Can you use mold earth to move lava around.

[Throne12]

So can you!

[Chad.e.clark]

If the DM lets you!

Is lava considered dirt or stone in the D&D-verse? Because if its not, I would say its a no-go, because you have to see the dirt or stone to manipulate it. Cant manipulate the dirt or stone under the lava or in the lava.

[LudicSavant]

So can you!

It's a DM call. If your DM determines that lava is "loose earth," then yes. Lava is basically liquefied earth. Doesn't get much looser than that.

The standard I've usually seen for determining if something counts as loose earth is roughly "if you can use a shovel on it, you can Mold Earth it. (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/139838)"

[Kane0]

Agreed on the shovel ruling

[Zetakya]

Not only can you shovel lava, Geoscientists often do so (https://www.iflscience.com/environment/this-scientist-is-poking-fresh-lava-flow-with-a-shovel-for-a-damn-good-reason/), for Science!!

[JNAProductions]

It's a DM call. If your DM determines that lava is "loose earth," then yes. Lava is basically liquefied earth. Doesn't get much looser than that.

The standard I've usually seen for determining if something counts as loose earth is roughly "if you can use a shovel on it, you can Mold Earth it. (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/139838)"

That's a good standard to rule by.

I'll also add this-if you have to refer to something by another name to get your point across, it shouldn't be affected by the spell.

Mold Earth affects EARTH-specifically loose earth-not lava. You would not refer to lava as earth without some considerable caveats or qualifications, so.

[Chronos]

In common, everyday speech, I wouldn't refer to dirt as earth, either. "Earth" exists as a catch-all term to include a wide variety of substances.

[Jerrykhor]

In common, everyday speech, I wouldn't refer to dirt as earth, either. "Earth" exists as a catch-all term to include a wide variety of substances.

And "Dirt" does not?

[LudicSavant]

My personal opinion as a DM: Your campaign will not explode if you let your player move some molten rock 5 feet. If anything, players situationally taking advantage of their environment will likely enhance your game.

[Zhorn]

By DMG p5 "The rules don't account for every possible situation that might arise during a typical D&D session", the shovel ruling seems completely fair and reasonable.
The spell specifies stone, lava is liquid stone (though if you've ever actual dealt with the stuff in real live, it's still very solid). If a DM rules no on this, I would take issue with them only if they were not consistently by-exact-words with other rulings. To each their own style, so long as that style is reliably consistent.

[MaxWilson]

I like the shovel ruling, but in addition it has to be earth, and in my cosmology lava is no more earth.than ice is. It's magma, a paraelement blending earth and fire.

My inclination would be to say "probably not. I'll roll 2d6 and only if they both come up 5-6 will Mold Earth work that way in this campaign."

[Zetakya]

If it's not affected by Mold Earth, then is it affected by Control Flames?

[Greywander]

If it's not affected by Mold Earth, then is it affected by Control Flames?
This is an interesting question as it implies that everything would be affected by something. Would oil, for example, be affected by Shape Water or Mold Earth? But I think the fundamental assumption there that there must be one of these cantrips that can manipulate a given material is likely false; Shape Water only affects water, not other liquids (unless it is a mixture containing water, which oil is not), and Mold Earth only affects certain types of earth, to wit, loose earth. The fact that oil comes out of the ground doesn't make it any more plausible to be affected by Mold Earth than the fact that it is a liquid makes it plausible that it would be affected by Shape Water.

For magma/lava, it is molten stone, not dirt. Mold Earth can't move it, but it can do other things with it. At least, that's the RAW. It would be interesting to allow a player to move lava with Mold Earth and see what they do with that power. Given how dangerous lava is, I'm sure they'd get up to no good with it, which might be why moving stone isn't allowed.

[Zetakya]

This is an interesting question as it implies that everything would be affected by something. Would oil, for example, be affected by Shape Water or Mold Earth? But I think the fundamental assumption there that there must be one of these cantrips that can manipulate a given material is likely false;

The underlying point of a magical theory of four elements is that everything is made up of the four fundamental elements of existence.

So I would say that in the context of a D&D game that it's entirely reasonable to assume that one or another of the spells should apply.

[Greywander]

The underlying point of a magical theory of four elements is that everything is made up of the four fundamental elements of existence.

So I would say that in the context of a D&D game that it's entirely reasonable to assume that one or another of the spells should apply.
I'm not entirely sure this is the case for D&D, but it's certainly a common fantasy trope. Still, this would likely be outside the realm of cantrips, and relegated to higher level spells. The cantrip version would only manipulate either the most malleable forms of those elements, or else the most common forms that spellcasters cared enough about to develop a cantrip specifically for them. I'm not sure that water is any easier to manipulate than other liquids, but because it is so common and so important to humanity, it makes sense to develop a spell specifically to manipulate water, and not other types of liquids. Lava isn't particularly common nor is it integral for human civilization, though in places where it is common the spellcasters might look for a simpler spell to manipulate it.

In short, no you can't use Shape Water to bloodbend (because you know there's going to be that one guy who tries). I could certainly see a spell that manipulated any type of material associated with that element, and all materials being associated with an element, but this is above the pay grade of a cantrip. And it also begs the question of how to handle mixtures of different elements.

[Kane0]

Yeah bending arguments arent fun at the table.

Great fun on the internet though.

[Imbalance]

This was something I thought about a while back in the context of another discussion about lava, but I would allow it with the caveat that any character within 10' of the displaced material would take fire damage, including the caster. There are also a lot of dangerous terrain conditions that go along with the presence of active lava pools and flows, especially underground, including heat exhaustion.

I wouldn't allow control flames to move lava, but I would treat molten rock as an inexhaustible source of flames to control.

[Spriteless]

I mean, Katara couldn't blood bend to start with, it was an advanced technique she had to learn. And if you were really interested in it, and had access to an arcane library or warlock-patron-mentor or [plot coupon] I would allow you to research such a spell.

Well, blood bending is too icky for my games. But I'd allow a lava spell. You can treat it like a trade secret as the gnomes' binding of elementals, or offer a non-exclusive distribution deal to Cannith so they can teach dozens of wrights to shape molten metal.

[Throne12]

Lava isnt a one hit kill. Only ways I can see to attack with lava is to pull a stream towards a creature or too redirected a flow to pour onto of a creature. This can be easily solved by how the DM moves the creatures around.

Now for what I was thinking about using mold earth for
1. There is a lava waterfall blocking a entrance you can move it away or cover one up.
2. You come to a pool or flow of lava and need to get to the other side the lava is considered difficult terrain. You use mold earth to cool it down a bit to walk over.
3. Your running or chasing someone. You use mold earth to pull lava in front or behind someone to block a path.

It things like things I would use mold earth for.

[JonBeowulf]

I mean, Katara couldn't blood bend to start with, it was an advanced technique she had to learn. And if you were really interested in it, and had access to an arcane library or warlock-patron-mentor or [plot coupon] I would allow you to research such a spell.

Well, blood bending is too icky for my games. But I'd allow a lava spell. You can treat it like a trade secret as the gnomes' binding of elementals, or offer a non-exclusive distribution deal to Cannith so they can teach dozens of wrights to shape molten metal.

I am stealing "plot coupon"... I'll give you credit every time I use it, but I'm stealing that phrase!

As to the OP and similar player actions, I toss an Arcana check at them with the DC set by circumstances. If they fail, lost the spell slot, sorry. If they succeed, good on ya mate. If they succeed by 5+, they create a new (very niche) spell! It encourages creativity and it hasn't broken anything (yet).

My players also like the chance of getting something that no one else has.

[Chronos]

Yes, "dirt" is also a category of different materials, but not nearly as broad a category as "earth".

And of course you're only going to be using the spell this way if you're in an environment where lava is to be found, and any DM who puts the players in such an environment should darned well expect them to try to make use of it somehow. If the players aren't moving the lava into the enemies, they'll be trying to move the enemies into the lava.

Which is of course mitigated by the fact that most enemies found in that sort of environment are there because they're immune to fire damage.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Lava is magma. Magma is a paraelemental in D&D's physics, the point between earth and fire. It is, without a doubt, earth (as well as fire) according to D&D logic.

I'm not sure if Mold Earth can or should interact with the paraelementals, but there's no doubt that magma and acid are still considered 'earth' for the purposes of physics in D&D.

[PhantomSoul]

Lava is magma. Magma is a paraelemental in D&D's physics, the point between earth and fire. It is, without a doubt, earth (as well as fire) according to D&D logic.

I'm not sure if Mold Earth can or should interact with the paraelementals, but there's no doubt that magma and acid are still considered 'earth' for the purposes of physics in D&D.

But can you control the "point between" or the combination when you can only control a part? Question for the DM!

[LibraryOgre]

Mold Earth affects stone. Lava is stone. IMO, QED.

[Spriteless]

I am stealing "plot coupon"... I'll give you credit every time I use it, but I'm stealing that phrase!

Oh, I did not create the phrase! A bit of research says Nick Lowe did, right here (https://ansible.uk/Ansible/plotdev.html). Although, he is talking about plot coupons as goals to keep generic stories moving, and I was using a generic plot coupon because I don't know your PCs I can't tailor it to them.

[D&D_Fan]

Since Lava is tied heavily to both Earth and Fire, You can only move it half as fast or as much as usual.

[LibraryOgre]

Additional argument for "Mold Earth can move lava": Bolin. (https://avatar.fandom.com/wiki/Bolin)

[JNAProductions]

Mold Earth affects stone. Lava is stone. IMO, QED.


You choose a portion of dirt or stone that you can see within range and that fits within a 5-foot cube. You manipulate it in one of the following ways:

-If you target an area of loose earth, you can instantaneously excavate it, move it along the ground, and deposit it up to 5 feet away. This movement doesn’t have enough force to cause damage.

-You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone, spelling out words, creating images, or shaping patterns. The changes last for 1 hour.

-If the dirt or stone you target is on the ground, you cause it to become difficult terrain. Alternatively, you can cause the ground to become normal terrain if it is already difficult terrain. This change lasts for 1 hour.

If you cast this spell multiple times, you can have no more than two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time, and you can dismiss such an effect as an action.

So, by that logic, you can cause shapes and colors on it, as well as making it difficult terrain or smoothing it to normal terrain.

You can't move it, since that requires loose earth.

[Vogie]

I'd say You'd only be able to move it easily and fluidly with both Mold Earth and Control Flame, but using either without knowing the other will still be effective, just less so.

[MaxWilson]

If it's not affected by Mold Earth, then is it affected by Control Flames?

Can Shape Water move a block of ice?

[Segev]

Yes, "dirt" is also a category of different materials, but not nearly as broad a category as "earth".

And of course you're only going to be using the spell this way if you're in an environment where lava is to be found, and any DM who puts the players in such an environment should darned well expect them to try to make use of it somehow. If the players aren't moving the lava into the enemies, they'll be trying to move the enemies into the lava.

Which is of course mitigated by the fact that most enemies found in that sort of environment are there because they're immune to fire damage.

My players got VERY annoyed when the firenewts started shoving the downed giant striders into the lava. Got the beasties right back up and ready to fight.

[Zhorn]

You can't move it, since that requires loose earth.
... but it does technically fit those terms.

Defining loose: "not firmly or tightly fixed in place; detached or able to be detached"
As long as we are talking molten lava, then it would meet that criteria.

Next looking at the spell's requirement of earth. The spell in it's first line specifies "dirt or stone", but the line in particular that allows moving only uses earth. If it were meant to be only dirt, then dirt would have been used in place of earth. Earth is a catch-all with families and subfamilies of material under it (stone, dirt, sand, clay, soil, silt, etc). With the exception of clay/soil having a separate thing going in in their creation (the addition of biological matter, humus, and water), the only difference between the others is the grain size of the components. Stone breaks into rocks, breaks into pebbles, breaks into sand/dirt, breaks into silt (or erodes if you want to use technical language). Nothing is getting added to the mix that isn't already there in their stone/lava forms. If anything there is less in the smaller fragmented materials as everything is eroding away leaving only the silicate quartz in the end (sands and silts).
Dirt can be used to exclude stone solely based on grain size, but the term earth makes no such distinction.

I agree this should be in the realms of "up to the DM", and am all cool with someone ruling it not working in their games just because it's getting a bit to complex too rule, but if such a thing is to be reasoned out, I can't see it NOT treating lava as a valid target.

[Zetakya]

Can Shape Water move a block of ice?

I see no reason why not. It's not like ice doesn't flow on its own; that's what gletsjers are.

[Zetakya]

My players got VERY annoyed when the firenewts started shoving the downed giant striders into the lava. Got the beasties right back up and ready to fight.

Solid tactics right there, like it

[Greywander]

I mean, Katara couldn't blood bend to start with, it was an advanced technique she had to learn. And if you were really interested in it, and had access to an arcane library or warlock-patron-mentor or [plot coupon] I would allow you to research such a spell.

Well, blood bending is too icky for my games. But I'd allow a lava spell. You can treat it like a trade secret as the gnomes' binding of elementals, or offer a non-exclusive distribution deal to Cannith so they can teach dozens of wrights to shape molten metal.
Katara had to learn an advanced technique (which, in D&D terms, would correlate more to learning a higher level spell). And she could only do it during a full moon. And she and her teacher were the only ones to ever be able to do it (at least, until Legend of Korra). This was basically a high level spell that was developed from scratch, and one of the material components was a full moon.

The thing about blood bending specifically is that it's just too easy to abuse. There have to be some kind of restrictions on it because of how powerful it is. Lava bending isn't quite as ridiculous, certainly.


Additional argument for "Mold Earth can move lava": Bolin. (https://avatar.fandom.com/wiki/Bolin)
I've got my gripes with Legend of Korra, but lava bending was pretty cool, I'll give them that. I still think it might be stronger than a cantrip, though, and probably not what Mold Earth was intended for.


I'd say You'd only be able to move it easily and fluidly with both Mold Earth and Control Flame, but using either without knowing the other will still be effective, just less so.
I like this option. Maybe you'd need to know both in order to control lava, or you'd need to cast them at the same time (with two casters). And actually, this could add some nice utility with knowing more than one such cantrip. I find Control Flames to be somewhat lackluster, and Gust seems the weakest of the four, but if knowing two of them allowed you to control the associated paraelement then it brings more utility. For example, if you know Gust and Shape Water, then you could move ice around.

I think it's generally a good idea to err on the side of letting the players do things rather than just shutting them down. If you're not sure, ask for an ability check (DC 15 is a good rule of thumb). This has the advantage of letting them try, but without making it an automatic success (i.e. it's not just a free power boost, nor is it a flat "no"). But RAW, I don't think Mold Earth can move lava, because lava is stone. Now, lava is kind of atypical of stone in that it's a liquid, so as someone else pointed out it might meet a colloquial definition of "loose earth". I don't think they considered lava when writing the spell description, so it's possible that it could actually be RAI to be able to move lava.

[Chronos]

Oh, I'm almost certain that they weren't thinking of lava when they created the spell. But allowing it to work with lava appears to work with the way the spell is written (since you can't get much more "loose" than liquid), it's not overpowered (since it only works when there's lava around anyway), and allowing it is more fun than not allowing it, since it's fun to reward creative thinking.

[Segev]

Oh, I'm almost certain that they weren't thinking of lava when they created the spell. But allowing it to work with lava appears to work with the way the spell is written (since you can't get much more "loose" than liquid), it's not overpowered (since it only works when there's lava around anyway), and allowing it is more fun than not allowing it, since it's fun to reward creative thinking.

It's...likely that allowing it would not result in anything too game-breaking, any more than shape water is actually game-breaking when you consider all the limits it actually has.

[JoeJ]

This and shape water are both good illustrations of why D&D needs rules for performing power stunts, like some superhero games have.

[stoutstien]

Id allow it but it will require concentration because of the difficulty added.