Stealth and Sleight of Hand

[elyktsorb]

Sleight of Hand isn't something I use very often, because 9 times out of 10, I need to be in stealth for it to even matter. What's the point of picking someone's pocket if they can see you around them? Like, is it just me, or do most people feel like trying to snag something important off of someone needs to be done when you can't be seen at all?

[Segev]

The classic pickpocket maneuvers are done in full view. Some urchin bumps into the mark, and then runs off with his coin purse. A variant occurs in an OotS comic where a kobold and a human kid are pretending to play tag and the human runs into Durkon, stealing his belt pouch before apologizing for running into him and accepting admonishment to watch where she’s going.

Sleight of hand can also be used for any tricky deceit or clandestine activity with your hands. Magic tricks, of course, but also switching items in hand without being noticed, drawing or stowing items secretly, swapping goblets with someone without being noticed, cheating at cards, or snagging fries off your friend’s plate without him realizing.

[Luccan]

Yeah, I usually see it used when the user has even a couple seconds of distraction. Grab a letter off a desk when their back is turned and stow it away, "accidental" bump (something actual pickpockets use, apparently), and all sorts of legerdemain, practical or otherwise. I actually think I've seen it used out of Stealth more than in it, probably because if you're in Stealth you don't want to risk breaking it to get whatever is in someone's pocket and if they can't see you, you can take unattended stuff and take out and store items pretty much to your leisure.

[HappyDaze]

Sleight of Hand isn't something I use very often, because 9 times out of 10, I need to be in stealth for it to even matter. What's the point of picking someone's pocket if they can see you around them? Like, is it just me, or do most people feel like trying to snag something important off of someone needs to be done when you can't be seen at all?

A pickpocket or a shoplifter do not need to be unnoticed to have their taking of something go unnoticed. Palming a card at a gaming table does not require the cardsharp to hide under the tale, and likewise, palming a small weapon can keep the weapon unnoticed even while an opponent is staring you down. Often the rest of the body is used to obfuscate what the hand doing the sleight is doing. It would also not be unreasonable to allow sleight of hand to conceal S components of spellcasting even while the caster is otherwise observable.

[DrKerosene]

I believe hiding a weapon or item on your body did use a sleight of hand check in 3.5e days, so maybe hiding some lockpicks and a couple daggers would be one use.

A successful check might allow you to have advantage on Acrobatics/Athletics to escape being tied up (using stage-magic straight-jacket tricks to take up more space initially).

Sneaking a note to someone, or planting evidence, is another use. May be combined with the spell “Locate Object” to track someone.

Hiding that you’re looting the corpse as you “attempt” to use a healers kit comes to mind.

[diplomancer]

And the most controversial use of all, hiding somatic components of spellcasting. Some DMs allow it, others don't.

All of those DMs are right.

[Man_Over_Game]

Sleight of Hand isn't something I use very often, because 9 times out of 10, I need to be in stealth for it to even matter. What's the point of picking someone's pocket if they can see you around them? Like, is it just me, or do most people feel like trying to snag something important off of someone needs to be done when you can't be seen at all?

I think the thing that's tripping you up is that you're interpreting that the Stealth skill has a part in stealing something stealthily.

That'd make sense, but note that there are very few scenarios in modules that require multiple checks for success. There are several that use multiple checks for failure.

The difference is a DM that says:
"Roll Sleight of Hand. You succeeded. Now see if you get caught with a Stealth Check"
VS
"Roll Sleight of Hand. You failed. Now see if you get caught with a Stealth Check".

Modules often use something along the lines of avoiding a pit trap, followed by a potential Acrobatics check to avoid going prone (if your initial check failed). It's so, so SO much better to use multiple dice to determine failure than it is to use them to determine success. The more rolls for success the DM requires, the more the DM is choosing to increase the difficulty. 3 rolls with a 50% chance to succeed each will only have a 12.5% chance of success when combined.

The only reason someone should be using multiple rolls to determine success is if the challenge itself is some sort of supernatural difficulty where each step is incredibly delicate and intentionally oppressing. Harry Dresden's parkour through Hades's vault comes to mind.

If you want to stop making the mistake of requiring multiple rolls for permission, but you do want to include multiple rolls without lowering the difficulty, just increase the DC.

So instead of having:
A DC 15, with Sleight of Hand and Stealth to determine if you succeed.
Use:
A DC 20, with Sleight of Hand, using Stealth as a means of secondary success (that is, you can use Stealth on a failed Sleight of Hand to cover your mistake and not get caught).

This way, you can reward players for having multiple skills, instead of decreasing their chances of success by implementing more of them.

Now, I'm not saying that it's necessarily wrong to require both a successful Stealth AND a Sleight of Hand check to do it successfully, but I am saying that every time one of those can cause the event to fail, the DM is choosing to increase the chances of failure for the player. This could be an apt situation for stealing an item from an NPC, if the DM decided to cut down on pickpocketing and other criminal activities from the players by making them exceptionally difficult. But that should be an active choice, not something assumed because "There's a skill called Stealth, and you need to use it to hide anything you're doing".


This isn't a jab at OP, but it is a mistake I've seen a lot of DMs fall prey to.

[Segev]

Sneaking a note to someone, or planting evidence, is another use. May be combined with the spell “Locate Object” to track someone.

Clever, and I like the thought process, but consider that unless only the rogue is going to see the person on whom it's planted, the clothing that person was wearing is also something the caster likely saw, and the caster could just locate object for those clothes.

[Tanarii]

Clever, and I like the thought process, but consider that unless only the rogue is going to see the person on whom it's planted, the clothing that person was wearing is also something the caster likely saw, and the caster could just locate object for those clothes.Couple of ideas off the top of my head:
- it's way later and they changed their clothes but didn't ditch their purse. (1000 ft range makes this restrictive though)
- it's a courier dropping off a package you've planted something in, and you know which block but not which specific house

[Zalabim]

Hiding that you’re looting the corpse as you “attempt” to use a healers kit comes to mind.
I love healer's kits so I'm pocketing this and not even rolling for stealth.

[DrKerosene]

Clever, and I like the thought process, but consider that unless only the rogue is going to see the person on whom it's planted, the clothing that person was wearing is also something the caster likely saw, and the caster could just locate object for those clothes.

Yeah, I would expect that to be the simpler answer in general.

Maybe a DM rules that the target is using Prestidigitation to change the color of their jacket, and that is enough to thwart a description method for tracking an object. Maybe just Disguise Self to change a ratty brown coat into a fresh looking pink trendy thing for appearances.

I recently got through an adult dragon fight nude, wearing only a Disguise Self spell (though I’m not sure how reverse pick-pocketting would work there), can’t track me by my clothes!

Or maybe the target is under a Nondetection spell (or has one of those amulets), but using Locate Object on a random thing shortly before planting it will allow the target to be tracked anyways.

I was originally just thinking of getting something mundane past a bunch of Detect Magic spells and such, where a Familiar or mage might not be able to pass through, but a mundane Rogue would be fine.

And I generally go with a marked coin for planting on people, though I may go for a small nail, or piece of hard corn, something that could be stuck into a boot, or belt pouch, or possibly a hairdo.

[Garfunion]

When I DM I always have my players either roll a charisma (sleight-of-hand) check, if they’re trying to use a distraction like bumping into their mark or wisdom (sleight-of-hand) check if they’re attempting to use the environment/ spare of the moment. To me sleight-of-hand already implies nimble/dexterous fingers.

I use stealth in a similar manner. If my players are attempting to move quietly on the opposite side of the wall where the guard is patrolling, that is a dexterity (stealth) check. If they’re trying to find a hiding spot, that’s going to be a wisdom (stealth) check. And so on.

I tend to view all skills as pseudo-ability score before I determine which primary ability score applies.

[Magicspook]

Dont forget about non-stealing uses of SoH:
-tieing or untieing ropes
-Ive had a DM use it for snatching an object in mid-jump
-hiding the fact that you're casting a spell with somatic components

[HappyDaze]

Sleight of Hand can also be used to communicate simple things via gestures (hand signs) without those gestures being seen by others. In effect, it can be a great way to use Thieves' Cant without saying a word, but it can be used by others too.

[Segev]

Dont forget about non-stealing uses of SoH:
-tieing or untieing ropes

Why do you need a check for that?

[Sorinth]

Although it makes some sense to have two rolls for pickpocketing, a sleight of hand check to get the object and a stealth vs perception check to see if you are noticed. I don't think it's really necessary for most situations, I would maybe break it out for certain big moments, or if there's a reason such as your pickpocketing in a market square and there are a bunch of guards on the lookout for anything suspicious. But at the end of the day with expertise and an ally using the Help action by causing a distraction so that you get advantage you should be able to succeed pretty much all the time.

There's also things like steal an enemy caster's spell focus/component pouch in combat where it doesn't matter if you are seen or not.

[stoutstien]

Why do you need a check for that?

Alt rules for complex knots in XGtE.

[Sigreid]

In most cases where you would pick pocket, trying a stealth roll would make you more likely to get caught as you'd look very suspicious. A fairly normal way to pickpocket is to bump into someone in a crowd where bumping into each other lightly isn't that uncommon and make your move then.

[Sorinth]

In most cases where you would pick pocket, trying a stealth roll would make you more likely to get caught as you'd look very suspicious. A fairly normal way to pickpocket is to bump into someone in a crowd where bumping into each other lightly isn't that uncommon and make your move then.

Trying to blend into a crowd would also fall under Stealth.