Belkar <3 Minrah Chances?

[Angrith]

So what do we think the chances of Minrah and Belkar getting together are? I can see several reasons for and against such a relationship.

Pros:
Belkar is beginning to turn a new leaf, and we know his character arc is leading to death. To maximize the impact of his death, we need to be invested in what Belkar stands to lose. A new relationship founded upon his character growth would illustrate what he stands to gain from repenting. Dying would then take that away.

Of the order, he has the best chemistry with Minrah. Granted, he is the only one who is spending much time at all with her other than Durkon, so we're operating without the full picture. It could be that Minrah has great chemistry with every member of the order, ad we just haven't seen it yet.

A tie to Belkar, cements Minrah's status in the Order just a bit. She's no longer just the new girl or tagging along but both sides are emotionally invested in her presence.

Cons:
Foremost, Belkar doesn't have a lot of time left. i'm not well-versed in the timeline, but I think it's only days or weeks. That's not a lot of time for romance.

The Giant is on the record saying he wants to portray his female characters in a more wholesome manner. Adding a new one just for her to enter a romantic relationship with Belkar of all people may undercut this.

The usage of Minrah as a tool for supporting Belkar's character arc cheapens her own, which is sad because she's awesome.

Belkar himself is uncertain about romance right now as illustrated by his turning down of a lunch date with the gnome shopkeep (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html) who sold him his clasp. This may have been due to his swindling, but it's a long way from his actions with the Thieve's Guild girl (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0622.html).

In summary:
I see a romantic relationship between Belkar and Minrah as possible and even likely from a literary standpoint. Belkar has grown. Given time he may even grow enough to at least consider a meaningful relationship with someone other than his cat. Losing such an opportunity would drive home the tragedy of his (presumably) heroic death. There are, however, ample obstacles including the lack of time for such a relationship to realistically occur. Thoughts?

[CriticalFailure]

0.00000000

[katiecruel]

Belkar <> Minrah is where it's at.

[Fyraltari]

Minrah does not deserve Belkar.

[KorvinStarmast]

So what do we think the chances of Minrah and Belkar getting together are? I can see several reasons for and against such a relationship.
I'll just say that there is one "against" that is very powerful: it would be way out of character for Belkar to fall in love with anyone. As hard as I try to see this turning around to where he and Minrah have warm and even loving feelings for one another ... it does not seem to fit Belkar. I think Minrah's capable of love, and more.

[CriticalFailure]

Yeah Belkar jumping from having trouble adjusting to the idea that killing other sapient beings for funsies to being capable of a romantic relationship seems unlikely.

[Peelee]

0.00000000

What units are you using?

[understatement]

Good friendship vibes.

Chance of getting together = chance of Redcloak's niece hiding under Kraagor's statue.

[CriticalFailure]

What units are you using?

Unitless probability. Or percentage points. Zero is a great number because it doesn't change between them.

[Dentarthur]

Zero. Minrah is already promoting Belkar's character growth just fine in a non-romantic capacity.

[Angrith]

Good friendship vibes.

Chance of getting together = chance of Redcloak's niece hiding under Kraagor's statue.

So unity then.

The fact that she is helping in grow in a non-romantic capacity is a strong point for this to continue as a purely platonic relationship. While I lean towards "Belkar isn't getting a romance," I will play devil's advocate a bit.

Belkar is starved for positive encouragement from the Order. Minrah so far is giving it to him. As he keeps growing, he may well be attracted to Minrah as his primary source of encouragement.

[Emanick]

I’m rarely inclined to give something a 0% chance of happening, and a Belkar-Minrah relationship is far from the most outlandish thing I’ve seen proposed on here. It would serve some story purposes - I’m still struggling to understand what Minrah’s story role is, and this would give her more to do. Unlike some other people, I don’t think Belkar is actually incapable of being in a relationship at this point. We know he’s capable of attraction, and we know he’s now capable of trying to be somewhat considerate. Is he capable of being a good boyfriend yet? I don’t think so, but I think he’s just reaching the stage where he might be capable of wanting to be in an actual relationship. And he and Minrah have a good rapport. If either of them wind up being attracted to another character in this book, it’s probably going to be each other. And there’s obviously a lot of potential character development that could emerge from that.

With all that said... I just don’t see it happening. I give it like a 1% chance of coming up. I suspect that the main out-of-story reason why Minrah was added to the cast was that The Giant is actively trying to include more major female characters, and adding a major new female character serves that goal less effectively if she comes to be seen mainly as the love interest of an existing male character.

There’s also just not much time left. There would be time for flirtation, but probably not time for a real, lasting bond to develop. That somewhat limits the value that might come from this development.

On top of all this, I’m not sure Belkar has come far enough that The Giant feels comfortable placing him in a romantic pairing. While I imagine Minrah could hold her own against him, he’s still a historically awful person with a dreadful track record when it comes to how he treats women. Minrah may never end up knowing that, but for the audience, it may never be possible to see Belkar in a relationship with anyone without cringing, even if he’s not actually doing anything vile at the moment.

(Another possible argument is “why even bring this up? There’s no evidence of it.” That’s probably true, but every other main character has had a romantic arc (well, if you count the subplot about V’s spouse and divorce, which I suppose is sort of the opposite of a romantic arc), so I don’t think it’s out of the question to ask whether Belkar will get anything similar before he dies - or whether Minrah will, since she’s also arguably a main character now. And the number of potential pairings is rather limited. I think the answer to that question is “No” - but I don’t think it’s necessarily a dumb question.)

[Peelee]

Unitless probability. Or percentage points. Zero is a great number because it doesn't change between them.

Then you could have written "0" and had it be infinitely more accurate. :smalltongue:

[Grey Watcher]

0.00000000

This seems like an overestimation to me.

[Sniccups]

Belkar <> Minrah is where it's at.

Was hoping someone would say this.

[CriticalFailure]

Unfortunately just posting “0” was not allowed. Cursed character minimums.

Anyways, Belkar already had a “romantic” subplot when he hooked up with the thieves’ guild member.

I honestly don’t see how Minrah could have a compelling romance with Belkar or how Belkar could be close to a half decent SO at this point. It’s possible for Minrah to have a romantic subplot without being defined in terms of a relationship, but it also doesn’t seem that likely. Also the only thing I could see making sense is the obvious option.

[Angrith]

I’m rarely inclined to give something a 0% chance of happening, and a Belkar-Minrah relationship is far from the most outlandish thing I’ve seen proposed on here. It would serve some story purposes - I’m still struggling to understand what Minrah’s story role is, and this would give her more to do. Unlike some other people, I don’t think Belkar is actually incapable of being in a relationship at this point. We know he’s capable of attraction, and we know he’s now capable of trying to be somewhat considerate. Is he capable of being a good boyfriend yet? I don’t think so, but I think he’s just reaching the stage where he might be capable of wanting to be in an actual relationship. And he and Minrah have a good rapport. If either of them wind up being attracted to another character in this book, it’s probably going to be each other. And there’s obviously a lot of potential character development that could emerge from that.

With all that said... I just don’t see it happening. I give it like a 1% chance of coming up. I suspect that the main out-of-story reason why Minrah was added to the cast was that The Giant is actively trying to include more major female characters, and adding a major new female character serves that goal less effectively if she comes to be seen mainly as the love interest of an existing male character.


You have pretty much summed up my own position in these paragraphs and did it much better to boot.

[RatElemental]

I'm still pulling for Durkon x Belkar. Hey, he's not in last place! And I'm pretty sure if you're not last, you're first. Corollary to the Ricky Bobby axiom.

[The Pilgrim]

And what would their offspring be? a half-halfling half dwarf? Too complicated. Elan wouldn't approve.

I'm inclined to think that should The Giant had intended to introduce a love interest for Belkar, he would have introduced a female halfling. I think there is one in the pirate crew.

[nolongeralurker]

I think Belkar's story arc might actually be better served by remaining platonic friends with Minrah. When I read the strip with their most recent conversation, I actually was thinking how nice it was that Belkar was able to have some sibling-like ("Preach it, sister!" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1194.html)) camaraderie and respect for a woman. Obviously it's possible to both be attracted to someone and respect them, but in the case of someone like Belkar, who has a history of treating women like objects, if he were to be portrayed as being attracted to Minrah, then any time he's nice to her there might be doubt in the readers' minds about how pure his motives for being nice really are. I think that continuing to show him as platonic friends with Minrah, while perhaps not making his death as dramatic as if he was in a romantic relationship with her*, would be the most effective way to show that he's currently capable of viewing/respecting woman as people, not just objects. Remember V's idea that Belkar could only feel either hatred or lust towards other people? If that was ever completely true, it certainly hasn't been for a while, as Belkar clearly doesn't currently hate the other members of the Order, and clearly doesn't feel attracted to the male members, at least. So we know he can feel things other than lust or hate towards guys like Durkon. However, while he doesn't hate Haley, we don't technically know that he doesn't still** lust after her. So introducing a character like Minrah and clearly showing that he neither hates nor lusts after her means that we now know for sure that he's capable of having non-hate/lust feelings towards both men and women. So therefore, I think the story would probably be better served by them just staying friends.

*Actually, it might be possible for his death to be more heartwrenching if they're only friends. Because then when Minrah's sad he's dead you know it's completely because she's missing him as a person, without any "wow, this sucks because I wanted to date him just because he was hot." I mean, I doubt she'd be thinking that, but still. Idk.

**I'm thinking of that one scene in the dungeon where all the guys were lusting after her

[JT]

So unity then.


Nah... there's a chance that Redcloak's niece is the boss monster behind the final door.

[CriticalFailure]

And what would their offspring be? a half-halfling half dwarf? Too complicated. Elan wouldn't approve.

I'm inclined to think that should The Giant had intended to introduce a love interest for Belkar, he would have introduced a female halfling. I think there is one in the pirate crew.

A five eighthling?

[RatElemental]

I think any offspring between Durkon and Belkar would either be a miracle or an abomination, depending on how they pulled that particular feat off.

[CriticalFailure]

I think any offspring between Durkon and Belkar would either be a miracle or an abomination, depending on how they pulled that particular feat off.

let's just go with "a wizard did it"

[understatement]

I think any offspring between Durkon and Belkar would either be a miracle or an abomination, depending on how they pulled that particular feat off.

Durkon would Flamestrike Belkar first before anything like that happens.

[Fincher]

Unfortunately just posting “0” was not allowed. Cursed character minimums.

Anyways, Belkar already had a “romantic” subplot when he hooked up with the thieves’ guild member.

I honestly don’t see how Minrah could have a compelling romance with Belkar or how Belkar could be close to a half decent SO at this point. It’s possible for Minrah to have a romantic subplot without being defined in terms of a relationship, but it also doesn’t seem that likely. Also the only thing I could see making sense is the obvious option.

I wouldn't go as far as 0%. I'd say more like .01%. Which I'll be fair and say is better than the chances of her and anyone else in The Order.

[enderlord99]

Belkar <> Minrah is where it's at.

That's what I was gonna say!

[CriticalFailure]

I wouldn't go as far as 0%. I'd say more like .01%. Which I'll be fair and say is better than the chances of her and anyone else in The Order.

Really? You think Belkar/Minrah is more likely than Durkon/Minrah? I don't think the latter is likely but it's a lot more probably than Belkar and Minrah together in my opinion.

[Fincher]

Really? You think Belkar/Minrah is more likely than Durkon/Minrah? I don't think the latter is likely but it's a lot more probably than Belkar and Minrah together in my opinion.

I'm just not getting that vibe at all between Durkon and Minrah, and I think if Rich was going to go there he'd be doing more to set it up, like having them talk about him and his son back in the Dwarven Lands. I don't think Minrah and Belkar is a particularly good idea, but them bonding over his attempts to change would be the best way of getting there. Plus Belkar's general irresponsibility and him being in personal uncharted territory could be used to explain him doing something probably ill-advised like attempting a relationship, whereas with Durkon having both a son at home and the fate of the world to consider, given his lawful nature, he'd need a pretty compelling reason to start up anything with anyone right now.

[Cazero]

Durkon would Flamestrike Belkar first before anything like that happens.
Durkon isn't the type to prepare Flamestrike. Doesn't mesh well with his divine domains and support role. What he would do is cast Thor's Might and crush Belkar with his giant hammer.

[Emanick]

Durkon isn't the type to prepare Flamestrike. Doesn't mesh well with his divine domains and support role. What he would do is cast Thor's Might and crush Belkar with his giant hammer.

He might do it for tactical reasons if Roy asked him to. It’s useful to have a spell that does untyped damage, especially when going up against a prepared foe.

But yeah, not really in character for Durkon to do so of his own volition.

[The Pilgrim]

I think any offspring between Durkon and Belkar would either be a miracle or an abomination, depending on how they pulled that particular feat off.

All they need to do is come by any decent magic shop and purchase a Girlde of Feminity/Masculinity (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0009.html).

[The MunchKING]

Belkar <> Minrah is where it's at.

So Colorless Mana then?? :smallconfused:

[enderlord99]

So Colorless Mana then?? :smallconfused:

It was a (presumably non-serious) reference to another webcomic.

[katiecruel]

It was a (presumably non-serious) reference to another webcomic.

A half-serious reference! But yeah, the core idea is that in this other webcomic I won't name there's different types of romantic relationships which are represented by the four suits of cards. <> represents the diamonds suit, and that represents like a platonic romantic relationship where two people are incredibly close and balance out each other's negative qualities without necessarily being physically intimate with each other. If you (the person being quoted by the person I was quoting, sorry not sure how to nest quotes here) want more details and a reason to judge me and everyone else in the thread that got the reference as harshly as possible, google the terms "moirallegiance" or "troll romance".

Based on how Minrah and Belkar's relationship has been developing, that seems kind of realistic to me? Like Minrah is a new person who is able to see the developing Good parts of Belkar, while Belkar is the person in the party who can most relate to Minrah's outsider perspective. There doesn't seem to be a lot of chemistry between them, but there's definitely a connection between them that isn't there otherwise in the party.

All that said, I'm not dismissing the possibility that Belkar doesn't know how to deal with having a woman as a friend and makes some highly inappropriate pass at Minrah at some point or another.

[understatement]

Belkar <3< Vaarsuvius

'K, time to find acid.

[Quartz]

Based on how Minrah and Belkar's relationship has been developing, that seems kind of realistic to me? Like Minrah is a new person who is able to see the developing Good parts of Belkar, while Belkar is the person in the party who can most relate to Minrah's outsider perspective. There doesn't seem to be a lot of chemistry between them, but there's definitely a connection between them that isn't there otherwise in the party.

We may be overthinking this but I think you're on to something.

[Darth Paul]

Belkar <3 Belkar, then Belkar <3 Mr. Scruffy. Everybody else is working their way up towards "tolerated" status.

[DaOldeWolf]

Considering that Belkar is a dead man, I would say that the chance they end up together is basically non existant.

[Peat]

I was going to say zero, but then I recalled V's theory (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html) and I'm wondering if it still holds. If it does, then Belkar developing some sort of feelings for Minrah seems inevitable. Whether that turns into a relationship is an entirely different question of course - I'd guess not - but an unrequited crush? I could see that. And Belkar having an actual friendship, devoid of sexual overtones or gristly death if they threaten the cat, would be a big step forwards for Belkar in and of itself.

[CriticalFailure]

I was going to say zero, but then I recalled V's theory (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html) and I'm wondering if it still holds. If it does, then Belkar developing some sort of feelings for Minrah seems inevitable. Whether that turns into a relationship is an entirely different question of course - I'd guess not - but an unrequited crush? I could see that. And Belkar having an actual friendship, devoid of sexual overtones or gristly death if they threaten the cat, would be a big step forwards for Belkar in and of itself.

I think losing that pattern is part of character develoopment.

[Liquor Box]

I think it's unlikely

Belkar has pulled some pretty smoking girls so far (remember the bard in the thieves guild), and Minrah strikes me as being more on the homely side then the comely. I think the Belkster is out of her league.

[Peat]

I think losing that pattern is part of character develoopment.

Right, my question/point is 'has he definitely developed that far?'

[hroþila]

Personally, I think that theory was more about V rationalizing the "incident" to minimize the yuckiness factor than about anything else. The theory didn't stand to closer scrutiny then, and it does not now.

[Schroeswald]

That theory is constantly disproven, he likes Elan cause he's funny but there is 0 lust in that, he likes Shojo because he's funny and makes paladins clean up cat poo, no lust, and he loves Mr. Scruffy because he's cute and cool, and he definitely has no lust for him.

[Peat]

I mean, yeah, it doesn't hold up with guys. But with women? For at least most of the comic it seems pretty watertight to me. If Minrah's a platonic friendship, I think it is his first. And I'm very much hoping that is the case.

[katiecruel]

I mean, yeah, it doesn't hold up with guys. But with women? For at least most of the comic it seems pretty watertight to me. If Minrah's a platonic friendship, I think it is his first. And I'm very much hoping that is the case.

I feel like it's worth pointing out that Belkar's relationship has been evolving alongside his more general growth. I was going to link comics 622 and 969 in here but I don't have the ten posts needed to post links yet lol.

[KorvinStarmast]

I feel like it's worth pointing out that Belkar's relationship has been evolving alongside his more general growth. I was going to link comics 622 and 969 in here but I don't have the ten posts needed to post links yet lol. There you go. :smallsmile:
969 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html)

622 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0622.html)

[LunarDrop]

I'm still holding out for Belkar/Vaarsuvius.

[RatElemental]

I'm still holding out for Belkar/Vaarsuvius.

That... makes a surprising amount of sense to me.

[Chronos]

I think that, at the time, Vaarsuvius' hypothesis was mostly accurate, but incomplete: Belkar was capable of three different emotions towards people, hatred, lust, and amusement (the latter being demonstrated towards Elan and Shojo).

But while that may have been true at the time, he's already outgrown it, most notably with respect to Durkon.

And yeah, while a Minrah/Durkon romance is unlikely at this point, it's still a heck of a lot more likely than Minrah/Belkar. If nothing else, they'll have decades or centuries of knowing each other, in which time almost anything could happen between them, while Belkar has somewhere in the vicinity of a week.

(and I thought that the <> thing was a reference to some programming languages using <> to mean "not equal to")

[CriticalFailure]

(and I thought that the <> thing was a reference to some programming languages using <> to mean "not equal to")

What languages use that as not equal?

[littlebum2002]

Minrah is level 10. 3 level 10 characters have an encounter level of 13. Belkar is level 15, which gives him an encounter level of 15.

So Belkar >3 Minrahs.

[Fyraltari]

What languages use that as not equal?

SQL sometimes.

[Manga Shoggoth]

What languages use that as not equal?

Also various BASICs. Excel formulae also use them.

[PopeLinus1]

I'm still holding out for Belkar/Vaarsuvius.

Belkar and Vaarsuvius are so far in the Caliginous Quadrant.


Yeah, I ship it.

[understatement]

Isn't Belkar around a decade older than her? (mentally)

I always got the impression that Minrah is fairly young for a dwarf, since she's still an acolyte.

[Fyraltari]

Isn't Belkar around a decade older than her? (mentally)

I always got the impression that Minrah is fairly young for a dwarf, since she's still an acolyte.

She did switch jobs. And everyone in the Order is fairly yound, around 20 years old in human/dwarf/elf years.

[dude123nice]

I'll just say that there is one "against" that is very powerful: it would be way out of character for Belkar to fall in love with anyone. As hard as I try to see this turning around to where he and Minrah have warm and even loving feelings for one another ... it does not seem to fit Belkar. I think Minrah's capable of love, and more.

As weird as it may be for you to hear, there are many people who don't equate beginning a relationship with someone with falling in love with them. And I get the feeling that a somewhat reformed Belkar is that kind of person.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I was under the impression that Minrah might be a lesbian. Thus the thing Thor told her he was cool with, and the deeply personal thing she wanted to tell her mother after she died.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1135.html

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1180.html

Then I realized that Durkon's mom is fine with same sex couples and probably taught those values to Durkon, so the first instance is probably wrong.

I don't know, I feel like Minrah might be into girls, and if so, probably isn't into Belkar. But I may be reading a lot into stuff that isn't being said explicitly, only hinted at.

Maybe it was just the first thought I had after piecing those two things together, and it's wrong, but since I thought it, I never let go of the idea. Could be.

[CriticalFailure]

maybe minrah is secretly into treants

[Crusher]

maybe minrah is secretly into treants

That's something I could see the Dwarves being horrified by yet Thor considers totally fine.

[Quartz]

maybe minrah is secretly into treants

Could she secretly be a... gardener?

[CriticalFailure]

Could she secretly be a... gardener?

I like this theory!