"Official" statblocks for iconic NPCs?

[danielxcutter]

Apparently Elminister has been confirmed to be a Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric 3/Wizard 27/Archmage 5 in 3.5e? The levels I can get - it's related to his backstory and Forgotten Realms is one of those settings where you have more statblocks for epic characters than statblocks for characters with NPC classes. I still have no idea where that's from, though.

I've also seen instances where other named characters like Mordenkainen have their levels mentioned - I don't have a source for that, either. The closest I have for an "official" statblock for an iconic character is Iggwilv's statblock from Savage Tide. Which is in Dungeon Magazine(specifically, her statblock is in Dungeon #149).

Does anyone know where I can find the statblocks for iconic NPCs? Eberron doesn't count; if you look enough in the sourcebooks you can find a lot of those.

[Thelonius monk]

You're looking for the Epic Level Handbook. The book itself is honestly a mess, but there's a whole chapter on Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk Epic NPCs. Elminster, Manshoon, Mordenkainen, a few others. It's interesting, but if you want to use these characters, you're probably better off making your own.

[danielxcutter]

You're looking for the Epic Level Handbook. The book itself is honestly a mess, but there's a whole chapter on Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk Epic NPCs. Elminster, Manshoon, Mordenkainen, a few others. It's interesting, but if you want to use these characters, you're probably better off making your own.

Wait really, there is? I can live with the statblocks not being optimized; I've heard opinions that WotC intentionally do suboptimal statblocks because not everyone optimizes out the wazoo.

[Asmotherion]

I'm still not sure why all super-mary-sue wizards get a fighter dip though. Maybe it's a pre-rec to ender the DM PC prestige class (it's first level ability says it doesn't show up on the Character sheet)?

[Luccan]

I'm still not sure why all super-mary-sue wizards get a fighter dip though. Maybe it's a pre-rec to ender the DM PC prestige class (it's first level ability says it doesn't show up on the Character sheet)?

Because back in the long ago, having levels in fighter and magic-user was cool. Gishes were cool.

Edit: Cut a sentence

[danielxcutter]

Because back in the long ago, having levels in fighter and magic-user was cool. Gishes were cool.

Edit: Cut a sentence

To be fair, it actually kind of makes sense for Elminister. He didn't start out as a wizard, after all.

I haven't checked out the ELH for that yet, but I have a feeling that if they wanted epic gishes, they should have remembered that Eldritch Knight has been around since the 3.0e DMG came out.

[Asmotherion]

Because back in the long ago, having levels in fighter and magic-user was cool. Gishes were cool.

Edit: Cut a sentence

Gishes are still cool; All I'm saying is you only need a permanent item of Divine Power to the same effect, without sacrificing a caster Level.

[danielxcutter]

Gishes are still cool; All I'm saying is you only need a permanent item of Divine Power to the same effect, without sacrificing a caster Level.

That would fall under the custom magic item rules, which IIRC explicitly tell a DM to use their judgement when allowing them.

Also I have a level 27 NPC Swiftblade(/Abjurant Champion/Fatespinner) who could probably murder a good number of those epic NPCs. Admittingly I gave her PC wealth and a higher stat point allocation (which is included in her actual CR in the case of the former and applies to all PCs and NPCs with class levels in the latter), but if I had to bet on whether either she would win or Iggwilv as presented in Savage Tide, I would inevitably vote for my NPC unless the Witch Queen somehow got the drop on her. And Iggwilv is a Wizard 26/Archmage 4 and arguably even more DM fiat gear!

[Psyren]

To be fair, it actually kind of makes sense for Elminister. He didn't start out as a wizard, after all.

While that's true, the better way to represent his convoluted backstory/build would probably be via retraining, rather than a frankenstein build full of vestigial dilutive levels :smalltongue:

[danielxcutter]

While that's true, the better way to represent his convoluted backstory/build would probably be via retraining, rather than a frankenstein build full of vestigial dilutive levels :smalltongue:

Well, retraining was officially introduced in the 3.5e PHB2, right? Plus, at his level I don't think it actually does matter a lot, aside from his caster level - heck, in some ways it gives him abilities that a skilled optimizer could utilize quite well with minor tweaks. I could probably change a lot of his levels to Arcane Trickster and Mystic Theurge, and the only thing I think he'd have to give up is a few bonus feats!

[Asmotherion]

That would fall under the custom magic item rules, which IIRC explicitly tell a DM to use their judgement when allowing them.

Also I have a level 27 NPC Swiftblade(/Abjurant Champion/Fatespinner) who could probably murder a good number of those epic NPCs. Admittingly I gave her PC wealth and a higher stat point allocation (which is included in her actual CR in the case of the former and applies to all PCs and NPCs with class levels in the latter), but if I had to bet on whether either she would win or Iggwilv as presented in Savage Tide, I would inevitably vote for my NPC unless the Witch Queen somehow got the drop on her. And Iggwilv is a Wizard 26/Archmage 4 and arguably even more DM fiat gear!

Eh, custom magic items are pretty standard, but granted.

You can replicate it with Limited Wish on Core; You can also get access of the War domain to cast it through varius ways, or even get it in scroll form.

In any case, my point is, you don't need to dip Fighter to Gish effectivelly.

[danielxcutter]

Eh, custom magic items are pretty standard, but granted.

You can replicate it with Limited Wish on Core; You can also get access of the War domain to cast it through varius ways, or even get it in scroll form.

In any case, my point is, you don't need to dip Fighter to Gish effectivelly.

It helps. Not everyone wants to use divine magic(replicated or otherwise); and if you're mostly a caster then melee is the last thing you want to happen. Part of the benefit of gish PrCs is not only do they advance both BAB and spellcasting and sometimes support that with class features, but the simple fact that they have better HD than the d4 of most arcanists.

Remember the aforementioned Swiftblade NPC of mine? I did the math, and her hit points actually aren't that high for someone who invests in melee combat; only marginally higher than that of a Rogue (or Bard) with the same Constitution. Swiftblade only has d6s and taking Fatespinner didn't really help either - the hit points from Abjurant Champion and Fighter only went so far.

[Psyren]

Well, retraining was officially introduced in the 3.5e PHB2, right? Plus, at his level I don't think it actually does matter a lot, aside from his caster level - heck, in some ways it gives him abilities that a skilled optimizer could utilize quite well with minor tweaks. I could probably change a lot of his levels to Arcane Trickster and Mystic Theurge, and the only thing I think he'd have to give up is a few bonus feats!

You're right that it's not a big deal for him specifically, I'm more speaking in general; having a bunch of odd jobs before settling on your true calling shouldn't have the potential to weaken your build, is all I'm saying.

[danielxcutter]

You're right that it's not a big deal for him specifically, I'm more speaking in general; having a bunch of odd jobs before settling on your true calling shouldn't have the potential to weaken your build, is all I'm saying.

Ah, that does make sense, yes. That's kind of the biggest flaw in D&D multiclassing, I guess.

[Asmotherion]

It helps. Not everyone wants to use divine magic(replicated or otherwise); and if you're mostly a caster then melee is the last thing you want to happen. Part of the benefit of gish PrCs is not only do they advance both BAB and spellcasting and sometimes support that with class features, but the simple fact that they have better HD than the d4 of most arcanists.

Remember the aforementioned Swiftblade NPC of mine? I did the math, and her hit points actually aren't that high for someone who invests in melee combat; only marginally higher than that of a Rogue (or Bard) with the same Constitution. Swiftblade only has d6s and taking Fatespinner didn't really help either - the hit points from Abjurant Champion and Fighter only went so far.

Then again, we're talking of the class that has Ghoul Touch and Shivering Touch as touch spells, so melee is not that bad if you prepare for it. Getting a bunsh of temporary HP, miss chance and ressistances is better than a +1 to bab. If anything, your best bet is to minimise the metamagic tax on Quicken Spell and persistant spell, get some touch spells as SLAs (to avoid AoAs) and have a good default of persistant buffstacks to function as your Armor. So, mostly the same as any other Wizard.

Or if you want a true Gish, go Swordsage or some other Book of 9 swords class.


You're right that it's not a big deal for him specifically, I'm more speaking in general; having a bunch of odd jobs before settling on your true calling shouldn't have the potential to weaken your build, is all I'm saying.

Depends; If I was a Taxi Driver for a year, it wouldn't count as work experiance when I'd start working as an engineer, and this would both affect my ability to get hired, and a lack of experiance would also delay a potential promotion compared to someone who's on the job 2-3 years.

However if I was to choose a similar job, for example Bus Driver, my job experiance would cummulate, and help me get hired over one that lacks it.

[wilphe]

Wait really, there is? I can live with the statblocks not being optimized; I've heard opinions that WotC intentionally do suboptimal statblocks because not everyone optimizes out the wazoo.

There are also some in the FRCS.

Note however that FRCS and ELH are 3.0 books, and as such came out very early.

3.0 came out in 2000, FRCS and ELH in 2001. This not only means that most of the material that modern C-Op relies on didn't even exist then, but that these books were probably being written before even 3.0 came out so there was next to zero practical experience in the system.

Also as well as in many cases they are converted from 2E stats and/or have what they "should" have for story reasons rather than to display system mastery.


So saying that they are not well optimised by the standards of 2020, well we have 20 years of experience and a wealth of splats the original writers didn't and it's unlikely that they were setting out to make the most optimised characters anyway. They also have the restriction that generally NPCs are built with PHB and DMG material + stuff from the book they are in.

For example:

The Simbul in FRCS is Sorcerer 20 / Archmage 2 / Wizard 10.

These days to emulate her one would probably use Ultimate Magus, but they couldn't because that didn't exist then.

[wilphe]

I haven't checked out the ELH for that yet, but I have a feeling that if they wanted epic gishes, they should have remembered that Eldritch Knight has been around since the 3.0e DMG came out.

Nope

Eldritch Knight is 3,5 it was not in 3.0 DMG; neither was Archmage for that matter, that came in FRCS

[wilphe]

Also 2E multiclassing worked very differently and things like Fighter/Mage; Thief/Mage or Fighter/Mage/Thief were pretty good because you advanced everything at the same time kind of like the way gestalt works now.

eg:

Elaith Craulnober is Ftr3/Wiz 9

Jezz the Lame is Rog6/Sor 6

+++++++

And for some characters the transition was not favourable to them both mechanically and for story reasons:

Drizzit is Ftr10/Bbn1/Rgr5

-He's sucking up a 40% XP penalty but he has to have that Barbarian level because he has some similar ability in the books

- And he fights with 2 scimitars because that's what he did when he came out, never mind that's not very good in 3E

[Waxpapers]

The thing that amuses me about the "official" NPC statblocks is the need to have every character absurdly overleveled. Apparently Faerun is absolutely crawling with epic level characters, even though the actual lore usually doesn't involve those characters demonstrating epic-level feats. I think it's just a result of people going "Well this character is super powerful, so they must be... level 25? Yeah, that sounds right!"

[Psyren]

Depends; If I was a Taxi Driver for a year, it wouldn't count as work experiance when I'd start working as an engineer, and this would both affect my ability to get hired, and a lack of experiance would also delay a potential promotion compared to someone who's on the job 2-3 years.

However if I was to choose a similar job, for example Bus Driver, my job experiance would cummulate, and help me get hired over one that lacks it.


Bad analogy; your character build is not a resume, and the number of jobs you can hold before your true calling (especially at Elminster's age) is much less finite than the number of levels you can have pre-epic. Retraining doesn't mean that you can't draw from what you learned in the levels that are no longer on your sheet - it just means that those levels won't detract from your overall power the way they would if they were still hanging on there.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The 3.0 book Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has stat blocks for pretty much all the FR iconic characters scattered throughout. Just look them up by name in the index at the back, it gives a page number for each mention of them and the one in bold is their stat block. Keep in mind that pretty much every one of them is in serious need of being rebuilt. None of them use anything but the core rules and resources in the book they're printed in, and they all have way too many levels of bad base classes, because the prestige classes that were printed in 3.0 didn't exist when these characters were originally written.

Artemis Entreri is a Rogue 4/ Ranger 1/ Fighter 12/ Assassin 1, back when Ranger 1 got you both Two-Weapon Fighting and the now redundant Ambidexterity.

Manshoon is a Wizard 20/ Archmage 2/ Epic Wizard 3, with no listing of spells known or prepared.

Simbul is a Sorcerer 20/ Archmage 2/ Wizard 10, for some reason. A more modern build would include Ultimate Magus at the very least.

Szass Tam is a lich, Wizard (necromancer) 10/ Red Wizard 10/ Archmage 2/ Epic Red Wizard 7. This one's actually not too bad, just replace half the Wizard levels with more Archmage and Epic Red Wizard.

It's almost as if they thought players wouldn't even consider the prerequisites for a prestige class until after the minimum level to qualify, and still need a bunch more feats and/or skill points to invest in those prerequisites before they could start taking them.

[Biggus]

There are also some in the FRCS.

Note however that FRCS and ELH are 3.0 books, and as such came out very early.

3.0 came out in 2000, FRCS and ELH in 2001. This not only means that most of the material that modern C-Op relies on didn't even exist then, but that these books were probably being written before even 3.0 came out so there was next to zero practical experience in the system.


ELH wasn't that early, it was July 2002, a full two years after the 3.0 PHB. You're right in general that a lot of the characters featured in it didn't have the classes and feats to make the most of their builds because they hadn't been published yet though, I'd rebuild most of them if I was going to use them now.


Bad analogy; your character build is not a resume, and the number of jobs you can hold before your true calling (especially at Elminster's age) is much less finite than the number of levels you can have pre-epic. Retraining doesn't mean that you can't draw from what you learned in the levels that are no longer on your sheet - it just means that those levels won't detract from your overall power the way they would if they were still hanging on there.

I think there's something in what he said. It's generally harder to pick up new skills as you get older, so unless the difference in natural talent between you and someone who started years earlier is massive, you shouldn't ever be as good as them.

[Khedrac]

The 3.0 book Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has stat blocks for pretty much all the FR iconic characters scattered throughout.

...

Manshoon is a Wizard 20/ Archmage 2/ Epic Wizard 3, with no listing of spells known or prepared.

Simbul is a Sorcerer 20/ Archmage 2/ Wizard 10, for some reason. A more modern build would include Ultimate Magus at the very least.

Szass Tam is a lich, Wizard (necromancer) 10/ Red Wizard 10/ Archmage 2/ Epic Red Wizard 7. This one's actually not too bad, just replace half the Wizard levels with more Archmage and Epic Red Wizard.

Fixed that for you. Because the FRCS predates the ELH by so much it does not have the concept of epic classes, instead "Epic" is a class in it's own right, and this is what the characters have levels in.

Several of the other early 3.0 books also use the epic class.

[Psyren]

I think there's something in what he said. It's generally harder to pick up new skills as you get older, so unless the difference in natural talent between you and someone who started years earlier is massive, you shouldn't ever be as good as them.

It's harder for most people, but adventurers and iconic NPCs are demonstrably not most people. Even in our world, there are dozens of CEOs whose careers began in places completely unrelated to the companies they lead now.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fixed that for you. Because the FRCS predates the ELH by so much it does not have the concept of epic classes, instead "Epic" is a class in it's own right, and this is what the characters have levels in.

Several of the other early 3.0 books also use the epic class.

It's true they were printed that way, but as soon as the ELH was published they retroactively became levels in the appropriate classes.

[Biggus]

It's harder for most people, but adventurers and iconic NPCs are demonstrably not most people. Even in our world, there are dozens of CEOs whose careers began in places completely unrelated to the companies they lead now.

True, but being a CEO often doesn't have that much to do with the specific products the company sells, it's got more to with management skills, which are largely transferable from one job to another.

While I'm not against some limited degree of retraining, the rules in the PHB2 have always seemed excessively generous to me.

[danielxcutter]

I have a feeling that a lot of these characters were made however the hell the guys making them wanted to, then had a bunch of extra levels slapped on just to make them strong enough to roflstomp most PCs. A lot of them actually started out as the first PCs, after all.

Of course even then a lot of them can be roflstomped by PCs of much lower level (if higher optimization), but I don’t even think optimization was even desired, let alone attempted.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

All of them originally started out in much older editions of the game. I'm not even sure if first edition had multiclassing, second edition had both multiclassing and dual-classing, both of which worked way different from how third edition does it. In second edition multiclassing was basically like a gestalt character, except hp was average between the two, and you leveled up slower because only half your xp earned could be applied to each class. Dual-classing was like reaching X level and saying "I quit!" to that class, starting over at 1st level in a new class and keeping only your hp total, then once the new class leveled up higher than the old class was, it comes crawling back begging you to start using its class features again. None of that translates well into third edition.

The published iconic NPC stat blocks should be used as a starting point, and they should be rebuilt to a relative power level that's appropriate to a given game.

[Endarire]

@OP: Iconic NPCs for PHB classes (Mialee, Krusk, etc.) were published in various sources. The Circle of Eight mod for Temple of Elemental Evil gathered the stats and made these characters playable in-game.

As for why Elminster has the official stats he does, he was probably made by Ed Greenwood, author of Faerun, and given arbitrary stats.

[Psyren]

True, but being a CEO often doesn't have that much to do with the specific products the company sells, it's got more to with management skills, which are largely transferable from one job to another.

That was just one example, we have scientists and doctors and pro athletes and other professions that started out as something else. My overarching point is still the same, if we had a "level system" in real life that kept track of every vocation you had before the main one, it would limit your potential in the main one more than actually happens in real life.



The published iconic NPC stat blocks should be used as a starting point, and they should be rebuilt to a relative power level that's appropriate to a given game.

This.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Endarire
As for why Elminster has the official stats he does, he was probably made by Ed Greenwood, author of Faerun, and given arbitrary stats.

For instance, he has a CR of 45, even though he only has 35 listed class levels. Either Chosen of Mystra is one hella template or there's a math error in there somewhere.

[Afghanistan]

For instance, he has a CR of 45, even though he only has 35 listed class levels. Either Chosen of Mystra is one hella template or there's a math error in there somewhere.

To my knowledge, there is no Chosen of Mystra template, however there is a sidebar suggesting what you do when making a Chosen of Mystra. In it, you gain:


A bonus spell of each level. These spells are cast as Spell-like abilities, however once selected, these can never be changed.
Spell immunity to one spell of each level from 1st to 9th. Once selected, these can never be changed.
Immunities to Aging, Disease, Disintegration, and Poison. They no longer need to sleep, but must rest normally to regain spells.
Detect Magic (Su) constantly
The ability to use Silver Fire, which deserves it's own list entirely.

Act as if you were wearing either Ring of Warmth (Endure Elements basically), Ring of Mind Shielding (Protection from Good essentially), Breath water, or banish all external magical compulsions as a Greater Dispelling (Greater Dispel Magic). Only one of these can be used at a given time.
Function as if they had a Ring of Sustanence for as long as 7 days and can only be used once a tenday (once a week).
Once, every 70 minutes(?) you can blast a 70ft long, 5ft wide line of Silver Fire that ignores all barriers and deals 4d12 fire damage (Reflex DC 23; half) OR as a 70ft Cone, dealing no damage but instead restoring magic to a dead magic zone or dispelling an antimagic field.
All of these abilities are as a 20th level Sorcerer.

A +10 "enhancement bonus" to Constitution.


Whether you sincerely believe these warrant a +10 bonus to CR is anyone's guess. I for one, do not believe this to be the case. At best, it would be a +4 or +5? I'd say the most terrifying aspect of Elminster is that he is an Epic level Wizard at the end of the day, but a cursory glance of his feats makes you seriously question if the designer had any idea what was going into this stat block. The even more surprising feature is that Elminster genuinely is one of the few NPCs, in fact all of the Faerun NPCs in that book, that we get Height as a statistic. This is shared by Lord Robilar, and is the only other NPC outside of the Faerun NPCs that has this statistic. Most NPCs in the Epic level Handbook are at least 6 ft tall.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I've never read the novels, but it's my understanding that Silver Fire was just a plot device that was always able to do whatever the writers needed it to do at the time. The abilities listed for it are just what had appeared in the novels at some point, and they needed to break it down into something that followed the game's rules, rather than an author's whims.

Being able to pick one 1/day spell-like ability at 1st-9th, and especially being able to pick one spell to be outright immune to at 1st-9th, is pretty good, especially considering this was 3.0 immunity so you just ignore it no matter what. Just pick the most likely spell at every level to screw you over, regardless of whether SR would apply: Disjunction, Dimensional Lock, Greater Dispel Magic, even Alarm.

Simbul is level 32 but CR 36, and is also a Chosen of Mystra, so it doesn't add +10 CR. Manshoon is level 25 and CR 25, and Szass Tam is a level 29 lich at CR 31, so it's not epic levels that are counting as extra toward their CR. I think most of Elminster's +10 CR is due to his unwritten plot powers.

[danielxcutter]

...Well that’s odd, because the statblock I found said CR 39. Chosen of Mystera is pretty powerful, so CR +4 does make some sense.

[Afghanistan]

So, while it is not exactly a "statblock" it is interesting to note that Ioulaum is an Elder Brain Lich with 31 levels of Wizard, 5 levels of Archmage and 5 levels of Netherese Arcanist for a grand total CR of 68. As he is not, to my knowledge fully stated out, he is still very obviously intended to be very powerful.

That said, Larloch is listed in Lords of Darkness. He is a Wizard 20 / "Epic" 12. Obviously, this is meant to suggest that Larloch is 32 levels of pure Wizard. It is an absolute joke of a stat block, that, a quick google search shows that it was published some 4 months AFTER the original publication of the Epic Level Handbook, which serves to show that the writers for Lords of Darkness could not even be asked to read a sourcebook on the subject matter they were writing about :smalltongue:

It should be noted that this is not the first instance of this in the very same book. Indeed, some 79 pages prior, they give a loose stat for Telemont Tanthul as a Lawful Evil male Shade with 20 levels of Wizard, 5 levels of Archmage, and 10 levels of "Sha", which I can only presume is "Shadow Adept" from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, and the Player's Guide to Faerun. How Telemont Tanthul is somehow deserving of the Archmage prestige class, but Larloch isn't is actually beyond me.

[danielxcutter]

So, while it is not exactly a "statblock" it is interesting to note that Ioulaum is an Elder Brain Lich with 31 levels of Wizard, 5 levels of Archmage and 5 levels of Netherese Arcanist for a grand total CR of 68. As he is not, to my knowledge fully stated out, he is still very obviously intended to be very powerful.

That said, Larloch is listed in Lords of Darkness. He is a Wizard 20 / "Epic" 12. Obviously, this is meant to suggest that Larloch is 32 levels of pure Wizard. It is an absolute joke of a stat block, that, a quick google search shows that it was published some 4 months AFTER the original publication of the Epic Level Handbook, which serves to show that the writers for Lords of Darkness could not even be asked to read a sourcebook on the subject matter they were writing about :smalltongue:

It should be noted that this is not the first instance of this in the very same book. Indeed, some 79 pages prior, they give a loose stat for Telemont Tanthul as a Lawful Evil male Shade with 20 levels of Wizard, 5 levels of Archmage, and 10 levels of "Sha", which I can only presume is "Shadow Adept" from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, and the Player's Guide to Faerun. How Telemont Tanthul is somehow deserving of the Archmage prestige class, but Larloch isn't is actually beyond me.

To be fair, it's not like every wizard goes into Archmage anyways. And I'd bet that they did those statblocks before the ELH came out and forgot to revise it, rather than actively ignoring it.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by danielxcutter
...Well that’s odd, because the statblock I found said CR 39. Chosen of Mystera is pretty powerful, so CR +4 does make some sense.

I’m looking at p. 7 of the 3.0 FRCS, which begins by listing Elminster as Male human (Chosen of Mystra) Ftr 1/Rog 2/Clr 3/Wiz 20/Acm 5/Epic 4, with a CR of 45.


Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
Being able to pick one 1/day spell-like ability at 1st-9th, and especially being able to pick one spell to be outright immune to at 1st-9th, is pretty good, especially considering this was 3.0 immunity so you just ignore it no matter what.

His chosen immunities are Detect Thoughts, Disintegrate, Evard’s Black Tentacles, Feeblemind, Finger of Death, Fireball, Magic Missile, Sunburst and Time Stop.


Originally Posted by Afghanistan
...which serves to show that the writers for Lords of Darkness could not even be asked to read a sourcebook on the subject matter they were writing about….

To be fair, a four-month difference in release dates is point-blank in publication terms. Both teams were probably scrambling to meet their deadlines and didn’t have much time to cross-check their work.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

His chosen immunities are Detect Thoughts, Disintegrate, Evard’s Black Tentacles, Feeblemind, Finger of Death, Fireball, Magic Missile, Sunburst and Time Stop.

I was just listing off the spells I would pick. That Big E picked Time Stop basically means time isn't slowed down for him when someone else casts it, i.e. he acts during someone else's time stop. That it doesn't actually slow down time isn't really something they considered, I guess, but again most of what those NPCs have are plot powers from novels or mechanics from older editions.

[Melcar]

I'm still not sure why all super-mary-sue wizards get a fighter dip though. Maybe it's a pre-rec to ender the DM PC prestige class (it's first level ability says it doesn't show up on the Character sheet)?

Have you read the Elminster novels?

He starts off as a mercenary, then a thief, then a female cleric and then wizard... Its simply because Ed Greenwood designed him as such...

Sure its sub-optimal, but he still has his 29 casting levels. What is a complete mystery is why some of the Seven Sister are both Wizard and Sorcerer... that makes no sense in 3.X since it two different casting pools... In those cases I would say change the class with the fewest levels to that of the other arcane class...

But yes, the NPC are woefully sub-optimized to a point where they in no way represent their abilities in the novels. So I would say keep the classes, but at least give them proper items and such...



I was just listing off the spells I would pick. That Big E picked Time Stop basically means time isn't slowed down for him when someone else casts it, i.e. he acts during someone else's time stop. That it doesn't actually slow down time isn't really something they considered, I guess, but again most of what those NPCs have are plot powers from novels or mechanics from older editions.

Remember in 2nd ed, timestop actually stopped time flow in a short radius area... now it makes no sense at all to be immune to an effect that affects your enemy... It really only means Elminster cant cast timestop on himself... clearly a mistake from the designers... but then again, he was one of the first to be statte in 3.0 days!

[Efrate]

Wulfgar and catti-brie were statted in some FR splat sometime in 3.0/3.5 I remember seeing that. A lot of important NPCs are given a quick little (class x/y) after their name but with no further details. I think Gromph Baenrae is listed as Wizard X/archmage Y somewhere but that's a vague memory at best. I want to say like 23/4 but I do not recall exactly. ELH has a lot of big greyhawk npcs, but most of the known named characters are from FR .

[Melcar]

Wulfgar and catti-brie were statted in some FR splat sometime in 3.0/3.5 I remember seeing that. A lot of important NPCs are given a quick little (class x/y) after their name but with no further details. I think Gromph Baenrae is listed as Wizard X/archmage Y somewhere but that's a vague memory at best. I want to say like 23/4 but I do not recall exactly. ELH has a lot of big greyhawk npcs, but most of the known named characters are from FR .

41 Ioulaum (LN elder brain lich Wiz31/Acm5/Netherese Arcanist5) (p101 Lost Empires of Faerun)
36 Qysar Shoon VII (NE male human demilich Necromancer31/Acm5) (p121 Lost Empires of Faerun)
36 The Skulls (CN advanced flameskull Sor26/Acm5/NethereseArcanist5) (p111 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
35 Telamont Tanthul (NE male shade Wiz20/Acm5/Sha10) (p82 Lords of Darkness)
33 Rhangaun (NE male human lich Wiz20/Acm5/Epic8) (p178 Lords of Darkness)
32 Larloch (LE Male Human lich Wiz20/Epic12) (p161 Lords of Darkness)
32 Aumvor the Undying (CE augmented elite Netherese human lich Necromancer (15/Acm5/Epic7/NethereseArcanist5) (p127 Champions of Ruin)
32 The Simbul (CN female human Sor20/Acm2/Wiz10) (p112 Unapproachable East)
32 Melcar Silverdragon (male human Wiz15/ AcA5/ Acm5/WzK5/Wrd2)
31 The Keeper of Thaal (NE male human demilich Wiz31) (p179 Underdark)
31 Kartak Spellseer (CE male augmented human lich Nec20/Acm5/Epic6) (p178 Lords of Darkness)
30 Arthindol (N male sarrukh lich Wiz25/Acm5) (p102 Lost Empires of Faerun)
30 High Lord Planner Illis Khendarhine (LN male deep Imaskari Sor4/Wiz20/Acm6) (p138 Underdark)
30 Lady Saharel (CG female Netherese human ghost Wiz20/Acm5/NethereseArcanist5) (p90 Anauroch: The Empire of Shade)
30 Halaster Blackcloak (male human Wiz25/Acm5) (p6 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
29 Elminster (CG male human Chosen of Mystra Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz20/Acm5/Epic4)(p7 FRCS)
29 Szass Tam (NE male lich Necromancer10/RedWizard10/Acm2/Epic7) (p169 Unapproachable East)
29 Lord Apprehender Ebrul Naramixna (N male deep Imaskari Sor10/Wiz15/Acm4) (p138 Underdark)
29 Zalathorm Kirkson (LN male human Diviner20/Loremaster4/Halruaan Elder5) (p133 Shining South)
29 Rhaugilath the Ageless (LG male human archlich Wiz22/Acm5/Netherese Arcanist2) (p102 Lost Empires of Faerun)
28 Wulgreth of Ascalhorn (LE male human lich Wiz20/Acm3/Netherese Arcanist5) (p111 Lost Empires of Faerun)
27 Shradin Mulphor (NE nishruu [augmented male human] Necromancer22/Acm5) (p110 (p109 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
27 Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun (LN male human Chosen of Mystra Wiz24/Acm3) (p24 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
27 Shangalar the Black (LE male tiefling lich Wiz20/Acm5/Epic2) (p178 Lords of Darkness)
27 Priamon "Frostrune" Rakesk (CE male human lich Wiz20/Acm4/Epic3) (p178 Lords of Darkness) ###DECEASED###
26/11 Danchilaer the Mad Mage (LN male Halruaan human Wiz21/Sor6/Acm5) (Dapplegate) [http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frbk/20060628a]
26 Ardanthe (LN female human Wiz24/Acm2) (The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight) [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20041124a]
26 Belaurant (CN male human Wiz25/Acm1) (The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight)
26 Mardamaun (LN male human Wiz25/Acm1) (The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight)
26 Brennus Tanthul (NE male shade Diviner12/Loremaster8/ShadowAdept6) (p61 Power of Faerun)
26 Lamorak Tanthul (NE male shade Wiz19/Sha7) (p84 Lords of Darkness)
25 Meleghost Zoaster (CN male human Illusionist20/Acm5) (p116 Serpent Kingdoms)
25 Ygnaroth the Necroseer (CE phaerimm Sor25) (p166 Underdark)
25 Daurgothoth (CE male great wyrm black dracolich Wiz20/Acm5) (p42 Dragons of Faerun)
25 Malchor Harpell (NG male Illuskan human Wiz20/Acm5) (p76 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
25 Mattick Tanthul (LE male shade Illusionis16/Sha9) (p83 Lords of Darkness)
25 Vattick Tanthul (LE male shade Illusionis16/Sha9) (p83 Lords of Darkness)
25 Manshoon (LE male human Wiz20/Acm5) (p156 Mysteries of the Moonsea)
25 Izazrem Thal (LN male Rashemi human Wiz16/RedWizard9) (p145 Power of Faerun)
24 Alustriel (CG female human Chosen of Mystra Wiz20/Sor2/Acm2) (p54 Silver Marches)24 Marune the Masked (NE male Tethyrian human Necromancer5/ShadowAdept14/Acm5) (p68 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
24 Nevron (NE male human Cjr10/Red10/Acm2/Epic2) (p278 FRCS)
24 Phaeldara (CN female human Sor16/Wiz8) (p111 Unapproachable East)
24 Telbran Nelarn (CN male Netherese human Sor24) (p31 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
24 Pharos (N male moon elf baelnorn Wiz24) (p124 Lost Empires of Faerun)
24 Keiler Twistbeard (CE male Chondathan Wiz20/Planeshifter4) (p115 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
24 Druxus Rhym (NE male human Tra10/Red10/Acm4) (p278 FRCS)
24 Immirton "Redcloak" Loaden (NG male Tashalar human Wiz14/Master Transmogrifist10 [formerly a LG transmuter]; Str 17, Int 18, Wis 17)
23 Tabra (NG female human Wiz18/Acm5) (p101 Lost Empires of Faerun)
23 Dethud Tanthul (LE male shade Nec15/Sha8) (p84 Lords of Darkness)
23 Laeral Silverhand (CG female human Wiz19/Sor4/Rgr7) (p280 FRCS)
23 Aznar Thrul (CE male Mulan human Evoker10/RedWizard10/Acm3) (p24 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
23 Phourkyn One-Eye (NG male human Wiz20/Acm3) (p161 FRCS)
23 Skouloun (CN male human Wiz22/Acm1) (The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight)
23 Ilcanorr of Luthcheq (NE male Turami human Wiz20/Acm1/Epic2) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frbk/20060510a)
23 Shyressa (NE female human vampire Wiz20/Acm3) (p178 Lords of Darkness)
23 Gulgath (CN male human Wiz23) (p90 Mysteries of the Moonsea)
23 Maskar Wands (LN male Tethyrian human Wiz20/Acm3) (p63 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
###DECEASED###
23 Scalmarel the Sage (LE phaerimm Sor23) (p166 Underdark)
22 Nezram the World-Walker (LN male human Mulan Wiz22) (p80 Lost Empires of Faerun)
22 Ornar of the Claw (CE male human Wiz19/Acm3) (p111 Lords of Darkness)
22 Scsilda Starshield (LN female Cali****e human Sor19/ElementalSavant3 [lich of unique status: unturnable]) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frbk/20061122
22 Guldor Zauviir (NE male drow Wiz20/Acm2) (p175 Underdark)
22 Lauzoril (NE male human Enc10/Red10/Acm2) (p278 FRCS)
22 Sylune (NG female human spectral harpist Wiz20/Sor2/Ftr2) (p280 FRCS)
22 Yhelbruna (LN female human Clr6/Wiz12/Hatran10) (p147 Unapproachable East)
21/6 Yusendre (CG female human Wiz20/Sor6/Acm1) (The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight)
21 Lallara (CE female human Abj10/Red10/Acm1) (p278 FRCS)
21 Deltagar Zelhund (LE male human Wiz18/Lor2/Acm1) (p111 Lords of Darkness)
21 Rhodea Firehair (NG female human Evoker18/Halruaan Elder3) (p134 Shining South) ###DECEASED###
20/3/1 Dyrr the Lichdrow (NE male drow lich Sor20/Wiz3/Clr1 of Velsharoon) (p161 Underdark)
20 Talatha Vaerovree of Innarlith (Female human Wiz17/Acm3) (p187 Magic of Faerun)
20 Malaggar Xarann (CE male drow Enchanter20) (p175 Underdark)
20 Srivven (NE male Mulan human Wiz18/Acm2) (Adaerglast, the Land of Mages)
20 Flammuldinath "Firefingers" Thuldoum (CG male human Wiz20) (p161 FRCS)
20 Antatlab of the Shaking Stones (LE male drow Wiz13/Elemental Savant7) (p175 Underdark)
20 Gromph Baenre (NE male drow Diviner 16/Acm4) (p161 Underdark)
20 Hadrhune (NE male shade Wiz10/Sha10) (p83 Lords of Darkness)
20 Jaluth "Snakeface" Alaerth (CE female human Wiz20) (p111 Lords of Darkness)
20 Slarkrethel (NE male kraken Sor20) (p74 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
20 Thurndan Tallwand (CE male human Wiz20) (p90 Mysteries of the Moonsea)
20 Savengriff (LG male Illuskan human Wiz20) (p31 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
20 Othur Roonsundyr (CN male human Wiz20) (p109 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
20 Phindounma the Abominable (NE phaerimm Sor20) (p166 Underdark)
20 Mythrellaa (CE female human Ill10/Red7/Sha3) (p278 FRCS)
20 Durendair "Greenshadow" Hammask (NG male Illuskan human Wiz14/Horizon Walker4/MysticTheurge2; Str 17, Dex 16, Int 18, Wis 18)
20 Kappiyan Flurmastyr (NG male Tethyrian human Wiz7/MasterAlchemist10/Loremaster3) (p31 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
20 Amaryth Delbara (CG female Illuskan human Sor14/Incantatrix6) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frbk/20060705a)
20 Flyndara Rildar (CN female Tethyrian human Wiz14/Sor6)
20 Melegaunt Tanthul (LE male shade Div16/Sha4) (p83 Lords of Darkness) ###DECEASED###
20/8 The Farseer (LN male Tashlutan human Clr8 of Savras/Diviner10/MysticTheurge10) (p126 Serpent Kingdoms)
20 Zannaster (LE male Chondathan human Necromancer5/Wearer of Purple10/Acm5) (p55 Dragons of Faerun)
20 Alathene Moonstar (CG archlich [augmented Illuskan human] Wiz15/ArcaneDevotee5[Selune]) (p62 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)


Cant remember from whence I got it, so I can't credit the correct person[s], but its a great resource. Note how un-optimized most npc are in terms of having multiple caster pools... its frankly a mess, but I assume most were 1) taken from 2nd edition stuff with no updating, 2) done by designers early in the 3.0 days with poor mastery of the rules...

[wilphe]

ELH wasn't that early, it was July 2002, a full two years after the 3.0 PHB. You're right in general that a lot of the characters featured in it didn't have the classes and feats to make the most of their builds because they hadn't been published yet though, I'd rebuild most of them if I was going to use them now.


Wiki said 2001, so I checked my hardcopy and that says July 2001

[wilphe]

Whether you sincerely believe these warrant a +10 bonus to CR is anyone's guess. I for one, do not believe this to be the case. At best, it would be a +4 or +5?

If you look at Alustriel and the Simbul +4 seems reasonable

Elminster might get another +6 from "I am the Goddess of Magic's boytoy and I have her on speeddial" and "I am the preferred mouthpiece of the designer of the setting"

[wilphe]

Thanks for that

Note that some of them, such as:

30 Arthindol (N male sarrukh lich Wiz25/Acm5) (p102 Lost Empires of Faerun)

25 Ygnaroth the Necroseer (CE phaerimm Sor25) (p166 Underdark

Are also working with beefy hit dice and racial abilities, so their CR would be even higher

[Max Caysey]

Note that some of them, such as:

30 Arthindol (N male sarrukh lich Wiz25/Acm5) (p102 Lost Empires of Faerun)

25 Ygnaroth the Necroseer (CE phaerimm Sor25) (p166 Underdark

Are also working with beefy hit dice and racial abilities, so their CR would be even higher

Cool list! and yes: Qysar Shoon VII, is CR 44, Arthindol is CR 53 and Ioulaum being CR 68!

[wilphe]

Cant remember from whence I got it, so I can't credit the correct person[s], but its a great resource. Note how un-optimized most npc are in terms of having multiple caster pools... its frankly a mess, but I assume most were 1) taken from 2nd edition stuff with no updating

Or they used the conversion document.

You can read it, it's free

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/175363/Dungeons--Dragons-Conversion-Manual-2e-3e

But for reference:

Converting a multi or dual class character from 2E to 3E:

Keep the highest level, divide all other levels by 3 rounding down, assign to taste

The example given is:

8 Fighter / 9 Wizard / 9 Thief

So he'd have:
9th level
9/3 = 3rd level
8/3 = 2nd level

So he is now a 14th level character, and you could divide those up however you like between Fighter, Rogue and Wizard as long you had at least one of each.

For comparison that 8 Fighter / 9 Wizard / 9 Thief would have somewhere between 405,000 and 450,000 XP; making him the equivalent of a 9th level Fighter, an 11th level wizard or up to a 12th level thief if he was single classed.

[wilphe]

TLDR:

Multi and dualclassing in 2E was extremely good.

Whereas in 3E, especially on spellcasters, it's often the high road to irrelevence

[Waxpapers]

According to the Forgotten Realms Wiki, the Menzoberranzan box set for 2E had statistics for a number of NPCs from Salvatore's books. This includes Yvonnel Baenre (Cleric 25), Triel Baenre (Priestess 16), and Jarlaxle (Fighter 17, which seems strange given how he seems to act much more like a rogue). Triel and Jarlaxle got updated in 3rd edition in Underdark, with Triel becoming a Cleric 20 and Jarlaxle becoming a Fighter 18. Gromph also shows up there, as a Diviner 16/Archmage 20, and so does Quenthel, as a Cleric 15/Divine Disciple 4.

[Melcar]

Or they used the conversion document.

You can read it, it's free

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/175363/Dungeons--Dragons-Conversion-Manual-2e-3e

Cool... thanks.

Yes, but also notise how Netherese Arcanist Prestige class requires 4 x Improved Spell capacity... meaning that to take the class you have to be level 36 to take the class... designers did not take that into account, and just fiated the class onto them... Ioulaum is the only dude capable of actually having the class... unless there's some early entery trick I don't know of.

My point is simply, that things seem to be done either from a fluff standpoint or from what can only be described as a lacking mastery of the rules... Either way, before these can properly be used, I strongly suggest that they are altered/ fixed to fit the power level of the individual campaigns. I would probably keep their overall builds and level, but just make them rules legal and with appropriate items, feats powers, stats etc... and removed all traces from 2nd ed. multiclassing!

[danielxcutter]

...Why does everyone forget you get bonus feats for your epic levels? Or is that not enough?

[Melcar]

...Why does everyone forget you get bonus feats for your epic levels? Or is that not enough?

What do you mean? If you dont have 21 level of a certain class, you don't get bonus feats... you can be level 100 in 5 different level 20 classes without recieving a single bonus feat, and no, even npcs like Larloch, who is just a level 32 wizard, is severely under powered, even with a few bonus feats... A few bonus feats does not compare to levels in arch mage or other note worthy prestige classes...

Or, am I completely missing your point?

[Afghanistan]

Yes, but also notise how Netherese Arcanist Prestige class requires 4 x Improved Spell capacity... meaning that to take the class you have to be level 36 to take the class... designers did not take that into account, and just fiated the class onto them... Ioulaum is the only dude capable of actually having the class... unless there's some early entery trick I don't know of.

It is entirely possible to get into the Netherese Arcanist PrC before level 36. The fastest and most hassle free way of doing it, is by going in as 27 straight levels of Wizard. That in mind, Larloch's build would probably be something like Human 27 levels of Wizard, 5 levels of Netherese Arcanist, +2 CR for Lich template for a total CR of 34.

All of that in mind, I have no idea how Aumvor is gaining an additional 2 feats to enter into Netherese Arcanist at 27th level since, to do so that early, one needs the 2 bonus feats gained from the 23rd level of Epic Wizard, and the 26th level of Epic Wizard to do so :smalltongue:


...Why does everyone forget you get bonus feats for your epic levels? Or is that not enough?

Personal experience states people simply not playing enough Epic level. I've never found purpose in telling my players to show up to game as Epic level characters if only because I know how easily those types of games can drift into Elsimoran territories. The game turns into Rocket Launcher tag fairly early on, before epic, and most of the content of the game functions perfectly "fine" without epic level content, furthermore you can detail an interesting story even without Epic level content. Again, this is personal experience.

[danielxcutter]

I also feel the need to remind people that when you get feats you count RHD as well as class levels. Though for at least some of these that still doesn’t help, apparently.

[RNightstalker]

To my knowledge, there is no Chosen of Mystra template, however there is a sidebar suggesting what you do when making a Chosen of Mystra. In it, you gain:


A bonus spell of each level. These spells are cast as Spell-like abilities, however once selected, these can never be changed.
Spell immunity to one spell of each level from 1st to 9th. Once selected, these can never be changed.
Immunities to Aging, Disease, Disintegration, and Poison. They no longer need to sleep, but must rest normally to regain spells.
Detect Magic (Su) constantly
The ability to use Silver Fire, which deserves it's own list entirely.

Act as if you were wearing either Ring of Warmth (Endure Elements basically), Ring of Mind Shielding (Protection from Good essentially), Breath water, or banish all external magical compulsions as a Greater Dispelling (Greater Dispel Magic). Only one of these can be used at a given time.
Function as if they had a Ring of Sustanence for as long as 7 days and can only be used once a tenday (once a week).
Once, every 70 minutes(?) you can blast a 70ft long, 5ft wide line of Silver Fire that ignores all barriers and deals 4d12 fire damage (Reflex DC 23; half) OR as a 70ft Cone, dealing no damage but instead restoring magic to a dead magic zone or dispelling an antimagic field.
All of these abilities are as a 20th level Sorcerer.

A +10 "enhancement bonus" to Constitution.




That is the Chosen of Mystra Template, LA +4.

To answer the OP, I believe there are already posts with links to answer that question.

To answer where the thread is currently going: you don't write stories about people that have no struggles. The epic NPC's listed are underpowered and even more severely under-equipped. The Wulfgar stats give him two magic weapons. Drizz't has what, five? How many have enough gear to fill out a level 20 WBL? They also didn't have Giant in the Playground to seek build advice on either. Epic NPC's aren't power-gamers, and novel "canon" doesn't translate well to in-game RAW.

[danielxcutter]

To answer where the thread is currently going: you don't write stories about people that have no struggles. The epic NPC's listed are underpowered and even more severely under-equipped. The Wulfgar stats give him two magic weapons. Drizz't has what, five? How many have enough gear to fill out a level 20 WBL? They also didn't have Giant in the Playground to seek build advice on either. Epic NPC's aren't power-gamers, and novel "canon" doesn't translate well to in-game RAW.

Novel canon can be translated to in-game RAW; it’s just that the developers were bad at it. And seriously, couldn’t they have made Drizzit a Dervish? Probably would have helped Complete Warrior sales as well...

[Elkad]

Remember, if you made your character in 1e/2e, you could tack 9 levels of fighter on your wizard for less than 1 wizard level worth of XP. Changing classes started you back over at the beginning of the XP table.

So having a few early levels in several other classes became a near-zero.

Then you translate them to 3.0 or 3.5. That fighter level suddenly actually costs you a wizard level, but they just pasted it all in anyway.

[RNightstalker]

Novel canon can be translated to in-game RAW; it’s just that the developers were bad at it. And seriously, couldn’t they have made Drizzit a Dervish? Probably would have helped Complete Warrior sales as well...

You're right, it can be... And I would've like to have seen Drizz't as a Dervish too, but that was a 3.5 class. He would've been perfect for the 3.0 Tempest.


Remember, if you made your character in 1e/2e, you could tack 9 levels of fighter on your wizard for less than 1 wizard level worth of XP. Changing classes started you back over at the beginning of the XP table.

So having a few early levels in several other classes became a near-zero.

Then you translate them to 3.0 or 3.5. That fighter level suddenly actually costs you a wizard level, but they just pasted it all in anyway.

Translating multi-class characters was heavily penalized in conversion...You only got 1/3 levels from your non-highest class.

[Afghanistan]

You're right, it can be... And I would've like to have seen Drizz't as a Dervish too, but that was a 3.5 class. He would've been perfect for the 3.0 Tempest.

A totally missed opportunity during the 3.5 publication. They could have published it as Complete Hero or something to that effect, and include NPCs from other source material using any appropriate material from previously published material. For example, giving Mordenkainen enough of a bonus to Spellcraft to not fail Let Me Go on a result of 5 or lower. Sure, it's only 5, but for an Epic Spell like that, you're never going to ever want to fail it, ever.

[danielxcutter]

A totally missed opportunity during the 3.5 publication. They could have published it as Complete Hero or something to that effect, and include NPCs from other source material using any appropriate material from previously published material. For example, giving Mordenkainen enough of a bonus to Spellcraft to not fail Let Me Go on a result of 5 or lower. Sure, it's only 5, but for an Epic Spell like that, you're never going to ever want to fail it, ever.

Yeah, that would have been great! Would have sold like hotcakes.

[hamishspence]

Novel canon can be translated to in-game RAW; it’s just that the developers were bad at it.

Drizzt's pet Guen in particular is very different from a regular Figurine of Wondrous Power - she's summoned, not animated. She's Large, not Medium. I'd use the Dire Puma from Sandstorm as a basis for her statblock.