Making a great "monk" without ToB, psionics, or friendly spellcasters

[heavyfuel]

I need help creating a monk-type character without ToB or friendly spellcasters in the party.

By "monk-type" I mean light or no armor, unarmed strike (not natural weapons), decent damage, a few skills.

No ToB or psionics means no ToB or psionics. No swordsage, Tashalatora, snapkick, SUA. Nada.

No friendly spellcaster other than possbily myself. DMM is also out, so no Cleric-zilla.

I assume Monk might actually be the class here. I was thinking maybe dipping Wiz/Sorc + Practiced Spellcaster to go Enlightened Fist, or maybe dipping C. Cleric to go Sacred Fist and Fist of Raziel.

Never actually played with any of these classes, though they seem decent given their casting ability. While the Cleric route has better chasis and Wis synergy, Enlightened Fist does allow for (Greater) Mage Armor (Luminous Armor is also banned), Greater Mighty Wallop, and Greater Magic Weapon.

Any other suggestions?

[Vizzerdrix]

Why not frostrager? You'd want a fighter/barb base for it. Are you allowed dragon mag? Eberron? Forgotten Realms? I know the feat Mark of Xoriat can get you DR5/byshk but will take 3 feats to get.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863

That whole thread, basically. Mix and match the parts you want.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Monk 1 or 2 into Psychic Warrior or Ardent, with Tashalatora. Take Beast Strike and use Claws of the Beast to buff your unarmed strike damage.

[Unavenger]

Rogue specialising in unarmed strikes. Take a monk's belt if you feel like it, but the extra damage you deal from sneak attacks will far outdo the unarmed damage anyway. A level in ninja might also do some work if you wanna do it without any armour.

Or, yeah, the tashlatora route also works.

[Gruftzwerg]

I would go for a clawlock ubercharger. Gives you high unarmed dmg (beast strike + eldritch claws = 2x unarmed + claw dmg), and some utility spells (e.g. fly 24h; NMR for HIPS). Since Beast Strike is an unarmed strike, you can flurry with it.
If you want some super saiyajin or predator flavor, it's a good way to go. Have a look at my claw of malar build if you want to see an optimized build. Has high consistent dmg, because he can charge every turn (see "Stagger") to profit from charge multipliers. Further, multiple layers of deception and perception help for the ultimate predator feeling.

[liquidformat]

As said above a 2 levels of monk into ardent/Psychic warrior is a great choice.

For a not monk unarmed fighter you could try City Brawler ACF Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Fist of the Forest 3/Frostrager 5.

If you want to be a little bit more off the wall try one of the following:
City Brawler and Bear Totem ACF Barbarian 3/Wild Shape Ranger 5/FotF2/Primeval 10
Overwhelming Attack Monk 2/Wild Shape Ranger 5/FotF2/Primeval 10
on either of these my favorite for is Dire Puma, though dire lion and dire ape work well too, could also go with something like raptoran and dire eagle.

[heavyfuel]

Thanks for the suggestions so far! Keep'em coming!


Why not frostrager? You'd want a fighter/barb base for it. Are you allowed dragon mag? Eberron? Forgotten Realms? I know the feat Mark of Xoriat can get you DR5/byshk but will take 3 feats to get.

That doesn't really fit the monk flavor, though, does it? Sure it gains minor benefits from Unarmed Strike, but that's it. It's still very much a Barbarian-like class I feel. Still, something to keep in mind. Thanks!

Dragon Mag is a no-go, but Dragon Compendium and FR are good. Eberron is on a case-by-case basis (no warforged, no artificer, but some feats and PRCs might be available)


https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863

That whole thread, basically. Mix and match the parts you want.

Completely forgot about this thread! Thanks for the reminder, will definitely take a look!


Monk 1 or 2 into Psychic Warrior or Ardent, with Tashalatora. Take Beast Strike and use Claws of the Beast to buff your unarmed strike damage.


Rogue specialising in unarmed strikes. Take a monk's belt if you feel like it, but the extra damage you deal from sneak attacks will far outdo the unarmed damage anyway. A level in ninja might also do some work if you wanna do it without any armour.

Or, yeah, the tashlatora route also works.


As said above a 2 levels of monk into ardent/Psychic warrior is a great choice.

For a not monk unarmed fighter you could try City Brawler ACF Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Fist of the Forest 3/Frostrager 5.

If you want to be a little bit more off the wall try one of the following:
City Brawler and Bear Totem ACF Barbarian 3/Wild Shape Ranger 5/FotF2/Primeval 10
Overwhelming Attack Monk 2/Wild Shape Ranger 5/FotF2/Primeval 10
on either of these my favorite for is Dire Puma, though dire lion and dire ape work well too, could also go with something like raptoran and dire eagle.

I also completely forgot about psionics, but they're also unfortunately banned.

Rogue with unarmed strikes is crazy enough it might just work lol.

The City Brawler Barbarian build might work, but much like the previously mentioned frostrager, I feel like the flavor is off. Will keep it in mind regardless.


I would go for a clawlock ubercharger. Gives you high unarmed dmg (beast strike + eldritch claws = 2x unarmed + claw dmg), and some utility spells (e.g. fly 24h; NMR for HIPS). Since Beast Strike is an unarmed strike, you can flurry with it.
If you want some super saiyajin or predator flavor, it's a good way to go. Have a look at my claw of malar build if you want to see an optimized build. Has high consistent dmg, because he can charge every turn (see "Stagger") to profit from charge multipliers. Further, multiple layers of deception and perception help for the ultimate predator feeling.

Unfortunatelly Eldritch Claws are Dragon Mag and banned. Beast Strike is still a possibility, but I don' think is one worth the investment.

[Unavenger]

Rogue with unarmed strikes is crazy enough it might just work lol.

There are few good reasons to do it over a regular rogue who wields weapons, and many good reasons to do it over playing a monk, not least of which the fact that as long as you can flank an enemy, you'll always do more damage than a monk of the same level, every level. You have more skills, you'll have a better AC because you can actually wear at least some armour, you can finesse your unarmed strikes without having to feel bad, and you actually have class features that are more useful than discount feather fall. You can even UMD your own buff spells. Finally, rogues are also one of the best classes to actually use the double weapon property of the quarterstaff, so if you wanted to use that instead of unarmed strikes, that would equally work.

If you can use 3.0 content, Ninja of the Crescent Moon is a rogue which gains monklike AC bonuses; if not, a level in the regular ninja class will also work for the AC bonus if you want that.

If you want another way of dealing absurd damage with unarmed strikes, consider the duskblade, too? A kick that sends lightning coursing through someone seems pretty "Fantasy monk".

[Ramza00]

If you have Races of the Dragon and Spell Compendium you can do well with a Monk / Enlightened Fist.


Greater Mighty Wallop (Wiz / Sorc 3) can get you up to 5 size increases of your unarmed damaged. Well Monk 01 and Monk 20 1d6 to 2d10 damage is 5 size increases and with this spell you can get 10 size increases.
Blood Wind (Wiz / Sorc 1) makes your unarmed strikes (and any natural weapons) into ranged weapons for 1 round. Blood Wind has a swift action casting time. Oh it works well with a rod of extend so you can use it for 2 rounds. [Also your familiar can cast it on you via a wand.)
Wraithstrike (Wiz / Sorc 2) makes your melee attacks such as your unarmed strikes into touch attacks for 1 round.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You could go Monk 1/ Wizard or Sorcerer 4/ Enlightened Fist 5/ Master of the East Wind 10, using Ascetic Mage or either of Carmendine Monk or Kung-Fu Genius to switch your Monk abilities from Wis to Cha or Int respectively. That gets 18/20 spellcasting and 16/20 Monk abilities, but only a +12 BAB. If using Sorcerer you'll need to wait until 6th level to take Ascetic Mage, but the two that switch it to Int can be taken at 1st level.

[liquidformat]

The City Brawler Barbarian build might work, but much like the previously mentioned frostrager, I feel like the flavor is off. Will keep it in mind regardless.


Barbarian/FotF/Frostrager can actually fit well if themed as a self taught wilderness rogue rather than properly trained temple monk

As far as unarmed rogue goes I would suggest taking two levels of monk with Invisible Fist ACF (now you don't need HiPS) Carmendine Monk to use int instead of Wis and possibly aesthetic Rogue.

[Glimbur]

You're solid on "no natural weapons"? Because a Totemist from Magic of Incarnum can do unarmed combat ok, mobility, light armor... You'd have to work pretty hard on reflavoring; you are in the Rending Badger stance when you bind Girallion Arms to your Totem and all that. But you get some magic-ish abilities which are useful and are not psionic or ToB.

[daremetoidareyo]

A killoren battledancer 1/harmonious knight palidin of freedom x with smite to song, versatile unarmed strike and snowflake wardance can stack smites

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Vanilla monk has some pretty weak class features, no doubt about it. When it comes to alternate class features, though, Monk has some of the strongest in the game.

The Invisible Fist ACF is pretty sweet, from Exemplars of Evil (doesn't actually have any alignment requirements, though). At 2nd level it lets you turn invisible every three turns; at 9th it gives you permanent blink if your Wis is 16 or higher.

Speaking of alignment requirements, if you're okay worshiping an evil goddess (Shar), the Dark Moon Disciple ACFs are fantastic. Specifically, the 7th level one gives you permanent total concealment that can't be penetrated by anything but direct sunlight or daylight, most likely including true sight.

Those two ACFs are all you need to make a monk into a highly viable stealth character. Throw in the iaijutsu focus skill and/or some Sneak Attack and it'll give you a highly reliable way of doing solid damage, too. I like taking the Halfling Monk ACF to get Skirmish like a Scout instead of Flurry of Blows, multiclassing Rogue, and taking the Swift Ambusher feat to send my precision damage through the ceiling (+ iajutsu focus). That's the main trick I used for this competition build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24080559&postcount=51).

You mentioned Warforged being off the table; how about Changelings? With the Racial Emulation feat, they can pick up all sorts of cool racial substitution levels. Halfling Monk is great on the right build, Skarn Monk is pretty sweet if you were already getting a bunch of levels in Monk, and there are a bunch for other classes as well.

[Gruftzwerg]

Unfortunatelly Eldritch Claws are Dragon Mag and banned. Beast Strike is still a possibility, but I don' think is one worth the investment.

Well, than go for either claw weapons or a claw race.

If you combine Beast Strike with Sizing weapon enhancement you can still get a nice dmg boost since it affects both (unarmed and claws). Note that you can size up to colossal size with unarmed strikes since they always count as light weapon (for a -8 hit penalty due to inappropriate size. has a better ratio than full feated 2h Power Attack for unarmed strike dmg of monk 20)
Push monks unarmed strike fast for better results earlier:
- 7 lvls of regular unarmed strike progress (monk/prc)
- Monks belt for another 5lvl of progress
- Fist of the Forest (gives 2 steps of monk unarmed strike progress)
You could have the unarmed dmg of a monk20 with only 10 lvls. At lvl 10 you should be able to effort a Necklace of Natural Attack +1 Sizing to size em up to colossal (If you can handle the penalties with the enemies AC).

Further go for the Drunken Master 2 dip to get Stagger, so that you can charge every turn (due to unlimited direction changes while charging).
Add Sandals of the Tiger Leap to get double charge dmg.
= Profit from charge multiplier every turn.
Further Stagger lets you avoid ALL AoO while charging with a single (!) tumble check.
Avoid the lowlife henchmen and go straight for the big boys^^

[animewatcha]

Beast strike is dragon mag though.

[lord_khaine]

I support the Sacred Fist option. Thats pretty simple but flavorful.
And even without DMM cleric is still a solid and dependable class.

Though oh god this DM seems to have gone crazy with the ban hammer.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

If you have Races of the Dragon and Spell Compendium you can do well with a Monk / Enlightened Fist.


Greater Mighty Wallop (Wiz / Sorc 3) can get you up to 5 size increases of your unarmed damaged. Well Monk 01 and Monk 20 1d6 to 2d10 damage is 5 size increases and with this spell you can get 10 size increases.
Blood Wind (Wiz / Sorc 1) makes your unarmed strikes (and any natural weapons) into ranged weapons for 1 round. Blood Wind has a swift action casting time. Oh it works well with a rod of extend so you can use it for 2 rounds. [Also your familiar can cast it on you via a wand.)
Wraithstrike (Wiz / Sorc 1) makes your melee attacks such as your unarmed strikes into touch attacks for 1 round.

Sadly, Wraithstrike isn't level 1. IIRC It's level 2. Note that just like Blood Wind, it's also a swift action.

[Sian]

a cheeky option would be Shaman from Oriental Adventures, if you use the update from Dragon Mag 318 (which gives them slower Monk-like unarmed damage progression)

[Psyren]

It's Pathfinder material, but I'd just ask the GM to allow the Unchained Monk. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained/) Gets special attacks called style strikes (one of which grants a form of pounce), full BAB, proficiency+flurry with all monk weapons, and a boatload of special powers to choose from that still retain a monk flavor. It also has ACFs of its own if you want to customize it further.

[Albions_Angel]

If I may be so bold...

Ok, so you said unarmoured, and thats fine. I just wanted to share a build my friend once made. It... actually dominated.

I dont have all of it, but:

Water Orc (+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha) from Unearthed Arcana
Monk from PHB
Passive Way Monk Style (Fixes bonus feats to Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Feint) Unearthed Arcana
They took Combat Expertise as their level 1 feat, which freed up their level 1 monk bonus feat for Stunning Fist
Plate Armour...

Their Wis was already trash, so why not throw plate on there? Standard pattern was trip something with crazy high bonus. This could be done as an attack or an AoO. Follow up with stunning fist. They just... stopped encounters. They were tripping quadrapeds and centipedes and all sorts. Just shutting the enemy down, leaving the other characters free to wander around and smack the downed enemies. And their AC was decently high.

You could probably refactor it for a race with a Wis and Str bonus if you still wanted to be unarmoured. So good I want to try it for myself. One day.

[Tytalus]

If the optimization level of the group isn't too high, the elegant Monk2/Rogue++ can be a good choice.

All you need is the Ascetic Rogue feat and the Invisible Fist ACF, and you get full UAS progression, almost full SA progression and immediate action invisibility every 3 rounds. Nice, simple synergy.

Additional options: Carmendine Monk for INT synergy and a small boost to stunning fist, scorpion kama weapon to benefit from unarmed strike damage and weapon enhancements, Darkstalker feat for more ninja-like sneakiness, Knowledge Devotion feat + Collector of Stories skill trick for turning you massive skill points into bonuses to hit/damage, Changeling race for even more sneakiness and useful racial sub levels, and Craven for an even stronger SA.

---

On a similar optimization level, there's Monk2/Ranger++ for a bit more of a hunter/nature twist.

The Ascetic Hunter feat gives you full UAS progression (and the good ranger BAB makes you hit more often). With the Moon-Warded Ranger ACF (Dragon Magazine #340) you get WIS to AC a second time.

Flavor-wise, some ranger spells work quite well with the monk theme with only light re-flavoring.

You are well on your way to an SAD build. A level of Shiba Protector (OA) may be worth it for WIS to attack & damage despite the painful prerequisites, and the Intuitive Attack feat adds WIS to hit again. Zen Archery gives WIS to hit for ranged, too. If you are a halfling, Yondallah's Sense gives WIS to initiative. This build also benefits from Knowledge Devotion, with a decent spread of knowledge skills and lots of skill points, and Invisible Fist is so good, it fits here, too.

Mystic Ranger and/or the Sword of the Arcane Order feat would give you some nicer spellcasting options (SotAO can get you Mage Armor and Greater Mighty Wallop, for example), although it's not entirely clear whether Mystic Ranger counts as Ranger for things like Ascetic Hunter of the Moon-warded Ranger ACF, since it's a variant class.

[Unavenger]

Their Wis was already trash, so why not throw plate on there?

Armour check penalty to attack bonus.

[Kayblis]

I suggest going a full WIS-based character, for many reasons. Dump that STR down into the ground, we don't need it. DEX is overrated. CHA was already a dump stat. INT is fine at 10. The only things you need are maxed WIS and high CON. This'll net you huge to-hit, damage and Stunning Fist DCs.

-Get Intuitive Attack as soon as you can. That's WIS to hit.
-Take 7 levels of Monk. As your 9th level feat, pick Mantis Leap from Sword and Fist. That lets you attack as part of a jump, and jumping is part of a movement. You don't stop moving, so you can run laps around your enemies and punch them with each ~10ft of movement. That's how you get 10 attacks in a round by double-moving.
-Take a level in Shiba Protector as soon as you can. That's WIS to hit and damage.
-Get a way to get Pounce. Each attack from Mantis Leap counts as a charge, so it turns your 10 attacks a round into 10 full-attacks. If you can't fit it elsewhere, pick a level of Barbarian as your first level and then become Lawful. You'll lose rage, but retain the ACF that gives pounce.
-Pump move speed as high as you can. You can easily do it with an amulet that gives the Dark template, the Monk items, and other boosts. This also lets you Jump into the sky to get flying enemies.

By the end you'll be doing like 30 full-attacks a round, moving anywhere you want, and stunning the whole field. Enjoy.

[Albions_Angel]

Armour check penalty to attack bonus.

I said I didnt have the full build, but I think they had some way around that too without feats. Cant remember how now.

[Troacctid]

Here's my list of interesting monk prestige classes that are (IMO) better than the base class.

Disciple of Mephistopheles
Dragon Descendant
Enlightened Fist
Fist of Dal Quor
Fist of the Forest
Henshin Mystic
Jaunter
Master of the East Wind
Master of the North Wind
Master of the South Wind
Master of the West Wind
Psionic Fist
Sacred Fist
Serene Guardian
Shen
Shou Disciple
Tattooed Monk
Telflammar Shadowlord
Zerth Cenobite

[liquidformat]

Where are the Master of PRCs and Shen from I haven't come across them before?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Where are the Master of PRCs and Shen from I haven't come across them before?Probably Dragon Magazine. I seem to recall the first four from there, anyway.

[Troacctid]

Where are the Master of PRCs and Shen from I haven't come across them before?
Masters of the Four Winds are from Dragon #314. Shen is from Dragon #319.

[Ramza00]

Sadly, Wraithstrike isn't level 1. IIRC It's level 2. Note that just like Blood Wind, it's also a swift action.

Copy Paste and I forgot to change the number.

Yes Blood Wind and Wraithstrike are both swift actions. That is what rods of extend are for. Furthermore you can not use Wraithstrike with the 20ft range increment unarmed strike ranged weapons, but you can still use them as melee touch attacks if the enemy is within reach. And since Blood Wind takes a full attack action you can't use pounce.

Regardless you will be using all your 1st and 2nd level slots with Blood Wind and Wraithstrike unless you craft some wands due to having so many encounters per day.

[heavyfuel]

Thank you all for the suggestions! Life's been crazy and didn't have the time to individually reply, but know that I've read all of your suggestions.


Though oh god this DM seems to have gone crazy with the ban hammer.

You have no idea.

[nielsen151]

Kung Fu Genius (Dragon #319 pg 71) = Monk Wis to Int
Keen Intellect (Dragon #318 pg 38) = Use Int for Will Saves / Int for Heal, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival
Two Heavens (Secrets of the Dragon pg 12 - Rokugan) = Allows you to double your wisdom modifier for AC (or Int if you took Kung fu Genius)
Sleeping Tiger (Monk Varient Fighting Style) 1st and 2nd lvl monk bonus feat are Weapon Finesse & Improved Initiative
Canny Strike (Star and Shadow pg 51 - Midnight) 1d4 damage per point of Int bonus with light weapons (we house ruled int to damage)
Clever Fighting (Star and Shadow pg 52 - Midnight) dex to damage with light weapons
Zen Fortitude (Dragon #351 pg 87) Use Wis for Fort Saves (or INT is you took KFG) (prereq is ki power...convince DM that ki strike is a ki power)

These are my standard feats used in any monk build i create.

[Rhyltran]

Could go with my setup that worked. Monk/Fist of the Forest/Bear warrior. Just make sure you get rage to qualify for bear warrior unless the dm will rule that Feral Trance works for that.

[Gavinfoxx]

1.) Be a Barbarian
2.) Take Whirling Frenzy (System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana) or Ferocity (Cityscape Web Enhancement)
3.) Take Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion)
4.) Take Wolf Totem (System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana) or Bear Totem if you wish to grapple (same)
5.) Take Skilled City Dweller-ride for tumble (Cityscape Web Enhancement). Max Tumble. Note that you might only be able to Tumble with Ferocity, not Whirling Frenzy. Check with your GM!
6.) Take City Brawler (Dragon Magazine #349)
7.) Take Streetfighter (Cityscape Web Enhancement)
8.) Get a Monk's Belt (Dungeon Master's Guide or System Resource Document. Before you get access to this, just wear light armor like normal.)
9.) Get a Necklace of Natural attacks (Savage Species, this lets you enchant unarmed strike with things beyond +#'s; very useful! You can get the smoking property to get a miss chance on your body, for example, or magebane or sure-striking!)
10.) Get a Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic)
11.) Take mobility skill tricks of various sorts, especially to do with charging (Complete Scoundrel). Note that you might only be able to use these with Ferocity, not Whirling Frenzy. Check with your GM!
12.) You now have a fantastic and brutal, hard style martial artist!

[animewatcha]

dragon compendium has unarmed progression similar to monk and language. There is an 5 level prestige class in Unapproachable east ( can't remember name ) that gets unarmed damage to 2d6 and lets you flurry with any weapon.

[Emperor Tippy]

Rogue 1/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2/ Factotum 8/ Telflammar Shadowlord 4/ Binder 1/ Hit and Run Fighter 1/ Swashbuckler 3

Invisible Fist is from Exemplars of Evil and gives you Greater Invisibility 1 round in 3.
Martial Monk is Dragon #310 lets you take Fighter Bonus Feats as your Monk Bonus Feats (although as they are still Monk Bonus Feats, you don't need to meet their prerequisites to take or use them).
Hit and Run Fighter is from Drow of the Underdark and lets you get Dex to attacks within 30 feet.

Use the Ritual of Shadow Walking (Lords of Darkness, page 125) along with Binding Naberius and using Shape Soulmeld (Blink Shirt) to negate the Con damage (or just be a Necropolitan).

For feats, you want Craven for the +HD to damage and Darkstalker and Kung Fu Genius to switch Monk from Wis to Int.

Ideal race for this is (with LA buy off) a Dark Grey Elf Necropolitan.

Later game, you use Factotum to gain extra Standard Actions via Cunning Surge, use those standard actions to use the Ritual of Shadow Walking to trigger the Telflammar Shadowlords Shadow Pounce ability, and thus get a full attack.

Ideally, your routine is Cunning Surge -> Ritual of Shadow Walking+Shadowpounce full attack -> Decisive Strike as a full action -> Cunning Surge+Ritual of Shadow Walking+Shadowpounce until your foe(s) is/are dead.

Decisive Strike doubles your damage for the rest of the round. Said damage getting +2xInt, +Dex, +Str, +HD (if a sneak attack). Which Decisive Strike doubles (so +4xInt +2xDex +2x Str +2x HD).

If you are a Necropolitan you don't need the Binder (Exemplar is a nice pick up, or Shadowdancer if you aren't Dark) as being Undead lets you negate the Con damage from Shadow Walking.