Resurrection, to cover the things that were simply impossible otherwise.

That said… I believe that the first story of Resurrection was of some dude walking into Hell, talking to the Lord of Hell, and walking out with the person, which all sounds to me like stuff muggles can do, so, IMO, "Resurrection" should not be restricted to spells. (Granted, the second Resurrection story I know involves a dude with some serious mojo.)

GMs should be "lenient" with muggles - especially if there's concern of them underperforming. That said, there was absolutely nothing contentious about the RAW items in question - they were simply following rules given for pricing a Winged Travel Cloak of Protection +5, for example.

Now, sure, there was the occasional "contentious" items, like one that gave at-will instant search. Except… that's not contentious at all: there's only 14,400 rounds in a day, so it's equivalent to 7,200 Eternal Wands. The existence of such an item is in no way contentious, only the pricing thereof. WBL is not some fundamental Law of the universe, so, if you think that that item is worth a million times as much, and that's what it takes for muggles to be effective and the game to be fun, then bloody give the muggles a million times WBL. There's nothing sacred about the WBL formulas - they're just (IIRC) what you'd get with average random treasure results, and selling everything for ½. Still, this was mostly just stuff to help a few of the muggles with skill games or the like.

I'm not 100% sure if any of the builds could 1-shot and Great Cleave through CR-appropriate challenges, and do so without caster support / buffs, and do so without going infinite/arbitrary (although I'll contend that the usual Playground definition of "arbitrary" is too limiting, and question if we should really care by epic), but they certainly weren't limited to single-digit CR mooks, even *with* those restrictions. Granted, yes, "1-shotting CR appropriate threats" isn't exactly new to epic level, but it's still important to note that that's among their capabilities.

"Survive dozens of explosions that did kill an equally epic level sorcerer several times over", then. It's to help explain the scope of the feat. Perhaps… "survive ground zero in a series of explosions that would have killed most any equal-CR monster"? Or, more poetically (and less accurately), "suicide bomb… and survive"?

Minions were useful for having skills that the muggles didn't. And for being a thousand pairs of hands / eyes. It added breadth to what the muggle could accomplish when, say, he wasn't just a Barbarian, he was Stoic the Vast, leader of a tribe of Dragon riders. And his minions had skills and knowledge that he lacked. Also, the muggle will fare much better against a "mu spore" if he doesn't think it's a way to make baby cows. :smalltongue:

If you don't have something cooler than whatever this "Jaerom Darkwind" schmuck (whoever he is) has, your GM, IMO, is doing something wrong. Your character should be cool, your stuff should be cool. End of. This includes custom items (which most modules include cool new stuff that didn't exist before the module was published) and even artifacts, as appropriate.

Action economy is King. That's been a known thing for quite some time. The sentient items need not be "casters" (although that's certainly in keeping with D&D's origins); rather, they could also be making spot checks, solving puzzles, whatever. Or, sure, your sentient Ring of Invisibility could use its action to turn you invisible after you attack (and before you move / 5-foot step). Whatever.

Talk about "what your GMs would allow", "what can reliably be banked on", what is "contentious" or "requires a lenient GM"? These are… troubling. If you are trying to build a "muggle-friendly" world yourself, throw all that baggage away. If you have some other, specific goal in mind, you may need to clarify, so that I can attempt to bend your mind to my will make a diplomacy check to get you to look at it in the most muggle-friendly light. :smallwink:



I believe in making muggles awesome, and in optimizing them to the extent necessary to make that happen, or (although most of the epic muggles I remember didn't need it) interpreting or changing the rules however necessary to make that happen.

[Troacctid]

One pretty good epic feat for non-casters is Epic Destiny. I mean, it's really four epic feats, but still, it's sweet.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

One pretty good epic feat for non-casters is Epic Destiny. I mean, it's really four epic feats, but still, it's sweet.And where is the Epic Destiny feat found?

[Troacctid]

And where is the Epic Destiny feat found?
One of the first-party Dragon Magazines. Linkaroni and cheese (http://web.archive.org/web/20100916093852/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428)

[ShurikVch]

First off, there should be no such thing as an epic level mundane. An epic level muggle? Sure. An epic level martial character? Definitely. But by epic, they should be anything but mundane.Let me quote about it:
The word 'mundane' has come to mean 'boring' and 'dull', and it really shouldn't - it should mean the opposite. Because it comes from the Latin 'Mundus' meaning 'the world'. And the world is anything but dull: The world is wonderful. There's real poetry in the real world.

[Bphill561]

It also depends a bit on if the party played from low levels on up or started with an epic campaign. This can even be a problem if you were planning on mid 12-15 level cap and end up going for 20. I would suggest a down period if you can fit it into the story where the characters break and come back together several years later. This allows the DM to rebalance current party wealth and gives characters poorly built for epic play to try out the retaining rules to adjust things.

Certainly starting at epic also opens up racial options where HD and LA are not as much of a drawback for characters. Of course maybe you don't think of unusual races as mundane, but maybe they are just as common or more so than +0 LA races due to lifespans and overall starting toughness at birth.

I very successfully played a marshal character in a party of Four level 24 Wizards, but I pulled out all the stops (Leadership, Landlord, Grafts, and an unintended use of Shaper of ways to eliminate racial hd). Social skills are also useful when dealing with fellow epic NPC's that properly ward their strongholds and throne rooms against magic that makes skill checks superfluous. But as others said above, you really have to focus your build to do one thing if you are going to forgo magic.

[icefractal]

If you're going TO, they set up the same infinite loops as casters, but using items. More expensive, but not a problem with epic-level wealth.

Mid-Op, they cover enough bases with items to not get instantly-boned, and try to slay foes within a single round - that really helps with the survival. Out of combat, probably the best mundane tactic is to lean on sky high social skills. But with some support (Darkstalker, HiPS), ridiculous stealth has some benefits too. And with UMD, you can cast from scrolls as needed.

Low-Op, they just hit things, but now they have feats that give +2 to attack. Feel the epic-ness.