Another sorcerer fix + discussion

[Biotroll]

Unimportant rambling:
Hello playgrounders,

I had many ideas for sorcerer characters but I never played one because in the end it never felt right. Since I couldn’t sleep I started thinking about various fixes and why they also never felt right. Increasing spells known offered more leeway for niche spells, but it was still watered down wizard. The UA that allowed you to swap spells known each day felt better but not quite right, so of course I came with my fix that feels right to me. For me sorcerer is caster that knows few spells that he can cast really well (metamagic) and can try to cast other spells even if he never tried it before. So I tried to give them back „spontaneous casting“ feel.

Fix itself:
Spells known work as before, but now sorcerer get extra feature.
Spontaneous casting – Sorcerer can try to cast any spell from sorcerer spell list that is not one of his known spells. To see if he succeeds he needs to pass a charisma check DC 10+spell level. Whether he succeeds or fails, spell slot and material components (if any) are consumed. Any spell cast this way cannot be affected by any metamagic.

And that‘s it. I intentionally keep it simple and I am aware of several problems (multiclassing), but wording and loop hole protection can be refined later. What I want to discuss right now is:

1) Would this make sorcerer feel as unique spellcaster? Does it fit your idea of sorcerer?
2) Is the DC high enough? Should the calculation be changed in any way?
3) Should there be any additional cost to this feature or is the possibility of failure enough?
4) Anyone tried similar fix? Do you have link to it? How did it do in actual play?

I‘m mostly worried about the cost. I never played sorcerer myself so it‘s hard for me to adjust it to right level. Maybe add cost in spell points equal to spell level? Or would that be too much? How about increasing casting time as if under effect of slow spell?

My idea to solve multiclassing – tie the feature to sorcerer levels. It is usable for 1st lvl spells at 2nd lvl, for 2nd lvl spells at 4th lvl, for 3rd lvl spells at 6th lvl etc.

Thanks for listening to my rambling and any input is appreciated.

[Kane0]

1) It does help the sorc feel more unique, yes. It doesn't patch all the holes but it's a step in the right direction.
2/3) I would argue for at least one free use per long rest, like the Evocation Wiz and their overchannel feature, then scale the DC by times you've used it rather than spell level. Losing your action and slot is punishment enough.
4) Yes, I have. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?555697-Houserules-and-homebrew) In the limited playtesting at my table it didn't see use more than a handful of times (for a few reasons).

[Dr. Cliché]

I can see where you're coming from but for me it seems more like something for a Wild Mage than for all sorcerers.

Just my opinion but I think extra spells for sorcerers should be based on the theme of their bloodline, rather than a chance to maybe cast any spell on their list.

[Kane0]

The biggest thing you might want to add to this is more unique sorc spells, as even if you get to use this feature to grab a spell from your list as needed that list is still just a watered down copy of the wizard's.

[Aeriox]

A bard dip would be really good for this if you wanted to make the most out of it. Jack of all trades and bardic inspiration would both apply. I don’t think this is really a bad thing, but keep it in mind.

[HPisBS]

Overall, I like the idea. Not as much as I like the idea of adding thematic bonus spells to each Origin (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?608257-Thematic-Sorcerer-Subclass-Spells), since that guarantees your sorc actually feels like he's infused with that flavor of magic, but still.

Although, it would need to say "...can try to cast any spell from the sorcerer spell list which is of a level he can cast as a sorcerer..." for the sake of multiclassing.



A bard dip would be really good for this if you wanted to make the most out of it. Jack of all trades and bardic inspiration would both apply. I donÂ’t think this is really a bad thing, but keep it in mind.

Jack of All Trades, absolutely. However, you'd either need to get Bardic Inspiration from some other character, or go all the way to Lore Bard 14 yourself. At that point, this kind of spontaneous sorcerous casting would just be a neat afterthought.

[Lockwolfe]

I agree that origin spells are a cleaner fix.

The main issue I have with sorcerers is that they don't get enough sorcery points.

[HPisBS]

I agree that origin spells are a cleaner fix.

Then check out that thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?608257-Thematic-Sorcerer-Subclass-Spells), and reveal your thoughts on the proposed lists!


The main issue I have with sorcerers is that they don't get enough sorcery points.

On that score, I've always thought sorcs should've gotten a 1/5 max sp Sorcerous Restoration early on. Maybe starting at level 5.

The capstone could be better Flexible Casting - i.e. minus 1 sp cost to make more spell slots, and allow creating 6th level slots for 8 sp.

[Kane0]

The main issue I have with sorcerers is that they don't get enough sorcery points.




On that score, I've always thought sorcs should've gotten a 1/5 max sp Sorcerous Restoration early on. Maybe starting at level 5.


Or decouple something from sorcery points, like the slot creation. Have them just for metamagic and subclass powers and have a sorcerous version of spell recovery separate.

[Biotroll]

First of all, thanks everyone for answers. It's a wild brainstorming for me as I usually try to stick to RAW. Trying to make something out of spell point variant might also work to make sorcerer feel better, but I don't have any experience with it so I can't tell how good idea it is.


1) It does help the sorc feel more unique, yes. It doesn't patch all the holes but it's a step in the right direction.
2/3) I would argue for at least one free use per long rest, like the Evocation Wiz and their overchannel feature, then scale the DC by times you've used it rather than spell level. Losing your action and slot is punishment enough.
4) Yes, I have. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?555697-Houserules-and-homebrew) In the limited playtesting at my table it didn't see use more than a handful of times (for a few reasons).

Good to know I wasn't the only one with this idea. I agree that DC calculation right now is very simple so changing it might help. Also I checked your link and it seems good but for my taste it comes quite late in character progress. What were responses from players that tried to use it? Did it feel good?


I can see where you're coming from but for me it seems more like something for a Wild Mage than for all sorcerers.

Just my opinion but I think extra spells for sorcerers should be based on the theme of their bloodline, rather than a chance to maybe cast any spell on their list.

I would see Wild Mage getting some bonuses when using this feature (roll with advantage maybe?), but facing Wild Surge when it fails.

My issue with bloodline themed extra spells is that it helps but it doesn't feel enough. Also people have different expectations for each bloodline (dragon origin is usually blasting, which is hard to do for green dragon and even if you could reskin some spells to be poison type, for me green dragon is more about charm/suggestion/domination spells). Wild Mage is extremely hard to pin down and making it fully random (rolling for spells etc.) makes it hard to use for players imo.


A bard dip would be really good for this if you wanted to make the most out of it. Jack of all trades and bardic inspiration would both apply. I donÂ’t think this is really a bad thing, but keep it in mind.

Yes, bard dip would help with Jack of all trades, but as already noted you would need 14 lvls in lore bard to apply inspiration to yourself. Also, since it would be simple check, there are other ways to get most out of it I guess (enhance ability, help action could be theoretically used as well, glibness would make every attempt a success and much more I'm surely forgetting right now). Honestly I would be more worried about what would it allow for sorcadins as they are powerful enough already.

[Dr. Cliché]

My issue with bloodline themed extra spells is that it helps but it doesn't feel enough.

I'd agree but then I feel the same way about just about every Sorcerer-fix that isn't a complete rewrite.

IMO the class needs a complete redesign as the current version is being completely throttled by Metamagic.

[MoiMagnus]

Does it fit your idea of sorcerer?


No. Because it would force me to learn (as a player) about a long list of spells (in fact the whole list of available spells) rather than improvising solutions with the limited but flexible tools I have.

I get the ideas of "a sorcerer should be able to try things he is does not know how to do", but IMO your fix doesn't convey that since you're still restricted to an existing list of spells you have to go through each time you want to use this feature.

What would convey my vision of "improvising with magic"? For example, a 'divine smite' for skill checks: the possibility to burn spell slots or sorcery points to get proficiency/expertise/advantage/bonus on a skill check. But I'm not gonna improvise a table on-the-fly because it's been too much time since my last 5e game to improvise anything remotely balanced.

[Throne12]

All the sorcerer needs is more spells know, origins spell list (like cleric domain) and more spells add to there spell list.

[Nidgit]

Seems good, but allow me to add a Wild Sorcerer variant:

At some decently high level (14?), a Wild Sorcerer can attempt to replicate a spell from any spell list so long as they have previously seen or read about it.

[TheUser]

Your solution bogs down play as a player now pages through their entire spell selection with 1 action that has umpteen bajillion possibilities. Not very elegant or simple.

Allowing for swapping 1 spell per long rest so long as the new spell and old spell are the same level and giving the sorcerer +1 spells known per tier (+1 at levels 1-4, +2 for 5-10 etc.) fixes all sorcerer issues.

[Amechra]

Or decouple something from sorcery points, like the slot creation. Have them just for metamagic and subclass powers and have a sorcerous version of spell recovery separate.

I was fiddling with a very weird version of the Sorcerer a while back - they got scaling short-rest spell slots like the Warlock, except they got more of them, some spells cost multiple spell slots, casting higher level spells reduced the number of spells you could recover on a short rest until you had a long rest, that kinda thing. I eventually discarded it because it was a little over-complex.

The one feature is had that I'm actually really proud of was its version of recovering spell slots - to give a vastly simplified version, imagine a Warlock could spend a spell slot as a bonus action to gain two spell slots, but doing so reduced the number of spell slots they could recover through short rests until they took a long rest. I had other things in there to prevent you from generating infinite spell slots, but that's really the gist of it.

---

I kinda wish they fleshed out the playtest version of the Sorcerer a bit more. The whole idea of the Sorcerer mutating due to their magical blood is pretty dang compelling to me, and no one would be able to call them a bargain-bin wizard.

[Segev]

I’m pretty sure the design idea behind sorcerers was quantity and mastery over variety. That is, they cast more magic per day than anyone else (without having to take a breather every couple of spells), and metamagic lets them do more and more interesting things with a limited selection of spells.

But to do that, metamagic needs to be less restrictive in how it’s applied, they need more metamagics known, and they need to have more metamagics released. Just like warlocks got more invocations in Xanathar’s Guide.

They also need better recovery of sorcery points. Maybe spending and rolling a hit die during short rest. Or casting from hit points. That might be better as a bloodline power.

[Kane0]

I’m pretty sure the design idea behind sorcerers was quantity and mastery over variety. That is, they cast more magic per day than anyone else (without having to take a breather every couple of spells), and metamagic lets them do more and more interesting things with a limited selection of spells.


Indeed, both of these fall a little short of the mark.

[Trustypeaches]

They also need better recovery of sorcery points. Maybe spending and rolling a hit die during short rest. Or casting from hit points. That might be better as a bloodline power.
"When you take a short rest, you can recover sorcery points equal to half your sorcerer level (rounded up). You cannot recover sorcery points in this way until you complete a long rest"

Basically the sorcery point equivalent of Arcane Recovery.

[Segev]

"When you take a short rest, you can recover sorcery points equal to half your sorcerer level (rounded up). You cannot recover sorcery points in this way until you complete a long rest"

Basically the sorcery point equivalent of Arcane Recovery.

Maybe. Honestly, sorcerers should get MORE than Arcane Recovery gives; they're supposed to be casting more spells, not the same number or less. I'd actually forgotten about Arcane Recovery in thinking about this issue, too.


This means a 2nd level sorcerer, as currently written, essentially has +1 1st level spell slot from his SP (which he can't do anything else with), while a level 2 wizard has +1 1st level spell slot from Arcane Recovery. Oof.


Edit to add: Here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610243-Metamagic-Rods-and-Sorcerer-s-Stones&p=24444745#post24444745) are some magic item ideas this thread inspired me to design. Not 100% sure on balance.

[Kane0]

This means a 2nd level sorcerer, as currently written, essentially has +1 1st level spell slot from his SP (which he can't do anything else with), while a level 2 wizard has +1 1st level spell slot from Arcane Recovery. Oof.


And thats before using the same resource on metamagic and class features.

[Segev]

And thats before using the same resource on metamagic and class features.

At 2nd level, they can't use it for anything but a bonus 1st level spell, unless one of the subclasses has a level-1 or level-2 ability I'm unaware of. Even Shadow Sorcerer doesn't give one until level 3.

But I agree with the frustration expressed, even if there are technicalities I feel obliged to disagree with you on here. At 2nd level, specifically, the sorcerer is definitely worse off than the wizard in all ways save number of cantrips known. The wizard has gained his first subclass feature, catching up with the sorcerer having one at level 1, and the wizard has by far more spells known and prepared, and an equal number of effective spell slots (one more level 1 slot than shown on the chart that they both share).


...what if first-level spell slots only cost 1 SP to make?

[Kane0]

Indeed. If a wizard uses their Arcane recovery for the highest level slots possible (which you could argue isn't the most efficient, but YMMV) then here's how many SP the sorc has leftover afterwards:

1st: -2 SP (since they don't get Font of Magic until level 2)
2nd: 0 SP
3rd: 0 SP
4th: 1 SP
5th: 0 SP
6th: 1 SP
7th: 2 SP
8th: 2 SP
9th: 2 SP
10th: 3 SP
11th: 2 SP
12th: 3 SP
13th: 3 SP
14th: 4 SP
15th: 3 SP
16th: 4 SP
17th: 4 SP
18th: 5 SP (not accounting for Spell Mastery)
19th: 5 SP (not accounting for Spell Mastery)
20th: 6 SP (not accounting for Spell Mastery, Signature Spell or Sorcerous Restoration)

So never much left over for the Sorc to use on their metamagic, whether or not those be superior to the Wizard's equivalent features.

And the discrepancy in spell list and spells known/prepped of course, the problem between the two classes is multifaceted.

[HPisBS]

To be fair, Flexible Casting (and SP in general) does have an advantage over Arcane Recovery: on-the-fly use, and versatility. On-the-fly versatility, even.

Sure, the sorc may spend all his SP on recharging spell slots just like the wizard, but unlike the wizard, the sorc can do it mid-combat. Or, he can elect to spend his SP on empowering his Fireballs, or just twin his Haste, Dominate Person, etc and effectively cast slightly more extra spell levels than the wizard.


(I'm not saying this is enough, just playing devil's advocate.)

[Kane0]

Or ahead of time even. The timing of creating your slots is the (only?) advantage sorcs have over wizard recovery

[Vogie]

I allow my sorcerers to gain a single mana point back (sorc points + Spell points combined) whenever they crit on a spell attack, their target crit fails a saving throw, or if they kill a monster of CR level a third of their level or lower.

[Kane0]

I allow my sorcerers to gain a single mana point back (sorc points + Spell points combined) whenever they crit on a spell attack, their target crit fails a saving throw, or if they kill a monster of CR level a third of their level or lower.

Erm, do you mean 1/3 their level or higher? Bag of rats and all that.

[TwrLrd]

I was floating sorcery point recharge ideas too. Mine was letting sorcerers roll their hit dice, substituting it for 1d4 maybe, to recharge their sorcerery points during a short rest. And let monks do the same for ki points but thats off topic. Not had a chance to test such things though, but it does make me want to play a sorcerer when I get the chance *eventually*.

I like the thought of adding temporary spells known though, maybe an alternative is a similar pattern to spell slot creation, follow a similar cap to 5th level spells and costing per level (2 for 1st, 3 for 2nd... 7 for 5th). I kind of like the idea of saying sorcerers can use this ability to look at their own list by default and their origin granting the ability another list they can look at, or maybe make it more of a metamagic option so a sorcerer can invest in being able to pull anything out of his hat.

[Mr Adventurer]

Arcane Recovery is once per long rest, so doing a direct comparison with an every-short-rest ability probably isn't appropriate

[Segev]

Arcane Recovery is once per long rest, so doing a direct comparison with an every-short-rest ability probably isn't appropriate

Sorcery points are long-rest recovered, as well, unless you house rule it. One house rule being discussed is the possibility of some sort of short rest recovery of them, but comparing as-written SP and AR is comparing long rest to long rest feature.