Putting some oomph into Lore Bard

[ZorroGames]

Playing around with a Lore Bard build for a face PC but want to boost combat slightly more for “when push comes to shove” situations and minimizing spell loss for Lore Bard.

The real question is Fighter or Warlock and for a one (preferred) or two (if needed) level dip?

[Zetakya]

That's really a very wide question. Fighter is going to give you a very different combat experience than Warlock.

For a Lore Bard my preference would be to lean into your existing full caster status, and pull in Magic Initiate: Sorcerer for some good damage cantrips.

[ZorroGames]

That's really a very wide question. Fighter is going to give you a very different combat experience than Warlock.

For a Lore Bard my preference would be to lean into your existing full caster status, and pull in Magic Initiate: Sorcerer for some good damage cantrips.

At first level as a variant human that would work but could you please just stick to answering my question? There is a tendency on this forum to ignore the question asked and swan off into answering a question that was not asked.

[stoutstien]

I guess it comes down to what you want out of the dip. Fighter will get you more defense and slightly better weapon options where warlock get EB and a SR slot.

Personally I wouldn't dip out of lore Bard and if I did it would have to be into another full caster to prevent delayed progress.

Lore bards are amazing as is. Cutting words is plenty of oomph.

[Joe the Rat]

If you have the Str or Dex, Fighter:
- Costs a level of spell progression
+ Gives martial weapons, medium armor, and shields
+ Gives a fighting style - your preferred weapon, extra AC , or yet another way to use reactions to screw with other's attacks (shield required)
+ Gives Second Wind; 1d10+1(2) hp for yourself in a pinch
+ Gives an extra hit point.
A second level:
- Costs a level of spell progression
+ Gives an extra hit point, increased second Wind by one
+ Gives Action Surge, the most versatile ability in the game.

You are a little tougher with a couple of tricks, and have a couple of good weapon options added. But without extra attack, you are roughly a War Cleric in terms of martial prowess. Bards are still decent archers, and you can Magic Secrets some handy range tricks.

Warlock:
- Costs a level of spell progression
+ Gives a 1st level spell slot that recovers on a short rest
+ Gives X-Blade Cantrip access. This can balance off the lack of extra attack.
+ Gives access to eldritch blast if you need a shooty option.
+ Gives access to Hex (not as useful without multiattack/multishot spells), Hellish Rebuke, Armor of Agathys (thp + porcupine damage, no concentration, scales decently)
With a Second Level:
- another level of casting
+ an additional spell, and second short rest slot
+ TWO INVOCATIONS. You can be an EB doomspammer, Pocket Telekinetic (Repelling Blast + Grasp of Hadar), or something really wacky and Bard-like such as Read all forms of writing, Talk with the animals, or at-will Disguise self.

Plus whatever your Patron offers.

...

You were thinking Hexblade, weren't you?

(sighs)

+ Armor and Weapons as Fighter
+ The ability to have one not-two-handed weapon be charisma-based
+ Hexblade's Curse: a single target Hex/Rage effect letting you give one person a really hard time.

...though I am more a fan of Fey, Old One, or Celestial on a Bard (fascination, telepathy, or holy fire and a bonus action healing pool)

Warlock will make you more magically powerful - blasty/shooty, or magi-fighterish if you go Hexblade.

[JackPhoenix]

Generally, warlock. Hexblade, of course. Fighter 1 gets you heavy armor and Con save proficiency if you start as one, but those are more of passive benefits. Attacks you'll get will be based on Str on Dex, which are secondary (or tertiary) stats for a bard. Second Wind is nice, but bard already has access to healing spells, and it scales with fighter level. Fighter 2 can give you Action Surge, which can be used to cast two spells in a turn, but bard doesn't have much in the way of damaging spells, so you can't really use it to nova. If you don't start as fighter, hexblade will give you all fighter does, and more (except Second Wind).

(Hexblade) Warlocks gives you the same weapon proficiency as fighter, but based on your primary stat, best attack cantrip in the game (which scales with character level), you can grab some spells (Shield) you'd normally have to use Magical Secrets for, and medium armor and shield for AC just slightly lower than what heavy armor would give you. Warlock 2 will allow you to improve EB further by taking Agonizing Blast, and/or pick some other useful invocation. It's just so front-loaded it's clearly the best option.

Non-Hexblade warlocks still give you EB and possibly invocations, but you'll lose on proficiencies (which may or may not matter, depending on how you want to play), but you'll get different spells and patron features (no Shield, though).

[Zetakya]

At first level as a variant human that would work but could you please just stick to answering my question? There is a tendency on this forum to ignore the question asked and swan off into answering a question that was not asked.

Frankly if this is an already existing character then I don't have an answer for you; it'll all come down to what the character would do in the circumstances, and that's a matter of roleplaying.

In pure "build" terms I wouldn't go for either, Lore Bard is an excellent caster and doesn't benefit enough from either of the options you've asked about. Not even Hexblade.

[Quietus]

Between those two options, I'd prefer warlock. It sounds like you want offense, and fighter won't get you much of that. I'd either be looking at 2 levels of warlock for the invocations... Or, just take magic initiate :warlock, to pick up Eldritch blast and hex. Depends on what's more precious to you, levels or feats.

[Zetakya]

The problem with taking a level in Fighter for more combat "oomph" is that being an effective fighter combatant is expensive in terms of ASIs. Even as an Archer type, you need a reasonable amount of DEX, and if you plan of swinging a sword then you need CON or most of your important contributions from Concentration Spells are at risk.

[Skylivedk]

Playing around with a Lore Bard build for a face PC but want to boost combat slightly more for “when push comes to shove” situations and minimizing spell loss for Lore Bard.

The real question is Fighter or Warlock and for a one (preferred) or two (if needed) level dip?

1) you have plenty of oomph, A+ or S-tier class.

2) Hexblade is probably the best dip (.... As it often is). You get medium armour+shield, great spells (Shield!) and the best damaging cantrip plus arguably the best damage debuff (Hexblade's Curse)

3) if you do go fighter, you probably want 2 levels in the long run to get action surge. Two leveled spells in one round is very very good.

4) Paladin can give you a lot of oomph through smites as well

5) it's tempting to do 2 levels, but I'd only recommend it if you find yourself cantrip spamming a lot post level 6. In general, I'd say the delay is too expensive

[JackPhoenix]

1) you have plenty of oomph, A+ or S-tier class.

Not really. Lore bard is great out of combat, but on its own, it's the worst option if you want to contribute directly (i.e. actually killing enemies instead of buffing your allies or applying CC or debuffs) in battle.

[Chad.e.clark]

For just a two level dip, I can't imagine fighter would add "more oopmh when push comes to shove" beyond having a wider array of weapons to make a single attack per Action and one Action Surge per short rest, as well as medium armor and shields.

Its hard to argue against Hexblade. Even a one level dip gets most of the exciting perks (medium armor and shields) of a single level fighter dip, plus attack cantrips (personally I am a fan of Toll the Dead over EB without Agonizing Blast) and the Shield spell. Maybe take Armor of Agathys to upcast with Bard slots or Hellish Rebuke maybe. If you dip to Hexblade 2, EB with Agonizing Blast becomes a much more attractive option, and you have another invocation to play with, and one of them being reading any written laguage fits a Lore Bard to a "T".

How much delay in Bard spell progression is cantrip-driven offense, medium armor, shields, and a handful of Level 1 spells worth to you and when will it make the biggest impact? For me, I would take the Hexblade dip for a Lore Bard at Bard 4. As long as you are having fun playing your character and your group is having fun playing with you, its all good.

[loki_ragnarock]

Fighter or Hexblade?

Hexblade. Everything you get scales with level. The curse is based on proficiency; divorced from the warlock levels. Eldritch Blast is also divorced from Warlock levels, and basically adds attacks equivalent to a high level fighter. If you want more than that, you can take a second level for invocations to make that eldritch blast the same as being a high level fighter. And that's on top of getting the same proficiencies as a fighter through multi-classing. And a free slot every short rest to cast shield, a bounded accuracy killer. And all of it is SAD.

It's not even a competition if your stated goal is to not burn through spell slots.

What fighter can do, though, is with a two level dip let you burn through spell slots even faster.


And yes, there are other varieties of Warlock. But why bother countenancing them for a discussion about adding oomph?

[LibraryOgre]

I think a two-level dip in fighter has a lot to recommend it.

Dueling style; if you get in melee combat, you can throw a bit of extra damage. If you pick up a combat cantrip (Shillelagh, Booming Blade, etc.) with Additional Magical Secrets, you can add that damage in... Shillelagh would let you have Charisma as a combat stat, and get a +2 to damage on top of that, and works with pretty much any (free) club you find. With a two-level dip in Fighter, you also pick up Second Wind (helpful, but not crucial, bonus action free healing), and Action Surge, letting you toss an additional spell or attack in once per short rest.

Another option? Paladin. Two levels of Paladin means you've only sacrificed one level of spellcasting. Lay on Hands is more reliable and versatile than Second Wind, though with a slower refresh. No Action Surge, but a few Paladin spells, plus Divine Smite to add some combat oomph.

Your magical side is covered by being a bard. Fighter or Paladin will give you a bit more rounding, without sacrificing much.

[Yakmala]

Personally, I would not touch a Lore Bard's progression until they hit Magical Secrets at Level 10 [picking up Additional Magical Secrets at level 6 along the way]. The ability to pick and choose from all the [appropriate level] spells in the game is simply too good to pass up.

That being said, if you must take a dip early, then the answer is the same for Bards as it is for most Charisma based builds... Hexblade. Better armor, shield use, Hexblade's Curse, Single Attribute Dependent, more cantrips including Eldritch Blast and Shield spell. There's a reason some folks complain about Hexblade. You won't find a more useful, front-loaded multi-class dip anywhere in 5E.

[clash]

What level are you at currently? That plays a lot into what you should do next.

[Dork_Forge]

Not really. Lore bard is great out of combat, but on its own, it's the worst option if you want to contribute directly (i.e. actually killing enemies instead of buffing your allies or applying CC or debuffs) in battle.

Do you mean the worst option in general or just out of the Bards? Bards as a whole get some decent profs and can pick up a combat spell of their choice at 6th, I think Glamour Bards would be worse off in damage output than a Lore Bard.

[Evaar]

Not really. Lore bard is great out of combat, but on its own, it's the worst option if you want to contribute directly (i.e. actually killing enemies instead of buffing your allies or applying CC or debuffs) in battle.

Well. Sort of.

In 5e you have people who set up and people who spike the ball. Bard is set up. But the people who spike benefit vastly from having someone who can set up.

So you're correct that Bards don't "actually kill" enemies, but a Bard vastly increases the opportunities for the rest of the team to "actually kill" the enemies. You just need a team who knows when it's time to spike the ball. And, depending on the type of player you are, doing the set up can feel more tactically rewarding than spiking. The set up decides the pace of the battle, the spiker reacts to it.

I only mention this because the first part of your post, "Lore bard is great out of combat" sort of implies that they aren't great in combat even if that wasn't your intent.

Anyhow, carry on. If I was looking for a way to throw some effective damage onto a Lore Bard via either Fighter or Warlock, I would pick Warlock. I would probably go with Celestial Warlock for effectively two free Healing Word casts and a couple free cantrips.

[Expired]

Playing around with a Lore Bard build for a face PC but want to boost combat slightly more for “when push comes to shove” situations and minimizing spell loss for Lore Bard.

The real question is Fighter or Warlock and for a one (preferred) or two (if needed) level dip?
I suggest a two-level dip into Hexblade Warlock for Eldritch Blast (Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast), medium armor proficiency (requires a minimum of 14 Dex), shield proficiency (a shield is more useful than a melee weapon to a Bard, and even then, you can take War Caster later to wield both), Hex Warrior to attack in melee using Cha (should you ever be within 5ft of an enemy), and Hexblade's Curse.


At first level as a variant human that would work but could you please just stick to answering my question? There is a tendency on this forum to ignore the question asked and swan off into answering a question that was not asked.
Even if the question was not asked, it doesn't invalidate the answer as long as the information is relevant. Their suggestion to choose Magic Initiate for Sorcerer (or Warlock) cantrips/spells is useful advice, especially considering that it doesn't require multiclassing. It's foolish to narrow the scope of your question too much and not even consider other options.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm currently playing a lore bard with one level of life domain cleric, which grants heavy armor proficiency without losing spellcasting at all. I also have shield mastery and a decent strength so I typically grapple then shove prone an important opponent, then either kick (unarmed strike) that opponent and shove another one, or use a verbal-only spell like command, dissonant whispers, or vicious mockery.

[RSP]

Lore Bard is one of the best options in the game. It’s only weakness is it doesn’t have a solid damage option, aside from whatever you pick up with Magical Secrets.

If you just want more damage, you can either grab EB with Additional Magic Secrets at level 6, use an ASI on grabbing it and other spells via Magic Initiate (Warlock), or, if you don’t mind delaying Lore levels, take a 2-level dip in Warlock.

Personally, I don’t play a Lore Bard if I’m worried about damage. That said, taking the 2 levels of Warlock essentially makes you the best ranged combatant in the game (EB with AB and RB as invocations), and gives you two SR 1st level slots. It also allows you to grab the Rod of the Pact Master, which increases the DC of Warlock spells, as well as your spell attack to-hit. Ask your DM, but I think Crawford put out a definition at one point that said “any spell on a particular list counts as that class’s spell.” So, any Bard spell that overlaps with the Warlock list would also count as a Warlock spell and get the +X to DC from the Rod.

I don’t see any reason to take a dip in Fighter.

[HPisBS]

Lore Bard is Best Bard. I'd advise against multi-classing out of it. Delays to your spellcasting progression hurts. The sooner you get to that next tier - and with it, Hypnotic Pattern, or Polymorph and G. Invisibility, or Animate Objects, etc - the sooner you unlock a whole new level of power.

- Speaking of which, each of those Bard spells adds a huge amount to your effectiveness in combat. Tack on the blasting potential of something like Spiritual Weapon or Spirit Guardians with your lvl 6 Magical Secrets, followed by Telekinesis, Destructive Wave, etc at lvl 10, and there's really no reason a pure Lore Bard couldn't dish out plenty of damage on his own. The sooner you get there, the more powerful you'll feel.

But if you're dead set on dipping Fighter or Warlock, then I'd definitely say Warlock. Short Rest spells + EB helps you keep up your casting throughout the day, which mitigates the lost Bard progression. I think Great Old One is a decent fit for Bards, what with the SR Dissonant Whispers and 1-way telepathy (effectively, a free, subtle Message).

If you're dead set on dipping, but not necessarily Fighter / Warlock, then I'd suggest Rogue instead, assuming you have the dex for it. An extra 1d6 via Sneak Attack isn't that large of a buff to your mundane combat ability, but the extra expertise lets you be that much more of a total skill-monkey. And with a 2nd level dip, you get to hide, disengage, etc every turn. Rogue archery is awesome, and may help you avoid some enemies' gimp the mage instincts.

[LudicSavant]

Lore Bard is already one of the strongest classes in combat when optimized. Its single class progression is excellent, and it takes a lot to be worth delaying it. That said, if you want to dip something, the best dip from an optimization perspective is probably sigh Hexblade. Of course it's Hexblade.

Armor of Agathys combos very well with your ability to cut damage as a reaction, getting medium armor + shield + Shield spell means you are now tanky, and you get access to some real damage cantrips, all for just one level. You can even get a decent melee attack in the form of a Cha-SAD Booming Blade, with Hexblade's Curse thrown in as a cherry on top. And you get a regenerating level 1 spell slot.

Fighter 1 basically just gives you inferior benefits to Hexblade 1; pretty much the best Fighting Style for you will be Defense and it pales in comparison to the benefits of Lore + Agathys and/or Shield. You basically need to go two levels to get something worthwhile out of it (Action Surge) which will allow you to nova a little harder, but you'll delay your powerful Lore Bard progression in exchange.

[Skylivedk]

Not really. Lore bard is great out of combat, but on its own, it's the worst option if you want to contribute directly (i.e. actually killing enemies instead of buffing your allies or applying CC or debuffs) in battle.

Disagree. A lore bard is extremely strong in combat. True, it's even better if you don't focus on killing things, but due to magical secrets, the lore bard will do pretty well in that category as well. If you are primarily concerned with dealing damage, I'd recommend something else, but generally speaking lore bard can handle it as well with a little help from some magical secrets, animated objects etc.


Lore Bard is one of the best options in the game. It’s only weakness is it doesn’t have a solid damage option, aside from whatever you pick up with Magical Secrets.

If you just want more damage, you can either grab EB with Additional Magic Secrets at level 6, use an ASI on grabbing it and other spells via Magic Initiate (Warlock), or, if you don’t mind delaying Lore levels, take a 2-level dip in Warlock.

Personally, I don’t play a Lore Bard if I’m worried about damage. That said, taking the 2 levels of Warlock essentially makes you the best ranged combatant in the game (EB with AB and RB as invocations), and gives you two SR 1st level slots. It also allows you to grab the Rod of the Pact Master, which increases the DC of Warlock spells, as well as your spell attack to-hit. Ask your DM, but I think Crawford put out a definition at one point that said “any spell on a particular list counts as that class’s spell.” So, any Bard spell that overlaps with the Warlock list would also count as a Warlock spell and get the +X to DC from the Rod.

I don’t see any reason to take a dip in Fighter.

I'm playing with a player who chose to use one of his magical secrets on EB. It still hurts me to look at his stat sheet and I've permanently reranked the player in my inner ladder. Please don't use a magical secrets to get EB. It's very much not worth the very minor damage bump.

[Ganryu]

Ohohoho.

Magical secrets has you covered, but my answer is warlock.

You don't want to raise your AC. Oh no. You want to steal from the warlock for a spell that benefits you getting hurt.

Armor of @#$@'ing Agythis.
https://www.dnd-spells.com/spell/armor-of-agathys

This is much better on a bard than a warlock.

Now, cutting words.
Cutting Words
Also at 3rd level, you learn how to use your wit to distract, confuse, and otherwise sap the confidence and competence of others. When a creature that you can see within 60 feet of you makes an attack roll, an ability check, or a damage roll, you can use your reaction to expend one of your uses of Bardic Inspiration, rolling a Bardic Inspiration die and subtracting the number rolled from the creature's roll. You can choose to use this feature after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll or ability check succeeds or fails, or before the creature deals its damage. The creature is immune if it can't hear you or if it's immune to being charmed.

----------------------
Put the two together. You get hurt, they die.

I've seen an combat straight up ended because the enemy multi-attacked someone with this up.

6th level, 30 damage a pop. They hit 3 times. The bard was hurt, yes, but the enemy just took 90 damage with no roll, no save.

[RSP]

Armor of @#$@'ing Agythis.
https://www.dnd-spells.com/spell/armor-of-agathys


AoA isn’t a bad spell, but I’d not waste a MS from a Lore Bard on it (perhaps Sword or Valor). Lore isn’t meant to be in the frontline, first off.

Second, that 30 tHP as a level 6 spell could be Tenser’s Transformation, which will do so much more for you, if wanting to be in the frontline.

Plus, once you’re casting 6th level spells, you’re fighting things that can hit for 30+. And unfortunately, a lot of times the damage comes from ranged attacks or AoEs, which nullify the retribution damage.

There’s better ways to go, both with using your MS selections and using your Cutting Words.

[Dork_Forge]

AoA isn’t a bad spell, but I’d not waste a MS from a Lore Bard on it (perhaps Sword or Valor). Lore isn’t meant to be in the frontline, first off.

Second, that 30 tHP as a level 6 spell could be Tenser’s Transformation, which will do so much more for you, if wanting to be in the frontline.

Plus, once you’re casting 6th level spells, you’re fighting things that can hit for 30+. And unfortunately, a lot of times the damage comes from ranged attacks or AoEs, which nullify the retribution damage.

There’s better ways to go, both with using your MS selections and using your Cutting Words.

I think they were saying to take AoA on a Warlock dip, not use MS on it.

Though I will throw in your suggestion is flawed, straight Bards get 6th level spells at 11th level, but they don't get MS until 14th level and Tenser's Transformation isn't a Bard spell.

[LudicSavant]

The notion that Lore Bards are weak in combat is a wrong one. Let's look at some of the options on the Bard spell list.

At level 1:
- Thunderwave, one of the best level 1 AoEs.
- Dissonant Whispers, one of the best level 1 single target damage spells (3d6 psychic/save for half is alright damage, but fantastic when combined with all the opportunity attack provocations). It also stays relevant throughout the game (because OA damage scales, especially if you've got things like Rogues or Warcasters in your party).
- Healing Word, an essential service for popping people up off the death gate.
- Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Silent Image, Sleep, and Unseen Servant.

At level 2:
- Shatter is one of the best level 2 direct damage AoEs.
- Phantasmal Force, Hold Person, and Suggestion are big save threats. Heat Metal is good but only against certain enemy types.
- Silence can really ruin a mage's day, so long as you can keep them in the area.
- Cloud of Daggers is a potent combo tool for certain parties and strategies.
- Pyrotechnics is like a Fog Cloud that doesn't need your Concentration.
- Lesser Restoration is very important for someone in your party to have.

At level 3:
- Hypnotic Pattern can just sort of remove entire groups from a fight.
- Plant Growth is a massive area, extremely effective CC that doesn't even take Concentration. The only thing holding this spell back is that it doesn't work in all environments.
- Dispel Magic.

Also, at this point you get Magical Secrets, at which point you have the pick of whatever bloody spells you like. Want Spirit Guardians or Fireball or Find Steed or Counterspell or Conjure Animals? You got it.

At level 4:
- Greater Invisibility and Polymorph are top shelf combat spells. What else do I need to say here?

At level 5:
- Animate Objects does fantastic damage and some area denial too.
- Synaptic Static is an excellent blast/debuff combo that doesn't eat Concentration.
- Awaken, Dominate, Hold Monster, Greater Restoration, and Scrying all are here.

And here we get Magical Secrets again, taking our pick of any spells in the game.

And so on and so forth all the way through to high levels. We even start getting things like Contingency and Simulacrum and such (thanks to yet more Magical Secrets).

What about your class features? Well all of those are bloody great too. Cutting Words, Jack of All Trades, Peerless Skill, Extra Magical Secrets, and Bardic Inspiration are all excellent in combat. (Don't forget Peerless Skill and Jack of All Trades can boost your initiative).

At what point in this progression does a Bard suck at combat?

The answer: At no point.

If a Bard sucks at combat, it's a result of the player's choices, not because the class itself is inherently bad at it.

[Keravath]

Hexblade. 2 Levels. Variant human. Devils sight + agonizing blast.

I have a level 15 character ... 13 lore bard/2 hexblade. They have been great fun to play. Started with 3 lore bard/2 hexblade. Level 6 was the most challenging but I just used agonizing blast for damage and shatter for AoE. Blindnees/Suggestion/Phantasmal force are other good second level spells.

Hexblade - medium armor + shield + martial weapon prof + charisma for weapon use. However, you will never use a weapon. Agonizing blast scales with level and outdamages any weapon options you will ever have. Hexblade also give the hex and shield spells. Hexblade curse is just icing on the cake if you find yourself needing to focus on damage. It has happened to me.

Bards have a lot of very useful concentration spells. However, agonizing blast is MUCH better than vicious mockery on the turns when you don't want to burn a spell slot. In addition, against magic resistant creatures and other challenges you can always pull out hex+agonizing blast if you need it.

Warlock also adds two short rest first level spell slots.

Anyway, two levels of hexblade brings far more to the table than two levels of fighter for a bard in my opinion.

[Benny89]

For me one of the best builds in game is 2 Hexblade/18 Lore Bard.

Progression is:

1. start 1 Hexblade so you already start strong with Hex + EB + Curse + SAD CHA weapon attacks. Roll of equipment gold to start with Scale Male and shield. 18 AC start. Very good 1st level.

2. Now you want to rush to level 6 Lore Bard and pick up spells that will scale well till the end of the game: counterspell is the obvious choice on level 6. Now for the second I always pick Conjure Animals or Spiritual Weapon. Conjure Animals is most versitile CC and damage spell in game, shifting action economy to your favour. Spiritual Weapon is great if you already have Druid in party because it combos super well with Hex/Curse + Agonizing Blast spam.

Conjure Animals also combo superb with Dissonant Whisper, provoking tons of OAs from your animals when they surround targets.

People also like Fireball, but I find this spell "too limited". It's cast and forget and slot is gone. Meanwhile CA deals tons of damage, tank tons of damage for party and CC targets throughout multiple rounds in combat. Don't worry if enemies attack your animals- each attack in them is one attack less on your and your party!

If they try to fireball them? Just counterspell, you are best at it anyway.

3. Now you want second level of Warlock for Repelling and Agonizing Blast. Reason we waited till level 7 is because Agonizing Blast is not really priority till you get second beam (level 5) and it's better by then to rush for Magic Secrets. Now you have great DPR every turn + control via Repelling Blast. You can push enemies back to your conjured animals, away from your Booming Blade Rogue or party caster. And you can Dissonant Whisper surrounded enemies to provoke tons of Extra damage.

For example enemy surrounded by 8 Velociraptors (all attacks with advantage) will take 8 x (1d6 + 1d4 + 4) = 80 damage. Dissonant Whisper in your turn will deal extra 3d6 damage plus provoke OA from all raptors dealing bonus 8x (1d6 + 2) damage = 54,5.

You just dealt 134,5 damage on level 7.

4. My next favourite spell on Lore Bard is Telekinesis, making it best save or suck spell in game vs Legendary Resistance enemies. More infor on full combo here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?609634-Lore-Bard-Telekinesis-the-ultimate-Save-or-Suck-spell-vs-Legendary-Resistance

Short: you can Restrain hold in place any boss in the game that is not Gargantual. Which considering why Leg. Resistance was added in 5e - is huge.

5. Taking that Telekinesis, I love to also grab Simulacrium + Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall. Prismatic Wall is great because it's non-conentration. So in combat:

a) Vs many strong enemies place Prismatic Wall horizontally and make your sim cast Reverse Gravity so they fly up through layers of PW and and after some time let them fall through all PW layers.

b) Vs boss - Telekinesis Boss and let Sim place Prismatic Wall. Then each turn just push/pull Boss through Prismatic Wall.

Then obviously Wish.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Playing around with a Lore Bard build for a face PC but want to boost combat slightly more for “when push comes to shove” situations and minimizing spell loss for Lore Bard.

The real question is Fighter or Warlock and for a one (preferred) or two (if needed) level dip?

No dips until the 3rd magical secrets for best combat value!

Race to your favorite of conjure animals, Counterspell, conjure woodland beings, animate objects.

I'd say take 2 of the 3 between the Conjures and Animate Objects but the chance to have objects the size of elephants do things has some utility.

Combined with Dissonant Whispers these are soo powerful your DM will try to figure out how to nerf them.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Not really. Lore bard is great out of combat, but on its own, it's the worst option if you want to contribute directly (i.e. actually killing enemies instead of buffing your allies or applying CC or debuffs) in battle.

Alone, maybe. And Bards do need to be aware of the likely saves of what they are dighting.

In martial battles after the other classes get some 2nd attacks and bonuses even high Dex Lore Bards fall behind in sword swinging.

In a party with Level 1 Dissonant Whispers causing opportunity attacks Lore Bards are vicious.

Ever cast Fear and chase giants?

Have you seen the threads about how powerful Phantasmal Force is?

Getting Pixies from Woodland Beings is ridiculously cool. Makes up for some martial being able to just swing the same sword th same way for 12 months of straight combat.

Healing Word is argued to be near broken for yo yo healing abilities.

Cutting Words is strong and fun.

Your Magical Secret choices can be key. Pick a couple which combine well with Dissonant Whispers.

I will agree Bards need to set up their combats for best effect. Does no good to lose Concentration for example.

Sometimes I joke also about my lack of D20 rolls if I'm not conjuring.

[Ashrym]

To answer the question: warlock is a better dip.

To give my 2 cp...

I also am not a fan of delays in leveling bard abilities for a splash. A one level splash isn't too bad but two levels is a bigger delay, an ASI, and a couple high level spell slots if the campaign gets that high.

I also believe lore bards are good in combat. They are not great at damage on their own but can enable a lot of damage. If a person wanted more direct damage then going swords or valor for extra attack makes more sense.

Secrets for eldritch blast isn't much of a payoff for damage, but I have had fun with lore starting vuman for moderately armored, picking up booming blade or greenflame blade and shillelagh at 6th, and shield at 10th for more of a physical combat style. Dissonant whispers and using the cantrip through a feat makes that particular combo fun.

Whatever you do, just don't forget that being squishy is a bigger issue than damage. Poor AC and defensive spells tend to be more an issue than damage. Cutting words helps in a pinch but it's too limited a resource to rely on and costs buffing party members who can also use bardic inspiration.

[NorthernPhoenix]

Picking up either firebolt or eldrich blast, and then later fireball is more than enough for the most commonly played part of the game. Between that and all the buffs, heals, debuffs and crowd control you'll be mvp without ever taking the attack action or speaking the word "multiclass".