Dragon's Claws

[Segev]

This is a cantrip idea I came up with for another person's queries about making a dragon PC. I was suggesting going draconic sorcerer as the class. This is a little weaker than shilelagh, but is it serviceable?

Dragon's Claws
Transmutation Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Touch
Components: S, M (a bit of claw)
Duration: 1 minute
Your hands grow into talons which enable you to do 1d4 piercing damage with your unarmed strike, which you may use with either Strength or Dexterity. Your unarmed strikes with these talons count as magical weapon attacks.

[Garfunion]

Seem weak. The talons should be at least a d8. It should also offer the choice between strength or charisma for attacks and damage (don’t want monks to abuse it.

You should model your cantrip off of the primal savagery cantrip(Druid). This way you can use twin and quicken metamagic on it.

[Segev]

Seem weak. The talons should be at least a d8. It should also offer the choice between strength or charisma for attacks and damage (don’t want monks to abuse it.

You should model your cantrip off of the primal savagery cantrip(Druid). This way you can use twin and quicken metamagic on it.

It’s more modeled on shilelagh. I made it d4s because you can two-weapon it with a bonus action.

Should I instead make it give a multiattack option?

“Your hands grow into sharp claws.l that do not interfere with your ability to wield weapons or tools. While this spell is in effect. Your unarmed strikes gain the finesse property, do 1d4 plus your strength or dexterity modifier magical piercing damage, and you gain the option to perform a multiattack action with your claws, making two such unarmed strikes as an action.”

[Kane0]

Can you two weapon with it? They aren't light.

[Segev]

Can you two weapon with it? They aren't light.

Hm. Good point. 3.5 assumptions sneaking in.

How about with the version that gives you the multiattack option?

I have also considered having it worded such that you effectively are armed with dangers thatYou can’t throw in each empty hand.

[Onos]

If you're basing it on Shillelagh, why not just keep the d8 and the ability to use your Spellcasting Modifier instead of Str?

If you plan to include the *Finesse* property it could stand to be dropped to d6's, though you could keep the d8's if you make it Concentration (1 min).

If it's for a dragon PC, maybe throw in some scaling as well? Might be a little strong, but it's quite thematic and would be fairly balanced by having it be Concentration.

[Segev]

The use I'm picturing it being put to is mimicking a creature hitting with both claws, at least as the primary way of doing it. Yes, "you use both claws and do 1d8+casting mod damage" would be...mechanically sound, but is a little unsatisfying to me.

What I am taking from shilelagh is the idea of the casting time and duration, and maybe making it magic damage. But I intend this to be more thematically transforming your hands, not enchanting them, and more letting you fight with something more resembling physical prowess than just another spell attack that happens to be dealt with your hands, hence using unarmed strike as the basis. Adding finesse is because this was something I initially came up with when helping someone else come up with how to build a "dragon" PC, and a cantrip on the sorcerer chassis that let him get the claw attacks seemed like a good idea.

The reason I drop it to 1d4 is because I'm picturing it being done twice per round, which brings us back to 2d4 potential damage; approximately the same ballpark as 1d8. Initially, I was thinking of it as being done with two-weapon fighting, but I'd forgotten that unarmed strikes aren't technically legal for your off-hand attack. Action+bonus action for 2d4+str mod is a good place for it. Allowing dex instead of str by making it finesse would let the kobold I initially pictured this for have a more optimal, non-disadvantaged stat mod go into it.

Even then, though, needing to burn a bonus action and hit twice for it to match shilelagh is rough. But then, it's a Sorcerer spell, not a Druid spell, so maybe that's not entirely unfair.

If I have it grant multiattack, though, now it's 2 attacks on a single action, and each is adding the stat mod to damage. That actually opens it up to being stronger than shilelagh, doing 2d4+(2xMod) rather than 1d8+Mod. Keeping it tied to a physical stat means it's introducing a little bit of MAD, which may counterbalance that. Could condition the multiattack on both hands being empty.

[Garfunion]

Why would a sorcerer use their action to make an unarmed strike? When there are stronger cantrips and level (x) spells to use with metamagic? It maybe better to make this an archetype feature.

For example;
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?609177-Sorcerer-Erinyes-Bloodline-Feedback

I created this archetype with an unarmed strike and incorporated features to make use of it. For example they have access to the paladin’s smite spells.

[Segev]

Why would a sorcerer use their action to make an unarmed strike? When there are stronger cantrips and level (x) spells to use with metamagic? It maybe better to make this an archetype feature.

For example;
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?609177-Sorcerer-Erinyes-Bloodline-Feedback

I created this archetype with an unarmed strike and incorporated features to make use of it. For example they have access to the paladin’s smite spells.

Why would a sorcerer attack with a dagger?

I mean, you have a point.

The reason for this not going on a subclass is because I want it to be compatible with the Draconic Bloodline.

For even more clarity, this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610306-My-player-wants-to-be-a-full-blooded-Dragon) is what inspired me to make this, and in particular the design idea I had that was as follows:

Make an Urd by swapping wings and 30 ft. flight for Beg, Grovel and Plead. Go White Dragon Sorcerer. Take ray of frost and either an element-swapped burning hands or take ice knife, and treat both as coming from the kobold's mouth. There's your breath weapon.

I suggested a custom cantrip for it that gives him claws for 1d4 piercing damage.

This thread is an effort to take the idea for that cantrip and make it both useful for the image this concept is going for, and to make it viable as a reasonable cantrip a sorcerer might take. This is a bit of a competing set of goals, obviously, since as people have pointed out, sorcerers usually don't want to be in melee. At the same time, though, it's a bit against the fantasy to have this "magical claw attack" be rooted in Charisma (or other casting stats) rather than Strength or at least Dexterity, since its goal is to emulate actually having draconic natural weapons.


Maybe I need to up it to first level, and make it last 8 hours?

Fang and Claw
First level transmutation
Casting time: 1 action
Components: V, S
Target: Self
Duration: 8 hours
Your mouth extends into a muzzle filled with razor-sharp fangs, and your hands curl and sharpen into deadly claws. None of these alterations interfere with your ability to speak, eat, hold items, or otherwise use the affected parts of your body normally. You also gain the ability to use these in melee weapon attacks, with a reach of five feet and a target of one creature. You are proficient with them. You cannot use any one weapon (bite or either claw) more than once per round, and the hand making a claw attack must be otherwise empty. The attacks can use either your Strength or Dexterity for your attack and damage rolls, and do 1d8 magic piercing damage. If you make an attack on your action, you may use one of these weapon attacks as a bonus action.

[Onos]

* yoink *


Okay cool, I see where you're coming from. In that case how about "1d4 piercing/slashing damage, you may use your Con modifier in place of Str, can make an Attack as a Bonus Action if you've already done so with your Action or cast a spell. You may only make multiple Attacks if both hands are empty."

EDIT: Sure, you could beef it up as a scalable spell or something, but it's quite well suited to being a cantrip imo.

[Segev]

Okay cool, I see where you're coming from. In that case how about "1d4 piercing/slashing damage, you may use your Con modifier in place of Str, can make an Attack as a Bonus Action if you've already done so with your Action or cast a spell. You may only make multiple Attacks if both hands are empty."

EDIT: Sure, you could beef it up as a scalable spell or something, but it's quite well suited to being a cantrip imo.

Sounds like a good basis. Why Con, though?

[Onos]

Con's kinda thematic for a dragon, right?

Really just personal preference for how I work through these sorts of things in my typical home canon. As a spell I'd naturally go to "spellcasting mod", but if that's discarded for whatever reason my next layer is spell school. As a transmutation I'd go for Con next, with the flavour being "the more of a transformation you can handle, the better the claws/tentacles/improved ears are able to function." Mechanically speaking, there's nothing wrong with Dex if you'd rather.

[Segev]

I'm thinking "strength or dex" because that's what 'natural weapon attacks' typically use in monster stat blocks. I'd just go "Strength" if this weren't initially inspired for a kobold, probably.

[Garfunion]

Why would a sorcerer attack with a dagger?

Smite spells need a melee weapon attack, unarmed strikes are a melee weapon attack.