faithful hound vs guardian of faith.

[kazaryu]

so. faithful hound vs guardian of faith. guardian of faith is the closest vanilla comparison, and now that i've actually spent quite a bit of time looking at faithful hound im actually wondering if faithful hound is objectively OP (in the same vein as how healing spirit is). Now, im not trying to make teh argument that its broken (i mean...come on how often is it *actually* gonna get used to its full potential.). im just tryna get peoples opinions on if it is actual powre creep. so the contenders.

Things that GoF does better than faithful hound
-controls a larger area. more specifically deals damage in a larger area (specifically a 6x6 vs 3x3)
-turn by turn hits for higher damage (but only slightly. also this might not actually be true, since the dog does ~18 damage per hit and has advantage on its attacks)
-is guaranteed to get damage, when it procs
-only requires the caster to be able to speak in order to cast the spell
-stays regardless of range from caster
-can affect smaller creatures

Now things that it does worse:
-has a hard cap on total damage (can deal at most 60 damage)
-has a hard cap on *frequency* of damage (only damages when the creature enters the area, not when they stay)
-deals a worse damage type (lets be real, how many monsters actually resist magical physical damage?)
-can't crit
-is visible, and so people know exactly where not to go
-doesn't act as an alarm system, therefore is unable to effectively guard an entire camp


i think that covers it. so the question is, do the pros of GoF balance out agaisnt hte cons it has (relative to faithful hound? i really don't think they do. remember, this is just a straight comparison of two spells. im not suggesting that GoF should be the standard in general. just it exists, and is the closest to faithful hound mechanically. and from what i can see faithful hand is far and away superior (in particular due to its lack of damage cap and its)
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[sithlordnergal]

I mean, I'd say its balanced mostly because one is only available to Clerics, and the other is only available to Wizards. The only time you'd have the option of casting one or the other would be if you're a level 14 Cleric/Wizard with a 7/7 split.

EDIT: That said, I think I'd take Faithful Hound over Guardian of Faith, mostly because Faithful Hound acts as both an Alarm spell, and a damaging spell for 8 hours. Meanwhile Guardian of Faith just deals damage.

[kazaryu]

I mean, I'd say its balanced mostly because one is only available to Clerics, and the other is only available to Wizards. The only time you'd have the option of casting one or the other would be if you're a level 14 Cleric/Wizard with a 7/7 split.

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Im not sure how that relates to balance...healing spirit is only available to druids and its objectively op when compared to aura of vitality (its closest mechanical comparator)

[DrKerosene]

If I was a Bard trying to decide between them for a Magical Secret, I’d probably go for the Hound (to combine with Tiny Hut).

Faithful Hound seems better for guarding a camp at night. But GoF can be left behind like a trap (to manage a wide chokepoint), ignores AC (which might be an important option against some enemies), has a lower chance of the damage being resisted, and could be extended when cast by a Divine Soul Sorcerer.

It would seem that the Hound will mostly ignore Tiny creatures, so things like Pixies and Imps could still sneak by.

Both spells should be able to injure invisible creatures, but GoF would be better as a “Sprite-Zapper”.

[MrStabby]

So my view is neither are really a good use of the spell slot unless you have some kind of plan to abuse them, some kind of combo with another ability or skill, like a grapple.

Given you wouldn't cast it in other conditions, I would ask which is the most abusable. This is then the hound.

Edit:

To disappear the GoF must have dealt a total of 60 damage, not more or less. Any way to boost or reduce the damage to a number that is relatively prime to 60? Absolutely certain that this isn't the RAI for the spell though.

I suppose a mix of radiant resistant and non resistant enemies would work. 20 damage, 20 damage, 10 damage, 20 damage... and then the guardian can never have done a total of 60 damage. Given how silly this is... it is slightly sad that it still seems pretty bad!

[stoutstien]

Do people generally rules that faithful hound has advantage on it's attack? I figured the advantage from attacking unseen only applies to creatures.

Other than that it's hard to compare them straight up .
HoH and GoF with a celestial warlock can make a pretty good blender.

MFH can can deal more damage but with a much smaller target area and ends if you move away from it.


Both take a lot of set up to match other stock 4th lv spells

[MrStabby]

Do people generally rules that faithful hound has advantage on it's attack? I figured the advantage from attacking unseen only applies to creatures.

Other than that it's hard to compare them straight up .
HoH and GoF with a celestial warlock can make a pretty good blender.

MFH can can deal more damage but with a much smaller target area and ends if you move away from it.


Both take a lot of set up to match other stock 4th lv spells

I think it is just any attacker... so yeah, I rule it has advantage.

What I think is more controversial is if opportunity attacks can be made.

[stoutstien]

I think it is just any attacker... so yeah, I rule it has advantage.

What I think is more controversial is if opportunity attacks can be made.

Blah. Both spells are badly worded. I don't see the much at my tables so I haven't really looked at them T length. Does the hound's 30 ft alarm rely of line of sight?

[sithlordnergal]

Blah. Both spells are badly worded. I don't see the much at my tables so I haven't really looked at them T length. Does the hound's 30 ft alarm rely of line of sight?

I don't believe it requires line of sight in order for it to activate. Faithful Hound states "When a Small or larger creature comes within 30 feet of it without first speaking the password that you specify when you cast this spell, the hound starts barking loudly. The hound sees invisible creatures and can see into the Ethereal Plane. It ignores illusions."

Alarm has sort of a similar wording, "...an alarm alerts you whenever a tiny or larger creature touches or enters the warded area."

Neither spell states that the spell must be able to perceive whatever creature enters the area. So it could be that creatures are just automatically detected, even if they are hidden and there is no line of sight.


Im not sure how that relates to balance...healing spirit is only available to druids and its objectively op when compared to aura of vitality (its closest mechanical comparator)

Ehh, I think that was more comparable balance wise since both of those are level 2 spells. So its easier to obtain with a small-ish dip. Not to mention Druids and Clerics serve a similar role to each other with their spell casting. Both tend to use battlefield control, buffs, ect. to aid their allies, and both tend to be pretty competent healers. Clerics and Wizards have extremely different roles in a party.

That said, I guess you could compare them...in which case Faithful Hound is far, far better than Guardian of Faith.

[MaxWilson]

Things that GoF does better than faithful hound
-controls a larger area. more specifically deals damage in a larger area (specifically a 6x6 vs 3x3)
-turn by turn hits for higher damage (but only slightly. also this might not actually be true, since the dog does ~18 damage per hit and has advantage on its attacks)
-is guaranteed to get damage, when it procs
-only requires the caster to be able to speak in order to cast the spell

- Doesn't disappear if the caster moves further away than the length of a very small parking lot.

[Segev]

Eh. While a RAW argument can be made that the spell doesn’t say the hound has to perceive the creatures, the fact it immediately tells us the hound’s perceptive gifts after talking about what triggers its barking does imply an intention that it should see them.

Alarm lacking such intent-revealing implications is interesting, too, and seems to make it work through any obstruction. I don’t think it used to do that, but “emanation” isn’t an area type in 5e. (I could be misremembering 3.5 though: was alarm an emanation then?)

[Tanarii]

Blah. Both spells are badly worded. I don't see the much at my tables so I haven't really looked at them T length. Does the hound's 30 ft alarm rely of line of sight?
It relies on clear path to the target, at least on the prime plane. All spells do unless they have an exception.

[nickl_2000]

Im not sure how that relates to balance...healing spirit is only available to druids and its objectively op when compared to aura of vitality (its closest mechanical comparator)

Not anymore it isn't.

[MaxWilson]

Not anymore it isn't.

Well, yeah but now Aura of Vitality (available only to paladins and bards) is back to being objectively OP compared to other healing spells. :) The point still stands, only the example has changed.