Strength Rogue Subclass

[Christew]

So, certainly not a new idea, but I was speaking with my DM about making a Tavern Brawler character viable and we decided to work it up as a rogue subclass. Thoughts and feedback would be greatly appreciated. It is largely modeled on the way Swashbuckler is derived from the Mobility feat.

Rogue: Thug
You focus your training on the art of versatility in combat, relying on intimidation, force, and a complete lack of honor in equal parts. While some warriors are elegant in their approach, your method of fighting looks brutish but efficient. Enforcers and Bouncers typically belong to this archetype. A Thug lets his fists (or whatever lies at hand) do the talking for him.

Tavern Pugilist
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you learn how to mix it up with the best of them.
- You gain proficiency in Improvised Weapons.
- Your unarmed attacks and attacks with Improvised Weapons deal 1d6+STR damage.

Dirty Fighting
Starting at 3rd level, your willingness to abandon decorum gives you an edge in battle.
- You can use your Cunning Action to initiate a grapple, in addition to its normal uses.
- You can use your Sneak Attack with Improvised weapons and thrown weapons that lack the finesse property. All other restrictions apply.

Technical Brawler
At 9th level, your combat techniques become mystical in their effectiveness.
- Your unarmed and Improvised Weapon attacks count as magical for the purposes of overcoming resistance.
- While you are grappling an opponent, you have resistance to non-magical B/P/S damage and can use your Cunning Action to take the Dodge action.

Thuggish Presence
Beginning at 13th level, you are an expert at frightening people and can posture threateningly as an action. When you do so, choose one creature that you can see within 30 feet of you. If the creature can see or hear you, it must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw (DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength modifier) or be frightened of you until the end of your next turn. While a creature is frightened of you, you can make attack rolls against it with advantage.

Surprise Strike
Starting at 17th level, you can strike with deadly speed. If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can make one additional attack as a bonus action. This attack can benefit from your Sneak Attack even if you have already used it this turn, but you can't use your Sneak Attack against the same target more than once in a turn.

[Lavaeolus]

I'll leave more thorough talk of balance to other posters, since I'm off to bed, but I'll note:


- You can use your Sneak Attack with Improvised weapons and thrown weapons that lack the finesse property. All other restrictions apply.


Right now, despite the other unarmed strike buffs this subclass gets, they do not qualify for Sneak Attack. Intentional?

[Christew]

Complete oversight. The central focus is certainly improvised weapons and grappling, but I think unarmed attacks probably need to be there as a backup. Good eye, thanks.

[JNAProductions]

So... Just gonna leave the Enforcer (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?566793-Enforcer-A-Strongman-s-Rogue) here.

[Theodoxus]

I noticed that too - I assumed it was to keep monks from grabbing 3 levels and have 4 chances to get sneak attack at turn.

I like it, it would be a little too powerful if strength wasn't typically a dump stat for Rogues. To do all the "roguish" stuff well (stealth, sleight of hand, thieves' tools, etc) you'll be pretty MAD. You're going to have a lower AC than a typical rogue without some way to compensate (mountain dwarves would be the 'go to' race for this subclass). It's a good halfway point between a classic rogue and a classic fighter and that's a niche not yet officially explored.

Still want a reason to use that longsword proficiency though... really want a strength based rogue that uses a two-handed longsword to deal sneak damage. This isn't the subclass for that - but it gives me an idea of making a sister class that does...

[ProsecutorGodot]

A few things jump out immediately:
Tavern Pugilist
-No good reason for this to be 1d6 for damage, it's pretty minor all things considered since Rogue damage comes primarily from Sneak Attack
Dirty Fighting
-Grappling as a bonus action is pretty strong on a class that already has Expertise built into their kit, we get other problems trickling down from here
Technical Brawler
-Borrowing directly from Monk on bullet point one, it doesn't actually make a lot of sense for a non-magical subclass in a martial class to have suddenly magical attacks. Monk's get away with this because their Ki is a magical effect. a hot debate in its own right, but inarguable that they are punching you with more than just a fist.
-Stealing from Barbarian and Monk giving resistance and dodging where those classes would spend short and long rest resources on these benefits? and all you have to do is be grappling something? Incredibly abusable. Grapple your friends, Grapple your pet rat. It's still just as overpowered (in my opinion) used as intended to just grapple your enemies.
-Design nitpick, Rogue's don't usually get a combat feature at this level. Getting such an effective one only highlights how potentially out of line it is.
Surprise Strike
-It's word for word the exact same feature as the Scout, why bother even renaming it. I'd work on something more thematically tied to the subclass instead of just taking a good feature from a different subclass focused around Speed where this one seems more focused on Brutality. With how strong the class is up to this point, perhaps it could even do with the Swashbuckler treatment and have a slightly less good capstone.

[AHF]

Being able to use cunning action on dodge strikes me as being over powered. It also doesn’t make much sense to me. Why would a rogue grappling an unwilling target be more agile than other rogues who can’t do this and aren’t wrestling with a hostile opponent?

Would need more around the “improvised weapons become magical” bit too. Would probably rather see the DM let the character get a pair of gauntlets that let the user charge objects with magic if you want that in the game rather than having it be a class feature. Or would look for a better wrap around it. Thuggish doesn’t narratively lead to mystical.

[Christew]

So... Just gonna leave the Enforcer (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?566793-Enforcer-A-Strongman-s-Rogue) here.
Solid stuff. Trying to stick to just a subclass instead of a core revamp, but definitely worth reading.


I noticed that too - I assumed it was to keep monks from grabbing 3 levels and have 4 chances to get sneak attack at turn.

I like it, it would be a little too powerful if strength wasn't typically a dump stat for Rogues. To do all the "roguish" stuff well (stealth, sleight of hand, thieves' tools, etc) you'll be pretty MAD. You're going to have a lower AC than a typical rogue without some way to compensate (mountain dwarves would be the 'go to' race for this subclass). It's a good halfway point between a classic rogue and a classic fighter and that's a niche not yet officially explored.

Still want a reason to use that longsword proficiency though... really want a strength based rogue that uses a two-handed longsword to deal sneak damage. This isn't the subclass for that - but it gives me an idea of making a sister class that does...
A fair point, this is mostly for a home game so I'm not overly concerned about multiclass balancing but worth noting. Mountain dwarf is an excellent recommendation.


A few things jump out immediately:
Tavern Pugilist
-No good reason for this to be 1d6 for damage, it's pretty minor all things considered since Rogue damage comes primarily from Sneak Attack
Agreed. This was mostly to bring damage in line with shortsword/shortbow (and the fact that I hate rolling d4s), but largely inconsequential.

Dirty Fighting
-Grappling as a bonus action is pretty strong on a class that already has Expertise built into their kit, we get other problems trickling down from here
The same effect can be achieved on any rogue with the Tavern Brawler feat (albeit with a required improvised weapon attack). One of the design goals is to make improvised weapons work in a way that doesn't thoroughly gimp the character. This was done to hang it on the existing Cunning Action chassis, but may need a rider requirement.

Technical Brawler
-Borrowing directly from Monk on bullet point one, it doesn't actually make a lot of sense for a non-magical subclass in a martial class to have suddenly magical attacks. Monk's get away with this because their Ki is a magical effect. a hot debate in its own right, but inarguable that they are punching you with more than just a fist.
-Stealing from Barbarian and Monk giving resistance and dodging where those classes would spend short and long rest resources on these benefits? and all you have to do is be grappling something? Incredibly abusable. Grapple your friends, Grapple your pet rat. It's still just as overpowered (in my opinion) used as intended to just grapple your enemies.
-Design nitpick, Rogue's don't usually get a combat feature at this level. Getting such an effective one only highlights how potentially out of line it is.
Indeed, though I don't think using existing game mechanics needs to be described as "stealing." Working off existing abilities is a tried and true way of making new subclasses and tends to be more balanced than outright homebrewery. This one was actually hotly debated. I agree that the fluff isn't great, but design-wise you can't build a subclass around unarmed/improvised without giving them a path to bypass the most basic form of damage resistance or they will become largely irrelevant at a certain point. Same thinking for a survivability mechanic -- this is a low HP class that is being driven by it's abilities toward close combat. Certainly needs an "enemy combatant" addition, but I guess I'm not seeing the intense OPness beyond that. My least favorite ability of the bunch, but I think magic damage and survivability need to be addressed by level 9 in order for the class to function. Also, Panache is arguably a combat ability of no small reckoning.

Surprise Strike
-It's word for word the exact same feature as the Scout, why bother even renaming it. I'd work on something more thematically tied to the subclass instead of just taking a good feature from a different subclass focused around Speed where this one seems more focused on Brutality. With how strong the class is up to this point, perhaps it could even do with the Swashbuckler treatment and have a slightly less good capstone.
Yup, fair critique. Name change solely for fluff coherence. Didn't invest much effort here because I doubt our home game will see level 17. Good points all and open to suggestions.

[Christew]

Being able to use cunning action on dodge strikes me as being over powered. It also doesn’t make much sense to me. Why would a rogue grappling an unwilling target be more agile than other rogues who can’t do this and aren’t wrestling with a hostile opponent?

Would need more around the “improvised weapons become magical” bit too. Would probably rather see the DM let the character get a pair of gauntlets that let the user charge objects with magic if you want that in the game rather than having it be a class feature. Or would look for a better wrap around it. Thuggish doesn’t narratively lead to mystical.
As stated, I'm not in love with this ability. That said, fluff-wise a skilled practitioner using a grappled opponent to block/avoid incoming attacks is pretty canonical cinematically speaking (Jackie Chan largely built his early career off of it, for example). Mechanics-wise it has an opportunity cost of a 9th level class ability and a bonus action. Your "other rogues" trained in different tactics and are ostensibly investing their actions differently.

I see your point fluff-wise. Mechanically, I don't like gatewaying a class's functionality behind a hopefully existent specialized magic item. Taking monk as an example, design seems to indicate that a class built around not using commonly obtained magic weapons needs a path to bypassing resistance. I'd definitely like to accomplish it more elegantly, hence the crowd-sourcing of input. Thanks for yours!

[JNAProductions]

Oh, yeah. I didn't read it fully-giving Resistance and Dodge as a bonus action for grappling... That's insane. That's absolutely ridiculous.

Rogues are already pretty tanky (decentish AC, but an extra ASI for Con or Tough plus Uncanny Dodge means you can survive a decent amount) but this? This is ridiculous.

[Christew]

Oh, yeah. I didn't read it fully-giving Resistance and Dodge as a bonus action for grappling... That's insane. That's absolutely ridiculous.

Rogues are already pretty tanky (decentish AC, but an extra ASI for Con or Tough plus Uncanny Dodge means you can survive a decent amount) but this? This is ridiculous.
Explanation: DM and I disagreed on the route to survivability, so first draft includes both.

Rogues are tanky enough for the ranged or dart in dart out tactics that current subclasses encourage, but this is a get in and stay in close fighter. I advocated for Dodge 1) because I think nonmagic BPS is largely meaningless at level 9 -- a Barbarian gets better while raging at level 1, and 2) because I think using a grappled opponent to block/avoid incoming attacks is thematic and cinematic. Requiring a grappled enemy combatant and a bonus action seemed like a decent cost, but maybe I need to reconsider.

[Lille]

Maybe let them use a reaction to redirect an attack at them to someone they have grappled instead? That would fit the fluff better, and I think it would be fairly reasonable power-wise.

[Trustypeaches]

Technical Brawler
-Borrowing directly from Monk on bullet point one, it doesn't actually make a lot of sense for a non-magical subclass in a martial class to have suddenly magical attacks. Monk's get away with this because their Ki is a magical effect. a hot debate in its own right, but inarguable that they are punching you with more than just a fist.
Even if it doesn't make sense, it's necessary, given that there are no magic items that otherwise make unarmed attacks magical.

Not giving the subclass this feature is basically ensuring their features will be useless after Tier 2, if not earlier.

[kazaryu]

So, certainly not a new idea, but I was speaking with my DM about making a Tavern Brawler character viable and we decided to work it up as a rogue subclass. Thoughts and feedback would be greatly appreciated. It is largely modeled on the way Swashbuckler is derived from the Mobility feat.


Why rogue, specifically. You later give this sub class
1. Effectively free nonmagical damage resistance and
2. A bonus action dodge.
Ostensibly because the rogue chasis isnt tanky enough. So why pick an inherently non tanky class for this?

But thats fine, if you want to stick with rogue, give them medium armor proficiency instead. Youre focusing str so youre probably not gonna be pumping dex, doing this would give the subclass back its ac.

Another problem youre going to run afoul of. Reliable talent. Having a floor of 23 on your athletics checks, is really good.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Even if it doesn't make sense, it's necessary, given that there are no magic items that otherwise make unarmed attacks magical.

Not giving the subclass this feature is basically ensuring their features will be useless after Tier 2, if not earlier.

That doesn't mean you can't have it make a bit more sense. It's a bit finicky, but perhaps something like "your talent with grappling let's you expose previously unknown weaknesses, creatures you have grappled cannot resist the damage dealt by your unarmed or improvised weapon attacks for the next X amount of time"

Not a perfect solution but it gives some reasonable explanation other than suddenly making table legs magical in your hands.

Edit: I've been thinking it over and this actually brings up another criticism. None of your features actually rely on using unarmed or improvised weapon, you get these incredible bonuses even if you choose not to use them. Nothing prevents you from having a magical weapon with finesse that you use strength for, them you get all the extra goodies on top of it.

This does technically make your 3rd level subclass feature just "you can use cunning action to grapple" but that actually isn't bad at all.

[Trustypeaches]

Edit: I've been thinking it over and this actually brings up another criticism. None of your features actually rely on using unarmed or improvised weapon, you get these incredible bonuses even if you choose not to use them. Nothing prevents you from having a magical weapon with finesse that you use strength for, them you get all the extra goodies on top of it.

This does technically make your 3rd level subclass feature just "you can use cunning action to grapple" but that actually isn't bad at all.
That's actually fine, IMO.

The majority of subclasses don't restrict your weapon choice like that, even if they're giving you more options. College of Swords doesn't mandate you use Swords, or even melee weapons, for example.

-

All that said, I'd redesign the features from 9th level on. They aren't super thematic and step on the toes of other subclasses.

[Christew]

Why rogue, specifically. You later give this sub class
1. Effectively free nonmagical damage resistance and
2. A bonus action dodge.
Ostensibly because the rogue chasis isnt tanky enough. So why pick an inherently non tanky class for this?

But thats fine, if you want to stick with rogue, give them medium armor proficiency instead. Youre focusing str so youre probably not gonna be pumping dex, doing this would give the subclass back its ac.

Another problem youre going to run afoul of. Reliable talent. Having a floor of 23 on your athletics checks, is really good.
There was discussion of monk as the base chassis at one point. Generally the flavor and base class abilities of rogue were deemed more appropriate. Hmm, Reliable Talent could be an issue. Though at level doesn't seem to crazy for a devoted grappling specialist.

Edit: I've been thinking it over and this actually brings up another criticism. None of your features actually rely on using unarmed or improvised weapon, you get these incredible bonuses even if you choose not to use them. Nothing prevents you from having a magical weapon with finesse that you use strength for, them you get all the extra goodies on top of it.

This does technically make your 3rd level subclass feature just "you can use cunning action to grapple" but that actually isn't bad at all.
Yeah, there were a lot more riders of "when you make an improvised weapon strike" at one point. Those then became "improvised weapon, unarmed, or grapple."

We ultimately decided on not punishing finding an interesting magic item. Perhaps some of them should return.

[N810]

Maybe let them use a reaction to redirect an attack at them to someone they have grappled instead? That would fit the fluff better, and I think it would be fairly reasonable power-wise.

I was about to suggest the same thing. :)

[Christew]

Maybe let them use a reaction to redirect an attack at them to someone they have grappled instead? That would fit the fluff better, and I think it would be fairly reasonable power-wise.
I like that a lot actually. Good on.

Some edits:
Tavern Pugilist
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you learn how to mix it up with the best of them.
- You gain proficiency in Improvised Weapons.
- Your unarmed attacks and attacks with Improvised Weapons deal 1d6+STR damage. At 6th level these attacks count as magical for the purposes of overcoming resistance.

Dirty Fighting
Starting at 3rd level, your willingness to abandon decorum gives you an edge in battle. When you use your action to make an unarmed, improvised weapon, or thrown weapon attack:
- You can use your Cunning Action to initiate a grapple, in addition to its normal uses.
- You can use your Sneak Attack on the attack if you have advantage on the attack or an ally is within 5ft of the target.

Defensive Brawler
At 9th level, you gain the ability to defend yourself while grappling. While you are grappling an enemy combatant:
- You can use your Cunning Action to take the Dodge action.
- When you use Uncanny Dodge, half of the original damage is redirected to your grappled opponent.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

This looks really good, but I still think what we need is a rogueish subclass for a Strength class rather than a strength subclass for the Rogue. An Urban Barbarian or a Thuggish Fighter.

[Man_Over_Game]

This looks really good, but I still think what we need is a rogueish subclass for a Strength class rather than a strength subclass for the Rogue. An Urban Barbarian or a Thuggish Fighter.

You could also make the Rogue be a better candidate for Strength as a stat, which opens up things like Strength-based Swashbuckler.

I took a stab at this with my version of the Thug Rogue (Rogues get same proficiencies as Ranger, Sneak Attack uses Melee weapons instead of Ranged/Finesse, Sneak Attack no longer limited to once per turn but reduced to 1d4, all instances of Dexterity [like with Evasion and saving throws] is replaced with Constitution).

I'm sure there are other ways of going about it, but I think you could adapt the entire Rogue chassis to allow Strength-based alternatives.