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aglondier
2020-04-10, 02:13 PM
Hey all.
My dwarf fighter, lateborn youngest son of a commoner family, of a fairly midrank clan, seeks to wed his childhood sweetheart...who just happens to be the daughter of the High King of the Dwarves. When he sought to approach the king, the crown prince took him aside and in no uncertain terms told him he wasn't worthy, and that She was Duty-bound to marry to the advantage of the kingdom. The prince also said that if one were to raise their station, the king might consider their suit... So he promptly trotted off in search of adventure.

What I am seeking here is ideas for ways my common-born fighter could achieve the fame, wealth, and titles that would allow him to gain the notice and respect of a king.

My initial thoughts are:
• Acquire or craft a Named weapon (ie a magical weapon)
• Gather a company of fighting dwarves to his Banner (leadership feat + ?)
• Slay a mighty beast (dragonslayer is a pretty respectable title)

Any ideas or examples would be appreciated.

GrayDeath
2020-04-10, 02:23 PM
Well, you could go the Dragon Age route and simply assassinate the King, the Crown prince, and any other Noble in the way?



Jokes aside. How static is your Dwarf Society? Ergo how easy is it for powerful/skilled Dwarfes to become Nobles or their Equivalent?

That determines the help you will need, and the likelyness of success, quite massively.

aglondier
2020-04-10, 02:33 PM
The King knows of him, and is not unsympathetic, but Duty comes first. That said, he has declared that his daughter will be wed after her 100th birthday, and she is currently 51. (my character is 54)
The Crown Prince is a duty first kind of guy as well.
The second prince is staunchly anti-commoner, and detests my character.
The nobility are pretty static, and will definitely need to be satisfied of his worthiness.
The People would never be okay with the princess forsaking Duty for something so flighty and elfish as Love.

And no, killing off all my prospective inlaws is not going to work...

GrayDeath
2020-04-10, 02:45 PM
OK, so you ahve a lot of time to do it.

From the top of my head:

Instigating a War where Crown princes can be "tragically lost" and your Character can show his mettle might work. (and has tradition with many a Dwarven Clan Feud going like this^^).

Founding a Mercenary Company, mercing around for 0 years, and coming back more powerful than any other Dwarf is always nice.

Killing of the ancient Draconic Foe of your specific Dwarven Civilization is sure to work, but hardest to do.

Edit. Or, since wa ARE talking about Dwarves, just buy your title. Getting insanely rich would likely be easier than the other options.

farothel
2020-04-10, 03:20 PM
Make a stance against the great tree invasion. :smallbiggrin:

If you can arrange it, you can get something to threaten the princess and then come to her rescue. Or even better, the king himself. That way you can show your worth.

EDIT: if there is a lost ancestral weapon or artefact, recovering that migth also help.

Mr.Sandman
2020-04-10, 03:35 PM
Help one of your short lived Human party members build a kingdom with similar goals/ morals as your nation, they are now inclined to become trading partners/ allies to your nation. This gives your nation a new source of imports/ exports and you probably get the cool psudo-noble title of Ambassador, are thus no longer a commoner, and that second brother no longer has a leg to stand on.

As a bonus, the more generations you can afford to wait, the more you can become the cool/ wise uncle/ advisor figure to the following rulers of the kingdom, thus being more important and a higher up noble.

Coventry
2020-04-10, 04:41 PM
Are there any "lost kingdoms of dwarves" in the campaign history? Finding and restoring one to its former glory is a time-honored tradition all the way back to Tolkien.

Founding a new kingdom is just as good. And if the new kingdom has resources to trade that the old one needs, the other king will see her marriage to your character as "advantageous".

Maybe make enough money to buy your way to leadership of a local human town that trades with the dwarves. You'll still be a commoner in the prince's eyes, but your marriage will be advantageous.



Do a massive favor for the deity of the dwarves. Having Moradin say, "it will make me happy to attend their wedding" would shut down any and all objections. And would drive off any dwarven suitors/competition.

Clistenes
2020-04-10, 08:57 PM
Slaying a dragon really covers a lot of bases:

1.-You become respected (who wouldn't respect a dude who killed a dragon?!).
2.-You become rich (by stealing his hoard).
3.-You become too ****ing scary to be refused without good reason (if a guy who slays dragons were to enter the room and walk towards me, I swear I would soil my pants...).

Aliess
2020-04-11, 03:23 AM
-Found a new kingdom that rivals/poses a threat to your current one and then threaten to declare war unless they agree to marriage seems to be the traditional approach.

-Get lucky and root or a traitorous Noble. Ask for their title as your reward.

-Wipe out the neighboring orc/goblin/human tribe and add their land to the territory claimed by your people. Ask for a title as the reward.

-Find a really old dwarf Noble and be so nice to them that they adopt you and then die peacefully of old age.

aglondier
2020-04-11, 05:19 AM
OK, so you ahve a lot of time to do it.

From the top of my head:

Instigating a War where Crown princes can be "tragically lost" and your Character can show his mettle might work. (and has tradition with many a Dwarven Clan Feud going like this^^).

Founding a Mercenary Company, mercing around for 0 years, and coming back more powerful than any other Dwarf is always nice.

Killing of the ancient Draconic Foe of your specific Dwarven Civilization is sure to work, but hardest to do.

Edit. Or, since wa ARE talking about Dwarves, just buy your title. Getting insanely rich would likely be easier than the other options.

Plenty of time, yes. Not sneaky enough for realm-scale subterfuge. Merc company definitely on the cards. Currently 4th level, so will hold off on dragon slaying, but definitely planning it. Buying a title while perfectly valid, kinda lacking in glory.


Make a stance against the great tree invasion. :smallbiggrin:

If you can arrange it, you can get something to threaten the princess and then come to her rescue. Or even better, the king himself. That way you can show your worth.

EDIT: if there is a lost ancestral weapon or artefact, recovering that migth also help.

Realm-scale subterfuge is still not my forte. Any suggestion for a suitable 'artifact'?


Help one of your short lived Human party members build a kingdom...(snip)

Bizarrely, there are no actual humans in our party. We have a dwarf, a gnome, a goblin, an elf, a halfelf, a changeling, and some northerner bloke who is clearly too big to be a human. And despite there being a paladin in the party, I suspect my dwarf may be the only good aligned character there. Not sure I'd trust any of them to run a kingdom.


Are there any "lost kingdoms of dwarves" in the campaign history? Finding and restoring one to its former glory is a time-honored tradition all the way back to Tolkien.

Founding a new kingdom is just as good. And if the new kingdom has resources to trade that the old one needs, the other king will see her marriage to your character as "advantageous". (Snip)

Do a massive favor for the deity of the dwarves. Having Moradin say, "it will make me happy to attend their wedding" would shut down any and all objections. And would drive off any dwarven suitors/competition.

Pathfinder has plenty of lost dwarven kingdoms. Might need a bigger merc company before I try reclaiming one. Torag (moradin analogue) might be worth cultivating...


Slaying a dragon really covers a lot of bases:

1.-You become respected (who wouldn't respect a dude who killed a dragon?!).
2.-You become rich (by stealing his hoard).
3.-You become too ****ing scary to be refused without good reason (if a guy who slays dragons were to enter the room and walk towards me, I swear I would soil my pants...).

On my check list...


-Found a new kingdom that rivals/poses a threat to your current one and then threaten to declare war unless they agree to marriage seems to be the traditional approach.

-Get lucky and root or a traitorous Noble. Ask for their title as your reward.

-Wipe out the neighboring orc/goblin/human tribe and add their land to the territory claimed by your people. Ask for a title as the reward.

-Find a really old dwarf Noble and be so nice to them that they adopt you and then die peacefully of old age.

..."root" is Australian slang for sexual intercourse...not sure about prostituting my character for a title...

paddyfool
2020-04-11, 08:43 AM
Demonstrate leadership and heroism at every turn. Take the Leadership feat too, but live it as well as simply having the mechanic. Meanwhile, be pious, honourable, and thoroughly dwarfy, so as to generally be beyond reproach. Invest enough in crafting skills yada yada to do proper smithing etc where it's appropriate. Eventually become the ruler of somewhere or other near enough to your homeland to be annexed or allied, and then propose some such arrangement to your homeland if it's amenable to the people you're ruling. They'd pretty much have to give you a title if you don't have one already by this point. Cement the arrangement with a wedding.

Silly Name
2020-04-11, 09:05 AM
Well, good news! You're an adventurer with half a century of time to get what you want. Most advice in the thread is good, but the main goal should be to become the dwarfiest dwarf who ever dwarfed while also being a successful adventurer. With how things go for Pathfinder adventurers, you'll eventually save the world or a large part of it, get involved in wars for the continued existence of your homeland and generally rack up enough of a reputation and following that nobody could earnestly argue that marrying you wouldn't be beneficial.

The royal consort being the saviour of the world is a great incentive for other nations to like you and don't try to mess with your kingdoms, especially if you have equally powerful friends with a large following who'd come to your help if ever needed.

Wraith
2020-04-11, 10:40 AM
Does your clan have an archivist, or some kind of old lore-keeper? Maybe some kind of equivalent to a judge or respected arbitrator of Dwarf law and lore? If you do, or if you can find one who will be happy to talk to you, go and ask them if what you are attempting to do has happened before, and how it was achieved.

Duty-bound Dwarves LOVE that kind of stuff! Following in the example of your ancestors not only gives you a hook for a plot to follow, but in RP terms it proves that there's an established legal precedent for becoming a noble/hero/prince-consort/whatever would work in your situation.
Being duty-bound cuts both ways - the nobility/crown-prince who stand in your way can demand that you prove yourself, but once you have that proof then they are OBLIGED to accept you, because doing otherwise is very anti-dwarfish. :smalltongue:

wilphe
2020-04-11, 10:45 AM
Take all three levels of Dwarf Paragon, then any other relevant Dwarf Prestige class that fits your build.

Become Dwarfiest Dwarf ever.

farothel
2020-04-11, 11:31 AM
..."root" is Australian slang for sexual intercourse...not sure about prostituting my character for a title...

I think they meant 'root out' a traiterous noble, as in get some goods on him/her, expose him/her and then claim his/her title as reward.

Brother Oni
2020-04-11, 01:21 PM
I think they meant 'root out' a traiterous noble, as in get some goods on him/her, expose him/her and then claim his/her title as reward.

Or take the Mount and Blade route, support a noble with a legitimate claim to the throne or other usurper and overthrow the monarchy, installing them as ruler, with a noble title as your reward.

Of course this way won't go down well with the OP's bride and her surviving relatives...

Aliess
2020-04-11, 04:16 PM
I think they meant 'root out' a traiterous noble, as in get some goods on him/her, expose him/her and then claim his/her title as reward.

I did indeed, cheers!

LibraryOgre
2020-04-11, 05:22 PM
Step one: Get a really good friend (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrVbuB5aXkM)

Step 2: make yourself publicly notable. The people won't stand for it, unless the people call for it. You need to be, to steal from Dragon Age, a Paragon... do something so notable that they cannot ignore you, and that you marrying the princess is seen as not just a good option, but practically necessary.

aglondier
2020-04-12, 05:36 AM
Demonstrate leadership and heroism at every turn. Take the Leadership feat too, but live it as well as simply having the mechanic. Meanwhile, be pious, honourable, and thoroughly dwarfy, so as to generally be beyond reproach. Invest enough in crafting skills yada yada to do proper smithing etc where it's appropriate. (snip).

Well, good news! You're an adventurer with half a century of time to get what you want. Most advice in the thread is good, but the main goal should be to become the dwarfiest dwarf who ever dwarfed while also being a successful adventurer. (snip)

Take all three levels of Dwarf Paragon, then any other relevant Dwarf Prestige class that fits your build.
Become Dwarfiest Dwarf ever.

Being paragon of dwarfishness is on the cards. Dwarf paragon is okay. Does anyone know of any other dwarf prestige class besides Stalwart Defender, not sure i want to give up my mobility.


Does your clan have an archivist, or some kind or old lore-keeper? Maybe some kind of equivalent to a judge or respected arbitrator of Dwarf law and lore? If you do, or if you can find one who will be happy to talk to you, go and ask them if what you are attempting to do has happened before, and how it was achieved.

Duty-bound Dwarves LOVE that kind of stuff! Following in the example of your ancestors not only gives you a hook for a plot to follow, but in RP terms it proves that there's an established legal precedent for becoming a noble/hero/prince-consort/whatever would work in your situation.
Being duty-bound cuts both ways - the nobility/crown-prince who stand in your way can demand that you prove yourself, but once you have that proof then they are OBLIGED to accept you, because doing otherwise is very anti-dwarfish. :smalltongue:
Good idea.


Or take the Mount and Blade route, support a noble with a legitimate claim to the throne or other usurper and overthrow the monarchy, installing them as ruler, with a noble title as your reward.

Of course this way won't go down well with the OP's bride and her surviving relatives...
Not sure she would be happy with that, fairly sure the GM would love it though.


Step one: Get a really good friend.
Step 2: make yourself publicly notable. The people won't stand for it, unless the people call for it. You need to be, to steal from Dragon Age, a Paragon... do something so notable that they cannot ignore you, and that you marrying the princess is seen as not just a good option, but practically necessary.

I did not even click that I had borrowed the basic plot of Aladdin. Hilarious.

LibraryOgre
2020-04-12, 11:43 AM
I did not even click that I had borrowed the basic plot of Aladdin. Hilarious.

I am mad at ALL OF YOU for me being the first person to mention it.

Spore
2020-04-12, 12:22 PM
I am mad at ALL OF YOU for me being the first person to mention it.

But honestly short of staging the whole "make yourself worthy to the kingdom" thing yourself (aka infiltrating and then assassinating a threat that wouldn't be there if it where not for your character), you are pretty much bound to react to whatever the world has in store for you.

The duty first dudes will respect a grand deed. Inquire that vexes the kingdom the most currently and solve the problem. Next you might need your group to investigate about the anti-commoner prince. Basically dig up some dirt against him, so if he breaks his word, you have something working against him. Dwarves become centuries old. There MUST be something that does not speak for him.

Pauly
2020-04-13, 04:26 AM
If you look at irl situations where a commoner wed the heir.
Most common
- being a successful general with your own powerbase.

Less common in rigid hierarchies but reasonably common in more flexible hierarchies.
- being a famous actor or otherwise fantastically charismatic. Being very good in bed helps, but more so for females than males.

Known to happen if the kingdom has run put of money
- being stupendously wealthy. Getting adopted by a family with sufficient gravitas helps.

Seems to be more mythos than real history.
- being a lost scion of a royal line or an illegitimate heir from the wrong side of the sheets. Possibly used as a cover story to create a semi-plausible post hoc justification.

Also (but I don’t think this is what the OP is looking for).
- kingdom descends into chaos as the strongest person left standing declares themself to be the king.

Satinavian
2020-04-13, 05:14 AM
If you look at irl situations where a commoner wed the heir.
Most common
- being a successful general with your own powerbase.

Less common in rigid hierarchies but reasonably common in more flexible hierarchies.
- being a famous actor or otherwise fantastically charismatic. Being very good in bed helps, but more so for females than males.

Known to happen if the kingdom has run put of money
- being stupendously wealthy. Getting adopted by a family with sufficient gravitas helps.

Seems to be more mythos than real history.
- being a lost scion of a royal line or an illegitimate heir from the wrong side of the sheets. Possibly used as a cover story to create a semi-plausible post hoc justification.

Also (but I don’t think this is what the OP is looking for).
- kingdom descends into chaos as the strongest person left standing declares themself to be the king.
True, but we are NOT looking at wedding the heir. It is about wedding a sibbling of the heir. Someone usually married off to somewhere else for both an alliance and to provide a proper place to live.


So you need :

- Your own stronghold/country/estate/wealth to support a livestyle fitting for a princess.
- Influence or power that can be called upon in times of need.

Should both be feasable during an adventuring career.

Silly Name
2020-04-13, 06:36 AM
Being paragon of dwarfishness is on the cards. Dwarf paragon is okay. Does anyone know of any other dwarf prestige class besides Stalwart Defender, not sure i want to give up my mobility.


If you feel like taking a dip of Scout (it's not necessary, but it makes fulfilling the requirements easier, I'd suggest either 2 or 4 levels), the Deepwarden class from Races of Stone is meant for dwarves, doesn't sacrifice mobility and has the awesome 2nd-level class feature of letting you add your Con to AC in place of Dex.

If you use the Tome of Battle, you'd be almost obligated to take the Deepstone Sentinel class: it's what the Dwarven Defender is supposed to be, it makes you an actual tank with field control who can stop an enemy's charge and has super-easy requirements. If you can take levels in this class, do. While you're still an epitome of dwarven morals, this class and the Deepwarden are most beneficial in a strictly gaming perspective: they'll make you a better fighter, but they won't necessarily advance your standing in dwarven society past being considered an excellent fighter.

If you want to embark on the path of the hammer-and-axe dual-wielding, quasi-barbarian dwarf, you might want to take a look at the Dwarven Thane, from Dragon #299. It's a bit underwhelming, especially on what the class features do when compared to the pompous names and descriptions they get, but it can be fun and is definitely a path that'd make other dwarves admire your battle prowess and adhesion to dwarven religion. However, this is probably the worst of the bunch, but quite flavorful.

Another really cool class once again comes the Races of Stone splatbook: the Battlesmith. Now, what makes this class really cool is that it allows you to create magic weapons and armor without having to actually take caster levels, and makes you really good at using weapons and armors crafted by you. You basically join the very dwarven tradition of forging fantastical armaments with the also very dwarven tradition of smackin' people in the face with an hammer. If you want to take a couple of levels as a cleric of Moradin, you'll get even better at crafting things and might mix some divine magic with your fighting (although you'll obviously won't be a really powerful caster). Either way, you're assured to gain the respect and admiration of your fellow dwarves and maybe even make some coin off the side selling some of your creations, which is always nice.

kyoryu
2020-04-13, 09:13 AM
It comes down to the King. What does he want? What does he need? What does he hope to gain from the marriage of his daughter?

Factors to consider: His daughter and how she feels (even in a "wed for the good of the realm" situation, he's has emotions and love), the other nobles and how they'll judge him, his standing in the community, whatever societal norms exist.

Those are all the things to overcome.

I'm presuming that the daughter is into it. So in that case it would appear that the major issues are:

1) the lack of utility from a political alliance
This is the hardest to fix, I think. Unless the adventurer somehow becomes a minor lord in his own right, it's gonna be tough to argue for the union from a political standpoint. The best he can do is likely provide some amount of material benefit in various ways that he can bring to the table.

2) the impression of the nobles of the king
The nobles are going to expect certain things of the king. What are they? How can the adventurer provide these things, if he even can? Prestige, knowing that someone with a noble demeanor will be in court, assistance to the realm, etc.

3) the societal expectations
Likely the easiest thing to resolve, honestly. All Mr. Suitor has to do is save the kingdom from some dwarfy threat and he becomes a mighty hero in their eyes, and worthy of the hand of the Princess. Some smart marketing can help with this - "Throw a coin to your dwarfer, oh Miiine of Plenty, of Miiine of Plenty, whoa-oh-oh"

Segev
2020-04-13, 12:17 PM
If they're looking to marry her for political advantage, you need to be politically advantageous.

Being a general of your own mercenary army or ruler of your own small nation would do it. But being the sort of champion that can solo an army or slay a dragon will also do it. The latter is usually proven by deed.

One approach would be to show up, when you think you're mighty enough, with a big pile of treasure that you've accumulated from your adventuring, and offer it as a dowry-gift to the king for the right to face a challenge for the princess's hand. "This is but a trifle compared to her worth," you say, "but it's all this humble warrior could scrape together." Make sure it's somewhere north of 50,000 gp, and preferably at least 100,000. The more, the better. Then request the king set you quests/tasks to prove your worthiness. He will be able to balance the fact that you can just give away that much wealth for this opportunity and the need to appease the nobility with his own sympathy for your suit and set you something suitably impressive that he believes within your capabilities.

Being the kind of heroic champion who can be a "breadwinner" on a scale that makes a kingdom take notice is politically advantageous. Rewarding a dwarven warrior who could, theoretically, be snapped up by a better offer from another kingdom because of how valuable he is with the hand of the princess to bind him more firmly to the clan and kingdom is a valid political chip to play the princess on. "Half my kingdom and my daughter's hand" is a traditional hero's reward for reasons beyond fantasy; you want somebody mighty enough to do this kind of deed to be the one protecting your daughter and your kingdom.

So focus on gathering wealth, for now. Particularly through great deeds of might, but don't overlook opportunities in commerce and trade. If you CAN build a mercenary company of great renown, that will only add to your benefit; at that point, you could buy a fiefdom for your men and then use that title as your "in."

Pauly
2020-04-13, 06:04 PM
One literary device often used to push a commoner into royalty is The prophesy. Most notably King Arthur, but there are a legion of others.
Some variations you can use
“[nominated dragon] can only be killed by the true heir of [ancient fallen kingdom]”
“The true [venerated dwarf title] will return to [ancient dwarven fortress that is now a boss lair of monsters] and take up [famous weapon/armor]”

Another literary device to achieve the purpose is being a demi-god, although this is more common in myths than stories. Proving demi-godhood usually involves a long quest, the final barrier of which can only be overcome by someone with a God’s blood. It doesn’t have to be a generally useful ability, maybe like the Guardians of the Galaxy where Starlord can handle an infinity stone without getting turned into dust.

In either case a small cosmetic oddity such as mysterious birthmarks or odd/mismatched eye colors can be used to let the prophet/priest/keeper of knowledge to give the quest to the individual.

Edit to add: If there is some maguffin that acts as proof the PC is “the one” you need to put some property on it that prevents an evil party member swiping it for the lols or the loot value.

wilphe
2020-04-13, 06:34 PM
Well there's also Morganatic_marriage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morganatic_marriage) where the whole point is the difference in status.

This explicitly would not make you a Prince and maybe disinherit your children, but it gets around the "You need to be a noble" barrier

So go find a precedent in the archives.


All you have to deal with then is the opportunity cost of her not marrying someone else

You can partially deal with this by getting the King and Queen to have more children (you have 50 years right?), how you approach that is a matter for how far your group is ready to go down that particular rabbit hole. Perhaps go on an epic quest for the dwarven equivalent of Dr Ruth; or the bardic equivalent of Barry White.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUbBs1zGnJo

If nothing else "play love guru for the King" is the sort of out of the box thinking your table will not expect and might be talked about for years

Brother Oni
2020-04-14, 04:59 AM
One approach would be to show up, when you think you're mighty enough, with a big pile of treasure that you've accumulated from your adventuring, and offer it as a dowry-gift to the king for the right to face a challenge for the princess's hand. "This is but a trifle compared to her worth," you say, "but it's all this humble warrior could scrape together." Make sure it's somewhere north of 50,000 gp, and preferably at least 100,000. The more, the better. Then request the king set you quests/tasks to prove your worthiness. He will be able to balance the fact that you can just give away that much wealth for this opportunity and the need to appease the nobility with his own sympathy for your suit and set you something suitably impressive that he believes within your capabilities.

Minor nitpick; when the groom pays the bride's family for the 'privilege' of marrying their daughter, it's known as a 'Bride price (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_price)'.

Other than that, I fully agree with your proposal; as wilphe said, the groom will be marrying into the family rather than the other way round (her social standing is higher than the OP's), so the King has a variety of options for them and any children from their union (title-less so they can't interfe with the succession, or limited titles as potential spare heirs/political pawns) for his long term political plans (and we know dwarves like long term planning).

For the sake of appearances, the OP will probably gain something similar to the title 'Prince Consort', with the potential of gaining a noble title in his own right depending on his deeds in service to the kingdom.

Lvl 2 Expert
2020-04-14, 04:34 PM
I'd start impersonating a nobleman.

You're an adventurer. If you survive, at some point you will be swimming in wealth and fame. But many adventurers will at that point be even more of an outsider than when they started, just a really wealthy and famous one. Ones you have a bit of spare money, buy a nice suit, a horse, some ground. Socialize with merchant and minor nobles, get invited to parties, build a reputation for being a gentleman as well as a badass. Work with the military maybe, lead a few special opps missions. Show your face.

The king is not looking to wed his daughter to Batman, but he'd consider Bruce Wayne. If Bruce Wayne is also Batman that's a bonus. But you need to be Bruce Wayne. Be someone a king would consider one of his own kind.

And whatever you do, stay in touch with the princess. Be the best lovebird you can be. Don't let it feel like you're just after status and money, you like her for her. If she doesn't get that impression you're toast either way.

paddyfool
2020-04-14, 10:00 PM
I am mad at ALL OF YOU for me being the first person to mention it.

To be fair, that's far from the only classic story about a commoner winning the hand of a princess. See the Fairy Tales and Mythology section of this article, for instance: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StandardHeroReward

LibraryOgre
2020-04-15, 10:58 AM
To be fair, that's far from the only classic story about a commoner winning the hand of a princess. See the Fairy Tales and Mythology section of this article, for instance: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StandardHeroReward

But how many of those involve Robin Williams singing?

Segev
2020-04-15, 01:32 PM
But how many of those involve Robin Williams singing?

To be fair, the mythic focus I have on it is such that this story makes me think faux medieval/european style princesses, first, so even when you opened it with "first, get a friend," I still didn't know what you were referencing 'til I clicked through.

And it's my favorite Disney movie.

LordCdrMilitant
2020-04-15, 03:30 PM
Hey all.
My dwarf fighter, lateborn youngest son of a commoner family, of a fairly midrank clan, seeks to wed his childhood sweetheart...who just happens to be the daughter of the High King of the Dwarves. When he sought to approach the king, the crown prince took him aside and in no uncertain terms told him he wasn't worthy, and that She was Duty-bound to marry to the advantage of the kingdom. The prince also said that if one were to raise their station, the king might consider their suit... So he promptly trotted off in search of adventure.

What I am seeking here is ideas for ways my common-born fighter could achieve the fame, wealth, and titles that would allow him to gain the notice and respect of a king.

My initial thoughts are:
• Acquire or craft a Named weapon (ie a magical weapon)
• Gather a company of fighting dwarves to his Banner (leadership feat + ?)
• Slay a mighty beast (dragonslayer is a pretty respectable title)

Any ideas or examples would be appreciated.

I would say it depends on your setting and the tone of your game more than anything else.

On one hand, if your world is bring and shining and heroic, it could be as simple as "win a grand tournament" or some other mechanism of adventure to prove yourself to the king as worthy of his daughter's hand.

On the other hand, in a different world, she's too valuable an asset to marry off to a commoner, and even if as an adventurer you were successful enough to be awarded a title and granted a fief, you'd still just be at best a minor clan and there's no way the king would marry his daughter off to such a young or minor house.

And anything in between could go.

Segev
2020-04-15, 03:45 PM
I would say it depends on your setting and the tone of your game more than anything else.

On one hand, if your world is bring and shining and heroic, it could be as simple as "win a grand tournament" or some other mechanism of adventure to prove yourself to the king as worthy of his daughter's hand.

On the other hand, in a different world, she's too valuable an asset to marry off to a commoner, and even if as an adventurer you were successful enough to be awarded a title and granted a fief, you'd still just be at best a minor clan and there's no way the king would marry his daughter off to such a young or minor house.

And anything in between could go.

Well, if it's a realpolitik issue, as in the "worst case" example above, all he has to do is become a warlord of sufficient power. The reason for the Standard Hero Reward is very pragmatic: "a dragon" represents a kingdom-level threat, something that the king's entire army cannot deal with. If this one guy took out that dragon, he is able to take on threats the king's entire army cannot. Maybe it was through guile and not sheer might, but do you want to risk that guile turning against your army and routing it, somehow? Do you want him to run off and hero somewhere else, and settle down there, and answer that place's call to battle should war break out between you?

No, you want that asset staying right here, loyal to you. Marrying your daughter (who isn't even the heir) to him to cement that alliance is just as important as marrying her off to a duke's son to keep him and his lands loyal. Better, really, because there's less chance the hero will decide that he can talk your daughter into forgiving him for pulling away, what with all the wealth he personally has to keep her occupied. The hero enjoys luxury on a budget you give him, as his father-in-law and as he's a member of the royal household. Keeping him close and dependent. Or, if not dependent (he HAS proven he could break your kingdom in half single-handedly, if he wanted to), then at least content because he has no conflicting obligations (like NOT paying his tithes to the Crown, the way a Duke might).

LordCdrMilitant
2020-04-15, 07:13 PM
Well, if it's a realpolitik issue, as in the "worst case" example above, all he has to do is become a warlord of sufficient power. The reason for the Standard Hero Reward is very pragmatic: "a dragon" represents a kingdom-level threat, something that the king's entire army cannot deal with. If this one guy took out that dragon, he is able to take on threats the king's entire army cannot. Maybe it was through guile and not sheer might, but do you want to risk that guile turning against your army and routing it, somehow? Do you want him to run off and hero somewhere else, and settle down there, and answer that place's call to battle should war break out between you?

No, you want that asset staying right here, loyal to you. Marrying your daughter (who isn't even the heir) to him to cement that alliance is just as important as marrying her off to a duke's son to keep him and his lands loyal. Better, really, because there's less chance the hero will decide that he can talk your daughter into forgiving him for pulling away, what with all the wealth he personally has to keep her occupied. The hero enjoys luxury on a budget you give him, as his father-in-law and as he's a member of the royal household. Keeping him close and dependent. Or, if not dependent (he HAS proven he could break your kingdom in half single-handedly, if he wanted to), then at least content because he has no conflicting obligations (like NOT paying his tithes to the Crown, the way a Duke might).

That still depends on the world. I wouldn't say a character has proven to be able to break your kingdom in half in any game I run, unless it's a quest objective to do so. Odds are, they can't. Even in pathfinder, a large enough army will still beat a character, characters, or dragon, and that's before assuming that the kingdom is remotely competent.

A CR14 Adult Red Dragon is a CR6 force in mass combat, roughly equal to about a thousand soldiers. This is easily within the realm of muster for the king or a lord.



Anyway, though, the strength of the hero doesn't really matter for the sliding scale here.
On one hand, fulfilling a quest about the magic of true love always wins over adult's for-profit matchmaking and is more honorable, good, and happy than an arraigned and unhappy marraige might be what it takes to win the princess's hand.

In the middle, maybe gaining a title and impressing the king is what it takes. Go the Mount and Blade route, make some money, become a hero, pledge your fealty to the king, get a fief, and maybe pay the king a lot of money for his daughter's hand and a political alliance.

At the other end of the scale, the only way you're going to win her hand is to win her heart, then blast your way through the castle, escape the king's army, and seek asylum in a foreign rival and equal-or-greater-strength power.


So what quest would win the princess's hand in marriage would thus vary based on the tone of the game. That none of them have any real bearing on the strong vs. weak heroes aspect of the game, just really based on the tone set by the GM. Any of these examples could come to pass equally well if the player is a magically chosen god among men or if they're an otherwise normal person who answered the call to adventure.

aglondier
2020-04-23, 07:43 AM
If you look at irl situations where a commoner wed the heir.
Most common
- being a successful general with your own powerbase.

Less common in rigid hierarchies but reasonably common in more flexible hierarchies.
- being a famous actor or otherwise fantastically charismatic. Being very good in bed helps, but more so for females than males.

Known to happen if the kingdom has run put of money
- being stupendously wealthy. Getting adopted by a family with sufficient gravitas helps.

Seems to be more mythos than real history.
- being a lost scion of a royal line or an illegitimate heir from the wrong side of the sheets. Possibly used as a cover story to create a semi-plausible post hoc justification.

Also (but I don’t think this is what the OP is looking for).
- kingdom descends into chaos as the strongest person left standing declares themself to be the king.

Planning to use the pathfinder downtime rules to build a mercenary army.
While he does have a high charisma (14) for a dwarf, I'm not taking any bard levels.
Definitely not a hidden or lost scion of nobility. And correct, not wanting to be king.


True, but we are NOT looking at wedding the heir. It is about wedding a sibbling of the heir. Someone usually married off to somewhere else for both an alliance and to provide a proper place to live.

So you need :

- Your own stronghold/country/estate/wealth to support a livestyle fitting for a princess.
- Influence or power that can be called upon in times of need.

Should both be feasable during an adventuring career.

Stronghold, wealth, and powerbase. Hmmm...


It comes down to the King. What does he want? What does he need? What does he hope to gain from the marriage of his daughter?

Factors to consider: His daughter and how she feels (even in a "wed for the good of the realm" situation, he's has emotions and love), the other nobles and how they'll judge him, his standing in the community, whatever societal norms exist.

Those are all the things to overcome.

I'm presuming that the daughter is into it. So in that case it would appear that the major issues are:

1) the lack of utility from a political alliance
This is the hardest to fix, I think. Unless the adventurer somehow becomes a minor lord in his own right, it's gonna be tough to argue for the union from a political standpoint. The best he can do is likely provide some amount of material benefit in various ways that he can bring to the table.

2) the impression of the nobles of the king
The nobles are going to expect certain things of the king. What are they? How can the adventurer provide these things, if he even can? Prestige, knowing that someone with a noble demeanor will be in court, assistance to the realm, etc.

3) the societal expectations
Likely the easiest thing to resolve, honestly. All Mr. Suitor has to do is save the kingdom from some dwarfy threat and he becomes a mighty hero in their eyes, and worthy of the hand of the Princess. Some smart marketing can help with this - "Throw a coin to your dwarfer, oh Miiine of Plenty, of Miiine of Plenty, whoa-oh-oh"

Yes, the princess and my character are in love. It is mutual.
So, 1) have to bring something to the table.
2) improve standing in dwarven society
And 3) be heroic?


If they're looking to marry her for political advantage, you need to be politically advantageous.

Being a general of your own mercenary army or ruler of your own small nation would do it. But being the sort of champion that can solo an army or slay a dragon will also do it. The latter is usually proven by deed.

One approach would be to show up, when you think you're mighty enough, with a big pile of treasure that you've accumulated from your adventuring, and offer it as a dowry-gift to the king for the right to face a challenge for the princess's hand. "This is but a trifle compared to her worth," you say, "but it's all this humble warrior could scrape together." Make sure it's somewhere north of 50,000 gp, and preferably at least 100,000. The more, the better. Then request the king set you quests/tasks to prove your worthiness. He will be able to balance the fact that you can just give away that much wealth for this opportunity and the need to appease the nobility with his own sympathy for your suit and set you something suitably impressive that he believes within your capabilities.

Being the kind of heroic champion who can be a "breadwinner" on a scale that makes a kingdom take notice is politically advantageous. Rewarding a dwarven warrior who could, theoretically, be snapped up by a better offer from another kingdom because of how valuable he is with the hand of the princess to bind him more firmly to the clan and kingdom is a valid political chip to play the princess on. "Half my kingdom and my daughter's hand" is a traditional hero's reward for reasons beyond fantasy; you want somebody mighty enough to do this kind of deed to be the one protecting your daughter and your kingdom.

So focus on gathering wealth, for now. Particularly through great deeds of might, but don't overlook opportunities in commerce and trade. If you CAN build a mercenary company of great renown, that will only add to your benefit; at that point, you could buy a fiefdom for your men and then use that title as your "in."

Not sure if there are any dragons to slay in the Curse of the Crimson Throne adventure path, and not sure if i want to provoke the gm by going off script looking for one 😁. Interesting idea on the challenge, unworkable though. The king declared her time and circumstances of marriage to prevent wealthy and connected nobles from doing just that. It bought my character 50 years to work on it.
So, yes, build wealth and followers.


Well there's also Morganatic_marriage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morganatic_marriage) where the whole point is the difference in status.

This explicitly would not make you a Prince and maybe disinherit your children, but it gets around the "You need to be a noble" barrier

So go find a precedent in the archives.

All you have to deal with then is the opportunity cost of her not marrying someone else

You can partially deal with this by getting the King and Queen to have more children (you have 50 years right?), how you approach that is a matter for how far your group is ready to go down that particular rabbit hole. Perhaps go on an epic quest for the dwarven equivalent of Dr Ruth; or the bardic equivalent of Barry White. (snip)

If nothing else "play love guru for the King" is the sort of out of the box thinking your table will not expect and might be talked about for years

The King and Queen are past childbearing. Not sure flooding the kingdom with royal brats so that they don't mind handing one off to a random commoner (ie me) is the answer I'm looking for.


Minor nitpick; when the groom pays the bride's family for the 'privilege' of marrying their daughter, it's known as a Bride price.

Other than that, I fully agree with your proposal; as wilphe said, the groom will be marrying into the family rather than the other way round (her social standing is higher than the OP's), so the King has a variety of options for them and any children from their union (title-less so they can't interfe with the succession, or limited titles as potential spare heirs/political pawns) for his long term political plans (and we know dwarves like long term planning).

For the sake of appearances, the OP will probably gain something similar to the title 'Prince Consort', with the potential of gaining a noble title in his own right depending on his deeds in service to the kingdom.

Hmmm...


I'd start impersonating a nobleman.

You're an adventurer. If you survive, at some point you will be swimming in wealth and fame. But many adventurers will at that point be even more of an outsider than when they started, just a really wealthy and famous one. Ones you have a bit of spare money, buy a nice suit, a horse, some ground. Socialize with merchant and minor nobles, get invited to parties, build a reputation for being a gentleman as well as a badass. Work with the military maybe, lead a few special opps missions. Show your face.

The king is not looking to wed his daughter to Batman, but he'd consider Bruce Wayne. If Bruce Wayne is also Batman that's a bonus. But you need to be Bruce Wayne. Be someone a king would consider one of his own kind.

And whatever you do, stay in touch with the princess. Be the best lovebird you can be. Don't let it feel like you're just after status and money, you like her for her. If she doesn't get that impression you're toast either way.

Good point, I've got the charisma, I should probably be using it. Will have to work on the connections more. And thanks for the reminder to keep in contact with Her.

aglondier
2020-04-23, 08:06 AM
So, to summarise...
Durigal Thundercask, commoner son of a brewing clan, child of a cooper and a blacksmith, needs to do the following to win the hand of his love...

• Build an army of loyal dwarves, and use them successfully.
• Acquire a domain (or demesne) from which to base both military assets and adventuring from.
• Gather wealth, and/or build a financial empire.
• Dress the part.
• Make social and political connections in both dwarven society and the surrounding race's kingdoms.
• Try to gain a Title that is universally relevant (eg dragonslayer).
• Gain a title or titles that are culturally significant to dwarves (eg mastersmith).
• Find or forge a Named weapon to wield in battle.
• Keep in touch with the princess, sending gifts and/or visiting when the opportunity arises.

Did I miss anything?

Lvl 2 Expert
2020-04-23, 08:25 AM
Did I miss anything?

This is all too much work, so instead you sneak out to under her window one evening, hold a great serenade and convince her to run away with you. You flee across half the continent, retire to a nice little farm somewhere and live happily for the five or so years it takes the king's men to find you. :smallbiggrin:

Jay R
2020-04-23, 08:36 AM
It's not really your problem.

The answer is to save the dwarf kingdom from some horrible catastrophe. And the DM is in charge of catastrophes, not you.

So start getting experience, and working up in levels. Eventually, some level-appropriate catastrophe will appear.

I'm serious. The DM probably already know what invasion, demon, dragon, or necromancer is going to threaten the kingdom in 45 years. You just have to be ready.

When the DM provides a plot-hook (like "raise your station, and prove yourself worthy"), you can assume that there is a plot connected to it.

aglondier
2020-04-23, 09:29 AM
This is all too much work, so instead you sneak out to under her window one evening, hold a great serenade and convince her to run away with you. You flee across half the continent, retire to a nice little farm somewhere and live happily for the five or so years it takes the king's men to find you. :smallbiggrin:

Sounds like something our gnome or goblin party members would do. As a dwarf, nothing so hasty needs to be considered.


It's not really your problem.

The answer is to save the dwarf kingdom from some horrible catastrophe. And the DM is in charge of catastrophes, not you.

So start getting experience, and working up in levels. Eventually, some level-appropriate catastrophe will appear.

I'm serious. The DM probably already know what invasion, demon, dragon, or necromancer is going to threaten the kingdom in 45 years. You just have to be ready.

When the DM provides a plot-hook (like "raise your station, and prove yourself worthy"), you can assume that there is a plot connected to it.

Ah, no, this is purely player driven content. Character backstory and motivation. I strongly doubt the game will cover even a portion of the 50 year time frame...particularly considering the goblin party members 20 year projected lifespan...

kyoryu
2020-04-23, 09:37 AM
Yes, the princess and my character are in love. It is mutual.
So, 1) have to bring something to the table.
2) improve standing in dwarven society
And 3) be heroic?

Well that's up to the GM, right? It's their world. Those are concerns that the King might have - which one of those motivates them sufficiently to approve the wedding is going to be dependent on that particular character.

So as a GM, I'd look at the situation and figure out what the King prioritizes, and what he doesn't. And I'd also look at where there's juicy juicy conflict fodder. And having a situation where you're the champion of the people but hardliner jackasses in the nobility that are against it? Oh, man, that sounds delicious. Or you could even go the other way, both would be fun.

As a player, I'd try to figure out which of those things matters the most to the king. If he's generally amenable to the marriage, and you can arrange a talk with him (or get princessy-dear to do it for you), try to get the "I'd approve this, but..." statement out of him. And then fix the "but". Again, what the king wants is really dependent on that particular PC and the particular dwarven society in the game, so there's no real universal answer.

Of course, you could also hit the problem with an anvil and hit all three of those points. "Yes, sir King. Here I bring you treasure and artifacts to personally help you, along with an alliance with the dwarves to the south. I also have, through my own actions, raised my status in dwarven society to the title of Great Lord. And, my actions have caused me to be beloved by the people." I mean, in that case he can hardly do anything but agree since he's already amenable and his little princess-poo is already in love with you.


Ah, no, this is purely player driven content. Character backstory and motivation. I strongly doubt the game will cover even a portion of the 50 year time frame...particularly considering the goblin party members 20 year projected lifespan...

Ah, revision.... if you're in charge of how this all plays out (on both sides of the fence, as it were), then figure out which of those three things you think the king values the most, and let that guide you. And let the GM know. If there's any player-driven stuff in your game at all, you're then prepping delicious complications for him. You could be at the heart of a whole dwarven uprising! Unless he's planning on running His Story, that's the kind of thing that should put a tear of joy in any GM's eye.


So, to summarise...
Durigal Thundercask, commoner son of a brewing clan, child of a cooper and a blacksmith, needs to do the following to win the hand of his love...

...

Did I miss anything?

Honestly? Yes. You missed the most important thing. Really, the only thing that matters.

You need to convince the king.

That's it. Now, all of those things will probably be sufficient to convince the king, but they may not all be necessary! If you're in charge of writing this, see it from the perspective of the king, and then figure out what he wants. It's not an objective list. It's subjective, based on the needs and values of the king.

Segev
2020-04-23, 10:23 AM
So, to summarise...
Durigal Thundercask, commoner son of a brewing clan, child of a cooper and a blacksmith, needs to do the following to win the hand of his love...

• Build an army of loyal dwarves, and use them successfully.
• Acquire a domain (or demesne) from which to base both military assets and adventuring from.
• Gather wealth, and/or build a financial empire.
• Dress the part.
• Make social and political connections in both dwarven society and the surrounding race's kingdoms.
• Try to gain a Title that is universally relevant (eg dragonslayer).
• Gain a title or titles that are culturally significant to dwarves (eg mastersmith).
• Find or forge a Named weapon to wield in battle.
• Keep in touch with the princess, sending gifts and/or visiting when the opportunity arises.

Did I miss anything?



Honestly? Yes. You missed the most important thing. Really, the only thing that matters.

You need to convince the king.

That's it. Now, all of those things will probably be sufficient to convince the king, but they may not all be necessary! If you're in charge of writing this, see it from the perspective of the king, and then figure out what he wants. It's not an objective list. It's subjective, based on the needs and values of the king.
From what he's said, I think the king is already okay with it, and is quietly rooting for him to pull off something to let him give official approval. Sounds like the king wants his daughter to be happy, and doesn't have a PERSONAL (just a political) problem with her marrying her childhood sweetheart. If said sweetheart were no longer a political problem for her to marry, I get the impression the king'd be on board.

I don't know that all those bullet points are necessary, but together they certainly should be sufficient. Curse of the Crimson Throne sounds like you're going to be dealing with succession and/or royalty in at least some kingdom, so that will give you opportunity to make those foreign political connections and a name for yourself. If it has any sort of international implications, you can use that to gather your first cadre of dwarven warriors and lead them to deal with some problems.

Consider how old-school D&D did it, with hirelings and henchmen making a practical warband: look for opportunities to have the party "sublet" adventuring work that is primarily brute force related. If there is a point where armies are clashing, or where guards say, "You handle the adventuring while we hold off the enemy" or any variant thereon, you want to have some dwarven warriors to volunteer to help those guards or armies. Or even to just take on their role and let them spread themselves less thinly.

I know nothing about Curse of the Crimson Throne, unless it's one I've heard about tangentially from a friend who played in something in Cheliax which might've been it. You might have opportunity to play both sides in a political sense, if it IS the one that I heard about: be ready to accept some realpolitik and offer your political support with your dwarven followers to either side of the conflict...but make your bones about being LAWFUL good (both are important, but...dwarves will value the LAWFUL part more)...unless you're some other alignment. Anyway, you shouldn't have to sacrifice your principles, but you want to make anybody you're working with for political gain feel like they need to put on a good show to keep you on-side, and be ready to turn on them when they "disappoint" you. (All of this is assuming you start off working with somebody the narrative makes clear is a bad guy but which has good PR.)

On the other hand, if you start off drawing supporters for a fight for a just cause and believe it'll stay on that side, even better. Exercise your charisma for diplomacy.

The real key being: watch for opportunities for large numbers to work together to make a difference, and work to be the dwarf gathering those numbers. Be the inspirational hero bringing order and justice to the land.

kyoryu
2020-04-23, 10:48 AM
From what he's said, I think the king is already okay with it, and is quietly rooting for him to pull off something to let him give official approval. Sounds like the king wants his daughter to be happy, and doesn't have a PERSONAL (just a political) problem with her marrying her childhood sweetheart. If said sweetheart were no longer a political problem for her to marry, I get the impression the king'd be on board.

Indeed. That's where I started with, too, which is why I pointed out the external factors that might be preventing the king from agreeing. Now, which one of those factors is the most important?

Another way of looking at that is "what problems does the king have?" Because we can likely assume based on the description that if the king had nothing to lose, he could just approve the marriage and be done with it. "Political reasons" is really another way of saying "he's facing other threats that would be exacerbated, or at least not helped by this".

For instance, if the issue is he's at war with the Evil Southern Dwarves, than a political marriage resolves that. If he's got ambitious nobles looking to take his throne, then marrying off his daughter to an unknown commoner could provide ammo. If the commoners are super tradition-bound and won't accept a Crown Prince (because that's what he'd be, right?) that was of common stock, and would rise against him, that's another problem.

So I guess I'd look at it like this - given that the king wants this to happen on a personal level, what is the Bad Thing that would happen if he agrees to it?

Then solve the Bad Thing in some way, and you're done.

Hitting all of those bullet points would address all of the factors, in all likelihood. But I think there's more interesting game fodder if you address some of the factors :)

Segev
2020-04-23, 11:57 AM
If the commoners are super tradition-bound and won't accept a Crown Prince (because that's what he'd be, right?) that was of common stock, and would rise against him, that's another problem.

In this case, he expressly isn't going to be the heir, as the princess is the younger daughter, and the crown prince is the king's own oldest child (and son). So that part isn't an issue. Not saying the rest isn't valid, but wanted to point out that factoid for whatever it's worth.

LibraryOgre
2020-04-23, 12:24 PM
In this case, he expressly isn't going to be the heir, as the princess is the younger daughter, and the crown prince is the king's own oldest child (and son). So that part isn't an issue. Not saying the rest isn't valid, but wanted to point out that factoid for whatever it's worth.

Additionally, unless HE were the heir, he would not the Crown Prince. If his wife were the heir, he would, eventually, be the Prince Consort (i.e. "Dude who is married to the sovereign"), because a King is a ruler, a Queen can be a ruler or the wife of a ruler, but the husband of a ruler is a Prince Consort.

Segev
2020-04-23, 01:19 PM
Additionally, unless HE were the heir, he would not the Crown Prince. If his wife were the heir, he would, eventually, be the Prince Consort (i.e. "Dude who is married to the sovereign"), because a King is a ruler, a Queen can be a ruler or the wife of a ruler, but the husband of a ruler is a Prince Consort.

Depends on the specific kingdom; I know Britain runs it that way, but I've seen at least one fantasy kingdom where the King was just the husband of the ruling Queen, and until the last few years, I would've assumed that was the way titles worked in any queendom.

Not saying you're inherently wrong, but I could certainly see the dwarven clanhold having the husband of the ruling queen be titled "king."

But yes, he's not the crown prince because he's not the heir.

kyoryu
2020-04-23, 03:09 PM
All fair points, but I think the majority of my post still stands.

Jay R
2020-04-23, 05:30 PM
On the political side, part of the question is the noble or neighboring ruler who is likely to marry her otherwise.

Your dwarf fighter needs to make himself worthy (which is often a euphemism for politically valuable), but the other potential suitor will quite likely try to see that you are not acceptable as a mate.

[And you can try to do the same to him, of course.]

Pauly
2020-04-23, 06:40 PM
So, to summarise...
Durigal Thundercask, commoner son of a brewing clan, child of a cooper and a blacksmith, needs to do the following to win the hand of his love...

• Build an army of loyal dwarves, and use them successfully.
• Acquire a domain (or demesne) from which to base both military assets and adventuring from.
• Gather wealth, and/or build a financial empire.
• Dress the part.
• Make social and political connections in both dwarven society and the surrounding race's kingdoms.
• Try to gain a Title that is universally relevant (eg dragonslayer).
• Gain a title or titles that are culturally significant to dwarves (eg mastersmith).
• Find or forge a Named weapon to wield in battle.
• Keep in touch with the princess, sending gifts and/or visiting when the opportunity arises.

Did I miss anything?

You need to acquire the majority of the list, not necessarily all of the list.

One important things is that his power needs to be independent and portable. He can’t rely on someone else for protection, because then why would the king marry the daughter to him instead of the real power? His power needs to be portable because the threat of him taking his power to a different place is the entire rationale for the marriage.

A good way to make his power portable is to have his domain/demesne be an island. Since he brings his forces to bear by ship he has much greater freedom to choose when/where they are deployed. Also this opens the possibility for other dwarven kings to woo your character with their daughters.

Some minor points.
- You may not need an entire army. A smaller force of elite warriors, for example Achilles’ Myrmidons or Swiss mercenaries in the 1500s, can do the job. Basically if he turns up on the battlefield with his retinue he tips the battle significantly in his favor.
- A dwarven relevant title that reflects a common heritage/working with his hands is probably going to work against him. So ‘mastersmith’ whilst respected would be mutually exclusive with Royalty. Whereas a title such as ‘keeper of the runes’ or ‘defender of the faith’ or ‘head of the sacred order’ is compatible with royalty.

aglondier
2020-04-24, 09:13 PM
You need to acquire the majority of the list, not necessarily all of the list.

One important things is that his power needs to be independent and portable. He can’t rely on someone else for protection, because then why would the king marry the daughter to him instead of the real power? His power needs to be portable because the threat of him taking his power to a different place is the entire rationale for the marriage.

A good way to make his power portable is to have his domain/demesne be an island. Since he brings his forces to bear by ship he has much greater freedom to choose when/where they are deployed. Also this opens the possibility for other dwarven kings to woo your character with their daughters.

Some minor points.
- You may not need an entire army. A smaller force of elite warriors, for example Achilles’ Myrmidons or Swiss mercenaries in the 1500s, can do the job. Basically if he turns up on the battlefield with his retinue he tips the battle significantly in his favor.
- A dwarven relevant title that reflects a common heritage/working with his hands is probably going to work against him. So ‘mastersmith’ whilst respected would be mutually exclusive with Royalty. Whereas a title such as ‘keeper of the runes’ or ‘defender of the faith’ or ‘head of the sacred order’ is compatible with royalty.

Maybe I should look into acquiring a Daern's Instant Fortress or three, so my powerbase is actually portable...
I really like the idea of fielding a band of elites, Achilles and his Myrmidons from the movie Troy is a great example.

dojango
2020-04-26, 09:42 PM
I mean, how 'traditional' is this dwarven society? There's always the traditional 'shotgun' or 'repeating crossbow' marriage where the bride has got to be married very soon in order to avoid embarassment.

aglondier
2020-04-27, 07:59 AM
I mean, how 'traditional' is this dwarven society? There's always the traditional 'shotgun' or 'repeating crossbow' marriage where the bride has got to be married very soon in order to avoid embarassment.

No. Just no. He is perfectly happy to slay dragons, raze cities, and risk his life and sanity...but he is not going to knock up a princess to force the marriage. Besides, the younger prince would kill her for dishonoring the royal house and clan.

Silly Name
2020-04-27, 03:13 PM
I mean, how 'traditional' is this dwarven society? There's always the traditional 'shotgun' or 'repeating crossbow' marriage where the bride has got to be married very soon in order to avoid embarassment.

I feel like a commoner ravishing and impregnating the princess is much more likely to get hanged for a variety of crimes against the royal person. Depending on the cultural mores, the princess would either be forced to have an abortion or give up the baby after birth, probably sent to a very far away place where no one has any idea it's the princess' child and be made to live with farmers or something. The princess herself would either be hurriedly married off to a minor noble who'd be ok with this dishonourable arrangement in exchange for power, or sent to a nunnery.

I mean, that one makes for a good origin story when the child inevitably discovers their royal heritage and the tragedy of the romance between their parents and that they are the last descendent of the royal bloodline, but I don't think this is how OP would want their character to end.

RNightstalker
2020-04-28, 12:07 PM
But how many of those involve Robin Williams singing?

Where is the "I freaking love this response and it made my day" button?!?!


So, to summarise...
Durigal Thundercask, commoner son of a brewing clan, child of a cooper and a blacksmith, needs to do the following to win the hand of his love...

• Build an army of loyal dwarves, and use LEAD them successfully.
• Acquire a domain (or demesne) from which to base both military assets and adventuring from.
• Gather wealth, and/or build a financial empire.
• Dress the part.
• Make social and political connections in both dwarven society and the surrounding race's kingdoms.
• Try to gain a Title that is universally relevant (eg dragonslayer).
• Gain a title or titles that are culturally significant to dwarves (eg mastersmith).
• Find or forge a Named weapon to wield in battle.
• Keep in touch with the princess, sending gifts and/or visiting when the opportunity arises.

Did I miss anything?

For gathering wealth, traditional dwarves love to drink alcohol. Help your merry band make the best. Another thing dwarves love is mithral. Find another vein that will take centuries to mine. Find an adamantium deposit while you're at it. And if you can do it within your own party/clan: you're paying the miners, building the forges, paying the weaponsmiths, and supplying the kingdom, etc. For dressing the part, the finest mithral armor will go further than anything else. I agree with the earlier comments about the Battlesmith, Dwarfen Paragon, and Deepwarden. Races of Stone also has a forge that will let you craft magic arms and armor as if you had the feat. The same 1,000 gp/day limit is assumed, so finding a way to make a better forge to build them faster will help in game time. You could go for something like the forge in Gauntylrgrym that essentially combined magic items into one. Top it off with Axe of the Dwarvish Lords in one hand, a Dwarven thrower in the other, you should be good to go.

Lvl 2 Expert
2020-04-28, 03:05 PM
For gathering wealth, traditional dwarves love to drink alcohol. Help your merry band make the best.

"Master brewer of the royal beerery" must be quite the title among dwarves. Especially if you the player can manage to talk everyone's ears off about it in your character's accent every time they bring it up.

aglondier
2020-04-29, 09:57 PM
"Master brewer of the royal beerery" must be quite the title among dwarves. Especially if you the player can manage to talk everyone's ears off about it in your character's accent every time they bring it up.
While my characters Clan are big on brewing, my character is from the part of the clan involved in barrel making.
I can manage a fair Sean Connery accent, as long as I don't smile, then I lose it 😁.

I found a respectable dwarven title that I'll try porting in. War-Thane. Leader of a regiment of dwarven infantry...which tallys up to about 48x warrior 1, 16x fighter 2, 8x fighter 3, 4x cleric 3, 4x fighter 4, and 2x fighter 5. 82 dwarves total. Expensive, but doable...and then they start earning an income. Found it in an Eberron supplement, the Forge of War. (page 86). I figure I'll start with that and train the lot into elites as I can afford it.

One Step Two
2020-04-29, 11:52 PM
While my characters Clan are big on brewing, my character is from the part of the clan involved in barrel making.
I can manage a fair Sean Connery accent, as long as I don't smile, then I lose it 😁.

I found a respectable dwarven title that I'll try porting in. War-Thane. Leader of a regiment of dwarven infantry...which tallys up to about 48x warrior 1, 16x fighter 2, 8x fighter 3, 4x cleric 3, 4x fighter 4, and 2x fighter 5. 82 dwarves total. Expensive, but doable...and then they start earning an income. Found it in an Eberron supplement, the Forge of War. (page 86). I figure I'll start with that and train the lot into elites as I can afford it.

Are you using 3.5? Because Heroes of Battle has the Extra Followers feat which doubles any followers you get from Leadership. Also, Might Makes Right from Races of Faerun lets you add your strength bonus to your leadership score, but doesn't replace your Charisma, it stacks.

RNightstalker
2020-04-30, 12:05 PM
While my characters Clan are big on brewing, my character is from the part of the clan involved in barrel making.
I can manage a fair Sean Connery accent, as long as I don't smile, then I lose it 😁.

I found a respectable dwarven title that I'll try porting in. War-Thane. Leader of a regiment of dwarven infantry...which tallys up to about 48x warrior 1, 16x fighter 2, 8x fighter 3, 4x cleric 3, 4x fighter 4, and 2x fighter 5. 82 dwarves total. Expensive, but doable...and then they start earning an income. Found it in an Eberron supplement, the Forge of War. (page 86). I figure I'll start with that and train the lot into elites as I can afford it.

The leadership feat will be cheaper I think.

Segev
2020-04-30, 12:22 PM
While my characters Clan are big on brewing, my character is from the part of the clan involved in barrel making.

So your troops will be experts on barreling through the enemy lines!

One Step Two
2020-04-30, 06:57 PM
So your troops will be experts on barreling through the enemy lines!

As Dwarves, I would think they would be better known for their ability to stave off enemy charges.

Segev
2020-05-01, 10:43 AM
As Dwarves, I would think they would be better known for their ability to stave off enemy charges.

Perhaps, though they're not as good at running rings around them as you might hope.

One Step Two
2020-05-01, 05:18 PM
Perhaps, though they're not as good at running rings around them as you might hope.

Yes, but given their leaders experience, they hopefully wont find themselves cooped in.