Natural Bond, Druids, and powerful Animal Companions.

[Carden-Gix'oth]

OK. I have a new player joining our 3.5e game (She's been playing 5e a bit, and has always wanted to try 3.5e), and she's playing a Druid. She's also joining an in-progress game, and my players are level 10 now. As a 9th Level Aasimar Druid (ECL 10), she took a Tiger as her animal companion, and she asked me about Natural Bond, and how that works.


So, we're going over her character, and we have Spells done, Skill points, equipment bought paid for, and we're wrapping up with Feats. She's looking through dndtools.net, and she sees the Feat "Natural Bond". To refresh ya'll's memory, Natural Bond bumps your Effective Druid Level up by +3, up to a max of your Character Level. It helps a multi-classed Druid, as well as a Ranger, have a stronger animal companion.

Tigers are also a strong animal companion, counting as Druid Level -7 for the abilities it gets. Since she counts as Druid Level 2 for the Tiger, the Tiger only gets Link and Share Spells. Nothing more. Well, not until she levels up, anyway.

Her question is this: "Wouldn't Natural Bond make me count as Druid Level 5 for the Tiger, since the Tiger lowers my Effective Druid Level, cause it's a stronger animal?"

I have no idea what to tell her, cause I've never had anyone ask me this in all my time playing D&D. I'm by no means a perfect DM, either. I want to say it does, cause RAW, it seems to say that, but it also doesn't seem to match RAI....

Also, in case you want to know party makeup to keep her in line with the rest of the party, we have the following:

Aasimar Paladin/Monk/Sacred Fist (Celestial Bloodline)
Dragonborn Monk (Bloodline to be determined, still working with him on it)
Celadrin Sorcerer/Fire Mage (Frost Mage PrC retooled for Fire) (Gold Dragon Bloodline)
Human Rogue/Chameleon (Fey Bloodline)
Human Half-Vampire Bard (Vampire Bloodline)

All either Level 10, or ECL 10, all with Bloodlines (will be working with the Dragonborn, and the Druid to hash out their Bloodlines). It's not a matter of "this would make her Tiger wayyy too powerful" it's a matter of "Can I justify it, and if so, how?"

I'd appreciate any help ya'll can give me.

P.S. The campaign is heavily Dragon focused, so the Dragonborn Lore won't be clashing. Just to clear up any and all confusion over that particular tidbit.

[ClericalTank]

1st rule of running games: Yes.

I don't have books right now but iirc the druid feature specifically references the effective level when subtracting for animals stronger than the almighty badger, which as you said is meant for rangers and multi classing (monk should be worded similarly, as other classes count as half-levels for monk feats).

This would indicate that you can only raise the total effective druid to ECL, which would be an increase of 1 due to LA (total 3 for the tiger).

...at least, that's what I remember of the rules. It could go either way so I'll fact check in a few hours.

[Melcar]

OK. I have a new player joining our 3.5e game (She's been playing 5e a bit, and has always wanted to try 3.5e), and she's playing a Druid. She's also joining an in-progress game, and my players are level 10 now. As a 9th Level Aasimar Druid (ECL 10), she took a Tiger as her animal companion, and she asked me about Natural Bond, and how that works.


So, we're going over her character, and we have Spells done, Skill points, equipment bought paid for, and we're wrapping up with Feats. She's looking through dndtools.net, and she sees the Feat "Natural Bond". To refresh ya'll's memory, Natural Bond bumps your Effective Druid Level up by +3, up to a max of your Character Level. It helps a multi-classed Druid, as well as a Ranger, have a stronger animal companion.

Tigers are also a strong animal companion, counting as Druid Level -7 for the abilities it gets. Since she counts as Druid Level 2 for the Tiger, the Tiger only gets Link and Share Spells. Nothing more. Well, not until she levels up, anyway.

Her question is this: "Wouldn't Natural Bond make me count as Druid Level 5 for the Tiger, since the Tiger lowers my Effective Druid Level, cause it's a stronger animal?"

I have no idea what to tell her, cause I've never had anyone ask me this in all my time playing D&D. I'm by no means a perfect DM, either. I want to say it does, cause RAW, it seems to say that, but it also doesn't seem to match RAI....

Also, in case you want to know party makeup to keep her in line with the rest of the party, we have the following:

Aasimar Paladin/Monk/Sacred Fist (Celestial Bloodline)
Dragonborn Monk (Bloodline to be determined, still working with him on it)
Celadrin Sorcerer/Fire Mage (Frost Mage PrC retooled for Fire) (Gold Dragon Bloodline)
Human Rogue/Chameleon (Fey Bloodline)
Human Half-Vampire Bard (Vampire Bloodline)

All either Level 10, or ECL 10, all with Bloodlines (will be working with the Dragonborn, and the Druid to hash out their Bloodlines). It's not a matter of "this would make her Tiger wayyy too powerful" it's a matter of "Can I justify it, and if so, how?"

I'd appreciate any help ya'll can give me.

P.S. The campaign is heavily Dragon focused, so the Dragonborn Lore won't be clashing. Just to clear up any and all confusion over that particular tidbit.

Yes, basically Natural Bond lets you coun't as higher than your HD for animal companions at higher level... ergo it reduced the reduction, if that makes sense!

[Carden-Gix'oth]

Yes, basically Natural Bond lets you coun't as higher than your HD for animal companions at higher level... ergo it reduced the reduction, if that makes sense!

The way you worded it makes no sense. But I think I get what you're saying. Natural Bond works, provided it doesn't make her Effective Druid Level 10 or higher. Since she has 9 Hit Dice

[Carden-Gix'oth]

1st rule of running games: Yes.

I don't have books right now but iirc the druid feature specifically references the effective level when subtracting for animals stronger than the almighty badger, which as you said is meant for rangers and multi classing (monk should be worded similarly, as other classes count as half-levels for monk feats).

This would indicate that you can only raise the total effective druid to ECL, which would be an increase of 1 due to LA (total 3 for the tiger).

...at least, that's what I remember of the rules. It could go either way so I'll fact check in a few hours.

I have to disagree with you on the 1st rule of running games. I have powergamers in my party, and if I said yes to everything, their level 10 PCs would be decked out with all +5 items, and 18s in every ability score (not counting the ASIs at levels 4 and 8, that is.)

As for Natural Bond, it... well, hold on. Lemme copy and paste the wording of the Feat for you.

Natural Bond, as found on Pg. 54 of Complete Adventurer say the following:

Natural Bond

[General]

Your bond with your animal companion is exceptionally strong.

Prerequisite
Animal companion,

Benefit
Add three to your effective druid level for the purpose of determining the bonus Hit Dice, extra tricks, special abilities, and other bonuses that your animal companion receives (see page 36 of the Player's Handbook). This bonus can never make your effective druid level exceed your character level.

When dealing with stronger animals (such as a Tiger, or an Ape, or a Dire Wolf), the Player's Handbook as this to say:

A druid of 4th level or higher may select from alternative lists of animals (see the sidebar). Should she select an animal companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the character?s druid level were lower than it actually is. Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character's druid level and compare the result with the druid level entry on the table in the sidebar to determine the animal companion's powers. (If this adjustment would reduce the druid's effective level to 0 or lower, she can't have that animal as a companion.) For example, a 6th-level druid could select a leopard as an animal companion. The leopard would have characteristics and special abilities as if the druid were 3rd level (taking into account the -3 adjustment) instead of 6th level.


As I said, RAW (Rules As Written) seems to say "Yeah, Natural Bond is a way to cheat out getting more abilities (to a point) for a higher strength Animal Companion", but RAI (Rules As Intended), don't seem to say that...

I'm personally in favor of giving it to her as Nature Bond boosts what your Animal Companion can get by 3 levels, up to your character level, since then I can throw bigger enemies at my players, but I just need to know if that's reasonable. I don't want her thinking "Most DMs who aren't *******s will agree with me on this" if that's not the case, you know?

[ixrisor]

I don’t think an additional 2 hit dice and an extra ability really make the animal companion op, especially not at 10th level, and it obviously works by raw, so I would call it fine.

[Carden-Gix'oth]

I don’t think an additional 2 hit dice and an extra ability really make the animal companion op, especially not at 10th level, and it obviously works by raw, so I would call it fine.

+2 HD, +2 Natural Armor, +1 STR and +1 DEX, 2 total extra tricks, and Evasion. On top of being a Tiger. And we rolled for Hit Dice (since a Tiger can be up to 12d8 HD and still be just a Large Tiger, and I rolled a 6. So 12d8 HD Tiger...) But yeah, the more I think about it, the more I'm ok with it. I'm gonna wait until I have more replies, and then I'll talk it over with my party, and we go from there. Just wanna get more people's opinions on it.

[daryen]

If you don't want to give it because it seems wrong, then use this interpretation:

When you get a stronger animal companion, "the creature gains abilities as if the character's druid level were lower than it actually is". Note that abilities the creature gains uses a lower level, the druid's actual and effective level is unchanged. The feat only changes the effective druid level when the druid level, as a whole, is lower than their character level. So, if one thing treats a single-class druid's druid level as lower than their actual druid level, this feat doesn't apply because the actual druid level is still the same as their character level. Only when the character's druid level, as the whole druid level, is less than the character's character level, does the feat apply.

This is just an interpretation that justifies this conclusion. It is not necessarily the correct interpretation (but I'll bet it is the one intended), but it is a valid and defensible interpretation.

Note that this would mean that the feat does NOT apply to Rangers, unless they are multi-classed.

If, however, you automatically apply this to Rangers, then it should apply to druids with strong animal companions, too. I can't see how you can allow one without allowing the other.

[False God]

As I said, RAW (Rules As Written) seems to say "Yeah, Natural Bond is a way to cheat out getting more abilities (to a point) for a higher strength Animal Companion", but RAI (Rules As Intended), don't seem to say that...

You've said this a couple of times and pardon if I missed it, but what do you think the RAI says this feat does?

To me it's always been very clear, if you have the feat when you do your Animal Companion math, you treat your druid level as though it were 3 levels higher. That has always seemed fairly clear.

If you think the rules intended for this feat to do something else, what do you think it is intended to do?

[Carden-Gix'oth]

If you don't want to give it because it seems wrong, then use this interpretation:

When you get a stronger animal companion, "the creature gains abilities as if the character's druid level were lower than it actually is". Note that abilities the creature gains uses a lower level, the druid's actual and effective level is unchanged. The feat only changes the effective druid level when the druid level, as a whole, is lower than their character level. So, if one thing treats a single-class druid's druid level as lower than their actual druid level, this feat doesn't apply because the actual druid level is still the same as their character level. Only when the character's druid level, as the whole druid level, is less than the character's character level, does the feat apply.

This is just an interpretation that justifies this conclusion. It is not necessarily the correct interpretation (but I'll bet it is the one intended), but it is a valid and defensible interpretation.

Note that this would mean that the feat does NOT apply to Rangers, unless they are multi-classed.

If, however, you automatically apply this to Rangers, then it should apply to druids with strong animal companions, too. I can't see how you can allow one without allowing the other.

It does apply to Rangers, even with the technically correct RAI interpretation. And here's why. The Animal Companion ability states the following (can be found in the Player's Handbook, and on dndtools.net/classes/ranger

This ability functions like the druid ability of the same name (see page 35), except that the ranger's effective druid level is one-half his ranger level.

A Ranger's Effective Druid Level is One Half Ranger Level. So if you're Level 4, Effective Druid Level is 2. If you're a level 20 Ranger, you're Effective Druid Level (for Animal Companions) is 10. With Natural Bond, you count as 3 levels of Effective Druid Level higher than normal, but no more than Character Level. So a Level 20 Ranger would count as a Level 13 Druid (20/2=10+3=13) for the purposes of Animal Companion abilities.


Aside from that, I agree with you on the rest of it. Still debating on whether I'll give it to her or not, but leaning towards "Yeah, Natural Bond works that way" for the time being......

[Carden-Gix'oth]

You've said this a couple of times and pardon if I missed it, but what do you think the RAI says this feat does?

To me it's always been very clear, if you have the feat when you do your Animal Companion math, you treat your druid level as though it were 3 levels higher. That has always seemed fairly clear.

If you think the rules intended for this feat to do something else, what do you think it is intended to do?

To me, it seems that Natural Bond only applies to Rangers (cause Effective Druid Level is ½ Ranger level for Animal Companion abilities), and to Multi-Classed Druids (7 Druid/3 Bard + Natural Bond = Level 10 Druid for Animal Companion) but since the Animal Companion rules don't specifically say your Effective Druid Level is treated as lower, it doesn't apply to full Druids. The exact wording says

A druid of 4th level or higher may select from alternative lists of animals (see the sidebar). Should she select an animal companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the character's druid level were lower than it actually is.

Compare that to the Ranger, which uses the following wording

This ability functions like the druid ability of the same name (see page 35), except that the ranger's effective druid level is one-half his ranger level.

One says "Effective Druid Level" and the other doesn't. Yeah, that's a lot of rules-lawyering in a single reply, but I play with rules lawyers, and I am one myself at times, so specifics matter.

On the whole I'd say it's up to DM interpretation, but I also don't want to give her the impression that every singe 3.5e DM is going to do it this way, unless they're jerk, or a "That DM". So I'm trying to find a balance between "Technically yes" and "well, actually"

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The 3.5 Main D&D FAQ (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a) has the following to say about this (page 51, first question on the page):


As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate
an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or
special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s
most beneficial to the “controller” of the effect.

So both of those effects are the Druid's own abilities. Natural Bond is her feat, and the negative modifier for a stronger companion is hers as well. She gets to apply those in the order that's most beneficial to her character. So she's a Druid 9, -7 for the tiger brings her to Druid 2, then +3 for Natural Bond brings her to Druid 5, which doesn't exceed her Druid class level. Just be glad she didn't pick a fleshraker dinosaur or similar for her companion.

[Carden-Gix'oth]

The 3.5 Main D&D FAQ (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a) has the following to say about this (page 51, first question on the page):



So both of those effects are the Druid's own abilities. Natural Bond is her feat, and the negative modifier for a stronger companion is hers as well. She gets to apply those in the order that's most beneficial to her character. So she's a Druid 9, -7 for the tiger brings her to Druid 2, then +3 for Natural Bond brings her to Druid 5, which doesn't exceed her Druid class level. Just be glad she didn't pick a fleshraker dinosaur or similar for her companion.

Ah. Thanks. Now I have an actual ruling. Thank you my dude. Also, Tigers are slightly more busted than a Fleshraker. Granted, they don't have Poison. But if a Tiger makes a Charge Attack.... Let me break it down for you.

Pounce: Tiger makes a Charge Attack, they get to make a Full Attack Action at the end of it, plus 2 Rakes

Tiger's Full Attack: 2 Claws, 1 Bite.

Improved Grab: Whenever the Tiger lands a Bite, they may make a Grapple as a Free Action, and if they win, they may make a Rake Attack.

So, if a Tiger Pounces, and all attacks hit, we're talking 2 Claws, 1 Bite, 3 Rakes.

Her Tiger, as I said, is a bit larger than normal. It's a 12HD Tiger. (RNJesus really loved her during Character Creation), so the damage is 2d8+14 (1d8+7 for each Claw) +2d6+7 (Bite) +3d8+21 (3 Rake Attacks) for a total 5d8+35+2d6+7 damage.

Assuming all attacks hit, and it's a Charge Attack, and the Grapple is successful. Of course.

But Carden, that's a lot of "Ifs".

True... but here:
Tiger's bonus to hit? +15.
Tiger's grapple Modifier? +20.

And knowing Druid's player (I've played a bit of 5e with her), she's going to abuse the 9 Hells out of the mechanic (As any Druid player should!)....


EDIT: Spelling, cause I'm an idiot

[Gnaeus]

I don’t think an additional 2 hit dice and an extra ability really make the animal companion op, especially not at 10th level, and it obviously works by raw, so I would call it fine.

It depends A LOT on the optimization level of the party. I would say that the animal companion is op before the boost, and more so after.

That said, I was in a campaign once where the DM cloned every monster encounter, and my pet and I habitually soloed 1 creature and the other 3 PCs fought the other, and about 50% of the time I would finish first and then stop and heal myself or kill steal theirs. And obviously if my pet were stronger we would have won even faster. I guess in a tier 1-3 high op party this trick is no big thing. But I’d put it in a basket with stuff like dragon wrought kobolds getting 2 free levels or using planar binding for 50 minions as “arguably raw but should never be used unless the DM says something like “break the game, go nuts””.


Ah. Thanks. Now I have an actual ruling. Thank you my dude. Also, Tigers are slightly more busted than a Fleshraker. Granted, they don't have Poison. But if a Tiger makes a Charge Attack.... Let me break it down for you.
The poison enables the Venomfire, which is an extra CLd6 per attack. So at 10 that’s like 35 extra damage on both claws and tail. That 105 damage outdamages tiger before you include the raker’s normal damage. And combines better with things like AOOs or haste.

Also, the tiger isn’t strong because RNG. It’s strong because houserule. Animal companions typically use the base creature, not an advanced one. Insert discussion of warbeast template here.

[Carden-Gix'oth]

It depends A LOT on the optimization level of the party. I would say that the animal companion is op before the boost, and more so after.

That said, I was in a campaign once where the DM cloned every monster encounter, and my pet and I habitually soloed 1 creature and the other 3 PCs fought the other, and about 50% of the time I would finish first and then stop and heal myself or kill steal theirs. And obviously if my pet were stronger we would have won even faster. I guess in a tier 1-3 high op party this trick is no big thing. But I’d put it in a basket with stuff like dragon wrought kobolds getting 2 free levels or using planar binding for 50 minions as “arguably raw but should never be used unless the DM says something like “break the game, go nuts””.


The poison enables the Venomfire, which is an extra CLd6 per attack.

Also, the tiger isn’t strong because RNG. It’s strong because houserule. Animal companions typically use the base creature, not an advanced one. Insert discussion of warbeast template here.

Base Creature damage:
Bite: 2d6+3
Claws: 1d8+6
Rake: 1d8+3

If Charge/Pounce hits, and Grapple is won, that's 5d8+21+2d6+3. Starting as a 12HD Tiger, while certainly helpful, didn't boost it that much. 76 Max Potential Damage from base creature. 94 Max Potential Damage from full Pounce/Charge using the 12HD Tiger. 18 extra damage, at max potential. Not all that much in the grand scheme of 3.5e. Certainly a good boost.

Also, I'm not seeing Venomfire on the Fleshraker statblock. Care to share?

EDIT: Nevermind. Found it. It's a Spell from Serpent Kingdoms. That is... deliciously evil, and I'm going to be using that.... Thank you.

[Gnaeus]

Base Creature damage:
Bite: 2d6+3
Claws: 1d8+6
Rake: 1d8+3

If Charge/Pounce hits, and Grapple is won, that's 5d8+21+2d6+3. Starting as a 12HD Tiger, while certainly helpful, didn't boost it that much. 76 Max Potential Damage from base creature. 94 Max Potential Damage from full Pounce/Charge using the 12HD Tiger. 18 extra damage, at max potential. Not all that much in the grand scheme of 3.5e. Certainly a good boost.

Also, I'm not seeing Venomfire on the Fleshraker statblock. Care to share?

It’s a spell that adds CLd6 acid damage to your poisoned attacks and lasts hour/level. Serpent kingdoms.

[Carden-Gix'oth]

It’s a spell that adds CLd6 acid damage to your poisoned attacks and lasts hour/level. Serpent kingdoms.

Yup. +1d6 Acid damage per caster level, with no cap. Lasts 1 Hour/Level. Only down side is a Ring of Universal Elemental Immunity negates it. Or being a Stonechild. Or just planning ahead and getting Acid Resistance. The Bard, the Sacred Fist, and the Rogue/Chameleon are all power gamers. I'll get to use that all of one time before it's useless. Still, that one time could be very devastating.... I'll have to make it count in one of the harder fights, though......

[Gnaeus]

Yup. +1d6 Acid damage per caster level, with no cap. Lasts 1 Hour/Level. Only down side is a Ring of Universal Elemental Immunity negates it. Or being a Stonechild. Or just planning ahead and getting Acid Resistance. The Bard, the Sacred Fist, and the Rogue/Chameleon are all power gamers. I'll get to use that all of one time before it's useless. Still, that one time could be very devastating.... I'll have to make it count in one of the harder fights, though......

I completely don’t understand how having a power gamer in your party makes that spell useless. Unless they are casting protection from acid on the stuff you are fighting or you are expecting a lot of pvp. But you the DM and clearly have some ideas so I’m glad I could help. /smallconfused

[Carden-Gix'oth]

I completely don’t understand how having a power gamer in your party makes that spell useless. Unless they are casting protection from acid on the stuff you are fighting or you are expecting a lot of pvp. But you the DM and clearly have some ideas so I’m glad I could help. /smallconfused

The 3 Powergamers are running a Paladin/Monk/Sacred Fist (so Paladin spells), A Bard (Yes, that kind of Bard), and a Rogue/Chameleon (so the Rogue will have Arcane spells, or Divine Spells, or no spells, or both [eventually] depending on what day it is). They have healing, buffing, debuffing, and anti-mage ****e on lockdown...

And to be fair, they kind of need to. I mean, I told them "This campaign is focusing on taking down the Cult of the Dragon, to stop them from bringing Tiamat to the Prime Material Plane. A lot of the Cult are spell casters, and in 3.5e Dragons cast spells like Sorcerers, without class levels. Keep that in mind". So if they didn't have buffing, debuffing, and anti-magic stuff out the ass, I'd be disappointed in them......

[daryen]

So both of those effects are the Druid's own abilities. Natural Bond is her feat, and the negative modifier for a stronger companion is hers as well. She gets to apply those in the order that's most beneficial to her character. So she's a Druid 9, -7 for the tiger brings her to Druid 2, then +3 for Natural Bond brings her to Druid 5, which doesn't exceed her Druid class level.

Note that this doesn't affect my interpretation in any way. The reason is because she remains a Druid 9 throughout the entire process. At no point is she ever Druid 2. Yes, the companion will operate at the Druid 2 level, but the actual druid is still at Druid 9. Therefore, the feat has no affect. There is no order to finesse; she remains Druid 9 throughout.

Again, this was just one interpretation and likely not the one most people use (though I still believe it is probably the one intended). Use whatever interpretation you want. But that FAQ entry has no effect on the interpretation I gave.

[daryen]

It does apply to Rangers, even with the technically correct RAI interpretation. And here's why. The Animal Companion ability states the following ...

This ability functions like the druid ability of the same name (see page 35), except that the ranger's effective druid level is one-half his ranger level.

Fair point. I withdraw my comment on Rangers then. (Plus, I forget that it is half-level rather than level-3. Read too much Pathfinder ...) In that case it is actually a big help, as the Ranger's companion quickly falls behind as they level up. (Honestly, I would always just house-rule the Pathfinder formula. Even before Pathfinder.)

I stand by the rest of the interpretation as still being a completely valid reading of the rules provided.

[liquidformat]

From everything I have seen Natural bond should work with advanced animal companions. If you want to boost things further checkout Ghost Tiger from 5 nations, also there is always warbeast template.

My favorite animal companion to use with venom fire is actually the Swindlespitter, who does love having a companion that can spit cones of blinding spray that can melt faces off. Also Swindlespitter is expressly a tool user!

[Carden-Gix'oth]

Fair point. I withdraw my comment on Rangers then. (Plus, I forget that it is half-level rather than level-3. Read too much Pathfinder ...) In that case it is actually a big help, as the Ranger's companion quickly falls behind as they level up. (Honestly, I would always just house-rule the Pathfinder formula. Even before Pathfinder.)

I stand by the rest of the interpretation as still being a completely valid reading of the rules provided.

Oh, I agree with all of that. ½ Ranger Level quickly makes their animal companion a liability in combat. And then they're locked off from the bigger animals for too long. I mean, the T-Rex is a Druid Level -15, so a Ranger would have to be level 32. 32/2=16-15=1, and any party worth their copper at level 32 would be able to take down a T-Rex with no issues. As would anything they're fighting at that level.


EDIT: Spelling again

[Gnaeus]

The 3 Powergamers are running a Paladin/Monk/Sacred Fist (so Paladin spells), A Bard (Yes, that kind of Bard), and a Rogue/Chameleon (so the Rogue will have Arcane spells, or Divine Spells, or no spells, or both [eventually] depending on what day it is). They have healing, buffing, debuffing, and anti-mage ****e on lockdown...

And to be fair, they kind of need to. I mean, I told them "This campaign is focusing on taking down the Cult of the Dragon, to stop them from bringing Tiamat to the Prime Material Plane. A lot of the Cult are spell casters, and in 3.5e Dragons cast spells like Sorcerers, without class levels. Keep that in mind". So if they didn't have buffing, debuffing, and anti-magic stuff out the ass, I'd be disappointed in them......

So, why is venomfire only likely to be used in one combat? None of those guys are likely to stop it from doing ludicrous damage every fight. If they are doing dispels, that should make it work better. I get that dragon cultists have a lot of casters, but I wouldn’t think most of them sit around spamming acid resistance all the time.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

It's fine to include. At lvl 10, the Animal Companion is starting to lag behind, as it's a martial character with a bare handful of gear and no spellcasting. Adding a couple HD and bonuses isn't going to change that without either investing a lot of money in gear or going the Exalted Companion-VOP route.

Let's put it this way: A Tiger is CR 4. She's now a Druid 5 for it, meaning Tiger gets +2 HD, +2 AC, +1 Str, +1 Dex, and Evasion. Does a CR 4 with that sound like a CR 10 encounter? No. It sounds like CR 6. Toss on barding and a couple buffs and it's better, but still not all that scary. Yes, it can do stuff that your Fighter can't, but not enough to be a major concern. At lvl 4, Natural Bond giving an advanced Leopard is a big deal, but by now, non-flying melee combatants with few abilities beyond damage are just becoming less relevant.

[Darg]

RAW it is pretty clear. Both instances explicitly state they affect effective druid level when it comes to the companion. Honestly it really isn't all that much stronger with the feat than without. I wouldn't have a problem with it and it seems you don't have a problem with it. In fact it seems like you were hoping it would be that way.


At lvl 4, Natural Bond giving an advanced Leopard is a big deal

I am pretty sure that natural bond does not let you pick alternate companions as if your druid is higher level because it explicitly states what bonuses your companion gets.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

I am pretty sure that natural bond does not let you pick alternate companions as if your druid is higher level because it explicitly states what bonuses your companion gets.Leopard is a lvl 4 Animal Companion.

[Elkad]

It's interpretable either way.

In that party, it's probably fine.

In a party of lower tier / less optimized characters? Probably should take the more restrictive reading - which is that it's only useful if you actually lose druid levels (multiclassing, rangers, etc).


In my houserules I use the more restrictive reading, but Druid and Ranger also have swapped progression. Druid is half-level, starting at L2. Rangers get a full AC right out of the box. So it's useful to the Druid at my table immediately, and useful to the Ranger only if he dips something else (scout, barb, etc).