Deathtongue
2020-04-08, 07:28 PM
I'm running a game for a small group of people (3 players) and I'd like to try out a Gestalt Class system. However, I think the one from 3E D&D is a little too strong for 5E D&D's lower numbers and I couldn't find anything I liked. So here's my proposition:
Gestalt Classing Premise:
Your default class and level progress you normally choose and gain levels with is known as your main line. If you use the Gestalt Classing system, class levels from this system are known as your secondary line.
At level 1, pick a different class from what is in your main line to be your secondary line. You are now level 1 in your main line and level 1 in your secondary line. At level 4 in your main line, and every even level thereafter, you advance one level in your secondary line. This situation is typically noted in the style of Main Line <level> | Secondary Line <level>, i.e. "Fighter 4 | Cleric 2". From then on out, you gain all of the class features (including subclasses) from the levels of your secondary line in addition to the class features in your main line.
Experience Points and Leveling:
You gain experience points and gain levels as normal.
Race:
You only have one race.
Background:
You only have the background from your main line.
Hit Points:
At 1st, 4th, and every even character level thereafter you gain the highest numerical hit die between your main and your secondary line. At all other levels, you gain the hit points from your main line.
Starting Equipment and Gold:
Add the two packages from your main line and your secondary line.
Saving Throw Proficiencies:
You do not gain the default saving throw proficiencies of the class from your secondary line.
If a class feature from a secondary line gives you proficiency in a saving throw that you already have as a result of your main line, you can add twice your proficiency bonus to that saving throw.
Skill and Tool Proficiencies:
You gain one additional skill granted by your secondary line at first level. You also gain an additional tool proficiency. If you gain additional proficiencies from specific class features, you gain those as normal.
Ability Score Increases
You gain additional ASIs from your secondary line as normal. If all of your ability scores are at 20 or higher, you can exceed the ability score cap of 20.
Expertise:
If you have expertise from both your main line and your secondary line in the same skill or tool proficiency, you have advantage on that ability check.
Multiclassing:
If you are using this rule, you cannot multiclass in your secondary line. You otherwise follow all rules as you would for multiclassing, except as noted in the Gestalt Classing rules.
Your secondary class does not effect your minimum ability scores for multiclassing in your main line. However, if you multiclass within your main line you still must meet minimum stat requirements from your other main line class.
For ease of notation, multiclassing in your main line while using this system would typically be denoted with backslashes, i.e. Paladin 6 / Fighter 4 | Barbarian 5.
Unarmored Defense:
If you have this feature from both your main class and your secondary class, you may choose to use either formula after each long rest. Then add a +2 bonus to your AC.
Extra Attack:
Extra attacks, either from this feature or related features such as the Warlock's Thirsting Blade invocation, add together if you get the feature from your main class and your secondary class.
Channel Divinity:
Uses of channel divinity from your main and secondary line combine and you can use this combined total for Channel Divinity uses from either line.
Spellcasting and Spellcasting Ability:
The spell slots you gain from your main and secondary line are independent. For example, a Cleric 6 | Bard 3 has eight 1st-level spell slots, five 2nd-level spell slots, and three 3rd-level spell slots.
You can use your spell slots on spells or other class features (such as the Paladin's smite) freely between your main and secondary line. However, if you use a cantrip or a spell slot in such a way as to refer to your spellcasting ability (such as for a spell attack modifier or spell save DC), you use the ability score that comes from the class that corresponds to the cantrip or spell slot.
You can select the same cantrip and spell known twice, so long as they come from a different main and secondary line.
Greywander
2020-04-09, 02:39 AM
Let me preface this by saying that I've already created my own system for handling gestalts, so a lot of this will be comparing your system to mine and discussing what I think each of us has done better and why. First thing's first: the simplest way to handle gestalts is to use the multiclass system. Basically, every time they gain a level, they gain a second level but in a different class, and technically their character level is half the sum of their class levels. This does mean e.g. that you double up on things like hit points and hit dice. I wasn't big on doubling the HP, but I started from the multiclass system and tweaked it to better fit what I wanted.
Gestalt Classing Premise:
Your default class and level progress you normally choose and gain levels with is known as your main line. If you use the Gestalt Classing system, class levels from this system are known as your secondary line.
So, because my system is based on the multiclass system, there's no distinction between your "main line" and "secondary line". The only time it really matters is at 1st level, where your "main" class determines things like starting HP, proficiencies, or equipment. I find this useful because I don't have to bother remembering which class is my "main" class and which is my "secondary" class. I can simply be a 7th level fighter and also a 7th level wizard.
I'm not saying what you're doing is bad, only that it's more complicated, and one of the design goals for my system was to eliminate any distinction between your "main line" and "secondary line".
At level 1, pick a different class from what is in your main line to be your secondary line. You are now level 1 in your main line and level 1 in your secondary line. At level 4 in your main line, and every even level thereafter, you advance one level in your secondary line. This situation is typically noted in the style of Main Line <level> | Secondary Line <level>, i.e. "Fighter 4 | Cleric 2". From then on out, you gain all of the class features (including subclasses) from the levels of your secondary line in addition to the class features in your main line.
This seems curious to me. It sounds like you wanted to emphasize the "main line" by having the "secondary line" start 2 levels behind and advance only have as fast, capping out at 10th level when you hit 20. Again, not saying this is bad, it's just... oddly specific.
The way I've set up my gestalt system lets you easily scale it up or down. You could gain levels in 3 or 4 classes with each level up, or maybe you only gain that extra class level on even (or odd) levels, or every third level. It sounds like just giving the extra class level on every even level would achieve a similar effect to what you're going for while being a bit simpler to understand.
Experience Points and Leveling:
You gain experience points and gain levels as normal.
Race:
You only have one race.
Background:
You only have the background from your main line.
While there might be room to fudge these, you're wise to leave them alone. Of the three, the XP needed to level might make the most sense to adjust, but all you're doing is drawing out the time it takes to level up. And the DM has control over handing out XP anyway.
Hit Points:
At 1st, 4th, and every even character level thereafter you gain the highest numerical hit die between your main and your secondary line. At all other levels, you gain the hit points from your main line.
There are a couple of ways to handle HP, and none of the ones I considered are what you have here. That said, it works. Edit: Nevermind, this is actually similar to one of the systems I talk about in the doc I link to at the end of the post.
For me, I wanted to make it not matter which order you took your class levels, so here's the solution I came up with: Whenever you gain a level, use the larger of the two hit dice to determine your max HP increase. The other hit die then adds a small bonus, depending on its size: a d6 gives nothing, a d8 gives +1, a d10 gives +2, and a d12 gives +3. You then gain the larger hit die. You can only have a number of hit dice equal to your level, so the other hit die is discarded. However, you can choose to replace one of your existing hit dice with a discarded hit die if the discarded die is larger.
Let me explain the reasoning for this. Let's say you start as a barbarian/fighter. You're getting that beefy d12 every level. Later on, you switch to a wizard/sorcerer, only getting a a wimpy d6. By 20th level, your HP are merely mediocre, and your hit dice are a mix of d12s and d6s. Now, let's say you create the exact same build, but take the levels in a different order. You start as a barbarian/wizard, still getting the d12. Then you switch to fighter/sorcerer, now getting a d10. You end up with pretty high HP, and hit dice that are a mix of d12s and d10s. Same build, same number of levels in each class, but different HP and hit dice outcomes.
Now let's try again, but applying my multiclass rules. You start as a barbarian/fighter. You're getting a d12, but also a +2 bonus to HP from the discarded d10. And the d10 isn't just thrown away, it's banked for possible later use, as we'll see. You later switch to wizard/sorcerer. You're now only getting a d6, but that balances out with the +2 bonus we got earlier from the discarded d10. Not only that, but you can take those d10s out of the bank to replace that wimpy d6. Thus, you end up with the same HP on average and the same hit dice as if you started barbarian/wizard then switched to fighter/sorcerer.
If the hit dice are confusing, another way of thinking of it is that we always have the best possible combination of hit dice, up to our character level, from the class levels we've taken. The order those class levels were taken in doesn't matter.
Starting Equipment and Gold:
Add the two packages from your main line and your secondary line.
I suppose you could do this. You're giving a 1st level character an awful lot of starting equipment, though, including two backpacks. I just let them choose one or the other, and if they need something like a spellcasting focus or heavy armor, they have to scrape together what cash they have and buy it. If you are, say, a fighter/wizard, you will either start with the armor/weapon or the spell focus/spellbook, and have to buy what you're missing out of pocket. This does make it more difficult to fully utilize both classes, but you're still in a much stronger position than a non-gestalt character. By the end of the first quest, they should have enough cash that it won't matter anyway.
Which, I guess what I'm saying is that whichever way you go, it will only ever really affect their first adventure.
Saving Throw Proficiencies:
You do not gain the default saving throw proficiencies of the class from your secondary line.
This is fine. It's essentially the same as starting in one class, then multiclassing into another one. Another option, though, is to let them pick one strong save (DEX, CON, or WIS) and one weak save (STR, INT, or CHA) from either class. For example, a wizard/cleric would be locked into WIS as their strong save, but could choose either INT or CHA as their weak save.
If a class feature from a secondary line gives you proficiency in a saving throw that you already have as a result of your main line, you can add twice your proficiency bonus to that saving throw.
My concern is that this is too open to abuse. Nothing gives expertise in saving throws, so you should be cautious of doing so yourself. I would just allow them to gain proficiency in a different saving throw instead. For example, the Samurai and Gloomstalker both give WIS save proficiency at 7th level, but if you already have proficiency in WIS saves, then you get your choice of INT or CHA. What I might do is offer the saves you didn't take from that class instead. For example, a wizard/rogue already has proficiency in WIS saves (if wizard is your main), so when you get it from rogue at 14th level, you could get DEX saves instead (since rogue gives DEX save proficiency).
In general, be very careful about introducing stacking bonuses.
Skill and Tool Proficiencies:
You gain one additional skill granted by your secondary line at first level. You also gain an additional tool proficiency. If you gain additional proficiencies from specific class features, you gain those as normal.
It actually does make sense to hand out extra skill proficiencies in a small party.
What I would do is give the number of skill from both classes, minus 2 (remember that most classes only give 2, so this mostly only matters if you're grabbing rogue, bard, and/or ranger), and you can choose skills from the combined skill list of both classes. For things like weapon, armor, and tool proficiencies, you get both from both classes.
Ability Score Increases
You gain additional ASIs from your secondary line as normal. If all of your ability scores are at 20 or higher, you can exceed the ability score cap of 20.
Keep in mind that when you hit 20th level, you can spend XP to purchase epic boons. One of the uses of these boons is to purchase ASIs, which specifically can raise your ability scores to a cap of 30, rather than 20. Ability scores higher than 20 aren't meant to be available to PCs, especially before 20th level, though some magic items (which should be given out sparingly) allow you to bypass this.
That said, I doubt they'll be able to max all their stats out anyway, even with all those extra ASIs. Also, feats are still a thing, and there's a lot of feats that people often want but can't usually fit into their build.
Expertise:
If you have expertise from both your main line and your secondary line in the same skill or tool proficiency, you have advantage on that ability check.
No, if you already have expertise in a skill, you can't get expertise in it again. If they're given expertise in the same skill specifically, twice, then it's wasted. If they get to choose a skill to gain expertise in, and they later gain expertise from another source, I'd let them go back and repick the first choice. (That's actually a standard house rule for me: any time you choose something and get it later from somewhere else, you can go back and repick that earlier choice.)
Is it possible you're forgetting the purpose of a gestalt character? Gestalts aren't supposed to be stronger (though they invariably are), what they're supposed to be is more flexible. You can be both a fighter and a wizard. The action economy prevents you from both attacking and casting a spell on the same turn, though. So at any given time, you can either be a fighter or a wizard, but not both at the same time. The flexibility to switch back and forth is what makes a gestalt character what they are. Not raw power.
Multiclassing:
If you are using this rule, you cannot multiclass in your secondary line. You otherwise follow all rules as you would for multiclassing, except as noted in the Gestalt Classing rules.
Your secondary class does not effect your minimum ability scores for multiclassing in your main line. However, if you multiclass within your main line you still must meet minimum stat requirements from your other main line class.
For ease of notation, multiclassing in your main line while using this system would typically be denoted with backslashes, i.e. Paladin 6 / Fighter 4 | Barbarian 5.
You don't find it weird that the "secondary line" is locked in while our "main line" is free to dabble in anything and everything? Heck, what about making that build that's just 1 level in every class. Our "main line" class levels could actually be lower than our "secondary line". In a way, the secondary line choice is more important, because you're locked into it.
This is why I like the way I do it. Multiclassing is just as easy as it already is, because there's no real distinction between "main" or "secondary" lines.
One other things I'll mention is that I actually do allow you to use both levels on the same class, e.g. when you gain a level you could increase your level in wizard twice, instead of picking two different classes. But, your level in any one class can't be higher than your character level. So at 1st level, you can't increase the same class twice, but you could start as, say, a fighter/rogue, then when you level up go wizard/wizard. Since you're 2nd level, you can increase your level in wizard twice, making you a 2nd level wizard. Again, this is mostly just so you don't have to meticulously plan your build ahead of time, and make the order in which class levels are taken not matter as much as the total number of class levels.
Unarmored Defense:
If you have this feature from both your main class and your secondary class, you may choose to use either formula after each long rest. Then add a +2 bonus to your AC.
See my previous notes on stacking bonuses. This is a bad idea. A really bad idea.
Also, IIRC you can choose which AC formula to use at any time, no need to rest. If you're a tortle Draconic sorcerer / monk / barbarian with Mage Armor, you can use any of those AC formulas at any time. The thing is, there's never a reason to use a weaker formula, so you'll always use the one that's the strongest. The only thing that might change is whether or not you meet the conditions, e.g. if you grab a shield then the monk's Unarmored Defense no longer works, but you could fall back to the barbarian's.
Extra Attack:
Extra attacks, either from this feature or related features such as the Warlock's Thirsting Blade invocation, add together if you get the feature from your main class and your secondary class.
Again with stacking bonuses. There's a reason they don't let them add together in the first place.
That said, it is kind of sad to see a class feature go to waste, especially since that's usually the only thing you get at that level for that class. My house rule is that a redundant Extra Attack gives you a +1 to one ability score of your choice, like a half ASI. So that at least you get something.
Channel Divinity:
Uses of channel divinity from your main and secondary line combine and you can use this combined total for Channel Divinity uses from either line.
Again, I would just treat it like any multiclass character with multiple sources of Channel Divinity. Which, now that I think about it, I'm not sure how it's actually handled.
Spellcasting and Spellcasting Ability:
The spell slots you gain from your main and secondary line are independent. For example, a Cleric 6 | Bard 3 has eight 1st-level spell slots, five 2nd-level spell slots, and three 3rd-level spell slots.
I'm going to give my obligatory recommendation not to stack things like this. The main benefit is having access to both bard and cleric spells, they don't need additional spell slots on top of that.
That said, spell slots are actually really interesting in how they could be handled, and I waffle back and forth sometimes. If we're treating it like multiclassing, then levels in both your classes count toward your caster level. This means you could be a 10th level character who is a 20th level caster. You have 9th level slots, but only know 5th level spells. Even weirder is that there is no progression past caster level 20, so if you're leveling in two full caster classes, you have all the spell slots you're ever going to get by 10th level. Sometimes, I'll cap your caster level at your character level, but I'm not actually sure which is a better way to handle it.
And yes, this means that warlocks make great multiclass choices with other casters, since you get the pact magic slots on top of your normal spell slots.
You can use your spell slots on spells or other class features (such as the Paladin's smite) freely between your main and secondary line. However, if you use a cantrip or a spell slot in such a way as to refer to your spellcasting ability (such as for a spell attack modifier or spell save DC), you use the ability score that comes from the class that corresponds to the cantrip or spell slot.
What? So, if I'm a wizard/cleric, and my WIS is crap, I can cast Command using a wizard slot to use INT for the saving throw? You're basically letting players choose which ability score is their spellcasting stat? I'm sure this seemed like a good idea in your head, but it's not.
Wizard spells use INT. Cleric spells use WIS. Bard spells use CHA. Etc.
Also, cantrips don't use spell slots. Cantrips are also tied to a specific class. So if you learn Light from the wizard class and again from the cleric class, one is a wizard spell and the other a cleric spell. Just because you know the Light cantrip and have cleric levels doesn't automatically let you cast it as a cleric spell if you learned it from the wizard list.
You can select the same cantrip and spell known twice, so long as they come from a different main and secondary line.
This is already standard, see above. You'd almost never want to learn the same spell twice, but there might be some edge cases, such as both classes giving a benefit to spells from that class, allowing you to cast it as one or the other depending on which benefits you wanted.
Anyway, I hope that helps. Here's a link to my (slightly aged) multiclass doc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M1klFB07A7zeulumCZ6jqyd2XM8qkk2LaMVfC0sk_UY/edit?usp=sharing), which goes over some of the different ways things could be handled. At the end, I give my personal preferences (which are pretty much outlined above). If it's to your liking, you might like the "half gestalt" variant at the end of the doc. I'm not saying my system is perfect, but yours definitely has some kinks that need to be ironed out (mostly related to stacking things).
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