[3.5] Rakshasas

[Thurbane]

Do you feel the default Rakshasa (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rakshasa.htm) is a credible CR 10 threat?

Does it remain a credible threat CR 11 through CR 20 by adding class levels?

Do any of the alternate Rakshasas represent better threats for their CR?


Rakshasa, Ak'chazar MM3 CR 15
Rakshasa, Naityan ToB CR 7
Rakshasa, Naztharune MM3 CR 11
Rakshasa, Zakya ECS CR 8

...there's the interesting case of a unique Raksha Bhishana Bhaga, from the 3.0 online module Tiger's Palace (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20020830a), who is advanced by HD rather than class levels.
14 RHD, 8th level casting, CR 11
TL; DR? Do Rakshas make challenging and CR appropriate encounters?

Cheers - T

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The default spell and feat selection is really bad, it absolutely needs to be adjusted if it's going to be a suitable encounter for a 10th level party.

Keep Combat Casting if it's going to take Abjurant Champion (this is a great encounter (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?353631-Sorcerer-BBEG-fight-help-for-my-game-tonight#3)), otherwise pick maybe a +1 or +2 metamagic or even Sudden Maximize or Invisible Spell, and whatever else looks useful.

Pick an assortment of damage and crowd control/debuff spells. Absolutely get Wings of Cover, and make liberal use of it for any attacks that he thinks will hit hard. Area effects that will persist throughout the fight like Stinking Cloud or Sleet Storm are ideal since they're still a hindrance if saves are successful. Something that hits hard like Fireball or Lightning Bolt would be good, even Ray of Stupidity which one-shots anything with animal intelligence, and Power Word: Pain has a lot of potential in the lower levels. Basically pick spells with a round-by-round game plan for fighting multiple opponents, and try to include thematic choices.

[KillianHawkeye]

I agree with customizing spells and feats. For advancing the standard Rakshasa, I would probably only add more Sorcerer levels or prestige class levels that advance spellcasting. Not really familiar with the alternate Rakshasa types.

Possibly swapping their native spellcasting from Sorcerer to Beguiler would be interesting if you want one that's ultra sneaky?

I think I did one with levels in Nightmare Spinner years ago, but the campaign died before the PCs really confronted him head on since he was a totally behind-the-scenes villain for the most part. They did defeat one of his simulacra, though, who had kidnapped and replaced one of the PCs in order to steal an artifact they were looking for.

[Khedrac]

When the 3.5 Monster Manual was written, Spell Resistance was still a major obstacle to enemy casters, and the "normal" SR for a creature is about 11+CR so that casters usually need to roll a 15 on a D20 at worst (EPL+3) to affect them. The Rakshasa's SR is much larger at 17+CR - it could be encountered at APL7 when a caster is looking for a natural 21 to affect it (i.e. without some boost to the roll, it is going to fail).

[This is a hang-over from AD&D where the original Rakshasa was flat out immune to spells below 8th level - which also meant it was immune to cleric spells. Back then SR was a percentage and was modified by +/- 5% for every level the caster was under or over 11th, so a 31st level caster would ignore 100% spell resistance; yet that same 31st level caster meeting a rakshasa, a relatively weak opponent, would have to use their most powerful spells to affect it.]

These days when spellcasters can usually ignore spell resistance, the CR boost their SR gives them is less justified.
What is unusual is that their SR does increase as they gain character levels (SR usually being related to racial HD) so, if one remembers that they are not really supposed to be a combat encounter, then clever DMs can more than justify a Rakshasa's CR.

[the_tick_rules]

Our level 9 party had a rough time with several of them. They were in a dark temple and sneak attacked the crap out of us.

[Darg]

Didn't Rakshasas in 3.0 also have immunity to 8th and lower spells? I might be confusing them from the NWN version though. Either way, adding level immunity would increase the difficulty by quite a bit.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Didn't Rakshasas in 3.0 also have immunity to 8th and lower spells? I might be confusing them from the NWN version though. Either way, adding level immunity would increase the difficulty by quite a bit.

They did, here's the full 3.0 stat block from the SRD at http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html

Rakshasa
Medium-Size Outsider (Evil, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 7d8+21 (52 hp)
Initiative: +2 (Dex)
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 21 (+2 Dex, +9 natural)
Attacks: 2 claws +8 melee, bite +3 melee
Damage: Claw 1d4+1, bite 1d6
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Detect thoughts, spells
Special Qualities: Alternate form, spell immunity, vulnerable to blessed crossbow bolts, damage reduction 20/+3
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +6
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 17
Skills: Bluff +16*, Disguise +17*, Listen +11, Move Silently +11, Perform (ballad, chant, drama, epic, plus any other five) +12, Sense Motive +10, Spot +12
Feats: Alertness, Dodge
Climate/Terrain: Warm forest and marsh
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 9
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: 8-14 HD (Medium-size)
Rakshasas speak Common, Infernal, and Undercommon.
Combat
Detect Thoughts (Su): A rakshasa can continuously detect thoughts as the spell cast by an 18th-level sorcerer (save DC 15). It can suppress or resume this ability as a free action.
Spells: A rakshasa casts spells as a 7th-level sorcerer, and can also cast 1st-level cleric spells as arcane spells.
Alternate Form (Su): A rakshasa can assume any humanoid form, or revert to its own form, as a standard action. This ability is similar to the alter self spell cast by an 18th-level sorcerer, but the rakshasa can remain in the new form indefinitely.
Spell Immunity (Su): Rakshasas ignore the effects of spells and spell-like abilities of 8th level or less, just as if the spellcaster had failed to overcome spell resistance.
Vulnerable to Blessed Crossbow Bolts (Ex): Any hit scored with a blessed crossbow bolt instantly slays a rakshasa.
Skills: A rakshasa receives a +4 racial bonus to Bluff and Disguise checks. *When using alternate form, it gains an additional +10 circumstance bonus to Disguise checks. If reading an opponent’s mind, its circumstance bonus to Bluff and Disguise checks increases by a further +4.
Note their 20/+3 damage reduction, vulnerability to blessed crossbow bolts, and indeed outright immunity to 8th level and lower spells. I think they probably upped the CR to 10 before nerfing those for the 3.5 version. Also keep in mind that they're intended to be tricky opponents, one could assume the identity of a noble and have the city guards come to their defense if attacked, for example.

[Miss Disaster]

Do any of the alternate Rakshasas represent better threats for their CR?


Rakshasa, Ak'chazar MM3 CR 15
Rakshasa, Naityan ToB CR 7
Rakshasa, Naztharune MM3 CR 11
Rakshasa, Zakya ECS CR 8

...there's the interesting case of a unique Raksha Bhishana Bhaga, from the 3.0 online module Tiger's Palace (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20020830a), who is advanced by HD rather than class levels.
14 RHD, 8th level casting, CR 11

I forgot about these variants. And lo-&-behold, I just remembered that I have WotC pre-painted minis of some of them!

Anyhow, I too, would love to hear some insights or play testimonials on these alt-rakshasas.

[Thurbane]

So unless you had a blessed crossbow bolt handy, 3.0 Rakshasas were significantly scarier, with a CR 1 less than now?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So unless you had a blessed crossbow bolt handy, 3.0 Rakshasas were significantly scarier, with a CR 1 less than now?

Pretty much, but Bless Weapon was still a Paladin 1 spell back then, before Paladins had spells like Rhino's Rush to occupy their 1st level slots, so there was a pretty good chance they'd have that prepared.

[Tiktakkat]

I recall one Living Greyhawk adventure that used rakshasas, and the two very different play experiences I saw running it.

In the first, the party managed a Knowledge check to identify them, had magic piercing weapons, had true seeing, and had spells to bypass their SR.
The encounter took about 15 minutes.

In the second, the party, did not. Any of those.
The encounter took about 2 hours and 30 minutes.

Same exact encounter.

Rakshasas are one of those monsters that can be very "swingy" depending on how prepared the party is for "anything", and more if they happen to be spec-ed for it. One archer with a holy bow and a cleric dropping true seeing on him and it is tiger-skinned rugs everywhere. Of course if the fighters like their high crit melee weapons and their spellcasters have not learned that true seeing is truly mandatory, then dinner is served and start statting up the new party.

[Aegis013]

At my table and the games I usually run, Rakshasas (bog standard) can serve as a threat, but not in direct confrontation. Rakshasas blend into in- game organizations and manipulate them for their nefarious ends using Shape Change, Detect Thoughts, Charm Person, Suggestion and Bluff/Disguise. Noticing something is amiss and figuring out who is not the person they seem can be pretty difficult and present interesting challenges.

Once you identify the Rakshasa, killing them is no issue. It's noticing something is amiss and finding them before they can sabotage something else that proves difficult.

[Khedrac]

Pretty much, but Bless Weapon was still a Paladin 1 spell back then, before Paladins had spells like Rhino's Rush to occupy their 1st level slots, so there was a pretty good chance they'd have that prepared.

On of the twists here is that their vulnerability to blessed crossbow bolts goes back to AD&D (1st Ed) when there wasn't a spell to bless weapons. The logical assumption back then was that you could cast bless on a crossbow bolt (not something normally considered, even with gaming usually being much more flexible) to use in these circumstances. For me, this assumption carried through into 3.5 (via 2nd Ed) - I never even considered bless weapon!

The problem with special vulnerabilities like this is because they tend to be an exception from the standard rules, people tend to remember them which make them a serious weakness for the monster against anyone who has read the monster books. 3.0/3.5 actually are better here, as they have a codified mechanism for determining what the characters do and don't know about a creature - and therefore whether the PCs should be able to use the creature's wekness.

[ShurikVch]

If Legend of the Five Rings is OK, then Secrets of the Mantis have Greater Rakshasa - they are 14 HD, CR 18, and completely immune to all divine magic (although this immunity may be suppressed)

[Yogibear41]

Depends on your party composition and their optimization level.

SR 27 vs people with 1d20+10 on their CL checks is pretty hard to beat, if they aren't prepared to fight something that has high SR.
DR 15 is pretty high against people who can't pierce it, or who aren't using some kinda of optimized uber charger build to leap attack for 80 points of damage.


If I was a Rakshasa I would definitely be able to cast Mage Armor, Cloak of Khyber (a 3rd level spell from dragon magazine that is basically made for Rakshasa's) and Fly.
Once I had 4th level spells I would pick up Dimension Door, and once I had an extra 3rd level spell known I would probably pick up heart of water for grapples.

After that I would customize myself to be good at what I wanted to be good at(magic focused vs melee focused), with respect to the area I am in, if there were alot of trolls around I would make sure to know at least 1 fire or acid spell for instance.

Probably the best way to play a Rakshasa is to avoid direct combat, try to use disguises etc to confound and trick people. Cloak of Khyber specifically foils True Seeing.

EDIT:

Honestly after further thought, say you have a completely unoptimized party of 4 9th level characters (fighter, wizard, cleric, rogue). The Wizard prepares nothing but Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, Fireball, Ice Storm, and Cone of Cold. The Fighter has weapon focus and weapon specialization longsword with a shield. The rogue has weapon finesse and skill focus: Search, etc. The Cleric prepares nothing but healing spells.
The Cleric has the Feat Touch of Healing and never uses his last 5th level healing spell. He can then at will heal someone for 15 hp every round. Everyone has a 14 Constitution or better. The Wizard would have a max of 42 hp (average rolls max 1st) and should be the easiest to kill. The Rakshasa could theoretically cast 5 fireballs in a row for an average 24.5 damage each) if he spams them every round, no one ever makes a saving throw, no one has any fire resistance at all, he could probably kill 1 person, maybe 2 if everyone is standing right on top of each other in the blast range.

[Thurbane]

While flicking through the Fiend Folio, I came across the Jackal Lord: interestingly, seems to fill the same kind of niche as Rakshasa (non-human caster that disguises itself), but has Cleric 8 casting at CR 8.

Seems it would be more "bang for buck" than a Rakshasa...or is that just me?

[Fizban]

The Rakshasa's SR is much larger at 17+CR - it could be encountered at APL7 when a caster is looking for a natural 21 to affect it (i.e. without some boost to the roll, it is going to fail).
(As others have noted less directly)- They also have DR 15/ good and piercing- when piercing weapons just flat out deal less damage than slashing: even if you have the 2nd level Align Weapon prepared, your primary weapon is almost certainly not piercing unless you're an archer, rogue, or decided you like rapiers (or you're a char-op'r with a spiked chain build, but most people seem to recommend greatsword rather than pick or scythe). Any piercing weapon in the party will lack the damage bonus properties you had on your main weapon, even if they're not a major step down in base damage.


The Rakshasa could theoretically cast 5 fireballs in a row for an average 24.5 damage each) if he spams them every round, no one ever makes a saving throw, no one has any fire resistance at all, he could probably kill 1 person, maybe 2 if everyone is standing right on top of each other in the blast range.
Note that even if a monster is numerically incapable of killing a PC without luck, that does not change the fact that PCs often do stupid things, and every fireball that hits them is more resources spent on healing (or on pre-emptive resist spells, etc). The primary measure of difficulty is resources expended- is the whole party getting hit with 5 fireballs going to cost them 20% or more resources? Job done.

[AvatarVecna]

Bog-standard Rakshasa is a gimmick encounter, or at least intended to be one. Optimization makes things swing wildly in this regard, but it also kinda renders them moot: either you're strong enough that Rakshasa is just a speed bump, or you need the cheat code item to kill it; alternatively, either the Rakshasa designer isn't even trying and it's a speedbump for a normal party, or they are and your lvl 7 party is facing down a boss with as much casting as them, but also it's functionally impossible to find, or cast on, or damage. There's not a lot of in between, which makes it bad encounter design I think. It's kinda like nilbogs: the first time you ever fight one, you might need to retreat and gather information and figure out a strategy besides head on combat, and the next time you fight that one, you're ready and you win because this was a puzzle disguised as a fight.

And puzzles aren't as interesting to solve the second time.