Making a Cantrip Master feat?

[Greywander]

I want to design a feat for characters focusing on cantrip use, so I'm curious what people would want from such a feat. Here's some of the things I currently have:

You can ignore which class a cantrip came from, e.g. apply the cleric's Potent Spellcasting to non-cleric spells.
Lifts class restrictions on learning cantrips. As in, you can pick any cantrip from any list whenever you learn a new cantrip.
Lets you use any ability score as your spellcasting ability for cantrips. The only restriction is that you have to be able to cast at least one spell that already uses that particular ability score. (E.g. to use WIS, you would need a level in cleric or druid, or a racial spell that used WIS.)
You can replace one cantrip you know with a different one at the end of a long rest.
You can concentrate on other spells while concentrating on a cantrip. If you fail a concentration save, you lose all the spells.
You can cast cantrips as a bonus action instead of an action. The cantrip is unscaled, e.g. Firebolt deals 1d10 damage regardless of your level.

I'm worried that this might be a bit busy. I'm also worried that it might not have things people would actually want on a cantrip user. What sorts of features would you like to see on a feat specifically aimed at cantrip users? Maybe a range boost to non-attack spells (so as not to stack with Spell Sniper)?

[JNAProductions]

Definitely feels too busy.

Also, it's OP if taken as a VHuman, since it basically doubles your damage output.

What I'd think about doing is allowing you to upcast Cantrips, via spending spell slots. That way, you have something to do with your resources instead of just letting them lie.

[Greywander]

Returning with a new version.

Add proficiency bonus to damage rolls.
Save for half damage.
You can cast cantrips as a bonus action, but they deal damage equal to prof. bonus (if any). Good for utility cantrips or damage cantrips with a rider (e.g. Ray of Frost, Vicious Mockery).
All cantrips added to your spell list(s).
You can replace one cantrip with a different one after a short rest, or all cantrips after a long rest.

Feedback? Maybe drop the "save for half", since that would step on the Evoker's toes?

I'm also worried that the first bullet point will make EB too strong, but I'm not sure how to specifically counter that without nerfing other cantrips. I'm considering making the damage bonus once per target per turn, so if you hit multiple enemies you get to do bonus damage to each of them, or if you hit the same enemy over several turns it does bonus damage each time. The only thing it would disallow is hitting the same enemy more than once on the same turn, which normally only EB can do.

Another option might be to make it "one damage roll per turn". If I hit several enemies with Create Bonfire or Thunderclap, I make one damage roll for all of them, right? How many ways are there to make more than one damage roll for a cantrip on the same turn? If I Repelling Blast several enemies into Create Bonfire, do I roll each time an enemy gets pushed, or wait until after they've all been pushed then roll all of them at once?

Or I could just add a clause specifically calling out EB and saying it only applies to the first bolt that hits.

[sengmeng]

Is the goal to make a class function only via cantrips, or just take a caster and make them better at cantrips? That might change my suggestions, but either way...

A few points to consider:

Agree with JNAProductions that there should be some way to make use of your slots.

I'd make the requirements and effects of the feat exclude warlocks entirely. They're so far proving a headache for you and don't really need the help. Maybe have the prerequisites say: "Ability to cast divine or arcane spells, but not through pact magic," and also some wording that it doesn't affect cantrips gained via the warlock class. The prerequisite should still allow multiclass warlocks to benefit, or even warlocks who gained a couple more cantrips through the magic initiate feat, just not pure warlocks who only got cantrips from the warlock class. Not a fan of feat tax, and glad it's not a thing so far in 5e, but in this case, making the warlock need another feat or multiclass dip to use the feat seems balanced.

The first thing I would think of when I hear "cantrip master" is knowing more of them. I'd probably go with "When you take this feat, you learn cantrips from any list (except warlock) equal to your proficiency bonus, and you gain another cantrip whenever your proficiency bonus increases."

I would not let all cantrips be a bonus action, I would say "when you cast a cantrip that deals damage with your action, you may cast a cantrip that does not deal damage as a bonus action," thereby making blade ward and true strike viable to use in combat. Just spitballing there; it may be not worth it if there aren't more than those two that have any effect on combat, and off the top of my head, I can't think of any. Unless you really, really need to use message to communicate with an ally during combat. Definitely would not allow normal spell and cantrip each round for free; that's considered one of the sorcerer's best moves and it costs him sorcery points. Maybe consider two damaging cantrips at the cost of spell slots. For this function of the feat, I would allow eldritch blast to be the cantrip cast as an action, but without any bonuses or modifications from this feat.

Like the idea of casting ability versatility.

Would not let them completely rearrange their list; maybe fixed list plus one floating cantrip able to be swapped out on a short rest.

Like the "proficiency bonus to damage" idea, would probably limit it to one die, period. If you can damage multiple targets, pick one, and if it deals multiple die to the same target, add it once.

Not a fan of the save for half damage on cantrips with an attack roll; wouldn't want so many dice involved in resolving a cantrip when the difference, at least at low levels, might only be 1-3 hitpoints. Maybe save for half if it has a save, reroll 1's on the damage dice if it has an attack roll? Streamlining is already a concern.

General point: I've heard balance for a feat is that it must fall within two parameters; if everyone would always take it, it's too strong, if no one would take it ever, it's too weak. I think you're mostly in line with that, but JNAProductions is right that it can't be allowed to double damage output at level one with a variant human.

Interesting idea and if you polish it a little more, I'd probably want to playtest it.

[HPisBS]

If you want a damage buff that doesn't make EB too OP, then just say "Once per turn, you may add __ to one damage roll you make with a cantrip."


Personally, I think a Cantrip Master feat should make you better at getting your cantrips to actually stick. A way to do that without stepping on Potent Cantrip/Spellcasting's toes - and while incorporating spell slots is:


You add an additional +1 to your spell attack rolls and spell save DCs for your cantrips.
When you cast a cantrip, you may spend a spell slot to gain advantage on you cantrips' spell attack rolls and impose disadvantage on your cantrips' spell save DCs for a number of rounds equal to the level of the spell slot you spent.

[Greywander]

First, new version:

Gain a +1 bonus to cantrip attack and damage roll, and to your cantrip spell save DC.
Cast cantrips as a bonus action, but they don't deal damage.
You can use any ability score as the spellcasting ability for your cantrips, as long as you can already cast at least one spell using that ability score.
Spending a spell slot when you cast a cantrip lets you choose between (a) increasing the cantrip's range (double, triple, quadruple, etc.), (b) targeting one additional creature, (c) making one attack roll at advantage, or (d) forcing one target to make one saving throw at disadvantage. You can apply a number of these effects equal to the spell slot's level.

Still seems too busy.


The first thing I would think of when I hear "cantrip master" is knowing more of them. I'd probably go with "When you take this feat, you learn cantrips from any list (except warlock) equal to your proficiency bonus, and you gain another cantrip whenever your proficiency bonus increases."
Getting lots of cantrips is also something I'd expect from a "cantrip master", but Magic Initiate already exists. I could make a separate feat that gave you three cantrips instead of two cantrips and a 1st level spell, but that would be the entirety of the feat. A feat that gives up to six cantrips is ridiculous, and more so if it grants other benefits as well. I'd love to give more cantrips, but something has to be cut from the feat to balance it with existing feats.


I would not let all cantrips be a bonus action, I would say "when you cast a cantrip that deals damage with your action, you may cast a cantrip that does not deal damage as a bonus action,"
Actually, my initial idea was simply that the BA cantrip wouldn't deal damage. But then I thought I could have it do damage equal to your proficiency bonus, which would be much lower than the damage from casting it as an action. But if BA cantrips don't deal damage, it opens up the possibility of, say, using Ray of Frost to slow someone down, or Chill Touch to stop them from healing.


Like the idea of casting ability versatility.
Yeah, I think I'm going to go back to this.


General point: I've heard balance for a feat is that it must fall within two parameters; if everyone would always take it, it's too strong, if no one would take it ever, it's too weak. I think you're mostly in line with that, but JNAProductions is right that it can't be allowed to double damage output at level one with a variant human.
Yup, this is a good metric.


Personally, I think a Cantrip Master feat should make you better at getting your cantrips to actually stick. A way to do that without stepping on Potent Cantrip/Spellcasting's toes - and while incorporating spell slots is:


You add an additional +1 to your spell attack rolls and spell save DCs for your cantrips.
When you cast a cantrip, you may spend a spell slot to gain advantage on you cantrips' spell attack rolls and impose disadvantage on your cantrips' spell save DCs for a number of rounds equal to the level of the spell slot you spent.

It does make sense that a "cantrip master" might want to somehow use their spell slots with their cantrips, so I added something to that effect. Feels too busy, but it provides some nice versatility that makes cantrips actually pretty potent. Maybe I can find a way to streamline it.

[Amechra]

I'd like to say, Greywander, that I'm not a fan of anything in the newest version of your feat. It feels (like you've said) really busy, and it does a lot of stuff that doesn't feel right in 5e - +1 to attack rolls and save DCs is generally not a thing that happens.

My suggestion:

Cantrip Master
Prerequisites: The ability to cast spells.
• +1 to Charisma, Intelligence or Wisdom.
• When you cast a cantrip, you may double either the range or the duration.
• Whenever you cast a damage-dealing cantrip with a single target, you may expend a spell slot. If you do, roll a number of additional damage dice equal to that slot's level. Once you've done so, you cannot do so again until you complete a short or long rest.

Maybe replace the half-feat with learning a cantrip? I dunno.

EDIT: I hope I don't sound like a jerk - this has been something I've been musing about for a little while now, so of course I think what I've come up with is the best.

[Kane0]

You can replace one cantrip you know with a different one from any list at the end of a long rest.
You can concentrate on other spells while concentrating on a cantrip. If you fail a concentration save, you lose all the spells.
You can use any ability score as the spellcasting ability for your cantrips, as long as you can already cast at least one spell using that ability score.


I think these three are good.

If you wanted to add one more bullet for damage output, i’d say keep the bonus action cantrip but only allow it to trigger if the cantrip you cast using your action did not deal damage. That way it increases your average per turn but not your maximum.

[Yakk]

This is a wizard subclass I kitbashed together. Related, but not the same as this problem: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?606753-Only-cantrip-wizard-subclass-help-needed

[Greywander]

Once more, with feeling:

The range and duration of your cantrips are doubled. Cantrips with a range of touch don’t increase their range.
You may use any ability score as your spellcasting ability for your cantrips, provided that you can already cast at least one spell using that ability score.
You may replace one cantrip you know with a different one at the end of a long rest.
You may use a bonus action to cast any cantrip with a casting time of one action. Cantrips you cast this way don’t deal any damage, unless you expend a spell slot of 1st level or higher.


EDIT: I hope I don't sound like a jerk - this has been something I've been musing about for a little while now, so of course I think what I've come up with is the best.
Nah, it's fine. This is a really tricky concept to work out, because there's so many ways it could go. Honestly, a "cantrip master" would probably be better realized as an entire class. In fact, I have a partial class written up that focuses entirely on at-will casting, even for leveled spells. (Two classes, actually, though the actual mechanics of each are completely different.) Of course, that's an even trickier concept. I'm just not sure that this concept can be captured in a single feat. What I have in mind, at least, is more of a "resourceless caster", which really would need to be its own class.