Monster Mash (Redux)

[Blue Jay]

In the tradition of Thurbane's Previous Thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583866-3-5-Monster-Mash-LA-assigned-Monster-Builds)**...

**Is thread necromancy kosher on a "compilation" thread like that one? I don't know, so I'll just start this one.

I don't claim to be a great optimizer, but I thought it would be helpful if we invested some time into re-optimizing some monster stat blocks as a way of evaluating monsters for Inevitability's LA Reassignment project (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?518086-The-LA-assignment-archive&p=24152951).

Here's a recent monster, the hullathoin. Voters on the main project thread disagreed about whether or not the hullathoin was (or could be) a competitive grappler, so I've altered feat choices and added gear to help boost the hullathoin's grappling ability, just to see how it could actually stack up. I think this represents a middling level of optimization for this monster, so hopefully it's a good "apples-to-apples" comparison with a middle-optimized baseline.

Hullathoin
Huge Undead (16 RHD), Hit Dice 16d12 (104 hp), Init +2 (+2 Dex), Speed 60 ft
AC 34 (+20 natural, +4 Wis (monk's belt), +2 Dex, -2 Huge), Touch 14, Flat-footed 32
Fort +8, Ref +10, Will +16 (+3 cloak of resistance)
BAB +8 / +37 (+17 Str, +8 BAB, +8 Huge, +4 Improved Grapple)
unarmed strike +24 (2d6+18)
bite +24 (2d8+18)
2 stamps +22 (1d8+9)
2 tentacles +22 (1d6+9, reach 20ft)
Abilities Str 44, Dex 14, Con -, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12 (32-point buy: 18-16-8-10-10-10)
-----
Special Qualities Darkvision 60 ft
Blindsight 60 ft
Scent
DR 15 / magic & silver
Fast Healing 8
Immunity (cold, electricity and standard undead immunities)
Energy Resistance 15 (fire, sonic)
Spell Resistance 26
-----
Special Attacks
Improved Grab (bite, tentacles)
Poison (tentacles, 1d10 Str, Fort DC 19)
Deform (grapple, 1d6 Cha, Fort DC 18)
Ring of Pus (1/day, 30-ft radius, 5d6 acid and 1d6 Str plus nausea, Fort DC 18)
Rebuke Undead (4/day, +1, 2d6+21 damage)
Exude Bloodfiend Locusts
-----
Feats
1st: Improved Unarmed Strike
3rd: Improved Grapple
6th: Combat Reflexes (3 AoOs/rd)
9th: Power Attack
12th: Snatch
15th: Multiattack
-----
Items
Hands: Gloves of the titan's grasp (3/day, auto +8 enhancement to grapples for 7 rds)
Shoulders: Cloak of Resistance (+3)
Throat: Amulet of Mighty Fists (+10
Waist: Monk's Belt w/+6 Str enhancement

(80,000 gp spent out of 260,000 gp from standard WBL)

So, is this a "good" grappler? By that I mean, does it match the effectiveness of a "middle-optimized" grappler or area-control build that uses standard races and tier-4/tier-3 classes? I don't know. It's certainly not a bad grappler, and it has some unique advantages; but I'm not sure it's good enough to get by on just its grappling ability. To me, this creature is well-built to use grapples for area-denial and battlefield control: Huge size, very long reach, multiple-grappling and Blindsight give it a good ability to cover a big area and potentially lock down multiple enemies at once. Its actual numbers are less appealing, though: while its grapple modifier of +37 (+45 with the gloves of the titan's grasp) is good enough to out-grapple most things in the Monster Manual, it's still low enough that reliability could be an issue against other grapple-focused monsters. Plus, its got poor BAB and its grappling is tied to a secondary natural attack, so its to-hit reliability is also low and its damage output is poor. So, it won't be great for logging solo kills: will have to rely on logging "assists" instead.

Aside from grappling, it also rebukes undead, and jt summons bloodfiend locust swarms, which can create vampire spawn. So it should be relatively easy to keep yourself stocked with mediocre undead minions. You might luck into some better minions, but you can't rely on that. I don't think you'll get enough out of your minionmancy to really consider this a "strength" of yours, so you're still primarily hanging your hat on your grappling.

My verdict is that it can function as an adequate grappler/battlefield controller (assuming your DM isn't too aggressive with hard counters like freedom of movement), but its niche is pretty narrow and its depth is mediocre, at best. It's not going to pass muster in a high-op party, but I think it could hold its own at mid-op.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to optimize a hullathoin further than this, or on how to do something else with this monster?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You don't need Improved Unarmed Strike due to the Monk's Belt. Consider replacing that and Improved Grapple with Aberration Blood (flexible limbs) and Deepspawn, both in LoM. Those give you a total +4 to grapple, and two additional tentacle attacks which won't have the reach of the original tentacles but should still get the deform, poison, improved grab, etc., due to the wording of those abilities.

Any time you're grappling, you can use an attack action to roll a grapple check to deal unarmed strike damage (or in the case of Improved Grab or Snatch, the damage of the natural weapon that you grabbed them with). You can do this as often as you have iterative attacks. Grapple checks are not attack rolls, so any penalties you take on attack rolls (such as iterative attacks) do not penalize your grapple checks. This action still deals melee damage as though you delivered a melee attack, and it will benefit from melee damage bonuses such as Power Attack. The penalty you take for using Power Attack is only applied to attack rolls, not your grapple checks. Even Combat Expertise and/or fighting defensively can be used with this!

After looking over that monster again, it actually has a lot of potential, and you don't even need Snatch, just get Multiattack and Improved Multiattack and even TWF. If you do want Snatch, consider also Improved Snatch and Multisnatch in the Draconomicon.

You'll attack first with your tentacles as secondary natural weapons, and improved grab an opponent, who's now grappled (but you're not). You continue your full attack, using unarmed strikes as the primary weapon for iterative attacks, maybe use TWF for an off-hand unarmed strike, two stamps, and a bite. If targeting the grabbed creature, the attacks are made as though from outside the grapple, since you're not considered grappled, denying them their Dex bonus to AC. Additional tentacles that hit an already grappled target shouldn't even need an attack roll or grapple check per joining a grapple (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#joiningaGrapple).

[PraxisVetli]

Additional tentacles that hit an already grappled target shouldn't even need an attack roll or grapple check per joining a grapple (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#joiningaGrapple).

How does that interact on other multi-limbed grapplers?
Does an Illithid only need to hit, make the grapple, and then as long as the other three tentacles succeed on their attack roll, they're grappling?
Then next turn, extract, assuming the prey hasn't escaped?

I ask because I always thought each tentacle had to grapple successfully.

[Saintheart]

One element I was wondering about was whether you really need Combat Reflexes if the intent of this beast is to just go around hugging people. While grappling you don't threaten squares and therefore can't make any attacks of opportunity.

[Sutr]

Not taking a devotion/divine feat with its turning makes me sad. I was thinking similar for items, my feats: travel devotion, lifebond, lifesense, combat reflexes, combat expertise and improved trip. I think its way better to end someones movement with a trip and choose the distance in the encounter than to grapple though.

That was based on the other person's +0 argument though. Mine ends up being a highly mobile radar station that chooses the range of its encounters, that preferably has some kind of squishy with mounted combat to avoid the inevitable disintegration rays.


I also thought the item that added to spell resistance would be helpful DMG 2? I like the monks belt though didn't think about that.

[Blue Jay]

You don't need Improved Unarmed Strike due to the Monk's Belt. Consider replacing that and Improved Grapple with Aberration Blood (flexible limbs) and Deepspawn, both in LoM. Those give you a total +4 to grapple, and two additional tentacle attacks which won't have the reach of the original tentacles but should still get the deform, poison, improved grab, etc., due to the wording of those abilities.

That's a good idea. But, don't those feats have a "humanoid only" restriction?


One element I was wondering about was whether you really need Combat Reflexes if the intent of this beast is to just go around hugging people. While grappling you don't threaten squares and therefore can't make any attacks of opportunity.

There is an option to grapple with just your appendage, which means you aren't considered grappled yourself (meaning you don't take the usual penalties and still threaten an area). Normally, you take a -20 penalty to do that, but the hullathoin has a racial ability that lets it ignore that penalty. So, it actually does still threaten an area while it grapples, and I figured that that was it's best strength, so I built around that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's a good idea. But, don't those feats have a "humanoid only" restriction?

You're right, Aberration Blood does have that requirement, but none of the other feats in that chain do, and that's the one I didn't go back and look at...



How does that interact on other multi-limbed grapplers?
Does an Illithid only need to hit, make the grapple, and then as long as the other three tentacles succeed on their attack roll, they're grappling?
Then next turn, extract, assuming the prey hasn't escaped?

I ask because I always thought each tentacle had to grapple successfully.

When an Illithid uses improved grab, it's also considered grappled, it could try to hold the creature with that tentacle and not be considered grappled itself but it would take a -20 to its grapple checks to do so. An Illithid who waits until the round after he successfully grabs someone does get to join his remaining tentacles into the grapple for free, without making a check. A Hullathoin that grabs someone with a tentacle isn't considered to be in a grapple from the start at no penalty, due to its Improved Grapple special ability. So any additional attacks it makes are resolved as though they're made from outside the grapple, except for that tentacle that's holding them.

[PraxisVetli]

When an Illithid uses improved grab, it's also considered grappled, it could try to hold the creature with that tentacle and not be considered grappled itself but it would take a -20 to its grapple checks to do so. An Illithid who waits until the round after he successfully grabs someone does get to join his remaining tentacles into the grapple for free, without making a check. A Hullathoin that grabs someone with a tentacle isn't considered to be in a grapple from the start at no penalty, due to its Improved Grapple special ability. So any additional attacks it makes are resolved as though they're made from outside the grapple, except for that tentacle that's holding them.

Awesome, thanks!

[Blue Jay]

After looking over that monster again, it actually has a lot of potential, and you don't even need Snatch, just get Multiattack and Improved Multiattack and even TWF. If you do want Snatch, consider also Improved Snatch and Multisnatch in the Draconomicon.

Hm... I don't remember why I wanted Snatch in the first place. I think a few things converged on Snatch as a reasonably "mid-op" choice: my bite does much better damage than my tentacles, I have 3 AoOs per round and only 2 tentacles, and the "fling" option could be used to force the guy to enter my threatened area again. But I guess you're right: it's not really doing a lot for me, and I might get more out of some other feat. Improved Multiattack seems like a good choice.


You'll attack first with your tentacles as secondary natural weapons, and improved grab an opponent, who's now grappled (but you're not). You continue your full attack, using unarmed strikes as the primary weapon for iterative attacks, maybe use TWF for an off-hand unarmed strike, two stamps, and a bite. If targeting the grabbed creature, the attacks are made as though from outside the grapple, since you're not considered grappled, denying them their Dex bonus to AC. Additional tentacles that hit an already grappled target shouldn't even need an attack roll or grapple check per joining a grapple (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#joiningaGrapple).

I know there's a little bit of confusion about how many grapple checks I can make in a round. There was a "Rules of the Game" article that said something like "one grapple check per natural weapon you have that can grapple"; but I think the official text says "1 grapple check per BAB iterative."

So, let's say I grappled a guy with one tentacle last round. What am I allowed to do this round? It seems like I can make 1 grapple check with that tentacle, and then I can also make a tentacle attack, 2 stamps and a bite against whomever I want (including the guy I'm grappling), and there's no extra penalty on any of those. But what if I'm grappling two guys (one with each tentacle)? Can I then make 1 grapple check against each of them, along with 3 more natural attacks?


Not taking a devotion/divine feat with its turning makes me sad. I was thinking similar for items, my feats: travel devotion, lifebond, lifesense, combat reflexes, combat expertise and improved trip. I think its way better to end someones movement with a trip and choose the distance in the encounter than to grapple though.

Oh, tripping is a good idea, since it's a straight-up Str check, which you'll dominate much more than a grapple check. And I kind of do wish there was room in the build to boost both the grappling and the minionmancy. As it is, I think I'd just buy a few rebuke-boosting items (maybe a nightstick and a rod of undead mastery) and just deal with it being somewhat weak.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

One element I was wondering about was whether you really need Combat Reflexes if the intent of this beast is to just go around hugging people. While grappling you don't threaten squares and therefore can't make any attacks of opportunity.

Since the Hullathoin has Improved Grab it can take a penalty to grapple an opponent while not counting as grappled itself, so it only occupies one limb and still threatens. (Actually, that may be the case for any grappler, but with Improved Grab you definitely have that ability).

On that note, since the penalty of -20 is pretty dang steep, I'd recommend grabbing Multigrab and maybe Greater Multigrab, to reduce the penalty to -10 and 0 respectively. Though the Hullathoin will have trouble meeting the Dex requirement of the second one.

Oh, and one hilarious feat worth picking up is Scorpion's Grasp. Mostly redundant with Improved Grab... but instead of pulling them into your square, you move into their square. Along with (Greater) Multigrab and the Hullathoin's reach that makes for some sweet battlefield mobility even while full-attacking. Plus you can go around the battlefield collecting enemies and clumping them into your square like Katamari Damacy.

[Thurbane]

Nice to see this thread - I'll contribute as I get time. :smallsmile:

[Blue Jay]

On that note, since the penalty of -20 is pretty dang steep, I'd recommend grabbing Multigrab and maybe Greater Multigrab, to reduce the penalty to -10 and 0 respectively. Though the Hullathoin will have trouble meeting the Dex requirement of the second one.

The hullathoin has a racial ability that does this already, so there's no need to invest in it. The racial ability only applies to its tentacles, though.


Oh, and one hilarious feat worth picking up is Scorpion's Grasp. Mostly redundant with Improved Grab... but instead of pulling them into your square, you move into their square. Along with (Greater) Multigrab and the Hullathoin's reach that makes for some sweet battlefield mobility even while full-attacking. Plus you can go around the battlefield collecting enemies and clumping them into your square like Katamari Damacy.

Oh, I didn't catch that distinction in Scorpion's Grasp. That's interesting. I seem to recall once having a discussion with someone about reach grappling: it seems like that's a wrinkle the designers didn't fully consider.


Nice to see this thread - I'll contribute as I get time. :smallsmile:

Welcome! Your contributions would be very much appreciated. And anyone else who wants to do some monster-op is welcome too: feel free to post your own monsters anytime.

[Blue Jay]

So, I got curious about how the hullathoin might stack up against another grappling monster. So, here's a quick build for an ECL-16 assassin vine.

I noticed that the assassin vine increases to Huge size with the addition of only 1 HD, so I advanced it to 5 HD. It doesn't seem like that was taken into account when the assassin vine was given its RLA of +0, so just to be on the safe side, I'm assuming a 5-HD (Huge) assassin vine gets RLA +1. I'm not actually sure how that affects reach, but I assumed that an assassin vine's vine reach is 2x (reach for a tall creature), giving this monster a 30-ft reach.

Then, it needs an Intelligence score. I chose to use the Celestial template, just to keep the LA low (and I prefer to have a Good-aligned PC creature).

I wanted to make this fairly simple and quick, so I just filled the rest of the build with 9 levels of monk, using the "Raging Monk" variant from Dragon #310 (Trade Flurry of Blows and some of the minor bonuses for Rage). I assumed that I'm allowed to trade Rage for Whirling Frenzy. This increases by speed to 35 ft, gives me Improved Grapple, Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip as bonus feats, Rage buffs to Str and 2 slams in a full attack.

Here's what it looks like now:

Celestial Assassin Vine
Huge NG Assassin Vine (5 RHD) Monk (Raging) 9, Hit Dice 14d8+84 (147 hp), Init +0 (+0 Dex), Speed 35 ft
AC 20 (+9 natural, +3 Wis (monk), -2 Huge), Touch 11, Flat-footed 20
Fort +20, Ref +11, Will +13
BAB +10 / +40 (+18 Str, +10 BAB, +8 Huge, +4 Improved Grapple)
unarmed strike +27 (3d6+19)
slam +27 (2d6+19, reach 30 ft)
Abilities Str 46, Dex 10, Con 22, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 6 (32-point buy: 16-12-12-16-12-8)
-----
Special Qualities Darkvision 60 ft
Blindsight 30 ft
DR 10 / magic
Immunity (crit, diseases, mind-affecting, paralysis, poison, polymorph, sleep, stun)
Energy Resistance 10 (acid, cold, electricity)
Spell Resistance 19
-----
Special Attacks
Improved Grab (slam)
Scorpion's Grasp (unarmed strike)
Entangle (at will, free action, 30-ft radius, entangled, Ref DC 19)
-----
Feats
1st: Multigrab
3rd: Greater Multigrab
6th: Power Attack
monk 1st: Improved Unarmed Strike
monk 1st: Improved Grapple
monk 2nd: Combat Reflexes
9th: Improved Natural Attack (Slam)
monk 6th: Improved Trip
12th: Scorpion's Grasp
-----
Items
(I'm using the same set of items (except the monk's belt), but assuming the vine gets no body slots, so I doubled costs for custom, slot-less items)

Gloves of the Titan's Grasp (3/day, auto +8 enhancement to grapples for 7 rds)
Cloak of Resistance (+3)
Amulet of Mighty Fists (+1)
Belt of Giant's Strength (+6)

(130,000 gp spent out of 260,000 gp from standard WBL)

The assassin vine has +40 as its base Grapple modifier, or +42 while raging. The gloves of the titan's grasp can boost that to +50, which is quite comfortable. I think the assassin vine's reach is 30 feet (again better than the hullathoin's), and it's got a Greater Multigrab effect (like the hullathoin's). Its damage-per-attack roll is better, also, though I haven't done the math to compare full attacks yet. The vine doesn't get the hullathoin's Poison, and it only has 2 AoO's per round. The assassin vine's defenses are decidedly weaker, but it does have about 40 more hit points, and I think Entangle is better than Ring of Pus (mostly because "at will" trumps "1/day").

My assassin vine is a more narrowly focused monster, I think: it doesn't have any minionmancy, for one thing. There's a plant monster in Dungeon #141 called a "vine horror", which can create assassin vine minions. That might make a thematically equivalent minionmancer build, but I don't know that there's a great deal of optimization potential in that. One other thing I always found peculiar was that the assassin vine lacks a Climb speed: that seems like something it ought to have.

So, what do y'all think? I kind of think the two monsters end up in pretty much the same league. The assassin vine may be somewhat better at grappling, but the hullathoin has a little more versatility and better defenses.

[ExLibrisMortis]

So, what do y'all think? I kind of think the two monsters end up in pretty much the same league. The assassin vine may be somewhat better at grappling, but the hullathoin has a little more versatility and better defenses.
Hullathoin levels are about on par with monk levels: sounds about right :smalltongue:.


You have Combat Reflexes on the assassin vine, but it has only 10 Dexterity. If you want to use that feat, I'd drop STR/CON/WIS and add some gloves of dexterity at the very least.

[Blue Jay]

Hullathoin levels are about on par with monk levels: sounds about right :smalltongue:.

I figured the raging monk counts as tier 4 in this build, because "associated levels" or something. :smalltongue:

In all seriousness, do you think I'm "mid-opping" right here, or is this lower optimization than you were expecting? It often seems like people in the thread have different perspectives on how much optimization counts as "mid op," and I'm routinely low-balling it relative to most others.


You have Combat Reflexes on the assassin vine, but it has only 10 Dexterity. If you want to use that feat, I'd drop STR/CON/WIS and add some gloves of dexterity at the very least.

Hm... yeah, Dex 10 is pathetic. But, can it grapple more than 2 guys at a time anyway? I figure it's got 1 slam and 1 unarmed strike, and I probably shouldn't try to milk it for more than that. Technically, the monster has side branches at 6-in intervals, so even the Large one (which is 20 feet long) could hypothetically claim up to 40 appendages that can presumably deliver unarmed strikes. What do you think is a reasonable cut-off point for that kind of Multi-Weapon Fighting stuff?

{Edit to Add: Oh, and I need Dex 13 for Scorpion's Grasp too, so I'd better plan a couple build changes.}

[ExLibrisMortis]

I figured the raging monk counts as tier 4 in this build, because "associated levels" or something. :smalltongue:
Raging monk is still 3/4 base attack, and not especially good at grappling. A better option--and still not very high-power--would be City Brawler bear totem barbarian (IUS/Improved Grapple and +4 to grapple checks while raging in five full-bab levels, comes with two uses of Rage but not Pounce). Note that that is the UA bear totem, not CC's spirit bear totem. You could round out the rest with psywar or crusader, but I guess that's a little beyond tier 4.

Even if crusader is t3, picking up Crushing Weight of the Mountain with feats really shouldn't count as high-OP--it's two feats for Constrict, and you need at least ECL 10 for the second feat.

For reference, here's (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23413346&postcount=10) the last time I used Multigrab for something.


In all seriousness, do you think I'm "mid-opping" right here, or is this lower optimization than you were expecting? It often seems like people in the thread have different perspectives on how much optimization counts as "mid op," and I'm routinely low-balling it relative to most others.
Sure, but mid-OP is a wide range achieved in many different ways. I feel that raging monk is just bad, especially nine levels of it, and there's 5 plant HD and +2 LA burdening a relatively feat-intensive melee build. On the other hand, the result out-grapples MM monsters around its ECL+5, so when rated as a grappling build, it's not low-OP either.


Hm... yeah, Dex 10 is pathetic. But, can it grapple more than 2 guys at a time anyway?
You can use AoOs for things besides grapples. You even have Improved Trip in there :smalltongue:. It's important not to lose sight of non-grappling abilities, because grappling does get shut down by certain enemies.

[Blue Jay]

Raging monk is still 3/4 base attack, and not especially good at grappling.

No, you're right: it really isn't. It's an upgrade over the basic monk, but it's still not good. I feel like I'm making pretty good use of it, though.

Raging monk checked a lot of boxes that I wanted for the assassin vine: the feats, the Rage, a little extra AC and 30 feet of base speed (which the assassin vine desperately needs). I thought about avenger/hunter druid, but using druid seemed unfair. Ultimately, I guess I rushed it a bit: I could have tried to make a barbarian / warblade / fighter build, but it felt too complicated for me this morning.


Even if crusader is t3, picking up Crushing Weight of the Mountain with feats really shouldn't count as high-OP--it's two feats for Constrict, and you need at least ECL 10 for the second feat.

Oh, I wasn't actually shooting for t4 specifically, or anything like that: monk just seemed convenient to me at the moment, and I felt a sudden need to justify myself when you called me out for using monk. :smalltongue:

I don't think just using a T3 class would make it "high-op" and it certainly wouldn't violate the spirit of what I'm trying to do with these test builds. I don't really think any particular build choice could be labeled as "high-op" by itself: I feel like it's more about the number of different sources and options you start integrating, and about the synergies you create among them. I think there's also a part of it that involves how much you're willing to compromise or change your underlying character concept to get better mechanics. I don't know... it's difficult to quantify.


Sure, but mid-OP is a wide range achieved in many different ways. I feel that raging monk is just bad, especially nine levels of it, and there's 5 plant HD and +2 LA burdening a relatively feat-intensive melee build. On the other hand, the result out-grapples MM monsters around its ECL+5, so when rated as a grappling build, it's not low-OP either.

It's pretty clear to me now that my "mid-op" is less optimized than most people's. I've noticed that, when the optimization starts getting really serious, I tend to either get bored with it or get grumpy and competitive, and I don't like either of those outcomes.


You can use AoOs for things besides grapples. You even have Improved Trip in there :smalltongue:. It's important not to lose sight of non-grappling abilities, because grappling does get shut down by certain enemies.

Yeah, that was some serious tunnel vision. And there's clearly some room in this build to loosen up on the grappling. Okay, so if I change the vine's point-buy to 12 Str, 16 Dex (instead of the reverse), it'll get 2 more AoOs. Then, it can use Slam+Grab on people 15 to 30 feet away, and unarmed Trips on people within 15 feet. And since my Entangle ability can reach 30 feet away too,

Maybe I'll need to try building a standard-race grapple build next. But those are always so boring... :smallsigh:

[Blue Jay]

Outsider vs Fighter: A Thought Exercise

Emperor Tippy made an appearance in the LA-Assignment thread and made a comment about the value of Outsider Hit Dice being equivalent to a "high Tier-5" standard class. So, that got me curious, and I wanted to tinker with the comparison a little bit.

Here, I'm going to make a 4th-level human fighter, and compare him to a character with a hypothetical class comprised of nothing except what you get from Outsider Hit Dice. I'm going to make the same basic choices for the two (point-buy, feats and gear purchases), and see how they line up. The basic chassis is a "sword-and-board" front-liner. For the Outsider, I assumed light armor proficiency (which also gives shield proficiency), and built a skill list with twice as many class skills as the fighter has (I used the hound archon's list, and added Intimidate, Knowledge (the Planes), Swim and Tumble). I just distributed skill points evenly across all class skills for both characters.

Human Fighter
Medium Humanoid, Hit Dice 4d10+12 (34 hp), Init +2 (+2 Dex), Speed 30 ft
AC 18 (+4 armor, +2 shield, +2 Dex), Touch 12, Flat-footed 16
Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +3 (+1 cloak of resistance)
BAB/Grapple: +4 / +7 (+3 Str)
+1 longsword +9 melee (1d8+6, 19-20/x2)
mwk composite (+3) longbow (1d8+3, x3)
Abilities Str 16, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10 (32-point buy: 15-14-16-10-12-10, +1 Str at 4th)
-----
Special Qualities: -
-----
Feats
human: Blind-Fight
1st: Power Attack
fighter 1st: Weapon Focus (longsword)
fighter 2nd: Improved Bull Rush
3rd: Cleave
fighter 4th: Weapon Specialization (longsword)
-----
Skills
Climb +6
Craft (weaponsmith) +3
Handle Animal +3
Intimidate +3
Jump +6
Ride +5
Swim +6
-----
Items
Armor: mithral chain shirt
Shield: darkwood heavy shield
Shoulders: cloak of resistance (+1)

(5374 gp spent out of 5400 gp from standard WBL)

Generic Outsider
Medium Outsider, Hit Dice 4d8+12 (30 hp), Init +2 (+2 Dex), Speed 30 ft
AC 18 (+4 armor, +2 shield, +2 Dex), Touch 12, Flat-footed 16
Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +6 (+1 cloak of resistance)
BAB/Grapple: +4 / +7 (+3 Str)
+1 longsword +9 melee (1d8+4, 19-20/x2)
mwk composite (+3) longbow (1d8+3, x3)
Abilities Str 16, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10 (32-point buy: 15-14-16-10-12-10, +1 Str at 4th)
-----
Special Qualities:
Darkvision 60 ft
-----
Feats
1st: Power Attack
3rd: Weapon Focus (longsword)
-----
Skills
Concentration +7
Diplomacy +4
Craft (weaponsmith) +4
Hide +6
Intimidate +4
Jump +7
Knowledge (the Planes) +4
Listen +5
Move Silently +6
Sense Motive +5
Spot +5
Survival +5
Swim +7
Tumble +6
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Items
Armor: mithral chain shirt
Shield: darkwood heavy shield
Shoulders: cloak of resistance (+1)

(5374 gp spent out of 5400 gp from standard WBL)

Obviously, I haven't really optimized here. But I hope these can at least serve as a baseline to start a comparison.

When making the same build choices, the fighter ends up with some advantages in combat: 4 extra hit points, and 4 additional feats. I honestly just picked 4 random feats as filler, but they all give the fighter some niche advantages over the outsider in combat, and he's poised to pick up Shock Trooper at 6th level.

On the other hand, the outsider has some advantages too: better save bonuses, Darkvision and a lot more skill points. The outsider not only has better skill bonuses on all overlapping skills, but also has more depth, with social skills, perception skills and stealth.

They do seem pretty evenly matched, but I still feel like the fighter has the advantage in the long-run. So, with this as a low-op starting point, what could be done to optimize either the fighter or the outsider to tilt the comparison in their favor? If the fighter optimized more heavily, with a two-handed weapon, ranks in Jump to get Leap Attack soon, and maybe some fighter ACFs, does the outsider have any real chance of keeping up in terms of combat ability? If the outsider instead emphasized his advantages in scouting and social skills, maybe shuffling his point-buy more towards mental stats, would that be enough to keep him on the same "power level" as the optimized fighter?

[Blue Jay]

The serpentir from Monster Manual V has been on my mind recently, so I thought I'd share a gestalt build I made with it.

For those who don't know, this is the serpentir:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/26/4f/29/264f29aa3a8644b9e89673509ae5cbab.jpg

It's basically two skeletons joined at the hip, with no legs between them. The most interesting ability is "Dual Actions," which means they literally get 2 full rounds' worth of actions each round. With 8 racial HD (undead), they're clearly not ideal for a caster character (which could really abuse double actions), but I still think you can do some entertaining things with a double monster like this. So, here was my idea.

I always have my eyes open for archery options, so my first thought was to make one of the component skeletons an archer, while the other was a more traditional warrior. So, I went with a simple Swift Hunter build, with a barbarian level added in (Undead 8 || Scout 3 / Ranger 4 / Barbarian 1).

The combat strategy is to basically charge/pounce with the warrior skeleton, then 5-foot step back and unload a ranged full attack with the archer skeleton. The imagery of that is entertaining to me, but it's also got some mechanical synergy with the charge attack unlocking Skirmish for the archery.

A beefier version of that would be to have both component skeletons work as uber-chargers. That way, you don't have to split your feats between two combat styles, and you can invest more in your Str score. You can repeatedly charge back and forth between two targets, hitting both of them with a Pounce attack every round. And, because of the poor wording of the Dual Actions ability, you could actually argue that both component skeletons get to make their full complement of attacks at the end of each pounce (because, the ability says the serpentir can make 2 full attacks, but doesn't say that each of the two "full attacks" is only performed by one of the two component skeletons, though this is obviously the intent).

Serpentir Archer Pouncer
Large Undead, Hit Dice 8d12 (52 hp), Init +9 (+8 Dex, +1 Impr Init), Speed 60 ft (50 ft base, +10 ft Scout 3rd), Climb 20 ft
AC 22 (+8 Dex, +4 armor, +1 natural, -1 Large), Touch 17, Flat-footed 14
Fort +7, Ref +15, Will +9
BAB/Grapple: +7 / +15 (+4 Str, +4 Large)
+1 composite (+4) longbow +15 ranged (2d6+5, x3)
+1 greatsword +11 melee (3d6+6, 19-20/x2)
Abilities Str 18, Dex 26, Con --, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 12 (32-point buy: 14-16-8-16-10-12)
-----
Special Qualities:
Darkvision 60 ft
Sense Emotions (~Blindsense) 60 ft
All-Around Vision +4
Undead Immunities
Stability +4
DR 5/bludgeoning
Dual Actions
Trapfinding
Battle Fortitude +1
Uncanny Dodge
Trackless Step
Wild Empathy +5
Solitary Hunter (FE bonus applies to attack rolls, no animal companion)
-----
Special Attacks
Improved Grab + Churning Ribs
Pounce
Rage (Whirling Frenzy) 1/day
Skirmish +2d6 / +2 AC
Favored Enemy (undead) +2
-----
Feats
1st: Point Blank Shot
3rd: Power Attack
ranger 1st: Track
combat style: Rapid Shot
6th: Swift Hunter
ranger 3rd: Endurance
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Skills
Climb +12
Hide +23
Listen +18
Move Silently +27
Search +4
Spot +18

I'm not really sure how to handle armor for this creature. Technically, I guess it would need to use armor designed for a Large nonhumanoid (at 4x cost). But I would probably let a serpentir PC wear 2 Medium humanoid armors instead, probably with the caveat that only one of the two armors could be magically enhanced).

[ExLibrisMortis]

I like the idea of activating ranged skirmish with a pouncing charge.

When I see Dual Actions, I immediately think of Decisive Strike. And that begs the question: if you activate DS twice in one turn, do you deal triple damage on AoOs? I'm thinking no, but I'm open to persuasion.

A serpentir barbarian 1//monk 9 could use Decisive Strike into Mantis Leap. Mantis Leap allows you to add twice your Strength modifier to charge damage. As a fixed bonus, that would get doubled by Decisive Strike. Serpentir have +4 Strength, so you're quickly looking at +28 to damage. Monk 9 has the pleasing side-effect of eliminating the DS attack penalty.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Regarding the Outsider HD, here's a way to really capitalize on it:

A Marrulurk from Sandstorm is a small size 3 HD, +1 LA monstrous humanoid. It gets 2d6 sneak attack, poison use and death attack, a nauseating breath attack, +2 natural armor, Str +2, Dex +6, Con +4, Wis +6, Cha +4, point blank shot and rapid shot as bonus feats, +4 Hide and Move Silently on top of being small size, darkvision and low-light vision, and a very unique and uncanny hearing ability. It's a monstrous humanoid, so its 3 HD give it full BAB, good Reflex and Will saves, but only two base skill points.

Half-Fiend 1 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) gives the Outsider creature type, which per the Half-Fiend template (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm) retroactively updates your racial HD skill points to a base 8. That also gets +2 Dex, +1 natural armor, two claw attacks, and a few spell-like abilities. It's effectively another +1 of LA, and you're never obligated to gain the rest of the template class levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a). If you use the variant Half-Fiend (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) for that and base it on a Babau (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#babau), your racial HD gain all the Babau's listed skills as class skills.

So you're looking at a 3 HD, +2 LA small creature with full BAB, two good saves, 8 base skill points with basically the same class skills as a Rogue, the same sneak attack as a Rogue 3, pretty amazing ability score bonuses, two bonus feats, and a pile of other goodies. Pick up Ardent 2 with Practiced Manifester and start taking Psychic Assassin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d), and buy off that level adjustment asap. Use the Quick trait (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) to fix its 20 ft. base land speed, its Con bonus will more than make up for that.