Totem Warrior Barbarian 6 Eagle Totem - does it clash with the rest of the class?

[Segev]

I would probably never have paid much attention to this ability if it hadn't been pointed out that it could be used to cheese some amusing but largely impractical mile-long darkvision (with a drow or svirfneblin) or Devil's Sight (with a Warlock), but since I have seen it, I now am trying to figure out if there's any really practical way to make use of it.

Barbarians, let's face it, are not ranged characters. Sure, they can fight at range, and not suck horribly at it. They are proficient with bows and they can even get rage damage on some thrown weapons that let them use strength. But they get their most benefit in melee, or at least very close range (thrown weapons aren't the longest-range things in the game).

Ignoring the darkvision question, let's just ask this: what use does a level 6 Barbarian have for seeing clearly enough to make out heraldry at a mile? It's thematic, that's for sure, and it's nice to be able to pseudo-scout on an open road or field by just Dwayne Johnson Smoldering into the distance, but it'll be rare to have that kind of scouting be practical without still having to move out ahead.

You could take a Barbarian 6 Eagle Totem and give him Sharpshooter; he doesn't technically get any benefit from Eagle Totem to help out with that, though, as everyone can see even out to a longbow's long range well enough to attack without disadvantage.

Frankly, I don't even see how it's useful to purely ranged builds, unless you do cheese the darkvision/Devil's Sight. A sorcerer/barbarian/warlock who is either a drow or also has devil's sight with Agonizing Blast, Eldritch Spear, Distant Spell, and Spell Sniper could fire eldrich blasts up to 1,200 feet away, which is I think the longest-range attack possible in the game, but that's a minimum of Sorc 3/Warlock 2/Barbarian 6 to get all of that if you're a drow. Warlock 5 or give up agonizing blast or half that range if you're not, because you need Devil's Sight.


So, with or without super-far darkvision, does the Eagle Eye power do much for any character? Does it do much for a straight barbarian? Are there any builds that could really take advantage of it, with or without the cheese for mile-long darkvision?

[Quietus]

I would probably never have paid much attention to this ability if it hadn't been pointed out that it could be used to cheese some amusing but largely impractical mile-long darkvision (with a drow or svirfneblin) or Devil's Sight (with a Warlock), but since I have seen it, I now am trying to figure out if there's any really practical way to make use of it.

Barbarians, let's face it, are not ranged characters. Sure, they can fight at range, and not suck horribly at it. They are proficient with bows and they can even get rage damage on some thrown weapons that let them use strength. But they get their most benefit in melee, or at least very close range (thrown weapons aren't the longest-range things in the game).

Ignoring the darkvision question, let's just ask this: what use does a level 6 Barbarian have for seeing clearly enough to make out heraldry at a mile? It's thematic, that's for sure, and it's nice to be able to pseudo-scout on an open road or field by just Dwayne Johnson Smoldering into the distance, but it'll be rare to have that kind of scouting be practical without still having to move out ahead.

You could take a Barbarian 6 Eagle Totem and give him Sharpshooter; he doesn't technically get any benefit from Eagle Totem to help out with that, though, as everyone can see even out to a longbow's long range well enough to attack without disadvantage.

Frankly, I don't even see how it's useful to purely ranged builds, unless you do cheese the darkvision/Devil's Sight. A sorcerer/barbarian/warlock who is either a drow or also has devil's sight with Agonizing Blast, Eldritch Spear, Distant Spell, and Spell Sniper could fire eldrich blasts up to 1,200 feet away, which is I think the longest-range attack possible in the game, but that's a minimum of Sorc 3/Warlock 2/Barbarian 6 to get all of that if you're a drow. Warlock 5 or give up agonizing blast or half that range if you're not, because you need Devil's Sight.


So, with or without super-far darkvision, does the Eagle Eye power do much for any character? Does it do much for a straight barbarian? Are there any builds that could really take advantage of it, with or without the cheese for mile-long darkvision?

With this approach, what Eyes of the Eagle does is make you a perfect scout. If you have a straight line to something, you can see it. In pitch black conditions, through magical darkness (if warlock), etc. It's worth noting that you can use the Shadow sorcerer subclass to get 120 foot darkvision, so you could build Totem Barb6/Shadow Sorc 1 to get your one mile darkvision. Save your rages for when you need to be front line, use sorcerer to build up your out of combat capability, maybe throw some Paladin in there for smites, or Warlock for EB shenanigans. I actually think this would be a pretty reasonable build to work with, and could be finessed to have few, or no, levels lacking in impact.

[jas61292]

I would probably never have paid much attention to this ability if it hadn't been pointed out that it could be used to cheese some amusing but largely impractical mile-long darkvision (with a drow or svirfneblin) or Devil's Sight (with a Warlock), but since I have seen it, I now am trying to figure out if there's any really practical way to make use of it.

Barbarians, let's face it, are not ranged characters. Sure, they can fight at range, and not suck horribly at it. They are proficient with bows and they can even get rage damage on some thrown weapons that let them use strength. But they get their most benefit in melee, or at least very close range (thrown weapons aren't the longest-range things in the game).

Ignoring the darkvision question, let's just ask this: what use does a level 6 Barbarian have for seeing clearly enough to make out heraldry at a mile? It's thematic, that's for sure, and it's nice to be able to pseudo-scout on an open road or field by just Dwayne Johnson Smoldering into the distance, but it'll be rare to have that kind of scouting be practical without still having to move out ahead.

You could take a Barbarian 6 Eagle Totem and give him Sharpshooter; he doesn't technically get any benefit from Eagle Totem to help out with that, though, as everyone can see even out to a longbow's long range well enough to attack without disadvantage.

Frankly, I don't even see how it's useful to purely ranged builds, unless you do cheese the darkvision/Devil's Sight. A sorcerer/barbarian/warlock who is either a drow or also has devil's sight with Agonizing Blast, Eldritch Spear, Distant Spell, and Spell Sniper could fire eldrich blasts up to 1,200 feet away, which is I think the longest-range attack possible in the game, but that's a minimum of Sorc 3/Warlock 2/Barbarian 6 to get all of that if you're a drow. Warlock 5 or give up agonizing blast or half that range if you're not, because you need Devil's Sight.


So, with or without super-far darkvision, does the Eagle Eye power do much for any character? Does it do much for a straight barbarian? Are there any builds that could really take advantage of it, with or without the cheese for mile-long darkvision?

This is 100% an exploration ability. Combat does not come into it. A person can naturally see far further than they can shoot or cast. Heck, if the conditions are right, a person can naturally see far further than a mile. The advantage of this ability is the detail they can get from that distance. It allows them to get the effectiveness of close range scouting, without needing to actually be close. And of course, lets them see things in dim light perfectly clearly. That is a huge ability for the exploration pillar of the game. But no, it is not really doing anything to improve your ability in combat.

That said, that is perfectly fine. All the level 6 Totem abilities are non-combat abilities. If anything, I think Eagle does the most to expand the role of the Barbarian, by making them good scouts. If you really want to take advantage on this and dip over in rogue or something for Expertise in Perception, then sure, you can do that and be the best scout there ever was. But I think the ability is very solid on its own already.

[Damon_Tor]

A spellcaster could cast True Seeing on the barbarian. Normally True Seeing only works to a range of 120 feet, but in theory this extends it to a mile. That's a mile-long radius of illusion detection, invisibility piercing, and seeing into the ethereal plane. In combination with the darkvision shenanigans you mentioned earlier, who could sneak up on an encampment thusly guarded? Or if you've managed to track the bad guy's lair to a certain valley and have it on good authority he uses Illusions to hide it, you can send the barbarian up to an overlook and enchant his vision thusly.

It's not a combat benefit, but as a narrative tool its very powerful. It's probably the most useful of the level 6 features.

[Segev]

I'd actually forgotten Eagle Totem also made you able to see without disadvantage in dim lighting. This actually greatly reduces the gap between mile-long darkvision and mile-long Devil's Sight. The latter's only remaining advantage is color vision which, while nice, isn't essential for most purposes.

Good point on the exploration part of the game. I'm still struggling to think of use cases, though, in real play. My primary experience is the ToA game I've been running, and while exploration's a big part of it up until recently, there's rarely been an instance where seeing that sharply a mile out would have helped more than just having the vantage point. I say "rarely" merely because I don't know for sure there hasn't been one that I don't remember since it didn't come up. (They only just now reached 6th level. Seeing for a mile as if it were 100 feet would cover the whole ruined city they're currently exploring, if you got up above it. Maybe I would be forced to determine where, exactly, random encounter possibilities actually were if they did it that way.)

[elyktsorb]

I'm not sure how reading works. The description of the ability state that they are "able to discern even fine details as though looking at something no more than 100 feet away from you" if this means that you could make out how a statue looked from 100 ft away, and assuming the maximum distance a character can read from is 5ft. The Barbarian would be able to easily read any writing within 250 ft of him.

[Fable Wright]

Combine with the Observer feat. You're able to "listen in" on conversations from a distance of 1 mile, in addition to being able to have a massive passive perception at a range of 1 mile.

This is significant out of combat utility.

[Segev]

Can you read lips from 100 feet away?



And as written, it only says that you see out to a mile as well as you do at 100 feet; it doesn't say everything is proportionately closer. That said, if a DM ruled that way, it would make for even more awesomeness as the "illiterate barbarian" is reading the noble's spy report from across the street.

[elyktsorb]

Can you read lips from 100 feet away?



And as written, it only says that you see out to a mile as well as you do at 100 feet; it doesn't say everything is proportionately closer. That said, if a DM ruled that way, it would make for even more awesomeness as the "illiterate barbarian" is reading the noble's spy report from across the street.

Well actually it says you are "able to discern even fine details as though looking at something no more than 100 feet away from you" which sounds weird because the way this is typed implies that you should be able to make out the 'fine' details of something from 100 feet away, and typically you'd define fine details, let's say on a statue, as engraving on a plaque at the base, or to see if it's got any small cracks or anything on it. Which is why I gave the rough estimate of being able to read anything 250ft away. If the ability is to be taken as implied, then you could potentially read lips from a mile away. An issue is, no where is range of sight, really defined.

[Segev]

Well actually it says you are "able to discern even fine details as though looking at something no more than 100 feet away from you" which sounds weird because the way this is typed implies that you should be able to make out the 'fine' details of something from 100 feet away, and typically you'd define fine details, let's say on a statue, as engraving on a plaque at the base, or to see if it's got any small cracks or anything on it. Which is why I gave the rough estimate of being able to read anything 250ft away. If the ability is to be taken as implied, then you could potentially read lips from a mile away. An issue is, no where is range of sight, really defined.

Conducting an entirely unscientific experiment by taking 33 steps away from a fire extinguisher at the end of a hallway, I can say that at about 100 feet, I can make out the fire extinguisher and identify it for what it is, but definitely not read any writing on it. I can make out the word "FIRE" on the sign with an arrow over it, but not "EXTINGUISHER" below that. I can read the "EXIT" on the fire exit sign nearby.

The sign labeling the fire extinguisher has "FIRE" written in block letters approximately 3-4 inches tall. "EXTINGUISHER" below it is about 1 inch tall. So at 100 feet, with my contacts in (which give me 20/20 vision), I can make out writing 3-4 inches tall but not 1 inch tall. At a stretch, maybe I could make out 2 inch tall writing, but I wouldn't bet on it.

That should be plenty to make out any road signs, including medieval-era ones, as well as tabards, heraldry, and probably even individual builds and features sufficient to make out people you know by face. You could likely match a photo of somebody with them from that distance, provided they weren't taking pains to look different. For scouting, say, an army, this means you could pretty easily pick out the captain or the general, rather than having them be lost in a sea of undifferentiable humanoid-ish blurs. You could definitely tell what each soldier was armed with.

In exploration and foraging, you could make out individual plants and their leaves, and thus likely identify them if you've the knowledge, from a mile away. Leaves are generally 2-3 inches. Berries might be harder to use as markers, since they'd be well under 1 inch in diameter in most cases.

Because you can see just fine with dim light, any camp fires in the places you're scoping out would provide a MINIMUM of 40 feet of what may as well be bright light to you (and that's assuming camp fires offer no more light than a torch). And that's assuming you haven't got darkvision or devil's sight that extends far enough for the rules quirk to catch it and take it to a mile. (If you're going with the idea that it actually multiplies your visual distance by 52.8 rather than just setting everything at 100 feet or further to the same level of acuity, any darkvision will get extended, too.)

No reading anybody's journals over their shoulders from this distance, but you can definitely make out their t-shirt's large block lettering, or their protest signs, etc.

[elyktsorb]

No reading anybody's journals over their shoulders from this distance, but you can definitely make out their t-shirt's large block lettering, or their protest signs, etc.

If they had a Spyglass would they be able to make out journals from those distances, with the fact that all a Spyglass does is increase whatever you look at by double its size and it's maximum distance is your own sight?

[Segev]

If they had a Spyglass would they be able to make out journals from those distances, with the fact that all a Spyglass does is increase whatever you look at by double its size and it's maximum distance is your own sight?

Definitely a DM ruling, there. I can see justification.



All of this is nice and such, but I'd like to wrap back around: you don't build a character around one solitary 6th level feature. But ideally, your 6th level feature complements the rest of your build. The Bear Totem level 6 feature plays into the ongoing theme of "tough" and "strong" and "durable," but it also is useful if you ever engage grappling rules (which barbarians have some hefty advantages in doing) because of how it increases your ability to just pick up and carry creatures you grab. (I honestly forgot what the wolf level 6 feature is.)


Is there anything about the Eagle Totem mechanic at 6th level that makes it work better being part of the barbarian chassis than it would in any other class? Or at least that makes barbarian a good one for it beyond "it's the only way to get it?" How do you build your barbarian such that this feature is a complementary part of the build and not its own facet, only complementing non-class choices like feats or race or cross-class choices like Devil's Sight or Shadow Sorcerer?


Let's say you build a drow barbarian with the goal of taking this feature. What else do you do with him to prepare for it? Or is "just build any barbarian you like" the only advice possible because Eagle Totem Level 6 is its own thing and works equally well with any barbarian build, since it won't complement any of them?

[elyktsorb]

I mean at least 6th Level Totem Barbarian Eagle option is 1 individual option out of 4 others you could also be taking. Unlike a few other class abilities I can think of that don't mesh with your class overall, and don't give you other options.

I don't think it clashes with the Class, given it's supposed to be animal based. Heck it's not nearly as bad as being able to jump 10 more feat when raging, the tiger option at 3rd lvl.

[Sorinth]

Both attributes override the general sight rules but the order they apply matters. If Darkvision is applied last then it overrides seeing up to a mile with the darkvision range, if the Eagle totem applies last then yeah you could see up to a mile.

I don't think RAW there is anything that would indicate which way it's supposed to go, but it would have to be a pretty lenient DM to give you darkvision of a mile since RAI is most likely you are still limited by your darkvision range.

[Segev]

Both attributes override the general sight rules but the order they apply matters. If Darkvision is applied last then it overrides seeing up to a mile with the darkvision range, if the Eagle totem applies last then yeah you could see up to a mile.

I don't think RAW there is anything that would indicate which way it's supposed to go, but it would have to be a pretty lenient DM to give you darkvision of a mile since RAI is most likely you are still limited by your darkvision range.

Oh, it's definitely something you need to ask your DM about.

Which is why at least half my question in this thread is just over the ability without darkvision/devil's sight and how much it contributes to an overall build vs. just being an extra thing you might choose to do on the side of any barbarian build you like.

I suppose what bugs me about it is that it seems cool enough to build a character around, but you're left with a bunch of cruft that doesn't naturally contribute to nor exploit it and so have to find another character to smoosh together with it rather than building off the idea.

[LudicSavant]

IMHO Eagle is the best level 6 totem ability in core (Tiger is good too, from SCAG).

Wolf 6 is a complete and utter joke, inferior to Elk 6 in every way. Let me put it this way: Elk makes the entire party's Slow travel speed equal to a Wolf-barian's Fast travel speed. Wolf 6's entire ability is to let your Barbarian move at a Normal or Fast speed for certain actions instead of a Slow one. See the issue here? Elk accomplishes what Wolf does plus more. It's strictly superior.

Bear 6 is... well, we had at least two whole threads recently about how poorly lift/drag/pull feats scale in 5e, even with Bear. (Here's links for the two threads I just mentioned)
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?609791-Barbarians-Feel-Weak
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?609875-Cubic-strength-and-carry-capacity

Eagle 6 gives you two actually useful scouting abilities (52.8x zoom vision, and ignoring the dim light penalty which normally harries even those with Darkvision).

[Segev]

IMHO Eagle is the best level 6 totem ability in core (Tiger is good too, from SCAG).

Wolf 6 is a complete and utter joke, inferior to Elk 6 in every way. Let me put it this way: Elk makes the entire party's Slow travel speed equal to a Wolf-barian's Fast travel speed. Wolf 6's entire ability is to let your Barbarian move at a Normal or Fast speed for certain actions instead of a Slow one. See the issue here? Elk accomplishes what Wolf does plus more. A rare example of one ability being strictly better than another.

Bear 6 is... well, we had two whole threads recently about how poorly lift/drag/pull feats scale in 5e, even with Bear. (Here's links for the two threads I just mentioned)
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?609791-Barbarians-Feel-Weak
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?609875-Cubic-strength-and-carry-capacity

Eagle 6 gives you two actually useful scouting abilities (52.8x zoom vision, and ignoring the dim light penalty which normally harries even those with Darkvision).

I don't disagree. Can't comment on wolf vs. elk - is one overpowered or the other underpowered? - but Bear at least - even if it's insufficient - gives you something that plays into the Barbarian fantasy of being The Big Guy. (I know, we discussed at length how the class kind-of fails at that due to how strength and carrying capacity scale, but it at least contributes.)

What Barbarian fantasy does Eagle Eyes contribute to? And does anything else in the class contribute to it?

This isn't me idly complaining, but rather trying to wrap my head around a character design problem. I've had in my head the notion of playing a drow who just runs Barb 6, but not only can't I figure out what else to do with him after that, I can't really figure out what would be fun to do with him before it. The Eagle Eyes thing just lends itself to such a different conceptual space than the rest of the class, to me. If I started with "I'll play a Barbarian" and then got to level 6, I could see, "eh, Eagle Eyes sounds fun," so the fact that it's not really contributing to a build and is just this extra thing on the side isn't a big deal. But when it's the inspiring point for thinking about a character, it becomes harder. A "drow barbarian" just seems off-kilter, to me. I know you can make one and have it be fine. That's not my issue.

Maybe I'm not explaining it well.

But I was hoping people would have some ideas for what build choices in the Barbarian class can help make a character for whom Eagle Eyes is like the Illusionist getting Malleable Illusions. The point where the character "clicks" into his stride. With an Illusionist, obviously, you take illusion spells in preparation for Malleable Illusions. With Barbarian, I mean, you can do any Barbarian things you want leading up to Eagle Eyes and it won't make that a wasted ability at level 6, but if that's the prize on which you've set your not-yet-eagle eyes, it feels like you're faffing about with placeholder abilities that don't really matter until you get the one that does, and then you should probably get out of the class to find something that will feel more engaging by somehow working together with it.

Does that make sense?

What I'm hoping for is some ideas of what a barbarian 6 with that feature could look like and be fun playing its way up there, and maybe have enough going for it to continue the class onwards. With the Eagle Eyes as the... cornerstone, I guess. Not capstone, obviously. The thing that you're obviously working towards making cool.

[LudicSavant]

I don't disagree. Can't comment on wolf vs. elk - is one overpowered or the other underpowered? Judging by the fact that optimizers don't auto-pick Elk over Tiger or Eagle, and that Barbarian non-combat utility isn't all that either way, I'd say that Wolf is underpowered.


What Barbarian fantasy does Eagle Eyes contribute to? And does anything else in the class contribute to it? That of being the eagle-eyed scout, or the primeval man with their senses honed to a knife's edge by a wild life. Or perhaps the hunter looking out over the vast steppe like a hawk, spotting his scurrying prey from a vast distance before swooping in with alarming swiftness.

Keen senses are a staple of barbarians in fantasy fiction. For example, Conan was described as having excellent eyesight (including excellent night vision (https://i.imgur.com/vEk7TOE.png)), Wolverine-like feats of smell, the ability to feel the hoofbeats of cavalry a long distance off, or hearing so well that he could fight blind (several times) and other such feats, and being so accustomed to a dangerous life that he slept like a cat, fully aware of his surroundings and ready to react whilst simultaneously getting plenty of rest (and this is demonstrated by him doing things like catching an assassin's dagger when he sleeps, etc).

If anything I think Barbarians could use more non-combat stuff like this. Possibly a lot more. But I feel that way about most martials in 5e.

[Sorinth]

Oh, it's definitely something you need to ask your DM about.

Which is why at least half my question in this thread is just over the ability without darkvision/devil's sight and how much it contributes to an overall build vs. just being an extra thing you might choose to do on the side of any barbarian build you like.

I suppose what bugs me about it is that it seems cool enough to build a character around, but you're left with a bunch of cruft that doesn't naturally contribute to nor exploit it and so have to find another character to smoosh together with it rather than building off the idea.

Barbarians make good scouts, they don't need heavy armor so have no penalties to Stealth, likely have a decent Dex score, so if they take Stealth as a proficency they do the job well. Fast Movement and Feveral Instinct also greatly help you in a scouting role since there will be times you are caught out alone, and being able to react and retreat along with your sizeable hit point base means if you are ambushed when alone you will likely escape.

Eagle Eyes plays into that role. The first part means in theory you should auto-succeed some perception checks that previously you would have needed a roll. But it's somewhat DM dependent, as there are no straight mechanics there, and it's unclear how it works at night with Darkvision. The second part about not imposing Disadvantage is really the main reason to take this feature (Assuming you also have Darkvision). It's often forgotten that in darkness anything with Darkvision still has disadvantage on their Perception checks because Darkvision only makes it equivalent to Dim Light. So while scouting in such conditions you make your perception checks on a normal roll (Darkvision makes it Dim Light, and Dim Light doesn't impose disadvantage) while enemies will be rolling at disadvantage to notice you. So you are much more likely to spot the enemy while remaining hidden while say exploring the Underdark.

[Guy Lombard-O]

That of being the eagle-eyed scout, or the primeval man with their senses honed to a knife's edge by a wild life. Or perhaps the hunter looking out over the vast steppe like a hawk, spotting his scurrying prey from a vast distance before swooping in with alarming swiftness.

Keen senses are a staple of barbarians in fantasy fiction.

I certainly see what the OP is saying about how integrated it is to the build, though. Sure, it does fit the theme of an animalistic barbarian such as the totem path presents, at least to some degree. But even the examples above sound they'd be equally at home in the ranger class, or maybe the Scout rogue. And then it would be accompanied by other abilities which meshed well with it to create a more coherent set of abilities which support that theme.

Personally, I don't see any particular thematic or mechanical element which binds the Eagle Eye to barbarian any more than a number of other classes. It's not wildly out of place in barbarian either, but just not a great and obvious fit.

[Segev]

In good news, at least from the perspective of me playing around with the notion, I have some thoughts on a silly-sounding, but actually could-be-played-seriously character:

Drow Spider Farmer. Or would that be rancher?

He grew up in the outskirts of the Underdark cities of his kind, and may or may not have known his parents very well. Urchin background (which is weird for me, as I find its feature grossly underwhelming, but I'm adapting it a bit). Instead of a disguise kit proficiency, he has weavers' tools proficiency. From Barbarian, he takes Animal Handling and Nature proficiency. His pet mouse is, instead, a pet spider or, better still, a collection of spiders that he's gathered and keeps more-or-less trained and tamed with his Animal Handling and Nature skills. He doesn't know the secrets to formulating drow poison, but he harvests a lot of one of the ingredients (spider venom).

Con primary, Dex secondary, Int and Str competing for tertiary, he doesn't get a ton of use out of Rage, but at least the resistance to most physical damage combined with a hopefully-reasonable AC from Unarmored Defense will make up for it. In combat, he dual-wields daggers (or possibly other light weapons), using a finesse one in his on hand and (finesse or not) attacking with strength with his off-hand as a bonus action. Rage damage bonus applies to all melee attacks, and the off-hand rule of not adding your stat mod doesn't apply to the rage damage bonus. If his Dex mod is at least 2 higher than his Str mod, the rage damage bonus is a wash with just using Dex, and the higher accuracy with Dex will be desirable. But with his off hand, the Rage damage bonus is bigger than 0; it's just a question of whether the accuracy loss for using Str hurts too much. Reckless Attacking should help, there.

Sure, with Int as, at best, tertiary, the Intelligence(Nature) roll to harvest poison from his spider farm is hard, and he's going to fail by 5 or more a fair bit, but that's what the high Constitution is for, and it's only 2 points of poison damage. Doing it as part of his profession, it's entirely doable. Amusingly, if his pets attack individually, nothing prevents using a skill while raging (at least, I don't think it does; I'll need to check again), and resistance to piercing damage would reduce the maximum 1 point of damage the spiders can do to 0, so he can't get poisoned by them while harvesting. Except that's not how the harvesting rules are written, so...eh. Still, he can handle the small amount of damage, and can probably harvest a handful of doses of spider venom a day without interfering with other adventuring activities. Sure, it's only DC 9 and only 2 extra poison damage on a failed save, but it's something.

Aside from the excuse to have "pet spiders" instead of a pet mouse, what Urchin brings to the table is an easily-modified Feature: instead of knowing the fastest ways across town, he knows how to find hiding spots, particularly for spiders, insects, and other vermin, which lets him sell services as an exterminator and/or just go in and find and collect more such things.


Sadly, this doesn't play directly into the eagle eyes, thing, but it does provide a nice cohesive Drow Barbarian design, which just happens to eventually get very good at seeing in the dark. With Urchin, the Stealth proficiency also means he can augment his potential as a scout further.


Equally sadly, with the exception of the Eagle Eye power that prompted this thread, that whole concept probably still works better as a Rogue. :smallsigh:

[Sorinth]

I certainly see what the OP is saying about how integrated it is to the build, though. Sure, it does fit the theme of an animalistic barbarian such as the totem path presents, at least to some degree. But even the examples above sound they'd be equally at home in the ranger class, or maybe the Scout rogue. And then it would be accompanied by other abilities which meshed well with it to create a more coherent set of abilities which support that theme.

Personally, I don't see any particular thematic or mechanical element which binds the Eagle Eye to barbarian any more than a number of other classes. It's not wildly out of place in barbarian either, but just not a great and obvious fit.

There are many features that would be equally at home on a different class, and in fact many features actually do end up on multiple lists so I'm not sure how that is a good argument.

For Barbarian with regards to scouting he has a number of related skills. Danger Sense and Feral Instincts line right up alongside the level 6 Wolf, Elk, Eagle options for a scouting. So I fail to see how he doesn't have a set of coherent abilities or how Eagle totem somehow sticks out from the bunch. And it's not like any of those abilities wouldn't make sense on a Ranger or Rogue either. And that doesn't even include things like Unarmored Defense, Fast Movement, Spirit Seeker which all also help with the scouting role/theme even when not the primary purpose.

In 5e the made the design choice to disassociate party role and character class as much as they could so that almost any class could fill almost any role. So if you want to fuffill a Scouting role you aren't forced to choose Rogue, even though it's the classic class for that role.