Grung Rogues

[Klaus Teufel]

Any suggestions about Grung rogue guides? I've looked at a lot of rogue guides on this site, but none address Grung.

I'm using the simple Grung stats from One Grung Above:


Grung Traits
Your grung character has an assortment of inborn abilities, part and parcel of grung nature.

Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity score increases by 2 and your Constitution score increases by 1.
Age. Grungs mature to adulthood in a single year, but have been known to live up to 50 years.

Alignment. Most grungs are lawful, having been raised in a strict caste system. They tend toward evil as well, coming from a culture where social advancement occurs rarely, and most often because another member of your army has died and there is no one else of that caste to fill the vacancy.

Arboreal Alertness. You have proficiency in the Perception skill.

Size. Grungs stand between 2 ½ and 3 ½ feet tall and average about 30 pounds. Your size is Small.

Speed. Your base walking speed is 25 feet, and you have a climbing speed of 25 feet.

Amphibious. You can breathe air and water.

Poison Immunity. You’re immune to poison damage and the poisoned condition.

Poisonous Skin. Any creature that grapples you or otherwise comes into direct contact with your skin must succeed on a DC 12 Constitution saving throw or become poisoned for 1 minute. A poisoned creature no longer in direct contact with you can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.
You can also apply this poison to any piercing weapon as part of an attack with that weapon, though when you hit the poison reacts differently. The target must succeed on a DC 12 Constitution saving throw or take 2d4 poison damage.

Standing Leap. Your long jump is up to 25 feet and your high jump is up to 15 feet, with or without a running start.

Water Dependency. If you fail to immerse yourself in water for at least 1 hour during a day, you suffer one level of exhaustion at the end of that day. You can only recover from this exhaustion through magic or by immersing yourself in water for at least 1 hour.

Languages. You can speak, read, and write Grung.

[nickl_2000]

Grungs have kind of lived in an place that is between homebrew and official causing them to not be considered when it comes to guides most of the time.


The truth is that they would make very good rogues, the stat boost is pretty much perfect for all rogue to begin with. Being able to apply the poisoned condition is even better. However, that DC 12 is going to be quickly overcome as you level up as a character, when it rarely triggers anymore.


Then comes the Water Dependency issue. A rogue has no way to overcome this like a Cleric could with creative uses of spells. That can become a major, major issue. So, talk to the DM on whether the campaign is one that will lend itself to being able to submerge yourself daily and if you can't move onto a different race.

[Klaus Teufel]

You could have a Handy Haversack or Bag of Holding with enough water in it to submerge a Small Frogman, but no so much it overcomes their weight limits. :smallbiggrin:

[nickl_2000]

You could have a Handy Haversack or Bag of Holding with enough water in it to submerge a Small Frogman, but no so much it overcomes their weight limits. :smallbiggrin:

True, depending on a magic item drop to survive is never a good thing though

[stoutstien]

2 levels of artificer can take care of any water needed you may have. Though you have to live that long first.

[Falconcry]

Yeah it is sad you need to multi-class to survive outside the swamp. My Way of Mercy Monk (more poison) took a level of druid for mold earth/ create water. However that lead me to circle of spores for even more poison. Then I took a third level so I could lesser restoration anyone that needed to cast a touch spell on me.

All that poison puts all my tadpoles in one fishbowl but powerful against the right foes. So of course my DM puts me in an icy tomb under the tundra full of undead. But I’m still a monk and druid.

[Luccan]

I'd ask the DM if Water Dependency is going to be an issue. If it is, ask if you can have a minor magic item that will keep you alive (something like a sack always full of water that you can get into when needed, but its only full of water for someone fully submerged), because your DM declaring you die a few days into the adventure might as well tell you not to play the thing in the first place.

Secondly, if you want the poison DC to matter, ask if it can be tied to your Con bonus. Con will be a secondary stat for you at most, it's not a lot of damage anyway, and poison is the most commonly resisted damage type, so it shouldn't be an issue.

[Klaus Teufel]

I'd hope to use him in an urban campaign. He can go back to the inn after each encounter, or at least dive into the sewers. :smallbiggrin:
But a level of druid sounds good!

[HappyDaze]

I'd ask the DM if Water Dependency is going to be an issue. If it is, ask if you can have a minor magic item that will keep you alive (something like a sack always full of water that you can get into when needed, but its only full of water for someone fully submerged), because your DM declaring you die a few days into the adventure might as well tell you not to play the thing in the first place.

This strikes me bad. I recall a player asking if he could just have goggles granting darkvision for his new 1st level dragonborn PC since every other PC in the group had darkvision. I told him he had to find/make/buy those himself in game. I feel that if the DM says it's going to matter, why would the DM then take special measures to ensure that it really doesn't matter? If the DM says it is going to matter, then it is up to the player to either select a different character or for the character to try to find a solution in play.

[Luccan]

This strikes me bad. I recall a player asking if he could just have goggles granting darkvision for his new 1st level dragonborn PC since every other PC in the group had darkvision. I told him he had to find/make/buy those himself in game. I feel that if the DM says it's going to matter, why would the DM then take special measures to ensure that it really doesn't matter? If the DM says it is going to matter, then it is up to the player to either select a different character or for the character to try to find a solution in play.

By "will it matter" I mean, will the DM ignore it or not
A first level spell and a cantrip will usually trivialize it anyway. The item is really so you don't have to play a caster to do so. Water Dependency is one of those weaknesses that will come up too often to be anything other than annoying.

[Segev]

Get a donkey and a wagon, pick up proficiency with and a set of cook’s utensils, and claim a cauldron comes with it. Carry water in that. Offer to make soup, and act confused when people are grossed out that that’s where you sleep at night.

If you have a cleric in the party, this can become a minor issue rather than a major worry, too. Just ask him to prepare create water.

Maybe that’s even why you seek out a party.

[Klaus Teufel]

Thank you all for your suggestions. :smallsmile:

[N810]

If you can get the spell "Create or destroy water" it should solve most of your problems.
the Magic Initiate feat can get you this as it's first level spell, if you aren't a caster.

[Segev]

If you can get the spell "Create or destroy water" it should solve most of your problems.
the Magic Initiate feat can get you this as it's first level spell, if you aren't a caster.

You do have to survive a minimum of 3 levels before you can pick it up at 4th, though, and if you multiclass, it'll be even longer.

[N810]

I was referring to the spell level. when I said 1st level.

[Segev]

I was referring to the spell level. when I said 1st level.

I know. I was just pointing out that this only solves the problem from level 4+, at the earliest.

[N810]

yep, Unless your DM is giving out feats at the first level. (not unheard of) :elan:

[MaxWilson]

By "will it matter" I mean, will the DM ignore it or not
A first level spell and a cantrip will usually trivialize it anyway. The item is really so you don't have to play a caster to do so. Water Dependency is one of those weaknesses that will come up too often to be anything other than annoying.

Only in campaigns where human PCs never bathe.

[Dork_Forge]

Only in campaigns where human PCs never bathe.

An average human bathing (which in and of itself probably wouldn't be frequent if the setting is medieval inspired), is hardly comparable for a PC needing to submerse themselves in water for an hour a day, regardless of their location and circumstances.

In reality things like that just seem like a tag on to charity races to try and hinder their regular use or act as a bad point of balancing for a potentially overtuned race.

[Luccan]

An average human bathing (which in and of itself probably wouldn't be frequent if the setting is medieval inspired), is hardly comparable for a PC needing to submerse themselves in water for an hour a day, regardless of their location and circumstances.

In reality things like that just seem like a tag on to charity races to try and hinder their regular use or act as a bad point of balancing for a potentially overtuned race.

Which is weird, because neither Grung nor Locathah are remotely overtuned. I dunno if Tortle was a charity race, but it's the only other standalone I can think of and its only weakness is it can't wear armor. Which almost never matters anyway, so...

Edit: I guess I could see it for Locathah, but it's even harsher than Grung. Grung is definitely still fine without the weakness, though

[micahaphone]

If your DM doesn't care about carrying capacity within reason, you could have a party member carry a few extra water skins and a large pot. Make an RP point out of spending short rests in your pot. Refill the waterskins with fresh water whenever you can. Once you've gotten some treasure, invest in a few scrolls of Create/ Destroy Water, give them to your caster allies in case of emergency.

[Dork_Forge]

Which is weird, because neither Grung nor Locathah are remotely overtuned. I dunno if Tortle was a charity race, but it's the only other standalone I can think of and its only weakness is it can't wear armor. Which almost never matters anyway, so...

Edit: I guess I could see it for Locathah, but it's even harsher than Grung. Grung is definitely still fine without the weakness, though

I don't think it's necessarily that they're overtuned, I think they're less thorough in the balancing of these races because they're charity stand alones and the inclusion of such ridiculous detriments is a just in case the abilities seem too much.

It confuses me though why the Grung are amphibious and no better at swimming than a normal land based race.

[Luccan]

I don't think it's necessarily that they're overtuned, I think they're less thorough in the balancing of these races because they're charity stand alones and the inclusion of such ridiculous detriments is a just in case the abilities seem too much.

It confuses me though why the Grung are amphibious and no better at swimming than a normal land based race.

Someone with more zoological knowledge correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there are several species of amphibian that don't really swim that still spend a good deal of time in water in adulthood because they have to remain suitably moist or die. I really don't know how common that is for any species of poisonous tree frog, though, so I'm not sure if that would be a good enough explanation anyway.

[Segev]

Someone with more zoological knowledge correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there are several species of amphibian that don't really swim that still spend a good deal of time in water in adulthood because they have to remain suitably moist or die. I really don't know how common that is for any species of poisonous tree frog, though, so I'm not sure if that would be a good enough explanation anyway.

At the very least, the grung in Tomb of Annihilation are depicted as having ponds and swamps they wallow in.

It's actually kind-of interesting that they have grungs in ToA, but no Bullywugs, and yet there's froghemoth presence (which is usually associated with bullywugs). A froggy-war thing going on would've been potentially interesting.

[Klaus Teufel]

You do have to survive a minimum of 3 levels before you can pick it up at 4th, though, and if you multiclass, it'll be even longer.If you multiclass as a druid (or cleric) at 2nd level, you could get it then; both druids and clerics can cast it at 1st level.

Would also give access to the Jump spell. Giving you a 75' long or 45' high standing jump(!)

[micahaphone]

Someone with more zoological knowledge correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there are several species of amphibian that don't really swim that still spend a good deal of time in water in adulthood because they have to remain suitably moist or die. I really don't know how common that is for any species of poisonous tree frog, though, so I'm not sure if that would be a good enough explanation anyway.

According to me doing a few seconds of Googling, some tree frogs, including poison dart frogs, the inspiration for Grung, are mediocre swimmers. So them not having a swim speed is somewhat accurate.

https://www.quora.com/Can-tree-frogs-swim-like-pond-frogs-can

No idea if the responder on Quora has credentials, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Segev]

If you multiclass as a druid (or cleric) at 2nd level, you could get it then; both druids and clerics can cast it at 1st level.

Would also give access to the Jump spell. Giving you a 75' long or 45' high standing jump(!)

True, though I believe the complaint was that you couldn't do it without being a spellcasting class. I mean, you could START in druid or cleric, too.

[Chronos]

That's a really poorly designed class. Everything in it other than the water dependence is overpowered, and the water dependence is the sort of trait that inherently can't balance anything: Either you have some way of consistently getting around it, in which case it's no tradeoff at all, or you don't, in which case the character is unplayable.

[Luccan]

That's a really poorly designed class. Everything in it other than the water dependence is overpowered, and the water dependence is the sort of trait that inherently can't balance anything: Either you have some way of consistently getting around it, in which case it's no tradeoff at all, or you don't, in which case the character is unplayable.

How do you figure? Poison immunity is, I think, the closest to overturned, but poison isn't very impressive in 5e

[Segev]

How do you figure? Poison immunity is, I think, the closest to overturned, but poison isn't very impressive in 5e

Poison seems overvalued as a PC resource by the designers, so having a race that lets you apply poison damage and the poisoned condition might seem a bit much.

[Dork_Forge]

Someone with more zoological knowledge correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there are several species of amphibian that don't really swim that still spend a good deal of time in water in adulthood because they have to remain suitably moist or die. I really don't know how common that is for any species of poisonous tree frog, though, so I'm not sure if that would be a good enough explanation anyway.

They're not as good at swimming as pond frogs, but all frogs are adequate swimmers and their young need to be in the water. I don't think a swimming speed would be appropriate, by maybe something like advantage on Athletics checks made for swimming.

[Luccan]

They're not as good at swimming as pond frogs, but all frogs are adequate swimmers and their young need to be in the water. I don't think a swimming speed would be appropriate, by maybe something like advantage on Athletics checks made for swimming.

I wouldn't entirely object, but how good is adequate? They won't swim any worse than other races and the places Grung typically live don't have particularly rough waters. Plus they don't have to worry about drowning, so in the right situations I could already see that being used for advantage on rolls for swimming or to avoid disadvantage.

[Chronos]

An extra 2d4 damage on every attack is VERY powerful, even if it is a low-value type like poison. I mean, that's more than a paladin gets from their 11th level feature, albeit paladins get it in a much better damage type.

[Luccan]

An extra 2d4 damage on every attack is VERY powerful, even if it is a low-value type like poison. I mean, that's more than a paladin gets from their 11th level feature, albeit paladins get it in a much better damage type.

It loses relevance as you level, however. More creatures with resistance or immunity and higher Con scores. And it's fully ignored on a save. Also, is the fact that you and your allies can't touch each other not something of a balancing factor? That limits healing options, at least.

[Chronos]

Yeah, I missed that there was also a save for the weapon poison. A DC 12 isn't very high.

It's still overall a better package of abilities than most races get, though.

[nickl_2000]

Yeah, I missed that there was also a save for the weapon poison. A DC 12 isn't very high.

It's still overall a better package of abilities than most races get, though.

The saves on every attack is one of the reasons I don't like the Grung race. I don't think it is overpowered, or that the DC should be removed. I just think that it is annoying that the DM needs to roll a save on every single flipping attack a Grung makes

[Segev]

The saves on every attack is one of the reasons I don't like the Grung race. I don't think it is overpowered, or that the DC should be removed. I just think that it is annoying that the DM needs to roll a save on every single flipping attack a Grung makes

Might be a situation where reversing it is appropriate: make the Grung player roll a d20+2 against 10+target's Con save bonus.

[Luccan]

Yeah, I missed that there was also a save for the weapon poison. A DC 12 isn't very high.

It's still overall a better package of abilities than most races get, though.

Maybe, I'm kind meh on it. I think I'm gonna have to agree with your earlier point, though. Either the water Dependency will tend toward irrelevance or be overly punishing. If they ever fully release a Grung race, I'm hoping they drop it in favor of other balancing factors (they could limit the amount of times you can use the poison on weapons, for one, on the justification it's a waste of fluids).

[Son of A Lich!]

I think I would be really annoyed really quickly with a grung player character. I can already see a constant stream of reminders that they poisoned their weapons with their skin, and calling for a CON save every attack and attack against them, even if the creature is immune to poison.

It would depend on the player, naturally, as it can be done well - however - it seems really unwieldy with the rest of 5e's design.

maybe something more like goblin's fury of the small? a caustic poison damage they can add to their attacks 1/short rest? and an ability to poison someone touching them as a reaction?

as for the water dependency; I'd probably give them a charm or totem of some kind that allows them to attune to it and invalidate the dependency. By the time they are balancing attunement slots, they or the party should be able to counter the effects easily.

That's my two copper.

[Segev]

I don't see the poison thing being that burdensome. As enemy monsters, the DM would have to ask players for the check every time if they're facing one. Or a group.

If it really is a problem, like I said, just switch the roll around. Have them roll a d20+2 and compare it to "Passive constitution save."

[Chronos]

If you have grung enemies, then it comes up in the encounter where they're fighting grungs, and in those encounters, you don't have to deal with other special abilities that grungs don't get. If you have grung PCs, then it comes up in every encounter, and in addition to whatever it is the enemies do to make things more complicated.

[Luccan]

If you have grung enemies, then it comes up in the encounter where they're fighting grungs, and in those encounters, you don't have to deal with other special abilities that grungs don't get. If you have grung PCs, then it comes up in every encounter, and in addition to whatever it is the enemies do to make things more complicated.

But are you more or less likely to remember if it comes up every encounter? Any Grung making regular use of this is likely to be doing so all the time, rather than occasionally, so unless you need to constantly flip around for monster stats it shouldn't be that hard to roll whenever the player takes the attack action. Mods are static and enemies don't generally get proficiency bonuses, so the math should be relatively quick.

[manyslayer]

It loses relevance as you level, however. More creatures with resistance or immunity and higher Con scores. And it's fully ignored on a save. Also, is the fact that you and your allies can't touch each other not something of a balancing factor? That limits healing options, at least.
Does it actually prevent touching, though, at least for spells? I mean my understanding is flesh to flesh contact is not required for casting otherwise you can never cast a touch spell on the head-to-toe armored paladin without poking a finger in an eye slot on the helmet.

[Theodoxus]

Does it actually prevent touching, though, at least for spells? I mean my understanding is flesh to flesh contact is not required for casting otherwise you can never cast a touch spell on the head-to-toe armored paladin without poking a finger in an eye slot on the helmet.

While true in a simulationist sense, it doesn't work 'in game', else you'd need to know who is wearing gauntlets or other 'poison proof' personal protective equipment, and anyone could simply claim "I never touched the grung's skin, just like, their bandolier or loincloth or something. So, simplest solution to make it more fair is to have any contact be considered 'flesh to flesh'.

[Psyren]

Rather than Rogue, I'd go with a class that relies on multiple attacks, like Ranger or Fighter. A potential+2d4 on every piercing attack screams Crossbow Expert to me, and more attacks means more failed saves. Ranger also helps with the "allies can't touch me" problem by just letting you heal yourself with any spell slots you have left over. It wouldn't be long before you're fishing for 1s though.

[CTurbo]

Nobody likes a thread necro