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Neon Knight
2007-10-24, 05:06 PM
So, as I DM one of the things that bothers and concerns me the most is how subtle I am. I'm the type that likes to throw an annoying blanket of mystery over the whole adventure, with many secret and bizarre occurrences whose import and true meaning become apparent later.

However, I find myself struggling to balance the air of mystery with the need for the players to have some sort of clue about what's going on in order to get motivated about the situation.

Tying into this concern is the concern that the hints I drop to the players about what is going on are either too obvious or too opaque.

So, let me propose a hypothetical situation to you.

Let's say we have a party of adventurers, scouring a temple of a vain beauty goddess for a valuable chalice. After going through a few trials, they find the chalice room.

And are confronted with the old "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" problem of the real chalice being hidden among a bunch of false cups.

I'm going to present several clues, and what I desire is to know if these are too obvious or too obscure.

A) A repeating motif in the statues of the beauty goddess found in the temple is that rubies are reserved for the goddess. All the other decorations incorporate many different kinds of gemstones, but rubies and rubies only are found in the goddess. The real cup is the only one with rubies.

B) The Beauty Goddess is known to be in rivalry with three other deities. These deities keep the goddess's beloved hound chained in the Underworld for fear that it might devour the sun. All the cups in the room bear images of either the cosmic hound or the sun. The real cup is the only one whose artwork depicts the freed hound devouring the sun.

C) The Goddess, being extremely vain, demands her followers to be masked so as not to detract from her beauty. All the cups depict figures, but only one depicts masked figures. The masked figure cup is the real cup.

Are the above clues too obvious? Not obvious enough?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-24, 05:19 PM
It depends on how the clues are presented during the journey through the temple and somewhat on what they know about the hound.

How do you plan on dropping them? How much do these things stand out in your descriptions?

Each clue in itself is enough to determine, which chalice is the correct one, so they only really need to solve one of them. When they suspect they have the right one the other differences should also be obvious.

Clue C seems to really stand out, but you might present drawn pictures of the chalices that hide this feature. :smallwink:

Renx
2007-10-24, 05:22 PM
Is your group American?

Then there's no such thing as too obvious.

Mewtarthio
2007-10-24, 05:24 PM
It all depends on whether or not they know about the goddess's requests. What's the knowledge (religion) DC to know that kind of information?

Of the three clues (assuming the players know the relevent information), the second is probably the least clear. I'd guess that all the cups depicting the sun alone without the hound would get eliminated immediately (the goddess apparently doesn't like the sun), leaving the PCs to determine which depiction of the dog most fits the goddess's tastes. The rubies are a dead giveaway: If rubies belong only to the goddess, then rubies imply ownership by the goddess. That's basic logic. The third one falls in the middle, but it's still pretty obvious. It's only less obvious than the rubies because there's always the possibility that a cup depicts someone other than the goddess's follower (the goddess herself, perhaps). Once research determines that no cup depicts anyone the goddess considers important, it's a no-brainer.

Bear in mind, I say all these things knowing the solutions beforehand. Everything seems easy in that case. It might have been better to post a puzzle and have everyone else "playtest" it for you.

Of course, the real risk here is that the PCs take all the cups and sell them.

Vuzzmop
2007-10-24, 05:34 PM
Is your group American?

Then there's no such thing as too obvious.


I can see this escalating into something. Let's keep the stereotyping to a minimum.

On topic though, the only one who can help you with this is yourself, we don't know your group, or their play style.

Renx
2007-10-24, 05:45 PM
I can see this escalating into something. Let's keep the stereotyping to a minimum.

On topic though, the only one who can help you with this is yourself, we don't know your group, or their play style.

I'm not trying to stereotype or be insulting, I'm just conforming to the statistics. Just check OotS forum, first 4 threads:
*The legitimacy of the Sapphire Guard (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
*Poll: Belkar's Romantic Intrest (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page)
*Rich: You don't control OoTS anymore (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4)
*Yes, this is another thread about V's gender

I fear the Americans, I really do.

Anxe
2007-10-24, 05:46 PM
I think they're obvious enough if your party members were paying attention. I would add one more clue that the true chalice has a mirror on it somewhere. This being a vain goddess of beauty she would want to look at herself.

raygungothic
2007-10-24, 05:50 PM
You're going to have to wing it, I'm afraid. See which clues your players pay attention to during the adventure, then plug together selected phrases when describing the real cup according to which traits they seemed to be paying attention to.

Clue A is horribly flawed. They will try to claw out every thricebedamned jewel in the entire temple before leaving.

Jasdoif
2007-10-24, 05:52 PM
Of course, the real risk here is that the PCs take all the cups and sell them.This is the primary concern. If the PCs can take all the cups, why would they even bother trying to pick out which is the right one themselves? Just take them all, then find an expert.


Overlooking that, you're saying the "real" chalice... Is the only one with rubies Is the only one with both a hound and a sun Is the only one with figures who are maskedIt's entirely possible they could figure out nothing from the hints you've laid out and still pick the right chalice, simply because it's so different from the rest of them. Unless there are other chalices that have unique features, anyway.

Swooper
2007-10-24, 05:59 PM
I'd propably make the puzzle so that the real cup is the only one with all three. Some cups have rubies, some have images of the hound devouring the sun, some have the people in masks, but only the real chalice has all three.

But as has been said, it depends on how obviously this information is revealed to the PCs, and how you describe the chalices.

Temp
2007-10-24, 06:28 PM
Jasodif's is the worry you should really have. If you differentiate a single cup from all the rest, you run into a problem. You might have to describe each cup individually with equal detail on scraps of paper (or 3x5 cards if you aren't dirt cheap) and hand a pile of them to your players.

Or spend the time vocally describing each, but that sounds like a hassle that most players would fail to solve.


I fear the Americans, I really do.
I'd like to say that's unjustified, I really would... but then I see we paid $350 million to watch that moronic National Treasure movie a few years ago.

asqwasqw
2007-10-24, 06:32 PM
I would say, even though this is the most time consuming, print out pictures of the cups (just find random images on google, at least one should have the motifs you are looking for) and show them to the players. And there should be a consiquence if they pick wrong.

UserClone
2007-10-24, 06:32 PM
I'd like to say that's unjustified, I really would... but then I see we paid $350 million to watch that moronic National Treasure movie a few years ago....And then made a sequel.

Hecore
2007-10-24, 07:16 PM
I like the gemstone one, but I'd have every cup have a different set of gemstones, or wrought from a different metal -- all cups become unique.

That's the biggest problem with them, and one that an earlier poster touched upon - in every example the correct cup is the unique one.

If I were to use the gemstone example I would only mention rubies on the goddess statues and never mention rubies on anything else, but I wouldn't emphasize any of it. If you really think the players have no clue then mention an interesting pattern, or an unusually large stone on one of the statues; it'll bring attention to the gemstones without telling your players that rubies are the clue outright.

Quietus
2007-10-24, 08:14 PM
I'm not trying to stereotype or be insulting, I'm just conforming to the statistics. Just check OotS forum, first 4 threads:
*The legitimacy of the Sapphire Guard (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
*Poll: Belkar's Romantic Intrest (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page)
*Rich: You don't control OoTS anymore (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4)
*Yes, this is another thread about V's gender

I fear the Americans, I really do.

Yes, because it's only Americans on these boards. No one from other countries at all... you know, like myself, being Canadian.


Anyhow, on-topic; I'd follow the general rule of "Make sure all the clues are mentioned twice", to start with. Mentioning it once lets them pass over them. Mentioning them twice will make them stick. Following that, I like the idea of a combination of ALL these features on the various cups, but have only the ONE cup have all of them. This way, you can allow players to have Knowledge (religion) checks - but only give them these checks in response to questions they ask, so you aren't giving out obvious clues. If you just have them give you a K.Rel roll and say "Yeah, Rubies belong to the Goddess, and only the Goddess", then they've solved nothing, they've been handed part of the solution. If, instead, they ASK something like "What meaning do Rubies have with this religion?" and make their roll, then THEY came up with that solution, and it'll feel more like an accomplishment for them.

mostlyharmful
2007-10-24, 08:51 PM
As a half american i can understand some of the feelings expressed here but I have to say that simply failing to understand irony, sarcasm or dry wit does not make them laking in many fine comidic subtlies, the plank and plate glass routine or perhaps a pie in the face gag?:smallbiggrin:

anyway, the truth be told if your guys don't get it they can still make in character knowledge rolls or something, even flat int rolls to put the basic clues together and from there it's often more fun to watch a team of "crack adventurers" (sorry yanks about the sarcasm) go runing off in some lunatic direction you've never thought of. It is important that you get to have fun too you know.

Temp
2007-10-25, 01:01 AM
Anyhow, on-topic; I'd follow the general rule of "Make sure all the clues are mentioned twice", to start with. Mentioning it once lets them pass over them. Mentioning them twice will make them stick. Following that, I like the idea of a combination of ALL these features on the various cups, but have only the ONE cup have all of them.
I'm not sure if I agree with the implications of this. I don't think the same features should be repeated anywhere. For example, you might have one cup with the dog eating the sun, but that would be the only one with that particular carving. The others may have a dog with its back to the moon, the dog balancing a star on its snout, or the dog standing on ocean waves, but there should only be one of each variant. It's a stretch to assume your players will catch on to each individual clue. Of course, this is basing your group's attentiveness on my that of my own.


...And then made a sequel. They didn't. I mean, really? I just cited the other because it was the last and absolute worst film I've ever seen (I'm not much of a television/movie person, but my then-girlfriend's friends dragged us along).

Truly I am shamed.

JadedDM
2007-10-25, 01:44 AM
They didn't. I mean, really? I just cited the other because it was the last and absolute worst film I've ever seen (I'm not much of a television/movie person, but my then-girlfriend's friends dragged us along).

Yep, it comes out in December.

Blanks
2007-10-25, 02:28 AM
Remember puzzles are always obvious when you know the answer.

I have learned, painfully, over the years, that players NEVER get the clues, and NEVER make the connections ;)