Can inherent bonus exceed +5?

[Melcar]

So, I was looking through the Team Solar (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?188138-Team-Solars-(Archiving)) write-ups, to get some inspiration for new and exiting combinations of stuff for my wizard, and I was thinking a few things... Since my thought is not used in the build itself I assume it cant be done, but I'm unsure myself, so I'm going to ask here.

Can I combine Ability Enhancer (DM#325) with the casting of Wish, to gain higher than 5 inherent bonus to a stat? I assume not, but usually the combined knowledge of this forum far exceeds my own understanding of the rules, so I want to be certain here.

Also, on more of a side note, how many mistakes are there in the builds... as can be seen I had some questions for Douglas back in the day, but apparently and as have happened many times I was in the wrong, but what if any has he made of mistakes?

Thanks in advance!

EDIT: So I noticed (how could I miss it) that ability enhancer only affects transmutation effects... thus not affecting wish since its from the universal school of magic... Please allow me to rephrase the question:

Is it possible, in any way shape or form, to increase inherent bonus beyond +5, and if so how?

My second questions still stands!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're undead, and you use the Fell Energy metamagic feat from Dragon Compendium, the bonus each Wish grants is increased by +2, thus giving you a +15 inherent bonus from 5 Wishes.

Edit: A Wizard (Transmuter) with Spell Versatility (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#transmuterVariants) can make it count as a Transmutation, so Ability Enhancer could still apply to that.

Combine those two and you're getting +5 per Wish, for a +25 inherent bonus from five such Wishes.

[Kayblis]

The post

This is completely wrong. Inherent bonuses are not capped by your amount of Wish casts. Inherent bonuses have a hardcap of +5, according to the DMG. There's no way around that hardcap, and even Epic Items are restricted by it.

This means you could use Ability Enhancer, netting you a +3 for the first Wish cast, and the second Wish cast caps you off at +5. You don't have anything that lets you break this cap, so the last point is wasted, but this means you can cap a stat off with only 2 casts of Wish. That's 12 casts for a +5 to all stats, as opposed to 30 normally.

[AvatarVecna]

This is completely wrong. Inherent bonuses are not capped by your amount of Wish casts. Inherent bonuses have a hardcap of +5, according to the DMG. There's no way around that hardcap, and even Epic Items are restricted by it.

This means you could use Ability Enhancer, netting you a +3 for the first Wish cast, and the second Wish cast caps you off at +5. You don't have anything that lets you break this cap, so the last point is wasted, but this means you can cap a stat off with only 2 casts of Wish. That's 12 casts for a +5 to all stats, as opposed to 30 normally.

Came here to say this. Although they're not 100% wrong, because you could use Ability Enhancer + Fell Energy (if you're undead) to cast a single Wish and get +5 inherent. That's way more efficient.

...but yeah, AFAIK every source of getting inherent bonuses mentions "oh btw this bonus can never ever be bigger than +5".

[Bphill561]

Just pulling from the SRD


Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.

It does not say you can only cast the spell 5 times in a row, it states you cannot exceed a +5. The trick still works to get there with less xp. Also the spell Shroud of Undeath from the spell compendium (level 2) makes you count as undead for spells that specifically effect undead. There are higher levels spells, but this one is cheaper. So you are not limited to being full time undead.

Ability Enhancer and Fell Energy Spell were definitely used on my Sublime Chord build to buff Cha into the 70's.

There is the Gorgon's Horn optional spell component.. some place. It grants a bonus 2 points higher for spells that increase Strength.

[tenshiakodo]

I know this thread pertains to 3.5, but I had a Pathfinder question along the same lines: in Pathfinder 1e, it says the same thing about maximum inherent bonuses, but the Sorcerer Orc Bloodline has this ability:

Strength of the Beast (Ex): At 9th level, you gain a +2 inherent bonus to your Strength. This bonus increases to +4 at 13th level, and to +6 at 17th level.

Is this in error, or does the explicit text trump the general rule?

[Rebel7284]

I wonder if reserves of strength could be used for this. Probably not because it's not a spell cap that's creating a limit but a rule of the game.

[AvatarVecna]

I know this thread pertains to 3.5, but I had a Pathfinder question along the same lines: in Pathfinder 1e, it says the same thing about maximum inherent bonuses, but the Sorcerer Orc Bloodline has this ability:

Strength of the Beast (Ex): At 9th level, you gain a +2 inherent bonus to your Strength. This bonus increases to +4 at 13th level, and to +6 at 17th level.

Is this in error, or does the explicit text trump the general rule?

That'd fall under "specific trumps general" I think.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Good point about it being hard capped at +5, regardless of the number of Wishes used.

That +5 maximum is indeed in the DMG on page 21, so it's not part of any spell that could be overcome with Reserves of Strength or similar.

However, that combo can save you a ton of XP costs. Just Ability Enhancer reduces the number of wishes needed from five to two, and if there's a market for NPC spellcasting that you can butt in on, you could charge customers for a +5 bonus as though five Wishes (and five times the xp cost) were cast.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Kingdoms of Kalamar's Player's Guide has the Loyalty's Reward feat. Use it to craft a feat that allows you to break the +5 inherent bonus cap?

[RNightstalker]

The ELH affirms the +5 max, though I don't think it would be too difficult to figure out something to houserule that...are inherent bonuses the only ones that don't have an epic progression?

[Yogibear41]

I know this thread pertains to 3.5, but I had a Pathfinder question along the same lines: in Pathfinder 1e, it says the same thing about maximum inherent bonuses, but the Sorcerer Orc Bloodline has this ability:

Strength of the Beast (Ex): At 9th level, you gain a +2 inherent bonus to your Strength. This bonus increases to +4 at 13th level, and to +6 at 17th level.

Is this in error, or does the explicit text trump the general rule?


There is a prestige class in one of the Dragonlance books that does the same thing, you end up with a +6 inherent bonus to strength. Would definitely agree with the specific trumps general rule.

[AvatarVecna]

There is a prestige class in one of the Dragonlance books that does the same thing, you end up with a +6 inherent bonus to strength. Would definitely agree with the specific trumps general rule.

There's also a first-party Oracle revelation in Pathfinder that gives a gradually-leveling inherent bonus to Int that isn't explicitly capped, but would be +5 by 20th level. Idk if there's a general rule that Pathfinder class features stop improving past lvl 20, I just know that by default PF doesn't have epic play.

I think there's also a sorcerer bloodline like the one they mentioned that eventually gives +6 inherent to...I wanna say Con? But I don't recall which one it is, so it might be 3pp.

[Asmotherion]

Inherent bonuses always cap at +5, and don't stack, unless the source specifically tells you otherwise (for example the Wish clause).

The +5 cap even applies to the Epic Seed "enhance", and if you can't bypass it with an epic spell, I doupt there would be an other way. That's also a good rule of thumb for most things in 3.5

[ViperMagnum357]

There are definitely a few exceptions where specific trumps general, though some of them are pretty obscure and weird. One of the Nether Scrolls from Lost Empires of Faerun, the Arcanis Fundare, provides a +30 inherent bonus...to Spellcraft checks. It is a Minor Artifact and would generally be DM fiat, but bizarre nonetheless. I do not know if there is another first party inherent bonus that big.

[ThanatosZero]

There is another way to exceed the limit, but it is more retroactively changing the past.

If you was to utter the wish, "I wish I was much more observant and eager to learn the life lessons others underwent, way before I started adventuring", the DM may allow you to reroll a stat of your choice, in this case wisdom.

Assuming you had 10 in Wisdom at the start of the very first session with that character and you score with 4d6 a result of 18 for example, that stat would retroactively replace the starting stat. If the roll was lower than or equal 10, the wish could fizzle away without any effect "or" you get your stat replaced with a stat of one point higher of to a maximum of 18, before any modifier are applied.

Do that with any stat and with some luck and many tries, you could end up as wizard gish sporting these stats.

Str: 23 (18+5 inherent)
Dex: 23 (18+5 inherent)
Con: 23 (18+5 inherent)
Int: 28 (18 +5 ability increase +5 inherent)
Wis: 23 (18+5 inherent)
Cha: 23 (18+5 inherent)

Of course, this is more of a suggestion, if the DM is more willing to do this, instead of lifting with rule 0 the +5 inherent bonus limit.

[Segev]

Is there a particular reason you want to get inherent bonuses above +5? Or is this just a thought exercise? I ask because we have ways in Epic Spell creation to make arbitrary high bonuses to stats from other bonus types. Is there something specific about inherent bonuses you need?

[Goaty14]

If you was to utter the wish, "I wish I was much more observant and eager to learn the life lessons others underwent, way before I started adventuring", the DM may allow you to reroll a stat of your choice, in this case wisdom.

Or the DM may revert you to a time way before you started adventuring, and turn you into a baby, degrading your base stats appropriately :smalltongue:.

Wish is not a custom spell. Any desired effect that isn't explicit in the text isn't guaranteed to work, much less in your favor.

[Segev]

One of the ways around this for physical stats, at least, is body-snatching. Possess or transform into something with bigger, better stats.

But again, I don't know that this addresses the OP's concerns, because he asked specifically about Inherent bonuses.

[flappeercraft]

There are definitely a few exceptions where specific trumps general, though some of them are pretty obscure and weird. One of the Nether Scrolls from Lost Empires of Faerun, the Arcanis Fundare, provides a +30 inherent bonus...to Spellcraft checks. It is a Minor Artifact and would generally be DM fiat, but bizarre nonetheless. I do not know if there is another first party inherent bonus that big.

Actually, this wouldn't be contradicting the +5 limit established in the DMG.

"An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score"

[SirNibbles]

"An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score"

So all you have to do is get an inherent bonus to multiple ability scores somehow.

Actual text from DMG and Rules Compendium:





Inherent
An inherent bonus is a bonus to an ability score that results from powerful magic. A creature is limited to a total inherent bonus of +5 to any ability score.

Dungeon Master's Guide, page 21/Rules Compendium, page 21

[ThanatosZero]

Or the DM may revert you to a time way before you started adventuring, and turn you into a baby, degrading your base stats appropriately :smalltongue:.
Such DMs should warn beforehand, that the wish will backfire speculary, if they don't agree with it.


Wish is not a custom spell. Any desired effect that isn't explicit in the text isn't guaranteed to work, much less in your favor.

Remember DMs always have the absolute, final word with everything.
Rule 0 makes it clear, that all the rules are more guidelines than anything.

[AvatarVecna]

Such DMs should warn beforehand, that the wish will backfire speculary, if they don't agree with it.



Remember DMs always have the absolute, final word with everything.
Rule 0 makes it clear, that all the rules are more guidelines than anything.

You're not wrong, but the point they're making is that wish has this problem more than other mechanics in the game. The DM is always allowed to interfere with no regard for the sanctity of mechanics if they so choose, but big Wishes is one point within the mechanical system where the DM is expected to interfere.

[Kish]

There's also a first-party Oracle revelation in Pathfinder that gives a gradually-leveling inherent bonus to Int that isn't explicitly capped, but would be +5 by 20th level. Idk if there's a general rule that Pathfinder class features stop improving past lvl 20, I just know that by default PF doesn't have epic play.
More than by default; Pathfinder is very firm on "no levels beyond 20th." If you develop when you're already level 20, it's by adding mythic tiers instead.

[Biggus]

More than by default; Pathfinder is very firm on "no levels beyond 20th." If you develop when you're already level 20, it's by adding mythic tiers instead.

Not so, there are rules in the PF SRD for advancing beyond 20th level (they do caution that they're only intended to take you a few levels past 20th however, and will rapidly become very broken if taken much further).

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement/

(Scroll about two-thirds of the way down the page)

[Vaern]

Epic magic items typically let you break the normal limits of wondrous items by multiplying their market price by a significant factor, but upon checking the SRD definitions of what qualifies as an epic item it calls out inherent bonuses as being impossible to raise beyond +5 even by epic means.

[AvatarVecna]

Epic magic items typically let you break the normal limits of wondrous items by multiplying their market price by a significant factor, but upon checking the SRD definitions of what qualifies as an epic item it calls out inherent bonuses as being impossible to raise beyond +5 even by epic means.

Not just epic magic items - the only epic spell seed that even mentions inherent bonus to attributes also has this limitation (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/fortify.htm).

[ThanatosZero]

I have a idea, in regards how to make inherent bonuses better.

Instead of hard limiting them to a eternal +5 bonus, we make them progressive.

The inherent bonus limit for all creatures are 1 + 1 per 4 hit dices for each stat.
Or alternatively 1 + 1 per 4 caster levels by the caster or the creator of manuals and tomes.

The former gives a limit, which not even a epic caster can suceed on empowering on a level 1 commoner.
Fluff would explain it, that the body and mind needs to expand its limits first for to handle the granted power.

The latter can be exploited by pushing the CL beyound the maximum HD, which may lead to some frustrated players and DMs alike, if the really broken methods are utilised.