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loki_ragnarock
2020-04-14, 12:13 AM
(What follows is something very much too long that I didn't want to derail a different thread with.)

Inspired by a thread where people were complaining off hand about how throwing builds weren’t possible in 5e, I have been considering the possibility over the past several days in the background of my mind. A character that does nothing but throw things is a bit superfluous; there’s nothing they can do that a person with a bow can’t do better. So if that’s the fantasy your after, just refluff the bow as “your arms” and “throw” using arrows. Suddenly, you’ll find a person “throwing” with equal efficacy as the person with a bow, with just a small refluff. Being disarmed is taking a blow to the funny bone, and the like. So long as everyone makes the gentleman’s agreement to envision it as a flick of the wrist, you’re all good for perfect parity.

But while that allows for someone who wants the image of someone throwing, it doesn’t meaningfully depict the way throwing works mechanically nor does it closely correlate with historical applications of thrown weapons. A thrown weapon isn’t the realm of artillery, but the realm of skirmishers. It’s the opening volley before being engaged in melee. That is actually doable (provided there was no stealth errata), but it’s a bit more involved than simple refluffing. It’s made more complicated by the ungodly navigating of the opaque terminology of melee-weapon attack, attack with a melee weapon, and melee weapon attack, etc, but for the most part I’m going to just read the text and think about what generally makes sense in the moment. The fine toothed comb required to parse those phrases and their meaning and intent will largely be ignored here, except in those instances where it’s clear cut when reading the text or the errata document.

There are a couple of issues that must be overcome to make throwing weapons more feasible. It would behoove us to take a moment to identify the challenges present for those seeking to throw weapons:
1. Lack of Action Economy.
Throwing a weapon requires you to be able to draw as many weapons as you plan to throw, and your typically limited to one object interaction per turn. Thus it does not play well with extra attack.
2. Lack of Feat Support.
There is no specific throwing feat to support someone hurling their way to victory. Sharpshooter is incompatible with most thrown weapons, and it’s the closest thing. Dual Wielder can, what, let you throw two spears at best? There isn’t any feat that checks all boxes for a character dedicated to throwing.
3. Lack of Class Feature Support
There’s no class feature that focus on throwing things. No fighting style, no subclass, nada. The archery style doesn’t support most thrown weapons, as they’re actually melee weapons. Dueling might apply to most ranged weapons. Two-Weapon Fighting would be useful, were it not for the constrictions of the action economy for getting new weapons into your hands. Throwing is an itch that isn’t well scratched.
4. “Ah, only Porthos could find a new way to disarm himself.”
A weapon thrown is a weapon not wielded, and no one wants to be disarmed on the battlefield. Which is just what you’ve done, you rube! The Porthos Problem is a very real concern for someone looking to hurl weapons in D&D.

With all that stacked up against it, it’s no wonder that people assume that it’s an impossible hill to climb. But I would like to make the case that there is a way to scale it, maybe even a few ways.

A solution appears in the humble, oft overlooked dart. While statistically similar to the dagger, has a couple of properties that distinguish it from it’s melee cousin. One important distinction is that the dart isn’t a “light” weapon, while the dagger is so tagged. The most easily recognized difference, however, is that the dart is a ranged weapon, rather than a melee weapon. And yet, as a ranged weapon, the dart distinguishes itself from all other ranged weapons (save the net, a weapon maligned and misunderstood) by lacking the “ammunition” tag. The dart exists as an edge case in 5e, straddling the line between melee weapon and ranged weapon because of that specific distinction.

As for why this weapon selection is important, let’s look at a couple of pages of the PHB. Stay with me for the journey if you want, or skip the spoiler buttons to the sum up.

I’m not reprinting the text here. But most of what you need to note is on this page. Namely, the Ranged Attack section; you get disadvantaged when making *ranged attacks,* not attacks with a *ranged weapon*. Similarly, the Opportunity Attack section: you may make a *melee attack* under the circumstances, not an attack with a *melee weapon*.
The ammunition property is described on both of these pages. On 146, it describes why ranged weapons with this tag kick booty; drawing ammunition is part of the attack used to fire it. This is what allows for the seamless action economy for most ranged weapons. But page 147 illustrates the drawback; when using a weapon with this property to make a melee attack, you treat it as an improvised weapon.
It’s important to note these because there is an assumption on the part of many people that using a ranged weapon in melee leads to disadvantage, while the actual distinctions are more fine grained than that. But the ammunition tag is an example of how the specific beats the general; in general, you can make melee attacks with a ranged weapon without any problems. The ammunition tag is what makes that a sub-optimal decision most of the time.
Thus, if you try to throw a dart (making a ranged attack) while engaged with an opponent, you’ll have disadvantage on the attack. But if you try to stab with a dart (making a melee attack), you resolve it like a normal attack. Coincidentally, this is also true for nets; try to throw it (making a ranged attack) while engaged with an opponent results in disadvantage… and given the range increment, that seems like it’s built in. But trying to drape the net (make a melee attack) doesn’t result in disadvantage and resolves as a normal attack.
Why they felt the need to bury this under the ammunition tag – a tag almost universally applied to ranged weapons – instead of making it a general rule for ranged weapons and creating a tag to exempt the net and the dart is a bit of a clunky decision, but one that explains the widespread misunderstanding as to how these rules interact. The ubiquity of the ammunition tag leads to people assuming that it’s a general rule for ranged weapons that you get disadvantage when engaged.

Clarifying the way the rules interact here seems necessary not just because of how often they’re misunderstood, but because it lets us fully appreciate the unique characteristics of the dart.

1. It’s the only ranged weapon that you can use strength or dexterity with.
2. It’s the only ranged weapon that you can effectively use to make melee attacks with to deal damage.
3. It’s the only ranged weapon that allows you to effectively benefit from opportunity attacks.

As a result, there are some… wonky rules interactions that are actually helpful for building your thrower, and some that are less helpful. It’s an edge case, and that edge can cut both ways.

For instance, now you’ve got a class feature that’s helpful. The archery fighting style gives you a +2 bonus to hit when using ranged weapons. Not using ranged weapons to make ranged attacks, but a flat +2 bonus to using ranged weapons. Combined with the dart, you now have what is likely to be the highest non-magic enhanced melee to hit bonus out there. Congratulations; you are living the switch hitter dream.

It also lends itself to being able to benefit from an actual feat. With a dart, you can use every bullet point of Sharpshooter. Hurrah!

But… you also don’t get every bullet point of Sharpshooter when you’re using a dart to stab someone. And there’s the rub. The specificity of being a ranged weapon means that it interacts with other feats in less positive ways, meaning that you’re always in a state of compromise as you straddle the line. For instance, say you were to take Sentinel; you could only benefit from the first two points while using a dart to make melee attacks, as the third point specifies a “melee weapon attack” rather than a melee attack. If you take Dual-Wielder, then the last point lets you draw more than one weapon (YAY!), but the first two points can’t benefit a person using darts; they, too, specify melee weapons… as does two weapon fighting in general. Yikes.

So the dart isn’t a panacea, but it is an angle. How to exploit that angle?

There isn’t a great way to get around the action economy problems. The limited number of objects you can interact with will always put a hard cap on the number of attacks you can make while throwing, which leads to two conclusions. The first is that you are best served by something that puts the most possible effect from attacking once, either by applying status effects or dropping a lot of damage. The second is that if you are attacking more than once, you will have to supplement the throwing with melee attacks.

Let’s take a quick look at how that applies to our classes of choice

The first conclusion is best exploited by making your one throw as meaningful as possible. The easy answer is to be a rogue, as that’s their whole shtick. Between maximizing their one attack and their extensive mobility abilities, they’ve got skirmishing down. A shortbow does marginally better damage, but using darts means you also have a better capacity to take advantage of those off turn sneak attacks that rogue players salivate over.

You could also be a pact of the blade warlock of some kind and eldritch smite… but at that point your more of a spell caster than a skirmisher, and why are you throwing things instead of using eldritch blast or another attack cantrip? While you can use the chasis to make that thrower, the number of at will ranged options available sort of pale in comparison. Still, there might be an angle there.

How about the class that’s notorious for being bad at ranged attacks? That’s right, I’m talking about the Paladin. While there is nothing in the class features that explicitly call out a ranged character, their spell list has some potential, depending on how you read the spells. All of the smite spells but two work with melee weapon attacks… which lets you bypass the dart entirely and just use a daggers or javelins if you feel like. (A melee weapon that’s thrown is still a melee weapon, after all.) Branding Smite and Banishing Smite, however, work with any weapon attack, even darts and bows. Further, all of the smite spells except Burning Smite carry the potential for a debilitating status effect in addition to boosting damage, which adds weight to your thrown weapon attacks. And the rest of the paladin’s features support melee combat; between the spells for ranged support and the smites for melee, the paladin is actually a pretty compelling skirmisher. Further, general (although not universal) lack of movement powers for paladins make the case for having a handy medium ranged option more compelling; you’re only moving 25-35 ft with a move action, and being able to reach out and touch someone from further away – to let the weapon cover the ground you can’t – adds to the general capabilities of the class. The Javaladin is more viable than the common consensus would indicate.

What about rangers? Well, they’ve got the archery fighting style under their belt, which makes them good with darts at range and melee. They’ve got a spell that let’s you lock down someone at range thanks to Ensnaring Strike. Hail of Thorns lets you turn your dart into an area of effect spell, hitting several at once, and Lightning Arrow is it’s older, more mature brother. Rangers do require a little more scrutiny, as they’re more defined by their sub-classes. Beast Master isn’t great, because… we all know why. But Gloomstalker – the people’s choice - isn’t great for a thrower, as it relies on hitting with an overwhelming number of attacks; incompatible with pure throwing, but opens up an angle for skirmishing. Hunter abilities let you get a little more out of your darts; Horde Breaker combines with Hail of Thorns to really spread your damage around. Horizon Walker works well, as they can use a bonus action to pump up the damage a smidge and change damage types in a way that doesn’t occupy your concentration slots. Monster Slayer is similar, just less of a damage boost… that only takes one bonus action in a fight to set up, leaving room for other bonus actions if you have them available.
But is it surprising that a class so equipped for ranged combat would be compatible with a slightly closer ranged combat? Perhaps not.

And since paladins and rangers get their ranged enhancers through spells, bards can get them, too. Which means that we can put bards on the list of potential throwers. Unlike warlocks, bards don’t naturally get much in the way of at will cantrips that deal great damage, which means it isn’t as obviously redundant. If your looking for a primary caster who also throws wicked knives, the bard might fit the bill. They’ll still lack the melee capabilities of a true skirmishers, but it’s a different tack. Lore bard shines here, as the additional magical secrets and the relatively low level of the paladin and ranger spells that might enhance throwing couple well with the fact that they only ever get one attack.

Monks – incidentally another class that’s much maligned on the ranged front – are also quite capable throwers, especially from the angle of classic skirmishing. They are all proficient in darts, and darts are monk weapons, so they get a little extra damage. Combine with their substantial mobility, their ability to throw in some melee strikes as a bonus action, and how they’ve uniquely solved for the Porthos Problem, and you’ll find that they aren’t a bad option for a throwing character. Any type of monk can work here, really, but if you want to over-specialize, then Kensei will yield more damage from your throws than any other monk… but in that instance – and you won’t see me say that very often in this long thought - you might as well have used a bow, as much of that isn’t terribly compatible with the melee follow up. Oddly, for the throwing skirmisher, the others monk sub-classes might be more compelling to complete the image, as even the Kensei doesn’t gain a means to do truly significant damage or apply status effects at range. Even so, monks are going to be more melee focused with a ranged option, but with their extensive movement powers that option can carry some weight; no one can kite quite like a monk, and being able to do it with a little distance to avoid a locked engagement could allow a monk to solo creatures that would otherwise retaliate.

Fighters actually get too many attacks to accommodate effectively with throwing. You might be able to pull a multi-class combination, but even the mighty Action Surge can’t overcome the constraints of the action economy that comes with throwing weapons. Instead, the fighters multi-attacking shtick exacerbates it. However, if you’re looking for someone who can skirmish, the follow up melee attacks could be meaningful. And a battle master has a couple of ways to apply a status effect, or alternative ways to use attacks. Things like Commander’s Strike let you sack one of your superfluous attacks to let the rogue attack again. Goading Attack lets you force the issue with more mobile opponents, which you should be able to deal with as a switch hitter. Menacing Attack lets you nerf an opponent on the other side of the battle while you deal with the ones closer via a melee follow up. The possibilities exist to make someone who throws things with a fighter, it’s just an even harder path than most characters.

Barbarians are pretty much all melee, but if a barbarian wanted to diversify their output they could always pick up a dart. If a barbarian really wanted to lean in, they could throw darts with sharpshooter… but does that versatility come at the cost of more meaningful specialization when there are no class features that support it? Maybe. But if your looking to throw some hand axes, it’s not a bad option; melee weapons with the thrown tag are still melee weapons, and thus subject to the bonus damage from the Rage feature. Further, having a ranged option is a *big* deal for a barbarian; if all an enemy has to do to foil your best class feature is ignore and avoid you for a round, you’re screwed; it’s literally your biggest weakness. Having the option to throw a hand axe or a dagger or a javelin just might save your life.
Druids and Clerics aren’t really geared for this, with access to plenty enough cantrips for at will ranged damage. Druids especially tend to be divorced from weapon use. But… there is some potential for a multi-class with a ranger to pump up the number of available spell slots for your throwing shenanigans. It’s an angle, maybe, but generally trumped by the ability to cast real spells; an enhanced dart kinda pales next to spiritual weapon.
Even so, plenty of clerics get a once per round weapon damage boost that’s otherwise going to go to waste, and the limiting action economy of thrown weapons mean that it synergizes pretty well. But again, you could throw a dart or cast spirit guardians, so it’s a tough sell. But if you were trying to conserve your slots for healing, you could supplement your offense by chucking some darts. There might be a case to be made for an exploitable angle, but it doesn’t add that much to a clerics overall capabilities.
Sorcerer’s don’t have much incentive to futz about with throwing weapons, as they can already twin/ quicken wight hook to their heart’s content… but as a multi-class with the paladin to pump up the number of spell slots… it still has access to twin/quicken firebolts; throwing is effectively obviated. Even so, underestimating charisma based multiclassing is done at one’s peril.
Wizards… they laugh at your pitiful bits of metal. Whether its an uncomfortable laugh or a scornful one I’ll leave to interpretation.
Artificer is in a book I think I left at a friends house before we all started social distancing, and thus outside of my ability to comment on. Alas.

So there’s at least a couple of angles where you can build a throwing character, a few I wouldn’t have considered before becoming weirdly obsessed with this idea. But without providing examples I’m not really making the case. So here are some.

So, the simplest solution. Play a rogue.

The Pitch:
Cheryl the Shard Slinger is a stout halfling rogue who throws things. As someone who mostly hits up dungeons for loot instead of acting as battlefield artillery, having the ability to fall back on her trusty “throwing daggers” (darts) are all she needs. After all, how many corridors in these old dungeons go much farther than 60ft before bending? She’s not a big fan of wilderness adventures, but everyone has their least favorite kind, right? She’s generally pretty well rounded, but she’s also disconcertingly aggressive when she wants to be.
Point Buy:
S:12 D:16 C:14 I:10 W:14 Ch:10
Levels 1-2: Sneak Attack. Cunning Action.
Cheryl actually plays like normal rogues, though she has other options when she wants. The hit and run tactics of a typical low level rogue are perfectly viable, and generally plays the same with a dart as it would with a shortbow. However, with a dart Cheryl has the option of hurling a dart and running away, or hurling a dart and moving to engage the enemy in the hopes of locking them down. Right now its a bit of a risky maneuver, but sometimes you’ve got to put yourself on the line for your friends. And she gets a bit of a kick out of those times when things do draw the attack of opportunity for that second sneak attack in a round. She doesn’t do this every round of every combat – she’s a fragile halfling after all – but sometimes it’s the only way to keep a friend from dying.
Level 3: Mastermind.
So Cheryl isn’t looking to be a hit and run artist forever, and having an alternative use for that bonus action means she isn’t stuck using it on abilities that allow her to duck away from a fight. Now, she’s a force multiplier, making the people around her awesome on the regular.
Level 4: Sharpshooter.
Now she gets to ignore most of the penalties for throwing that dart. And if she’s confident that she can really crank out a shot, she can add the equivalent of 2 and a half extra sneak attack dice. She’s leaning into her roll here, still mostly playing the same game as a rogue with a shortbow, with the occasional foray into melee as needed.
Level 5: Uncanny Dodge.
Now she can actually feel comfortable getting in close for melee. With a built in ability to mitigate damage, she’s able to pull of that switch hitter role better, throwing a dart before closing in to lock down an enemy’s options. She’s still not a fighter; she won’t be tanking every enemy in the encounter at once. But she is able to get into where she needs to be thanks to her extensive movement powers, and able to provide that melee support zone of control that a bow user simply can’t.
Level 6-7: Basically more of the same.
Level 8: Sentinel.
Cheryl just changed her playstyle substantially. Every round, she pulls a dart as her object interaction, throws a dart with her attack action. That part is the same. But now, she keeps a short sword in her left hand. She’s not a two weapon fighter. Instead, she waits until her foe’s turn and uses her short sword to punish them for standing next to her. If they attack someone other than her, she gets to hit them. If they try to move away, she gets to hit them and stop them. Getting next to things isn’t a sometimes thing; it’s an always thing. And since she can effectively prevent baddies from hitting her friends simply by also being adjacent, she’s now way more likely to generate those off turn sneak attacks. And just in time, because level 8 is about the time she’s become durable enough to survive the back and forth slugging that’s become her bread and butter. She’s in a good position to effectively double her damage output most rounds, and I’d like to see the bow user who can claim that.
Level 10: ASI.
Dex +2. Hey, it’s gotta happen eventually.
Level 12: Mage Slayer.
Cheryl just picked a feat a lot of people hate, but she did so because her new playstyle can benefit from it pretty well. A new way to trigger an attack off turn means more opportunities for off turn sneak attacks. The weight of a sneak attack already has the potential to produce some high concentration DCs, and being able to force disadvantage on those effects can actually change the flow of some encounters. It basically supports that more aggressive, in your face style she’s been cultivating the past couple of levels.
Level 13: Misdirection.
Cheryl gets into melee a lot these days. If she’s clever about her positioning – something she’s more than capable of supplementing with her movement abilities – she can shift blows to the enemy. Even better than Uncanny Dodge, and who says that Sharpshooter means you never need to consider cover?
Level 14: Blind Sense.
A throw away feature for someone with a bow due to it’s short range, this is a maximum pressure tactic for someone who can turn to melee on a dime. The days of invisibility canceling her sneak attack are over.
Level 16: ASI.
Dex +2. With her primary stat maxed out and her defining tactics set up, she’s fully equipped and able.
Level 17+: More of the same, really
Cheryl has abilities and a unique play style that – while idiosyncratic – isn’t awful. She has a lot more potential for damage than a typical bow rogue, but that damage is likely going to be spread around the battlefield and does leave her in a more vulnerable position than most ranged rogues. But being able to substantially differentiate yourself from the other, more popular for of combat is part of what makes it fun. We aren’t going for full metal optimized here, so there’s probably room for improvement in that regard, just using Cheryl to demonstrate the viability. While she takes a fairly long time to hit her full stride, she does hit it pretty hard once she does. And frankly, it’s in a way that doesn’t feel forced; she’s basically fighting the same way she has since level 1, just with increasing effectiveness as time goes by. She learns, she grows.

But for something more challenging, here comes:


The Pitch:
Sir Johnathan thought long and hard about the creators using the phrase “melee weapon attack” and came to the conclusion that he can use a throw a javelin and smite, since it’s a melee weapon and he’s attacking with it. The gods agreed, admitting that the creators should have used more precise language when trying to produce a fine grained system and that - consulting the divinely inspired original text and the errata document that fails to explicitly stipulate that it doesn’t work or otherwise change the language to make it clear - its a perfectly valid combination. Also, look at him. His hair is amazing. He’s a dragon-born in a toupee, but he carries it off with such gravitas that nobody really questions it.
Point Buy:
S:16 D:8 C:14 I:10 W:10 Ch:16
Level 1:
Just make it through John, I believe in you. Your choice of a javelin and shield are flavorful, and your glittering starting chain mail will hopefully carry you through to the next couple of levels.
Level 2: Fighting Style. Divine Smite.
Now John call take dueling style to make his javelins punch a little harder when thrown or thrust, as they are one handed melee weapons. Divine Smite also supplements for big hits, but that’s not what John is focused on. He’s focused on the bonus action casting of Wrathful Smite and using his javelin – a melee weapon - to throw down some awe from afah. And since the frightened condition means that the enemy can’t approach him, being able to put it into action from 30ft away carries a distinct advantage when he can keep pelting them with javelins round after round. Or more likely, locking one enemy out of combat while dealing with the others with close quarters thrusts. If the enemy is a paladin foe or if the enemy is immune to fear, he has divine smite to fall back on… but for the most part, this single spell produces everything he could want for controlling the battlefield.
Level 3: Conquest. Since John is going to be relying on the fear effect for most of his career, and since it synergizes so well with ranged combat, he’s going with the scariest paladin variety of all. Conquering Presence lets him burn a channel divinity to sit back and pop distant creatures at his leisure.
Level 4: Dual-Wielder. Wait, what?! Yeah, dual wielder; since Sir John is using melee weapons to make his ranged attacks, he gets the benefit of every bullet point. He’s only a single point down on AC vs a shield, and now he can throw two javelins a round via two weapon fighting. Also, now that a single object interaction can result in two weapons in his hand, he’s covered for those two attacks. “But won’t dueling style be rendered moot,” some might ask. Not really, as this combination serves to actually take *advantage of the Porthos Problem.* By throwing his first javelin, his hand is now empty; while that first javelin can’t benefit from the dueling style, it means that the second can. If he’s thrown away his weapon, he clearly isn’t wielding another weapon in his off hand, so the second weapon gains the +2 to damage as normal. And then, a single object interaction gets him prepped for the next round. For now, the extra damage derived from the second weapon will mostly come from divine smites, but it does serve as a way to step up in the rounds when he really needs to burn down a baddy.
Level 5: Extra Attack. And here we hit upon the difficulties of the action economy. Since this was largely addressed by Dual-Wielder and Paladins never get another attack (well, not for a long time), good old John is able to throw two javelins in a round, draw back up, and follow up with a bonus action melee attack. It’s from here that John is going to have to commit to being a switch hitter, as at least some of those attacks are going to have to melee based. The attack pattern while throwing would look like this if focused only on throwing: Round One: two javelins in hand, throw javelin one, throw javelin two, draw two, throw javelin three as a bonus action, javelin four in hand for any opportunity attacks. Round Two: One javelin in hand, throw javelin four, draw two, throw javelin five, throw javelin six, unarmed. Round Three: Unarmed, draw two, throw javelin seven, throw javelin eight, unarmed. Round 4-X: Repeat round three.
Throwing javelins is able to keep up the pressure until about round three, sure. But mixing up with melee attacks by round two means he’s able to sustain the pace of attacks without a problem, and he’s still a plate clad paladin more than suitable for mixing it up in melee. Likewise, substituting a bonus action to cast Wrathful Smite in the first round delays the point where your ability to draw javelins starts getting in the way of your ability to throw them. Which is to say, he could easily sustain three rounds of peak javelin if he opens with a wrathful smite, and most combats should be over after three rounds of a paladin gunning down targets at full speed. One instance of extra attack is the sweet spot for throwing weapons; any more gums up the works.
Level 6: Aura of Protection.
You know it, you love it. He has it, but unlike most paladins who have to decide to cover allies in a protective aura or engage the enemy, Sir John can do both at the same time.
Level 7: Aura of Conquest.
So long as the target doesn’t have reach, he can stand within 10ft of them to ensure they can neither run away nor towards him and casually pelt them with javelins. That’s just nasty, but even nastier when it expands to 30ft in the late game and eliminates even creatures with reach from being a problem he can’t whittle away.
Level 8: ASI.
+2 Cha or +2 Str. Either is a valid option; save DCs are actualy pretty important for John. Though I’d lean strength first and alternate on level up.
Level 10: Aura of Courage.
He’s now so scary that his allies can’t even feel fear anymore. Bitchin.
Level 11: Improved Divine Smite.
John can make even a basic flurry of javelins hurt, even the bonus action attacks. That’s nothing to scoff at.
Level 12: ASI.
+2 to Cha or Str. Whatever he didn’t grab last time, he grabs this time.
Level 13+: The Breakpoint.
Sir John, devotee of the javelin, quarterback of the battlefield, and haver of hair, must now decide how to proceed. He could keep being a paladin and stick with it for the full run to gain the sweet boon of those level 18 auras, Banishing Smite, and enough ASIs to pump his cha and str to a full 20. And there’s nothing wrong with that.
Alternatively, he could start down the path of a bard or sorcerer, gaining critical spell slots to turn into various kinds of smites, again with enough ASIs left in one of those paths to pump his strength and charisma to 20. I’d personally lean him bard over sorcerer; most of his favorite spells aren’t really twinable or quickenable, and thus the bard brings more to the table in general. Ideally, College of Whispers; Psychic Blades using bardic inspiration for short rest smites lends additional weight to his thrown weapon attacks, and Words of Terror synergizes with the attributes already gained as a Conquest Paladin. He never gets magical secrets, but he doesn’t need them; he already has all the spells he needs to fill his niche.
Phew. Sir John is a bit of a beast, able to perform at short range and up close fairly consistently for most of his career. He’s a perfectly viable character for whom throwing features prominently. Would I have responded “Paladin” when someone asked “thrown character?” Not when I first started entertaining the idea. But now? Yeah. Paladin. Sir John will never be true artillery, but with the ability to lock down the enemy and just enough range to expand his zone of control, he never really stops being effective. Optimized? Nothing crazy. Viable? Certainly.

So a single class solution, a single class solution with a multi-class option.
Time for something gonzo. If the goal is to build the “impossible,” then why not build it in one of the stupidest ways possible?


The Pitch:
Rodrigo is a fella who has lived in the jungles for his whole adult life, drawn there by the exotic animal trade. In that time he has found that the density of the tropical forests don’t mesh well with the longer range of a bow or crossbow. When a panther or a marrow eater (anteater, but for bones) come at suddenly, you have to fight them off with what you have to hand. Rodrigo is a proponent of the throwing dart for this reason; easy to transition from ranged to melee, versatile enough for any would be woods man. Rugged, religious, and ready for adventure, he’ll see you to the other side of the jungle for the right price. And for love, he’ll see you to the other side of hell itself. The social isolation has made him… eccentric, though. He’s a variant human Ranger/Cleric, and he wears a panama hat.
Point Buy:
S:16 D:10 C:14 I:8 W:16 Ch:8
Level 1: Sharpshooter. Ranger.
This survivalist is a wonder with the dart. Less good with a bow, but that’s okay; he’s not in an environment that really rewards extreme range. It’s a little disconcerting how he can punch holes right through a person with them, though. He’s a little vulnerable in melee as he isn’t particularly quick, but he typically he tries to put a little distance between him and his enemies. When they close, his medium armor and shield help to offset the lack of quickness.
Level 2: Ranger. Fighting Style. Spellcasting. Archery fighting style for +2 to ranged and melee attacks with the dart. Nice; what he lacks in raw punch he makes up for with accuracy. And spellcasting provides him with two fairly neat options.
Option one and dearest to my heart: Ensnaring Strike. With a bonus action, your next attack can restrain an enemy *and* deal damage round after round. Restrain is a pretty dope condition in that it halts a targets movement and gives them disadvantage to attacks if you just need to control them, but grants advantage to attacks (synergizes well with Sharpshooter) if you need to burn them down. Since you can do it at range or melee with impunity thanks to the dart, you’ll always be able to give it a shot. That it does (scaling!) damage every round they can’t break the DC means that you can pile on a load of d6s without taking any precious actions to do it. Hunter’s Mark, eat your heart out.
Option two and also pretty great: Hail of Thorns. Sometimes you just want to spread around some damage. Also a bonus action to cast, clustered enemies are now vulnerable to more than just the wizard, as Rodrigo starts throwing literal grenades into the midst of his enemies. That it takes concentration and can’t be used against adjacent enemies is a mark against it… but it lets Rodrigo throw grenades by pulling the pin from his dart, so that’s a visual mark for it.
So why not take both and leave Hunter’s Mark in a ditch by the side of the road reserved for sacred cows? If you wanted to play something normal, you’d be using a short bow.
Level 3: Breakpoint.
Level 3 is complicated, and it can go in just a ton of directions. Do we stick with ranger to pick up a Primal Path, and if so which one? Do we start the Cleric dip to get things going there, and if so, what kind?
Level 3: Forge Cleric. Heavy Armor. Magic Dart. Bless.
For the purposes of Rodrigo, a born survivalist, he’s going to take the opportunity to become a Forge Cleric. He’s not a dwarf. He doesn’t even have a beard. But being able to make his own darts and fix his own armor is probably one of the most compelling reasons he has to graduate into a scion of craftsmen. There sre dangerous creatures out here, and having a magical +1 dart can be a matter of life or death. Meanwhile, he’s managed to patch himself together some heavy armor to make him more durable in those melee moments (better to protect himself from having his marrow licked out), managing both an offensive and defensive boost. And finally, he gets access to one of his other bread and butter spells; Bless. While it takes a round to set up, the bonuses from Archery, Magic Dart, and the average roll from Bless have completely negated the penalties from Sharpshooter. Sure, he has to choose which of his many three first level concentration spells to focus on in a given moment, making them mutually exclusive options, but they are options. Ensnaring Strike is his control/sustained damage, Hail of Thorns his wide damage, and Bless is his deep damage. He’ll have to choose which is the best for the situation, but thankfully for him, he’s pretty wise. Forge Cleric also nets him Searing Smite, but as that’s compatible with melee weapon attacks, it questionable as to how often he’d use it right now. Perhaps that’s why he carries around his trusty hand-axe?
Level 4: Ranger. Horizon Walker. Planar Warrior. Zephyr Strike. It’s more than just spending a bonus action to do an extra d8; it changes all the damage dealt to force damage. It’s that ability that will turn any bonus fire damage from being a forge cleric into the much more useful force damage… and arguably, serves to change the damage type of Hail of Thorns. Similarly, it takes the lackluster Searing Smite and changes the damage to a much more palatable damage type, at least for the initial damage. It also frees Rodrigo from needing to worry as much about a regular supply of magic weapons; resistance to bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage need not apply, which frees him to apply Forge Cleric bonus to his heavy armor, instead. Planar Warrior only applies to one attack, but that’s actually pretty synergistic with the nature of throwing weapons.
Likewise, he gets a new spell known; Zephyr Strike. Anyone who wants to engage with him is going to have a difficult time of it now, and the advantage it provides synergizes well with Sharpshooter and throwing in general.
Level 5: Ranger. ASI.
+2 to wisdom. As Rodrigo is more dependent on saves than most rangers, wisdom and strength hold equal weight for consideration... but there are far more items that boost a characters strength than there are that boost their wisdom. Likewise the bonus to hit when using the Archery makes pumping up strength less immediately dire than it otherwise would be. Getting that wisdom up therefor takes priority.
Level 6: Ranger. Extra Attack. Spell Casting.
Finally! Rodrigo can throw more than one dart in a round. If he focuses only on throwing, his attack sequence looks something like this. Round One: Dart in hand, throw dart 1, draw dart, throw dart 2. Round 2: draw dart, throw dart, lement that he can’t use his extra attack feature. Round 3-X: repeat round 2. Without the Dual Wielder feat that Sir John favors, the breakpoint where the action economy starts to punish throwing your weapons hits much sooner in an encounter. To circumvent this limitation, Rodrigo must slightly change his tactics; he must now rely on faith. He drops his shield in favor of carrying a longsword in his other hand; he’s not using it for two weapon fighting. Instead, he’s using it to allow himself to remain armed after throwing his darts and avoid The Porthos Problem. Why a longsword? Because as a versatile weapon it actually allows him to take advantage of The Porthos Problem; once one hand is empty of darts, there’s nothing to stop him putting it on his sword for that sweet +1 to average damage. Once again, a character has turned that weakness into a marginal advantage, and that’s good enough for me; that he’s also typically wielding a melee weapon that’s compatable with Searing Smite makes a spell that he’s largely avoided into something more palatable.
With these tactical changes in mind, his attack sequence will look more like this: Round 1: Dart and longsword in hand, throw dart one, draw dart, throw dart two. Round 2: Draw dart, throw dart three, move into melee for a two handed swing of the longsword. Round 3: Attack with longsword, if enemy dead = (draw dart, throw dart), if enemy alive =(attack with longsword). It’s at this point that Rodrigo must finally embrace his role as a switch hitter. Which is fine, because he has the tools for it; heavy armor, a good hit die, and supplemental spells.
And then, there’s the spellcasting. He gets misty step for free, which is a great supplemental movement power. Rodrigo could leave Pass Without Trace on the table, but maybe holding on to some sacred cows isn’t an entirely bad thing? Nah, he’s got enough concentration spells; lets grab Darkvision instead. Now he’s prepared for his leap of faith into the arms of his probably bearded god, having extracted everything he’s going to from his time as a ranger. He’s got all the tools he needs, now he needs to follow the path of faith and gain the spellslots to use those tools more freely.
Level 7: Cleric. Artisan’s Blessing. Spellcasting.
Rodrigo can finally make all the darts he wants, any when, any where, any why. He likes darts. Likewise, he’s more free to enhance them now, gaining spell slots on the regular rather than every few levels. This is most of what he’s getting from now on, pouring his levels into cleric to gain the spell slots needed to supplement his throwing arm. New spells aren’t even that big a deal for him; he’s already got enough of a variety to make himself a badass thrower without resorting casting Spirit Guardians or Spiritual Weapon… and frankly, enough uses for his bonus action options not to want to rely on spiritual weapon at all. But you do eventually get access to Magic Weapon (level 12), Elemental Weapon (Level 14), and Holy Weapon (Level 16), spells with a pretty cool potential for someone constantly throwing his weapons away; many of the new spells he can get access to via Forge Cleric serve to enhance his ability to use weapons beyond the realms of merely spamming cantrips. They serve to keep his magic weapons purely disposable, and that’s a pretty good fit, all things considered.
Level 9: ASI.
Wisdom or strength. I’d go wisdom, for the same reasons as before. But if Rodrigo finds that his to hit bonus isn’t quite keeping up (which really shouldn’t be the case given how very many ways he has to boost his to hit) now’s the time to boost strength.
Level 11: Cleric. Soul of the Forge.
Rodrigo gets resistance to fire (eh) and +1 to AC when wearing heavy armor (Yay!) He’s finally made up the AC ground that he lost when he dropped the shield for a more aggressive, in your face style of fighting.
Level 13: Divine Strike. ASI.
Once a round, add 1d8 fire to an attack for no action cost. Supplemented by Planar Warrior’s bonus action, that turns into 2d8 force. Not bad for a free, spamable option. At level 19, add another d8; he’s out dicing his peak cantrip damage by taking the attack action, even before supplementing his strikes with spells or taking a second attack. That’s the definition of viable, right there; the easy button option is getting outperformed with attacks that don’t require the use of any meaningful resources! Huzzah; the threshold is reached and it comes online just a short while after cantrips start becoming stronger.
To whit: Toll the Dead best case level 11; 3d12 (19) necrotic, one target, no meaningful resources used. Attack action best case level 11; 1d4 (2) + 1d8 (4) + ability mod (3 min) + 10 = 19 force, second attack for 1d4 (2) + mod (3 min) + 10 = 15 pierce, bonus action used, but no resources spent. Hitting even once matches the cantrip for at will damage
And it only gets better come level 13, upgraded by the godly force of divine strike adding an extra d8 (and later 2d8) to the first attack that hits. The first instance effectively outpaces toll the dead with one hit, and the second comes just in time to outpace it again; hot damn, the build is viable, this isn’t just a waste of time… well, actually it is, but we all have a lot of time these days to waste. Suffice it to say, I’m glad to be getting over the most basic humps in the road; adequately outpacing one of the better attack cantrips was sort of the goal here. Sharpshooter took care of “why not just cast a cantrip” at low levels and “Divine Strike” answers the question adequately later. Bam.
Sorry for the total lack of discipline through this section, but actually overcoming one of my major skepticisms has been pretty sweet. Moving on to the other exciting aspect of this level.
ASI, +2 to strength. “You can finally start pumping strength up. If you didn’t find a magic item by now, you probably won’t. Time to bite the bullet and get swole,” Rodrigo’s already maxed out wisdom tells him in an aside. And doing so gives just a little something extra to make the attack action more special than a cantrip.
Level 17+: Cleric. ASI.
Strength is finally muh-muh-muh-maxed out. Just in time for monsters to have truly killer AC, and to max out the two key characteristics of the build. Keep on keeping on as a cleric. Every spell slot he has is another option available for making his darts cool as hell or his longsword a two fisted terror stick.
In the end you have a caster with the spell slots of a 17th level cleric (9th level slots, ya’ll), the spells known of a 15th level cleric (8th level spells, ya’ll), and a ton of options for making his attack action pretty badass. And his attack range from spamming a spell every round to simply upcasting elemental weapon on his longsword at the start of the dungeon to supplement his melee attacks with 3d4 damage and +3 to hit while relying on his bonus action to turn his darts into force damage for his more laid back mode; it’s more complicated than just casting a cantrip, but also more effective. I’d play this guy. He’s as ultimately as versatile as his longsword.
What a wild ride this dude was for me. Enough mutually exclusive options to make the most tactically minded players think twice, multiple uses for bonus actions every round, and a fairly consistent playstyle that is modestly unique. A dedicated switch hitter who has the tools to fulfill several rolls, he can handle control/damage/movement/melee/support/tanking roles with some degree of competence from the earliest levels to the latest. That’s not so bad.
He’s not a wood elfen accurate, sharpshooting samurai. But if that’s what you wanted to play, then why did I bother doing any of this? And furthermore, a wood elfen accurate, shapshooting samurai isn’t this guy, either. They’re very different playstyles with very different capabilities, in addition to embodying a different aesthetic.

And these three are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to building characters who throw weapons. If you too wished to play a character who creatively disarms themselves, I hope this whet your appetite and got you thinking about other ways to go about it. Throwing is viable combat solution, just different.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to go explain to my paladin player that after consulting the rules that I was wrong and that he should have been able to smite on that javelin throw after all.

Segev
2020-04-14, 12:33 AM
I just want to point out one thing about darts as melee weapons: they are improvised weapons when used that way. This is a hindrance, until you realize you can use them with Tavern Brawler.

Take that feat, and they’re cheaper daggers that interact well with sharpshooter and let you initiate grapples as a bonus action if you hit with them in melee!

Still no love for drawing faster, though. Not even the Thief’s expanded cunning action helps: it still consumes your bonus action.

Asisreo1
2020-04-14, 01:47 AM
I think throwing weapons have a niche that makes them useful: They mostly use strength. This gives pure strength characters a ranged option. You can actually get past the "draw one weapon only" thing by having two light weapons already in-hand, throwing one and using your interaction to draw another one. That way, you always have two in each hand. Why two? Well, in case you want to throw both at once, either to finish an enemy or something else.

When they get into melee, they can easily just keep using the light two-handed melee style without the disarming.

Running out of javelins? Well, it's good to note you can make about 10 of them in a day. And if you're a strength character, you should be able to tote quite a few around.

elyktsorb
2020-04-14, 02:10 AM
Currently thinking about those magic darts that would come back to your hand after you threw them.

Tanarii
2020-04-14, 02:26 AM
I just want to point out one thing about darts as melee weapons: they are improvised weapons when used that way.
Interestingly the rule that it applies to all ranged weapons, not just ones with the ammunition property, is buried in the improvised weapons rules. So it's easy to understand why the OP overlooked it and thought it was ammunition weapons only.

Dork_Forge
2020-04-14, 04:41 AM
The best answer for this was unfortunately in the book you left behind, the Artificer! Returning Weapon infusion makes your weapon a +1 and magically returns to your hand when thrown, taking care of the action economy and giving your damage a slight boost. From there take Dueling for another static damage bump and if you chose to use a dagger, level in Rogue to your heart's content for Sneak Attack dice. Using Returning Weapon I think also makes dual wielding thrown weapons viable, you make most of your attacks with your infused weapon and then your object interaction to draw a new offhand weapon.

In the Class Variants UA there was a Fighting Style that addressed the support for throwing somewhat, if it becomes official you could then theoretically stack it+Dueling+Returning Weapon for die+mod+4 which isn't bad at all for at will ranged damage.

Mr Adventurer
2020-04-14, 05:06 AM
Similarly I'd like to pick up on the point about nets, since I've been thinking about them: I don't think you can make a melee attack with a net, since it's a ranged weapon; used as a melee weapon, it would be an improvised weapon, and there's nothing to say the net special properties (entangling) would apply to its use as an improvised weapon.

There's a similar 'problem' (it's possibly by design) with alchemist fire and acid, where you can either throw them or splash them on an adjacent target but those both count as ranged attacks and so you have to use Dex and you get disadvantage on the "splash" option, and only Crossbow Expert can help you.

Kane0
2020-04-14, 05:48 AM
In the Class Variants UA there was a Fighting Style that addressed the support for throwing somewhat, if it becomes official you could then theoretically stack it+Dueling+Returning Weapon for die+mod+4 which isn't bad at all for at will ranged damage.

And I hate it. Not because its broken but because it locks out Barbarians, Rogues and anyone else that doesn’t get access to that particular style (Paladins and Valor Bards, feasibly). It creates an implication that only certain kinds of characters should be able to throw, and its not even the ones many typically think of.

Just allow weapons with the Thrown quality to be drawn freely like ammunition is. It helps both throwers and TWFers with the same stone. THEN you can come up with feats, styles and magic items. For example a style that ricochets back thrown weapons to you so you don’t cleverly disarm yourself (a far less critical problem that a style is better suited to addressing), and for a feat expanded ranges and something unique like getting to add both Str AND Dex to attack and damage of thrown weapons.

/2cp

Segev
2020-04-14, 06:04 AM
If thrown weapons could be drawn like weapons with the ammunition property, would there be meaning to the ammunition property?

Not an argument against the notion, just thinking through the implications. Could the ammunition property be eliminated and just be the default for ranged weapons, and the thrown property gain a note that it means the weapon is its own ammunition?

loki_ragnarock
2020-04-14, 08:11 AM
Interestingly the rule that it applies to all ranged weapons, not just ones with the ammunition property, is buried in the improvised weapons rules. So it's easy to understand why the OP overlooked it and thought it was ammunition weapons only.

Son of a socially acceptable person!

It's there, plain as day, in the first paragraph of page 148. Had I but turned one more page. So I still have to apologize to my paladin player while also being super wrong about darts? Boo! Why even include that in the ammunition tag if it isn't a distinguishing element? Argh! Why include nets at all!? Meltdown noises!


Even so:

The Paladin still manages to do his thing, and is perversely probably the best thrower of the bunch with all his ways to enhance melee weapons attacks. Sir John emerges unscathed by this obvious oversight. The javaladin is still viable; thus one path for throwing is viable.


The rogue has to be a V. Human with a slightly different stat spread that starts with Tavern Brawler. Boo. Or start with Crossbow Expert and mostly ignore 2/3rds the feat. Even louder boo.
The halfling was an attempt at something iconic. Alternatively, the mechanics of it are still satisfied with the two weapon clutch method; Cheryl has to keep a short sword on her person from 1-20. I guess that makes her more internally consistent, and it doesn't totally invalidate her build; she plays the same, just with zero empty hands. She still controls zones better than a bow rogue, still has more opportunities for off turn sneak attacks, and basically still plays the same. Still viable, just with a different image. Two paths, at least, are safe.

But Rodrigo? He's not totally screwed, but he isn't quite as good. While he used the two weapon clutch method in his progression, the notion of walking around a dungeon with a dart in each hand without worry of something popping out at him from the shadows mostly invalidated; he'd be as vulnerable as any bow user should those circumstances arise. So he'll also be using the two weapon clutch method from an early level, which impacts his survivability in the starting levels since he can't hide behind a shield... although the archery fighting style does offset the lack of proficiency bonus when using darts up until level 5! Which is near the same time he was transitioning to the two weapon clutch method anyway; it's a point in the progression after he's gained heavy armor, after he frees things up to use his forge cleric magic on his armor, and one level before he would have had to drop his shield, anyway. He remains durable for the duration.
So he isn't quite as accurate in melee as I'd initially pitched, but the way he plays and progresses otherwise is much as before.
I'd say that remains viable, even if it worked out mostly through happenstance.

Throwing can still be done.

I was totally wrong about darts and nets, though.

Dork_Forge
2020-04-14, 11:59 AM
And I hate it. Not because its broken but because it locks out Barbarians, Rogues and anyone else that doesn’t get access to that particular style (Paladins and Valor Bards, feasibly). It creates an implication that only certain kinds of characters should be able to throw, and its not even the ones many typically think of.

Just allow weapons with the Thrown quality to be drawn freely like ammunition is. It helps both throwers and TWFers with the same stone. THEN you can come up with feats, styles and magic items. For example a style that ricochets back thrown weapons to you so you don’t cleverly disarm yourself (a far less critical problem that a style is better suited to addressing), and for a feat expanded ranges and something unique like getting to add both Str AND Dex to attack and damage of thrown weapons.

/2cp

It's not saying that they shouldn't throw, just that they aren't the best at it, the same way that they aren't the best at anything covered in any of the other styles. I'm not sure how much I'd support Barbarians throwing, presumably they usually do that in a pinch when they need the range not as a go to tactic, the class is clearly orientated towards melee, but I don't really see how it affects the Rogue that badly. They don't get extra attack, so unless they TWF the can't throw more than one thing anyway and that's easily covered by the existing object interaction rules. Between Rogue's damage being Sneak focused and Cunning Action being a really compelling bonus action choice (not to mention subclass bonus actions), they probably aren't looking to TWF all the time anyway unless that person has a strong inclination towards that (and if they really want to that badly, then the Dual Wielder feat seems very appropriate and fixes all the problems the Rogue has in this regard).

Segev
2020-04-14, 12:03 PM
It's not saying that they shouldn't throw, just that they aren't the best at it, the same way that they aren't the best at anything covered in any of the other styles. I'm not sure how much I'd support Barbarians throwing, presumably they usually do that in a pinch when they need the range not as a go to tactic, the class is clearly orientated towards melee, but I don't really see how it affects the Rogue that badly. They don't get extra attack, so unless they TWF the can't throw more than one thing anyway and that's easily covered by the existing object interaction rules. Between Rogue's damage being Sneak focused and Cunning Action being a really compelling bonus action choice (not to mention subclass bonus actions), they probably aren't looking to TWF all the time anyway unless that person has a strong inclination towards that (and if they really want to that badly, then the Dual Wielder feat seems very appropriate and fixes all the problems the Rogue has in this regard).

I think the issue is that the other fighting styles give nice perks and bonuses, but none of them enable a fighting style. You can wield a weapon one-handed with nothing in your off-hand without a +1 bonus to AC and not have the style be harder to use. Anything that you add to a "throwing" fighting style that does something like increase how many items you can draw to throw in a round is thus a much more powerful (for that style) effect than the others, as evidenced by how it makes people feel classes without access to the style are "locked out" of the ability to use weapons in that style.

Which means this should either be a house rule on thrown weapons in general, or a feat (which probably actually comes online about the right time, too, just before people start getting extra attacks).

JackPhoenix
2020-04-14, 01:47 PM
The Paladin still manages to do his thing, and is perversely probably the best thrower of the bunch with all his ways to enhance melee weapons attacks. Sir John emerges unscathed by this obvious oversight. The javaladin is still viable; thus one path for throwing is viable.

Throwing anything is ranged attack, not melee attack, so it's not.

loki_ragnarock
2020-04-14, 02:35 PM
Throwing anything is ranged attack, not melee attack, so it's not.

And yet, it is also an attack with a melee weapon, so it is.

If the abilities in the source or the errata had specifically called out melee attacks, I wouldn't make the case. But they call out melee weapon attacks. Repeatedly, for pretty much every instance of smite or smite spells. Javelins, daggers, hand axes are all categorized as melee weapons even when thrown.

If a DM wanted to extend that they're ranged weapons when thrown, then cool; you've solved almost every issue a person throwing weapons would have with that change. It becomes a little easier for every other character that wants to throw things.

Tanarii
2020-04-14, 04:17 PM
If the abilities in the source or the errata had specifically called out melee attacks, I wouldn't make the case. But they call out melee weapon attacks. Repeatedly, for pretty much every instance of smite or smite spells. Javelins, daggers, hand axes are all categorized as melee weapons even when thrown.
that's not what a melee weapons attack is. Those are ranged weapon attacks with a melee weapon.
See sage advice compendium for an explanation.

Edit: If it helps, I can rewrite it as:
that's not what a melee (weapon attack) is. Those are ranged (weapon attacks) with a melee weapon.

loki_ragnarock
2020-04-14, 08:50 PM
that's not what a melee weapons attack is. Those are ranged weapon attacks with a melee weapon.
See sage advice compendium for an explanation.

Edit: If it helps, I can rewrite it as:
that's not what a melee (weapon attack) is. Those are ranged (weapon attacks) with a melee weapon.

Sage advice isn't something I'm willing to consider, nor are Crawford tweets.

If they want to make a firmer definition, then they need to errata the documents to introduce clarity.

As they've failed to, and the 2020 errata document released not to long ago, means that while that is a valid interpretation, so is the other.

JackPhoenix
2020-04-14, 11:38 PM
And yet, it is also an attack with a melee weapon, so it is.

If the abilities in the source or the errata had specifically called out melee attacks, I wouldn't make the case. But they call out melee weapon attacks. Repeatedly, for pretty much every instance of smite or smite spells. Javelins, daggers, hand axes are all categorized as melee weapons even when thrown.

If a DM wanted to extend that they're ranged weapons when thrown, then cool; you've solved almost every issue a person throwing weapons would have with that change. It becomes a little easier for every other character that wants to throw things.

Thrown javelin is a ranged weapon attack with a melee weapon. It works with first two points of SS, but not the third, it works with Improved Divine Smite, but not Divine Smite and most x Smite spells, it does not work with Archery FS, but it does work with Dueling FS (and TWF, if you have Dual Wielder).
Thrown dart is a ranged weapon attack with a ranged weapon. It works with entire SS, it works only with Branding Smite and Banishing Smite, it works with Archery FS, but not Dueling or TWF FS.
Another funny thing is Magic Stone used with a sling. It's a ranged spell attack with a ranged weapon, so it works with the last point of SS, but not the first two, it works with Archery FS, but not with any smite except Branding Smite and Banishing Smite.
And for completeness' sake, throwing a sword is a ranged weapon attack with improvised weapon. It works with first two points of SS, but not the third, no smite except Branding Smite and Banishing Smite, and no fighting style. It also uses Dex for attack and damage. The sword will also lose all properties it has when used as such, so it does not matter if it's Heavy, Finesse or whatever.

Segev
2020-04-15, 12:09 AM
Notably, because magic stone from a sling is a ranged spell attack with a ranged weapon, sneak attack can be applied with it.

Still not sure it's worth it, though; ultimately, 1d6+casting mod is not that much more than whoever has the sling's 1d4+dex, most likely.

Kane0
2020-04-15, 01:58 AM
At least its magic, so can bypass resistance if the DM is being stingy with magic weapons?

Xetheral
2020-04-15, 10:50 AM
Thrown javelin is a ranged weapon attack with a melee weapon. It works with first two points of SS, but not the third, it works with Improved Divine Smite, but not Divine Smite and most x Smite spells, it does not work with Archery FS, but it does work with Dueling FS (and TWF, if you have Dual Wielder).
Thrown dart is a ranged weapon attack with a ranged weapon. It works with entire SS, it works only with Branding Smite and Banishing Smite, it works with Archery FS, but not Dueling or TWF FS.
Another funny thing is Magic Stone used with a sling. It's a ranged spell attack with a ranged weapon, so it works with the last point of SS, but not the first two, it works with Archery FS, but not with any smite except Branding Smite and Banishing Smite.

Since the OP has already said that he isn't willing to consider Sage Advice or Crawford tweets, none of the above is necessarily true. Without those other sources, it comes down to a subjective question of interpretation regarding whether or not the text strctly follows the hyphenation rules for compound adjectives. If it does, then everything you wrote above still applies, even in the absence of Sage Advice or Crawford tweets. But I think it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that the informal language used through the PHB suggests that the formal rules for hyphenating compound adjectives were not being followed.


And for completeness' sake, throwing a sword is a ranged weapon attack with improvised weapon. It works with first two points of SS, but not the third, no smite except Branding Smite and Banishing Smite, and no fighting style. It also uses Dex for attack and damage. The sword will also lose all properties it has when used as such, so it does not matter if it's Heavy, Finesse or whatever.

This one is still contested even when Sage Advice and Crawford tweets are considered. I'm aware of three different interpretations: (1) the one you wrote, (2) that throwing a sword is a ranged weapon attack with an improvised melee weapon or an improvised ranged weapon (DM's choice), and (3) that throwing a sword is a ranged weapon attack with a non-weapon. There is yet further debate within each of these options over related questions such as weapon properties.

I recognize that you consider interpretation 1 to be the best interpretation, but for completeness sake I think it is important to acknowledge the ongoing controversy regarding the treatment of improvised weapons.

Segev
2020-04-15, 10:53 AM
Because this is the edition of "rulings, not rules," I think it may actually be more productive to discuss consequences of each of these possibilities, and whether they are desirable or not.

Zhorn
2020-04-15, 11:05 AM
Because this is the edition of "rulings, not rules," I think it may actually be more productive to discuss consequences of each of these possibilities, and whether they are desirable or not.
Which for the sake of the discussion's ongoing benefit would be a good way to take it.

Having a discussing based on "THE RULES" becomes meaningless the moment you start dismissing clarifications from the designers just because you don't like the answers.
That's not a personal dig. It's a common stance that pops up time to time on a lot of forums; someone asks for advice or clarification on how to do something, an answer is given from sage advice or a tweet from the designer, only to be followed up with "no, not THAT answer".

Much more productive to talk about the type of rulings you would like to use, and what ways they need to be adjusted, or imbalances they could present that the DM should be aware of.

Segev
2020-04-15, 01:23 PM
Since it has a huge impact on barbarian raging, what are the consequences (besides the obvious "applying rage damage") to ruling that ranged attacks with melee weapons are melee weapon attacks?

Is the increase to barbarian thrown weapon damage with javelins and most other thrown weapons (basically, any but darts), itself, too much? Too powerful?

Are there other unmentioned consequences of throwing javelins counting as "melee weapon attacks" that just happen to be ranged?

Zalabim
2020-04-16, 01:43 AM
Since it has a huge impact on barbarian raging, what are the consequences (besides the obvious "applying rage damage") to ruling that ranged attacks with melee weapons are melee weapon attacks?

Is the increase to barbarian thrown weapon damage with javelins and most other thrown weapons (basically, any but darts), itself, too much? Too powerful?

Are there other unmentioned consequences of throwing javelins counting as "melee weapon attacks" that just happen to be ranged?
There's the paladins smiting and monks using stunning strike with thrown melee weapons too. If this means it's not a ranged attack, then it would also bypass the rules for having disadvantage on ranged attacks when an enemy (that can see you and is not incapacitated) is within 5'.

Kane0
2020-04-16, 01:53 AM
As DM my ruling is:
Every attack is [melee or ranged] and [spell or weapon]. If you’re in doubt, ask yourself ‘which applies more closely?’, then ask me if you cant answer that.
Melee weapons cannot be used to make ranged attacks without the thrown property, and ranged weapons cannot be used to make melee attacks.
The exception to this is if you are improvising, such as throwing a leg of ham or smacking someone with the butt of a crossbow.

JackPhoenix
2020-04-16, 09:57 AM
Since it has a huge impact on barbarian raging, what are the consequences (besides the obvious "applying rage damage") to ruling that ranged attacks with melee weapons are melee weapon attacks?

Is the increase to barbarian thrown weapon damage with javelins and most other thrown weapons (basically, any but darts), itself, too much? Too powerful?

Are there other unmentioned consequences of throwing javelins counting as "melee weapon attacks" that just happen to be ranged?

Well, strictly RAW, there are some funny consequences....

To make a melee attack, the target must be within your reach. Reach is a different thing from range. If thrown javelin was a melee attack, you would either be able to make it at the awesome distance of 5' (because thrown property gives the weapon range, it does not increase your reach), or you would increase your reach to 60', which means opportunity attacks... and some other stuff... at 60'. You wouldn't be able to use any of SS's points with it, so no way to get rid of long range disadvantage, but still.

Cavalier 18/Artificer 2 for Returning Weapon, take PAM and Sentinel, pick a spear instead of a javelin. Congratulations, now any time an enemy moves within 60' of you, you can make an attack against them and stop them from moving if you hit.

Segev
2020-04-17, 09:53 AM
Darts are odd for being left out of Monk weapons. Daggers are Monk weapons, and can be thrown, and are finesse, so it's not like those properties are something that obviates the status. Darts would be extremely easily refluffed to shuriken or kunai. (Well, daggers can be kunai, too, I suppose.)

That said, evne if they were Monk weapons, most Monk features that increase attacks only do so for unarmed strikes, so it wouldn't help there. Hrm.

Dork_Forge
2020-04-17, 12:54 PM
Darts are odd for being left out of Monk weapons. Daggers are Monk weapons, and can be thrown, and are finesse, so it's not like those properties are something that obviates the status. Darts would be extremely easily refluffed to shuriken or kunai. (Well, daggers can be kunai, too, I suppose.)

That said, evne if they were Monk weapons, most Monk features that increase attacks only do so for unarmed strikes, so it wouldn't help there. Hrm.

They were just omitted because they're ranged weapons, I don't think anything would break if you allowed them but it does open a bit of a can of worms: one handed ranged weapons cap out normally at 1d6 but Monk progression would pass that, Sharpshooter shenanigans probably and it erodes the identity of the Kensei, the current ranged weapon specialist amongst Monks. I'm guessing they just wanted to lock down the Monk as a class to melee overall.

Segev
2020-04-17, 12:57 PM
They were just omitted because they're ranged weapons, I don't think anything would break if you allowed them but it does open a bit of a can of worms: one handed ranged weapons cap out normally at 1d6 but Monk progression would pass that, Sharpshooter shenanigans probably and it erodes the identity of the Kensei, the current ranged weapon specialist amongst Monks. I'm guessing they just wanted to lock down the Monk as a class to melee overall.

Really, the only thing darts have over daggers is cost. Get past a certain point, and the 2 gp/dagger is negligible since you can just collect them afterwards. It's only ammo that you get half back after a fight. Thrown weapons can be fully retrieved unless something happens (like your javelin being embedded in a dinosaur that falls into lava or something).

Mr Adventurer
2020-04-17, 01:41 PM
Well, range is probably the biggest advantage they have. Weight is the other one.

Segev
2020-04-17, 01:45 PM
Well, range is probably the biggest advantage they have. Weight is the other one.

Weight, yes, but their range is the same as a dagger's.

The two things darts have over daggers are the fact that you can buy 40 darts for the price of one dagger, and that they weigh 1/4 the weight.

Daggers have, over darts, the fact that they can be used in melee without being improvised weapons, and that they're light weapons. ...which is interesting. Does that mean you can't dual wield with a dart in one or both hands? Or is there a rule I'm missing/forgetting somewhere that makes ranged weapons count as light for this purpose?

Mr Adventurer
2020-04-17, 01:53 PM
Goddamn, you're right! I was certain that darts had a slightly better range!

Dork_Forge
2020-04-17, 03:24 PM
Weight, yes, but their range is the same as a dagger's.

The two things darts have over daggers are the fact that you can buy 40 darts for the price of one dagger, and that they weigh 1/4 the weight.

Daggers have, over darts, the fact that they can be used in melee without being improvised weapons, and that they're light weapons. ...which is interesting. Does that mean you can't dual wield with a dart in one or both hands? Or is there a rule I'm missing/forgetting somewhere that makes ranged weapons count as light for this purpose?

TWF only applies to melee weapons and by default only to light melee weapons, so Darts would be ineligible on two fronts for it. On Darts vs Daggers in general: Archery can apply to Darts, Dueling can apply to Daggers so they kind of separate out into a more accurate weapon and a more deadly one.

JackPhoenix
2020-04-17, 04:15 PM
Weight, yes, but their range is the same as a dagger's.

The two things darts have over daggers are the fact that you can buy 40 darts for the price of one dagger, and that they weigh 1/4 the weight.

Daggers have, over darts, the fact that they can be used in melee without being improvised weapons, and that they're light weapons. ...which is interesting. Does that mean you can't dual wield with a dart in one or both hands? Or is there a rule I'm missing/forgetting somewhere that makes ranged weapons count as light for this purpose?

You can't TWF with ranged weapons, period. While hand crossbow has light property, it doesn't matter. (well, it does matter for my Crossbow Expert feat replacement, which allows drawing light weapons as part of a ranged attack, but that's designed more for pistols and thrown weapons than hand crossbows).

You can, of course, throw a dart from both hands if you have Extra Attack, but TWF bonus action attack only works with melee weapons.