Ua: Psionic options revisited [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

MaxWilson

2020-04-14, 01:02 PM

I appreciate the fact that they spend time explaining their design reasoning up front.

Edit: additional feedback.

Psychic Warrior is actually rather good. Since your psi die is essentially unlimited, you get a minor damage boost all the time and a minor protection boost all the time, plus extra mobility on the order of +10 movement per turn for "free". Not terrible. Add in the other features on top and it starts to become rather good. A Polearm Master GWM Psi Knight using Psionic Thrust to knock enemies prone could be quite a powerhouse.

Psi die is essentially unlimited because it's always as likely to grow as to shrink. It's not actually literally unlimited because random walks will eventually walk down to zero, but even if you get unlucky and it goes to zero, you can still replenish it back to full once per long rest. A quick Monte Carlo sim over 1000 trials tells me that you can on average expect the following number of psi dice at each level before running out:

Level 3 (d6): 31.1 rolls before running out, average bonus +3.488641
Level 5 (d8): 76.4 rolls before running out, average bonus +4.146024
Level 11 (d10): 158.1 rolls before running out, average bonus +4.813687
Level 17 (d12): 288.5 rolls before running out, average bonus +5.520680

Those bonuses are for Int 10 (+0). Obviously if you have e.g. INT 16 you add +3 to all those numbers and your average at 17th level goes up to 8.52.

This makes Tower of Iron Will a potentially amazing feat, especially since as written you get to declare it after the failure. Hobgoblin Monk 14/Paladin 6 w/ Wild Talent + Tower of Iron Will feats = never fails saves? That it's usable on others is even better.

let dieSequence = [10; 8;6;4]

let r = System.Random()
let measure (dieSequence: int list) =
let m() =
let mutable psidieIx = 0
let rolls =
[while psidieIx < dieSequence.Length do
let d = dieSequence.[psidieIx]
let n = 1 + r.Next(d)
yield n
if n = 1 && psidieIx > 0 then
psidieIx <- psidieIx - 1
elif n = d then
psidieIx <- psidieIx + 1]
rolls |> List.length, rolls |> List.averageBy float
let l = List.init 1000 (fun _ -> m())
l |> List.averageBy (fst >> float), l |> List.averageBy snd
measure [6;4] |> (fun (rolls, avg) -> printfn "Level 3 (d6): %.1f rolls before running out, average bonus +%f" (rolls * 2.) avg)
measure [8;6;4] |> (fun (rolls, avg) -> printfn "Level 5 (d8): %.1f rolls before running out, average bonus +%f" (rolls * 2.) avg)
measure [10;8;6;4] |> (fun (rolls, avg) -> printfn "Level 11 (d10): %.1f rolls before running out, average bonus +%f" (rolls * 2.) avg)
measure [12;10;8;6;4] |> (fun (rolls, avg) -> printfn "Level 17 (d12): %.1f rolls before running out, average bonus +%f" (rolls * 2.) avg)

Daphne

2020-04-14, 01:11 PM

I dislike the changing dice mechanic, seems too RNG for me. You could end up losing you dice at the first fight of the day.

I also think these psionic spells should target WIS instead of INT.

MaxWilson

2020-04-14, 01:17 PM

I dislike the changing dice mechanic, seems too RNG for me. You could end up losing you dice at the first fight of the day.

Eh, not likely, due to the recharge-on-1 effect. It's functionally at-will, just with a bit of uncertainty added, but even there they let you recharge it back to full size once per long rest. In practice you'll never run out unless you deliberately do things that drain die size.

JumboWheat01

2020-04-14, 01:27 PM

I personally love the dice gimmick, and the Psi Knight in particular tickles my fancy. Jedi our way to victory.

Waazraath

2020-04-14, 01:39 PM

I appreciate the fact that they spend time explaining their design reasoning up front.

Yes, very nice. Though, when I read "Following that feedback, we’ve decided to say farewell to the mystic and explore other ways of giving players psi-themed powers, as we did with the features of the Great Old One warlock in the Player’s Handbook." I can't help thinking "huh, what??" I mean, nothing wrong with the GOO subclass, but I don't consider it particularly psionic themed. Yes, it makes a pact with abberations and some abberations are psionic in nature, but not all of them. The only part that could be considered 'psi-themed' is telepathy, but that's really psi-light, and it's a bit of a stretch to consider all telepathy 'psi', I think. Oh well.

GentlemanVoodoo

2020-04-14, 01:43 PM

Not a fan of what I read. The dice thing is just gimic for sake of being different. Seems more cumbersome to manage. There is no reason why the classic spells should be dropped along with the wizard subclass. Still makes no sense why the soul knife is a subclass of the rogue.

Dork_Forge

2020-04-14, 01:43 PM

Glad to see more Psionics but so far a mixed back in the wrong direction imo. I haven't gone over the spells or feats yet so will update later:

I'm glad they decided to ditch the Wizard school, it didn't make much sense to me to have a psionic school for the iconic spell caster, on the otherhand they appear to have given up on the Mystic, whether that just means its mechanics or also the idea of a dedicated psionicist I don't know but both are bad news to me.

The new die mechanic reminds me of a resource die from an old D&D adaption, where you'd only consume a resource by rolling a certain number and it decreasing. This just seems messy to track and adds unnecessary RNG into the game, if this was wild magic it would at least be more understandable, but I would rather have a definite number of uses that I can accurately track. Side note: this also makes things messy for online players, with the die changing (probably fairly frequently) you can't rely on just a set macro, needlessly annoying. There also need to be clarification, does Psi Replenishment overcome rolling a 4 on a d4?

Psi Knight: This just doesn't feel right, the protective feature seems okay, though it reminds me of Ancestrals Guardian Barbarian, but the bonus damage on one attack per turn just feels like it belongs on a Ranger. The leaping thing is a ribbon at best but it's one of three abilities so no problem there besides it using the die mechanic.

Soul Knife: The blades materialising at the moment of the strike and the disappearing sounds cool, but is unnecessarily locking that Rogue out of certain things. Usually taking Defensive Duelist would make sense on a Rogue thematically and mechanically, but you need to have a finesse weapon in hand for that for example. Just make things tidier and allow the Rogue to form one or both blades as their object interaction for the turn (this would also support throwing on the Rogue better). The offhand attack seems to add a modifier instead of using TWF rules, that's nice but would it really have broken anything to just let it continue to use a d6? Shifting it down only makes 1 point of difference on average and just gives you something else to remember that doesn't gel with anything else we currently have in the game for bonus action attacks (except PAM, which is a feat and changes potentially from a d10 to a d4, a much bigger balancing effect). The teleportation effect is neat, but just reminds me of that character from Overwatch. Psychic Veil is just a much crappier version of a spell casters got 10 levels ago.

Sorcerer: Holy reliance of the new die mechanic Batman! Why won't they just give abiltiies that reliably work, am I missing something, was Psionics THIS unreliable in older editions? Yo uget telepathy, but the amount of people is random! You get bonus damage, but unlike the Draconic Sorcerer and Celestial Warlock at that level it isn't your mod, it's your Psionics die! You could end up with more damage! But realistically you're just rolling more dice for a less powerful effect, woo. But hey, you can cast without components! Maybe... Oh wait you can do this more reliably with your existing metamagic. The 14th level ability is just bad, two other Sorcerers can reliably fly at will at this level, you need to risk downsizing or losing the die that fuels pretty much ALL your subclass abilities and burn Sorcery Points to do so. Psychic Aura is neat, but it's not clear if rolling damage can prompt the downsizing/loss of your die.

So far a big ol' leap in the wrong direction as the date of whatever book this is going in presumably looms.

elyktsorb

2020-04-14, 01:46 PM

Since there doesn't seem to be a cap on the Psionic Talent Die, I'm just imagining if you somehow got to a d100, since I don't think there's anything between d20 and d100 and 5th edition does use d100 dice rolls for things, so it's not unfeasible to say you couldn't get to it. Edit, also why does it seem like the Psi talent die is just the bards inspiration but for yourself.

jas61292

2020-04-14, 01:58 PM

I'm a bit worried about how fiddly the Psionic Talent die can be, and how, especially at lower levels, you could lose it relatively easily. That being said, I actually really like the idea behind it. I personally agree with the idea that a central psionics class just won't really work out satisfactorily, and really like the idea of having a bunch of different psionic sub classes with a unifying mechanic like the Psionic Talent die.

If the Psionic Talent die was to be changed to be a bit less fiddly, then obviously a lot of the features of the classes would be changed. But I honestly really like most of this. Some of the abilities do feel like they are tied to the die, just because they felt like they had to tie it to the die, and not because it really fits, but the actual powers granted by the abilities are really cool. I have no major complaints about any of the classes.

Waazraath

2020-04-14, 02:02 PM

elyktsorb

2020-04-14, 02:05 PM

"Conversely, if you roll a 1 on your Psionic Talent die, it increases by one die size after the roll, up to its starting size."

I did not even see that, but also why is that even a mechanic then if you can't go above the die?

nickl_2000

2020-04-14, 02:07 PM

I did not even see that, but also why is that even a mechanic then if you can't go above the die?

To recover after you go down. So, you roll a 6 and it goes down to a d4. Then you roll a 1 on the d4 and it goes back to a 6.

Waazraath

2020-04-14, 02:09 PM

I did not even see that, but also why is that even a mechanic then if you can't go above the die?

Because they learned of 2nd edition that it was a bad idea to add a 'die increase mechanic' when a certain weapon already would do 1d20 vs large creatures without it.

clash

2020-04-14, 02:13 PM

I think this is actually a step in the right direction. Soulknife and psychic knight should be rogue and fighter subclasses. I wasnt crazy about the psion not getting it's own class but on the flip side I am okay with it. I really dont mind the dice mechanics. It's a neat new way of doing it that ensures you actually get some decent mileage out of your psionics. Either you only get a few rolls but your rolled well. Or you rolled terrible but it's okay cause you get more rolls to make up for it.

MaxWilson

2020-04-14, 02:17 PM

I'm a bit worried about how fiddly the Psionic Talent die can be, and how, especially at lower levels, you could lose it relatively easily.

Not very easily. On average you'll have 30 dice to use at 3rd level, according to my Monte Carlo sim.

Level 3 (d6): 31.1 rolls before running out, average bonus +3.488641
Level 5 (d8): 76.4 rolls before running out, average bonus +4.146024
Level 11 (d10): 158.1 rolls before running out, average bonus +4.813687
Level 17 (d12): 288.5 rolls before running out, average bonus +5.520680

Any additional bonus you have from INT goes on top of that, but even with INT 10 that's quite a lot of damage potentially saved and/or dealt and/or "free" jumping movement added.

let r = System.Random()
let measure (dieSequence: int list) =
let m() =
let mutable psidieIx = 0
let rolls =
[while psidieIx < dieSequence.Length do
let d = dieSequence.[psidieIx]
let n = 1 + r.Next(d)
yield n
if n = 1 && psidieIx > 0 then
psidieIx <- psidieIx - 1
elif n = d then
psidieIx <- psidieIx + 1]
rolls |> List.length, rolls |> List.averageBy float
let l = List.init 1000 (fun _ -> m())
l |> List.averageBy (fst >> float), l |> List.averageBy snd
measure [6;4] |> (fun (rolls, avg) -> printfn "Level 3 (d6): %.1f rolls before running out, average bonus +%f" (rolls * 2.) avg)
measure [8;6;4] |> (fun (rolls, avg) -> printfn "Level 5 (d8): %.1f rolls before running out, average bonus +%f" (rolls * 2.) avg)
measure [10;8;6;4] |> (fun (rolls, avg) -> printfn "Level 11 (d10): %.1f rolls before running out, average bonus +%f" (rolls * 2.) avg)
measure [12;10;8;6;4] |> (fun (rolls, avg) -> printfn "Level 17 (d12): %.1f rolls before running out, average bonus +%f" (rolls * 2.) avg)

GorogIrongut

2020-04-14, 02:18 PM

I did not even see that, but also why is that even a mechanic then if you can't go above the die?

Because at higher levels your d6 increases. At the beginning a d6 only has one step to go down to the smallest option. At level 17, a sorceror is rocking a d12. There's a lot of going up and down that can happen.

As for my opinion on this UA, I think it's fabulous. They managed to incorporate Psionics into the Class System (an excellent decision). The Mystic and subsequent Psionics suffered from too many options. And with the insane amount of options provided, you were able to custom construct your characters to ridiculous levels of cheese. By linking them to the classes, you link Psionic abilities that mesh easily with the feel of the Class. I can see myself easily playing all of these classes. Heck, I think they may have actually made the Sorceror class easier to play. And they did it without giving extra spells linked to each sub class.

I'm heartily behind this. I just wish they'd done the Cleric too. I can understand why they didn't do the Wizard... and to be honest the wizard already has enough. But the Cleric would benefit from a bit of Psionic loving.

jas61292

2020-04-14, 02:26 PM

Not very easily. On average you'll have 30 dice to use at 3rd level, according to my Monte Carlo sim.

Level 3 (d6): 31.1 rolls before running out, average bonus +3.488641
Level 5 (d8): 76.4 rolls before running out, average bonus +4.146024
Level 11 (d10): 158.1 rolls before running out, average bonus +4.813687
Level 17 (d12): 288.5 rolls before running out, average bonus +5.520680

Any additional bonus you have from INT goes on top of that, but even with INT 10 that's quite a lot of damage potentially saved and/or dealt and/or "free" jumping movement added.
[/spoiler]

Sure. I'm not saying it is incredibly likely to happen, but while the die starts at a d6, there is a 1/6 chance it decreases on the first roll, and a 1/4 chance you lose it on the second. That's a 4% chance that you get two uses and then its gone. Now, technically, you have the bonus action refresh, which means this would need to happen twice, which is indeed rare. But I just don't love the design decision to have all your core abilities based on something that could, based on RNG, just be lost. Its one thing to have a limited resource and use it up knowingly. Its another thing to have a random amount of resources and potentially getting screwed by bad luck.

Having thought about it a bit more, if I were to redesign this, I would probably eliminate the size change from rolling, and only have size decrease with the powerful abilities that do it directly. Then I would eliminate going below a d4 (meaning you cannot use those powerful abilities if your die is a d4), but have the die size reset to maximum on a short rest, rather than a long one. This way, your main, basic abilities, such as the Psy Knight's Telekenetic strike is always available, while the stronger abilities become a powerful short rest resource, potentially tuned to be stronger than your average short rest resource, but coming with the side effect of weakening your always on abilities until the next rest.

PhantomSoul

2020-04-14, 02:28 PM

I ran 100 simulations per die size with decreasing the die size at its max and increasing it at its minimum (rerolling if the die wasn't eliminated) and got this as the expected long-term results. I ran 100 rounds per trial (10 minutes of using abilities that force a die roll once per round).

1. Expected number of rounds that you'll continue having a die (based on its starting size)

https://i.imgur.com/OxMUNdI.png

2. Expected size of your die based on round and starting size

https://i.imgur.com/za74Qy5.png

micahaphone

2020-04-14, 02:28 PM

The spells a sorcerer can now spend 10 minutes to know are:

--1--
Charm person
Comprehend Languages
Detect Magic
Sleep
--2--
Crown of Madness
Detect Thoughts
Hold Person
Mind Spike
See Invisibility
Mind Spike
Suggestion
--3--
Catnap
Clairvoyance
Enemies Abount
Tongues
--4--
Charm Monster
Confusion
Dominate Beast
--5--
Dominate Person
Hold Monster
Synaptic Static
--6--
Mass Suggestion
True Seeing
--7--
Power Word Pain
--8--
Dominate Monster
Power Word Stun
--9--
Power Word Kill
Psychic Scream

Amechra

2020-04-14, 02:29 PM

Segev

2020-04-14, 02:31 PM

It's different, but despite the fact that there's nothing..."psionic"...about a die as your mechanic, I think it works, nevertheless. It conjures in my mind's eye the image of a pulsating, rapidly-rotating die crackling with energy that is your "psionic power die," and that...works for me. This is actually fairly impressive, anecdotally; I hated - initially - how psi had become "just magic with mana points" in 3.0. It grew on me - to the point that I adore DSP's psionic stuff for PF1 - but I started out disliking it.

This "psionic power die" is an interesting mechanic that I can see working.

I like that it's a unifying mechanic for "psionics" in the same way spell slots are for "magic." I'd like to see something pulling more Battle Master Superiority Dice as unifying mechanics across some subclasses, honestly.

I don't hate that it's random enough to feel a bit like 'wild _____' in some fashion, but I don't love it, either. Feels like they're leaning into the wilder more than the psion for flavor. At the same time, it's less overall reliable than known quantities of spell slots, but it still has its limits. Which is good.

If there's a psionics-centric class, I could envision something like a psion who gets a choice of a limited number of disciplines, and gets a psi die for each one, or something like that.

I don't like the flavor of "this represents you burning through/conserving your psionic energy," though. Both of those fluff explanations are choices made, and the die doesn't give you a choice, so it doesn't...match fiction to mechanics, so to speak. For the reduction, I could see it being something about "straining your psychic powers," but I am not sure how to frame fluff for the roll of a 1 restoring them.

Burning out is also a pretty costly thing. None of these abilities are really on par with long rest spellcasting, but you can run dry of your entire subclass early on if you're unlucky. Might be too potent to just restore a d4 if you're burnt out on a short rest, though.

There's an interesting mix of variations on "telepathy" in here, too. The rogue soulknife is the only one who gets a telepathic-bond-like, two-way power. It's the only one that shares the GOOlock's ability to communicate without shared language, too. Sorcerer, on the othre hand, gets the GOOlock's at-will use to anybody in range, but the sorcerer does need to share a language.

In all, I think they've got a good start, here. The unifying mechanic is unique enough to feel different, and manages to resonate with the idea of "psychic power" to me without feeling awkward or forced. It's clever, too; I haven't seen it in any other system.

Waazraath

2020-04-14, 02:32 PM

Some first thoughts:

- they are on the right track as far as ideas go, I think (psionic feats, the subclasses that they are aiming for), but the execution is a bit meh.
- The sorcerer subclass is better than the wizard psion subclass, thematicly it fits better.
- No new base class(es) is a bit of a shame; the most logical one would be psion, and we could use another int based class. And I wouldn't mind seeing the wilder in 5e incarnation. Having said that:
- I like the psi subclasses for fighter and rogue. Some abilities are a bit boring (resistance to poison and psychic damage, meh), and the former psychic warrior had a mechanic that actually did something to improve two weapon fighting - too bad that one is gone. But oh well.
- I don't mind the soulknife as a rogue subclass, because in 3.5, it already was a light armored fighting class with above average skill and mobility. The only other logical alternative would be monk.
- I don't really like the dice mechanic. It's rather complicated and requires more bookkeeping, for no good reason. At the same time, those abilities that it fuels gives the classes more options to do, which is usually good. Again, on the other hand, some of those could be a bit more creative. Give a skill master Rogue another +1d6 on a skill check... meh.
- psionic feats are cool, but the requirement of needing first wild talent or already being psionic to be able to use them sucks in an edition that is feat starved.
- no monk subclass? Really?!!??

MaxWilson

2020-04-14, 02:33 PM

Relevant rules text for the sake of discussion:

Psionic Discovery. You can unlock the ability to cast a mind-oriented sorcerer spell you don’t already know. After meditating for 10 minutes (which can be done during a rest), roll your Psionic Talent die, and choose a sorcerer spell of a level for which you have spell slots and that is in the school of divination or enchantment. You know the chosen spell for a number of hours equal to the number you rolled.

The spells a sorcerer can now spend 10 minutes to know are:

--1--
Charm person
Comprehend Languages
Detect Magic
Sleep
--2--
Crown of Madness
Detect Thoughts
Hold Person
Mind Spike
See Invisibility
Mind Spike
Suggestion
--3--
Catnap
Clairvoyance
Enemies Abound
Tongues
--4--
Charm Monster
Confusion
Dominate Beast
--5--
Dominate Person
Hold Monster
Synaptic Static
--6--
Mass Suggestion
True Seeing
--7--
Power Word Pain
--8--
Dominate Monster
Power Word Stun
--9--
Power Word Kill
Psychic Scream

Thanks for posting that, however that list is likely to be controversial. I've crossed out all the spells that I don't consider to be mind-oriented. It's probably an "ask your DM" thing. Edit: changed my mind. Being ench/div is apparently enough. Micahaphone's original list is correct.

Even without those crossed-out spells though it's still an excellent feature and IMO the subclass is at least competitive with Divine Soul. I would play one. Effectively having more spells known is huuuuuge for the sorc.

nickl_2000

2020-04-14, 02:35 PM

MaxWilson

2020-04-14, 02:40 PM

Monks are pretty ASI hungry, spending two feat is pretty rough.

Both Wild Talent and Metabolic Control are half-feats though. Metabolic Control lets you increase either Str/Dex/Con by +1, and Wild Talent lets you increase anything by +1. Good feat for variant humans. Wild Talent is arguably better than Prodigy even for grapplers.

clash

2020-04-14, 02:44 PM

Relevant rules text for the sake of discussion:
Thanks for posting that, however that list is likely to be controversial. I've crossed out all the spells that I don't consider to be mind-oriented. It's probably an "ask your DM" thing.

Even without those crossed-out spells though it's still an excellent feature and IMO the subclass is at least competitive with Divine Soul. I would play one. Effectively having more spells known is huuuuuge for the sorc.

The "mind-oriented" phrase is the fluff. The actual mechanics that it clarfies after is enchantment or divination so any spells from those schools are fair game.

druid91

2020-04-14, 02:48 PM

Eh. Can't say I really like this move. Personally I really liked the Mystic's framework.

MaxWilson

2020-04-14, 02:57 PM

The "mind-oriented" phrase is the fluff. The actual mechanics that it clarfies after is enchantment or divination so any spells from those schools are fair game.

[thinks] Yes, you're right. Thanks, will edit to clarify.

Millstone85

2020-04-14, 03:05 PM

I don't like this. :smallfrown:

The sorcerer subclass is better than the wizard psion subclass, thematicly it fits better.Why? Because psionic power comes from within?

Psionics is the power of the mind. Not everybody has a dragon in their family, but everyone has a mind. Of the various origins suggested in the document, being "trained by a githzerai monk to unlock the psionic potential within yourself" is the least sorcerous, and the most in line with what a psion is supposed to be.

5e could use a third Int-based class, and the mystic/psion was a great candidate for the job.

Amechra

2020-04-14, 03:07 PM

Monks are pretty ASI hungry, spending two feat is pretty rough.

Go Variant Human and take Wild Talent (Dexterity). You have the appropriate stat adjustments for a Monk (+2 Dex, +1 Wis). Maybe leave your stats at 17/15 instead of the classic 16/16. Then grab Metabolic Control to bump your Dex to 18, and laugh with your newfound ability to take ~2 extra short rests per day without the rest of the party needing to join you.

MaxWilson

2020-04-14, 03:13 PM

Go Variant Human and take Wild Talent (Dexterity). You have the appropriate stat adjustments for a Monk (+2 Dex, +1 Wis). Maybe leave your stats at 17/15 instead of the classic 16/16. Then grab Metabolic Control to bump your Dex to 18, and laugh with your newfound ability to take ~2 extra short rests per day without the rest of the party needing to join you.

Only one extra short rest per day.

Joe the Rat

2020-04-14, 03:13 PM

Segev

2020-04-14, 03:16 PM

I was not expecting the die thing. But it's not another point pool, so kudos I guess. I like the spirit of the ebb and flow, but I will need to play a bit before I am happy with it in the context.

I like that you get a daily "recharge". I don't know if this was the intention, but I would definitely allow it to work if you 0'd out your PTD.
But as a matter of control, I would also let a player burn their die to get a guaranteed die-1 (a 5 on a d6, for example).

The Psi Die from Wild Talent doesn't stack with the subclass Psi Die, but the subclasses do. It may be another case of not thinking about multiclassing... but I could also see an argument for multiple Talent Pools. Assuming the Wild Talent is the direction they'd go, you have one source for all your cool tricks, and a refresh per class.

I am absolutely positive it's intended to "fix" things if you 0 out your PTD too early due to badly good luck. The trouble is actually that you can't fix it more than once, and though they phrase it as "saving your psionic reserves" and "overextending them," it's not actually a choice you're making. It makes it a hard mechanic to manage, despite the fluff sounding like you should be managing it.

Nidgit

2020-04-14, 03:17 PM

The Soulknife is the most interesting to me and also maybe the weakest. Telepathy and teleportation are both great but it feels like they're limiting themselves conceptually- most rogue subclasses give the player a new way to play and attack while this one makes you a bit better at dual wielding and throwing? It's pretty underwhelming.

Psi Knight feels both underwhelming and boring. It leans too heavily on the existing concept of Jedi Knight and doesn't really coalesce its own flavor, just gives you more attributes of Jedi. There aren't any ribbons- it's strong abilities at every level, which is fairly uncommon for Fighters.

Psionic Soul meanwhile makes great sense in terms of flavor but the execution is lacking. It's strong solely because it gives the Sorcerer a new resource to work with. Every other Sorcerer subclass gives you new things to do with your sorcery points; this one gives you one mediocre ability at Level 14 but also Superior Subtle Spell that's virtually resource free. These are two chassis that have been welded together and papered over with a few flavorful abilities: the different mechanics and it's holding back the subclass conceptually.

Also, it's worth noting that Metabolic Control isn't all that helpful for these three subclasses. Fighter only uses a short rest for a few things and Rogue and Sorcerer don't at all. As others have pointed out, it's a lot more useful for a Druid, Monk, or Warlock, which puts it perilously close to being a specific feat tree.

Amechra

2020-04-14, 03:19 PM

Only one extra short rest per day.

Yeah, I just double-checked and saw that limit. Still, it's one more short rest than you were getting before.

Segev

2020-04-14, 03:25 PM

Psionic Soul meanwhile makes great sense in terms of flavor but the execution is lacking. It's strong solely because it gives the Sorcerer a new resource to work with. Every other Sorcerer subclass gives you new things to do with your sorcery points; this one gives you one mediocre ability at Level 14 but also Superior Subtle Spell that's virtually resource free. These are two chassis that have been welded together and papered over with a few flavorful abilities: the different mechanics and it's holding back the subclass conceptually.

Thank you for articulating something that was bugging me but I couldn't put my finger on. Yes, this feels like a subclass for mostly a different class welded onto the Sorcerer. The only feature that plays into the rest of the class is Psionic Discovery. Psionic Sorcery is...good...for reshaping any spellcaster's fluff to "I'm a manifester, not a caster," but has its own issues and isn't playing to Sorcerer's strengths. But then...it still does it more than STorm Sorcerer, which just gets features that trigger on casting sorcerer spells. And I like Storm Sorcerer.

I think the telepathy feels a little tacked-on to each of the classes, so it'd be my suggestion to replace if there needs to be a switch-out. Then again, where I think it needs better integration is with sorcery points and metamagic, so replacing higher-level subclass features might be better. Psychic Strike is particularly boring. Bonus damage is...okay, I guess, but not really a Sorcerer's thing. What if it instead was something like "PSychic Font," allowing you to roll your PTD when creating spell slots with your SP, and reducing the number of SP required by the amount rolled? One of Sorcerer's biggest problems is that its two big schticks are both starved by the same mechanic, so it doesn't actually cast more spells per day than wizards or clerics and doesn't really get to exploit the greater variety of its metamagic effects. A psionic sorcerer's straining core of psychic potential enabling them to more effeciently create spells seems up the right alley.

If the PTD is too big to let it reduce 1:1 the SP cost of making a spell, let it contribute half what's rolled, or something.

MaxWilson

2020-04-14, 03:27 PM

I am absolutely positive it's intended to "fix" things if you 0 out your PTD too early due to badly good luck. The trouble is actually that you can't fix it more than once, and though they phrase it as "saving your psionic reserves" and "overextending them," it's not actually a choice you're making. It makes it a hard mechanic to manage, despite the fluff sounding like you should be managing it.

It's probably better to ignore the rationale given (1 = "conserving energy") and think of it more as overstraining yourself vs. finding a second wind. The resource itself isn't that hard to manage--you can feel when you're getting low even though you don't know exactly when it will give out. Frankly I would like it if spellcasting had a similar vague feel as to how much you've got left in you--at least in Magic-as-Art campaigns, to use the terminology of the Net Wizard's Handbook (https://www.enworld.org/attachments/64586487-net-wizard-s-handbook-third-edition-pdf.107598/).

Misterwhisper

2020-04-14, 03:31 PM

Yeah, I am not using that dice mechanic.

Skip.

Also to note on the rogue subclass:

They make a knife that is finesse and thrown but not light, however you can attack with another one anyway for a d4?

That does not make me go, wow that is a cool weapon, that makes me go, my bonus action is already busy a lot... I will keep my rapier or short sword and use this as backup.

Also the same issue as all the other time they try to make a manifest weapon, what about when I find a magic weapon?

Overall it is pretty weak.

I just don’t see a reason to pick any of these subclasses over the already existing ones.

Segev

2020-04-14, 03:34 PM

It's probably better to ignore the rationale given (1 = "conserving energy") and think of it more as overstraining yourself vs. finding a second wind. The resource itself isn't that hard to manage--you can feel when you're getting low even though you don't know exactly when it will give out. Frankly I would like it if spellcasting had a similar vague feel as to how much you've got left in you--at least in Magic-as-Art campaigns, to use the terminology of the Net Wizard's Handbook (https://www.enworld.org/attachments/64586487-net-wizard-s-handbook-third-edition-pdf.107598/).

It's good for that, yes, but there's no way other than "not use it until it's critical" to hedge. With spell slots, you can use them more and more sparingly, until you have exactly one left. With the die...when you get to a d4, the next time you roll it could be your last. And if you're really (un)lucky, you might've gotten there after 1 roll per die size above d4 you start with.

But yes, I do agree it is a nice way to get the "rough feel" of reserves without giving the exact values. I've been trying to find something like that for modeling Wheel of Time's channeling for years. I will have to examine this as a potential mechanic for that (though I have some particulars of what, specifically, I want to capture that this may or may not work with).

Fluff-wise, yes, I would prefer they change it. I do think "you've strained yourself" is a good reason for the shrinking die on a max roll. I'm not satisfied with any of the fluff justifications I've come up with nor seen others proposing for why rolling a 1 grows it again. Mechanically, as a game device, it makes sense and I like it. I just struggle to picture why "doing poorly" winds up relieving the strain enough that you can do better and are less likely to lose it.

MaxWilson

2020-04-14, 03:40 PM

It's good for that, yes, but there's no way other than "not use it until it's critical" to hedge. With spell slots, you can use them more and more sparingly, until you have exactly one left. With the die...when you get to a d4, the next time you roll it could be your last. And if you're really (un)lucky, you might've gotten there after 1 roll per die size above d4 you start with.

Well, there is one other level: the once-per-day refresh. If you're reckless, you burn your refresh the moment your die size drops below your maximum. If you're more cautious, you live with smaller dice for a while instead, or even let it burn down to d4 and then nothing before refreshing.

But yes, I do agree it is a nice way to get the "rough feel" of reserves without giving the exact values. I've been trying to find something like that for modeling Wheel of Time's channeling for years. I will have to examine this as a potential mechanic for that (though I have some particulars of what, specifically, I want to capture that this may or may not work with). *snip*

Fluff-wise, yes, I would prefer they change it. I do think "you've strained yourself" is a good reason for the shrinking die on a max roll. I'm not satisfied with any of the fluff justifications I've come up with nor seen others proposing for why rolling a 1 grows it again. Mechanically, as a game device, it makes sense and I like it. I just struggle to picture why "doing poorly" winds up relieving the strain enough that you can do better and are less likely to lose it.

Me neither. I don't love it as a game device either actually--it wouldn't kill me if the mechanic were something more like "roll a second die of the same size, and if it's the same result as your psi die you regain one point on your psi dice." Rolling the 1 isn't the important part to me.

Temperjoke

2020-04-14, 03:40 PM

Well, I'm out. I realize I'm probably in the minority, but I liked having a separate class for Psionics, and frankly think it's a mistake trying to create a different psionic subclass for each regular class.

As for what is presented here, I think the whole die-switching mechanic over-complicates things and is trying too hard to give them their own thing, like the decision to abandon the Mystic class came after creating this new mechanic to use in these subclasses.

rickayelm

2020-04-14, 03:42 PM

If they are going to use psi dice it should be a pool of dice like the battle masters superiority dice or the arcane archers mystic shots.
Also psi feats should stack with the subclasses.

micahaphone

2020-04-14, 03:51 PM

I think that the Aberrant Mind sorc was OP (it shouldn't get free mage armor and a domain spell list), but I really preferred that flavor of sorc over a psionic sorc. Nothing flavorwise about it grabs me, and the mechanics are just okay. It's like the most "default" sorcerer I could think of.

I'd be okay with sorcs having a half domain list of just one spell per level, so they're still spells known restricted, but you'd get some small bit of wiggle room to get some thematic spells.

If Aberrant Mind sorc is gone (along with its domain spells), I have little hope for the Clockwork Soul

P. G. Macer

2020-04-14, 03:55 PM

My takes:

I really like the Psionic talent die mechanic, it really gives Psionics its own unique feel. I particularly like that it balances out rolling really low and high with the die changing sizes.

I have no complaints about the Psi Warrior. I love it!

I think the new Soul Knife is an improvement over the old one, but there are still numerous flaws that haven’t been rectified, such as the incompatibility with magic weapons, and some issues with feat compatibility too.

The new Sorcerer is a hot mess in my opinion. Psionic Discovery is obviously intended to replace the bonus spells the Aberrant Mind received, yet Wizards failed to recognize that most of the bonus spells were either not enchantment or divination or not on the sorcerer list to begin with. The ability to remove spell components changing to merely a chance based on the Psionic Talent die also rubs me the wrong way. What’s most unforgivable, however, is how, unlike with the Psi Warrior and the Soul Knife, here the Psionic Talent feature is clumsily stapled on to the subclass rather than integrated into it. The Level 14 feature is particularly burdensome in that it requires the use of both Sorcery Points and the Psionic Talent die.

The remaining spells seem fine.

The Feats:
• Metabolic control seems powerful on a Warlock.
• Wild Talent seems prone to multi class abuse, as its die, unlike those of the subclasses, scales off character level rather than class level.

I also dislike that WotC seems to be sitting on the fence as to whether psionics are magic or not with this revision, as the balance implications as to the power of psionics. I know making psionic abilities magical was unpopular back in 2017, but I’m not convinced that the sidebar’s logic that making it nonmagical isn’t a big deal is sound.

Dork_Forge

2020-04-14, 04:02 PM

Now that I've read the spells and feats: The spells seem okay, not sure how often you'd want to burn a 4th level slot for the benefits of Intellect Fortress unless you were actively attacking a Mind Flayer colony.

I like the variety in feats they're trying to put across here, but it suffers from a fundamental problem: 5e is not a system that can afford feat trees. ASIs are so few and far between for everyone but Fighters that taking a prerequisite feat is a ridiculously high cost. I like that they built in stacking for the subclasses, but unless you roll really well you're just going to be gimping (or at the very least delaying your stat progression significantly) your character to take the secondary feats. This just further compounds the dependency on V Humans to actually get decent feat builds out the door.

The feats themselves are a bit eh but no big deal, my main problem is if Psi Guided Strike from Wilder can reduce your Psi die size. If that's the case then why on Earth would you use that ability regularly for measely gains in damage?

Nicrosil

2020-04-14, 04:08 PM

I like it, though I do think it needs some revisions.

- I think your Talent dice should come back on a short rest instead of a long rest, so you aren't entirely screwed if you get really bad luck.

- If your dice is a d4 and you use abilities that decrease the size of your dice without rolling it, like Telekinetic Master or recharging Bulwark of Force, does that burn it until a long rest? I think it does, but its unclear.

- Rend Mind's DC is based on your Dexterity instead of Intelligence like the Psy Knight's abilities, which may be an error, and is strange if it isn't. .

- I'm... not sure how I feel about the Psionic Soul. Trying to integrate spellcasting with sorcery points and whatever they end up doing for psionics is going to be hard no matter what. I say cut Psionic Discovery, and just let them choose any enchantment/divination spells when they level up, like the Divine Soul. No other real complaints, actually.

- The feats and spells seem fun. I'm wary of having feats that require other feats as prerequisites, but I don't know how else they'd implement it.

- Do we really need 3 different forms of telepathy?

Segev

2020-04-14, 04:10 PM

Brainstorming thought: What if Wild Talent had a specific special rule that you could take it at first level if you reduce your highest stat by 2? If taken this way, you don't get the +1 to a stat portion of it. Sort of a reverse-ASI that MUST hit your best stat.

...come to think of it, isn't Wild Talent pretty powerful? Why is it also giving you a +1 to toss around?

I think a reverse-ASI like this is probably still too good to give that to feats in general, but Wild Talent is the sort of thing you can start a career with and also is the root of a "feat tree" so needs the extra room.

CheddarChampion

2020-04-14, 04:18 PM

The feats themselves are a bit eh but no big deal, my main problem is if Psi Guided Strike from Wilder can reduce your Psi die size. If that's the case then why on Earth would you use that ability regularly for measely gains in damage?

If all you have is the Wilder feat then you might as well use it if you're in the last fight before a long rest. If you have other uses then those are better, yeah.

I was going to say 'still better than Savage Attacker' but I'm actually not sure. The feat as a whole is definitely better but IDK which is more effective at face value for weapon damage boosts.

Dork_Forge

2020-04-14, 04:24 PM

If all you have is the Wilder feat then you might as well use it if you're in the last fight before a long rest. If you have other uses then those are better, yeah.

I was going to say 'still better than Savage Attacker' but I'm actually not sure. The feat as a whole is definitely better but IDK which is more effective at face value for weapon damage boosts.

If that's your only feat then I agree, but I'm not sure why anyone would take Wilder just for the feat itself unless they were going skill monkey route and wanted as many bonuses as possible.

In terms of the reroll Savage Attacker is better, you are actually rerolling your weapon dice vs taking the roll from your psi die, which could very easily be a smaller die than your weapon's.

Luccan

2020-04-14, 04:30 PM

Tes

2020-04-14, 04:34 PM

If that's your only feat then I agree, but I'm not sure why anyone would take Wilder just for the feat itself unless they were going skill monkey route and wanted as many bonuses as possible.

In terms of the reroll Savage Attacker is better, you are actually rerolling your weapon dice vs taking the roll from your psi die, which could very easily be a smaller die than your weapon's.

Hm it's a Half Feat, nice boost to Skill checks related to your Attribute and applicable in combat. Will only burn down the dice size if you get 4-5 extra damage from it (assuming you only elect to roll after getting 1s or 2s on your damage dice). Each part of the Feat on its own? Yeah not great. All 3 for one Feat (also unlocking the other Feats)? Gotta admit I'm intrigued.

Segev

2020-04-14, 04:37 PM

My suspicion is that the subclasses are their new forray into testing the waters because subclasses are easier to balance without stepping on toes of other base classes: they have defined base class roles, so they're not "stepping on toes" so much as "doing the role their own way." They're a way to do what they were trying to do with the Mystic - test psionic mechanics in various facets of gameplay - without having people focus on how the test chassis is too powerful and versatile.

If this psychic die mechanic works and gains traction, I would expect to eventually see a psionic base class using the by-then refined version of it to fit a particular role, rather than to test the mechanic in all the roles.

Kane0

2020-04-14, 04:39 PM

Upon first glance it looks servicable, more options available but nothing crazy. The wizard finally gets dumped in favor of sorc, thank goodness.

Hmm. Some items in here really help fill in the blanks that came with the mystic’s disciplines, talents, focus and power points. Especially the changing die concept.
I’m going to enjoy tinkering with this over the next few weeks.

Segev

2020-04-14, 04:49 PM

Some items in here really help fill in the blanks that came with the mystic’s disciplines, talents, focus and power points. Especially the changing die concept.

I don't follow you. Can you please elaborate what you mean? This sounds like an interesting thought, but I can't unpack your meaning from it enough to grasp it.

Zevox

2020-04-14, 04:52 PM

Haven't read it in full yet, but the fact that it contains a Sorcerer subclass and this line:

Following that feedback, we’ve decided to say farewell to the mystic and explore other ways of giving players psi-themed powers, as we did with the features of the Great Old One warlock in the Player’s Handbook.
I find rather depressing. Psionics are not magic*, and shouldn't be represented via the existing magic classes and mechanics, as far as I'm concerned. The Great Old One Warlock is no more a psionic class to me than any Wizard who takes the telepathy or telekinesis spells is. And them abandoning the Mystic is very bad news for anyone hoping for a proper Psion class, which I very much so am. Flawed as it was, it was a solid starting point for doing that.

*I mean this in a flavor sense - mechanically I'm fine if the default is to have things like dispel magic and antimagic fields affect them, that's another matter entirely.

Amechra

2020-04-14, 04:53 PM

micahaphone

2020-04-14, 04:56 PM

.

- Rend Mind's DC is based on your Dexterity instead of Intelligence like the Psy Knight's abilities, which may be an error, and is strange if it isn't. .

Maybe they're putting it on dex because the soul knife doesn't have any other save DC, and by the time you hit that capstone you'll hopefully have invested in dex.

Dork_Forge

2020-04-14, 05:05 PM

I mean, you're taking the feat for Psi-Boosted Ability, not Psi-Guided Strikes.

If you want to be better at skills wouldn't you be better off taking Magic Initiate and grabbing Guidance, which you can do all day without worrying about bad rolls reducing the effectiveness (and even depriving you) or abilities you took a feat(s) for? On top of that you'd get another cantrip and a spell you can cast once a day.

As for the feat trees, the fact that most of the feats are half-feats helps with that. Grabbing Wild Talent + Metabolic Control on a Monk (for example) is roughly the investment you'd see in a PAM+Sentinel or PAM+GWM build.

On both of those builds you're getting fully built out features and each feat is a noticeable addition to your character. If you went the feat tree route as a Monk you'd end up with lower stats on a MAD class and end up with one mediocre combat ability, one pretty good skill based ability and the ability to recharge your Ki in a minute once a day. Now that sounds not bad right? Until you realise they all compete for the same resource, a resource whose management is not a player decision, but down to RNG.

Luccan

2020-04-14, 05:07 PM

A couple thoughts unrelated to my initial dissapointment: tying Psionics to any ability you feel like was an issue in previous editions (something 3.5 even revised entirely), so I'm not sure why they're going back to that specific well. Many complain Dex is the king stat of this edition; imagine if you could tie it to a decent amount of psionics as well. That's mostly a hypothetical for if they keep going this direction, though, like if they do decide to do a full class and let you run a Dex Psion. Or probably a Con one too. Cha SADness already gets complaints.

Thinking on the die mechanic, I'm definitely wary of it. I feel like it has a good chance of either being too strong to make up for the possibility, however slight, that you'll get weaker throughout the day or even lose it entirely or too "average" so your base die is always in line with everyone else of the same level, which means the mechanic is more of a liability since you could drop in effectiveness at any time. And it's not like when you nova, there's no player input.

Kane0

2020-04-14, 05:18 PM

I don't follow you. Can you please elaborate what you mean? This sounds like an interesting thought, but I can't unpack your meaning from it enough to grasp it.

Well the major shticks of 3.5 Psionics were (A) using a point resource system instead of a slot one and (B) boosting those powers using additional points, both of which are now standard in 5e with upcasting and sorcery points/DMG spell points. Psionics needs a new mechanical niche to justify itself, 'mind powers' isn't going to cut it alone since we have magic that covers that in the Enchantment, Divination and Evocation schools. Concentration was incorporated in a novel way but talents and disciplines otherwise boiled down to cantrips and bundles of thematically linked spells. This changing die idea isn't terribly different to maneuver dice but is just different enough in it's implementation to make psionics feel unique when packaged with the other pieces. And if you do it right this can work in both class and subclass form. The die can be a constant but variable resource that complements a point based resource used up throughout the adventuring day.

Still thinking it all through, but more toys to play with is always welcome.

Segev

2020-04-14, 05:30 PM

Thanks for the elaboration, Kane0.

If you want to be better at skills wouldn't you be better off taking Magic Initiate and grabbing Guidance, which you can do all day without worrying about bad rolls reducing the effectiveness (and even depriving you) or abilities you took a feat(s) for? On top of that you'd get another cantrip and a spell you can cast once a day.Guidance takes your Concentration; this doesn't. It also takes an action, unless you can convince your DM that you re-cast it every minute. Often, this won't matter, but sometimes it definitely will. This psychic ability is just a bonus to your roll when you want it, no action, no Concentration; you can be Concentrating on something else and use it. (Warlocks and Rangers will like this for hex and hunters mark, for instance.)

Dork_Forge

2020-04-14, 05:32 PM

Thanks for the elaboration, Kane0.

Guidance takes your Concentration; this doesn't. It also takes an action, unless you can convince your DM that you re-cast it every minute. Often, this won't matter, but sometimes it definitely will. This psychic ability is just a bonus to your roll when you want it, no action, no Concentration; you can be Concentrating on something else and use it. (Warlocks and Rangers will like this for hex and hunters mark, for instance.)

How often will you be wanting a bonus on ability checks in combat for this to matter though? Bonuses to ability checks is usually an out of combat ability (not including Initiative), where action economy matters very little if at all.

Theoboldi

2020-04-14, 05:33 PM

That is...pretty rough. While I can appreciate their general design goal of making psionics something that characters can be in addition to their base class, I don't know if it's a smart idea to essentially either force yourself to make a new subclass for each class or leave some classes weirdly left out. I'd rather they focus their efforts on making one or two good base classes.

Also, that psionic die. That sure is a fiddly gimmick. It's a unique mechanical thing, can't imagine that being fun to keep track of in play, though. Also don't like how the psionic soul's ability to cast spells without components is tied to a die roll. That means my character might randomly have the right flavor at any one point, which just seems kind of lame.

At least it's a sorcerer subclass though, so no having to lug around a spellbook.

I like the feats, at least in theory. They seem like a decent way of giving anyone psionics, and might be a cool thing to give out as bonus feats in a more psionic themed campaign. But Wild Talent feels like a feat tax straight out of third edition, preventing you from getting to the more interesting and flavorful abilities, which is bad since feats already compete with ASIs.

MaxWilson

2020-04-14, 05:42 PM

How often will you be wanting a bonus on ability checks in combat for this to matter though? Bonuses to ability checks is usually an out of combat ability (not including Initiative), where action economy matters very little if at all.

You may have just answered your own question there: not only will a Wild Talent monk be better at winning initiative, but they'll have control over whether to win initiative. If that +d6 bonus would make your Flurry of Blows that knock the big bad guy prone happen before the big bad guy's turn, your buddy the GWM fighter might lose the chance to get advantage against a prone target, so you decline the bonus.

Also it's a good feat for grapplers. In fact it stacks with Prodigy.

Also good for Counterspellers.

Wild Talent looks like a top-tier feat for Counterspell Bards: +1 to Cha, +Counterspell, +Dispel Magic, +Persuasion/Deception/Intimidation, all on top of possible Expertise and Peerless Skill (for Lore Bards) and potentially Glibness too. Waaaay better than an Abjuror at Counterspells.

Segev

2020-04-14, 05:51 PM

I don't know if it's a smart idea to essentially either force yourself to make a new subclass for each class or leave some classes weirdly left out. I'd rather they focus their efforts on making one or two good base classes.

Said this already once, but I think it bears repeating: I think they're doing it this way not to force something for every class, but to test things out in several niches and roles. When they tried it with a single class, to see how it played in all those roles with one class, they got a lot of "it's overpowered!" and "it steps on [this class]'s toes!" feedback, and while that wasn't useless, they didn't get what they wanted in terms of a psionic class and subsystem being tested out.

This time, I bet, they're doing it as subclasses so that there's no focus on whose toes they're stepping on. It's a subclass of a fighter; of course it's doing fighter things. I think they're trying to test out the new "psi die" mechanic in as many roles as they can and hoping to keep the focus on psionics in these roles and not on psionics being overpowered with this one playtest class to try them all.

Ironicaly, therefore, "I'll miss you, Mystic," and "They really should focus on one base class for this" will therefore be equally counterproductive.

I fully expect that, if this gets the kind of feedback they need to develop it into something they consider release-worthy, the subsystem of the psi die will be pushed not just into subclasses, but used as a core for an actual base class. Once they determine what roles it's good for and what roles it's less good for, they'll find a niche for the class (or a niche for a few classes) and build one or more base classes to cover it.

Remember, UA is playtest material. It's not final stuff. And one use for playtest material is not as final round testing of intended-to-release stuff, but rather as something that can get you data on use for an actual final product to come later.

TwrLrd

2020-04-14, 05:54 PM

I like this overall, never played with psionics before and most of my d&d experience is 5e.

The psionic talent die mechanic is fine with me. Its going to be swingy for these subclasses, but these are practically 1/3rd casters compared to what a 'true' psion would be, who to my simplistic guessing would have 3d6 at level 3 (I see the homebrewing already). Their stamina is inconsistent but on average seems they are palatable. It sets itself out a strong identity without adding more point pools to classes, especially the sorcerer and I don't see what is so hard about it to track. Especially once people start playing with it they'll adapt and these are only the simpler classes technically (hopefully not forever though).

As to the subclasses, I think they're fine, they all do the job have a reasonable amount of pull to them and give a chassis to develop options for other classes. The spells do a servicable job too, but I'd hope for more in a true release, but quality over quantity is good too. Feats are fine, maybe a bit heavy if you just want some light telepathy or telekinesis though (8 levels to develop for non-variant humans I mean), at least they're half feats though. Overall I like it, but I want to dare them to take a stab at making a true psion which just has 3 times the psionic talent dice and see what sticks.

Specifically...

Fighter; my main comments are on psi-powered leap feeling like an underwhelming ribbon compared to telekinetic movement even if its nice and cheap which telekinetic movement isn't which is another comment, psi-enchanced metabolism's poison resistance is weird, but I suppose its something without being too much. Otherwise the fighter does feel like a psi-enchanced telekinetic melee fighter and would do an ok job. Maybe an assist for concentration checks for when they cast telekinesis would be nice now that I think about it though.

Rogue; the fixation with the knives is a bit much, I like it for the teleport, but a little flexibility to enchance knives with psionic energy instead would be good too. Was not expecting psionic veil which is nice, but some limited clairvoyance to see on the other side of doors and a bit of inbuilt telekinesis would be good additions for a psionic rogue. I think the rogue would do well for a little bit of jack of all trades with psionic talent, but choosing from a handful of options would be a better compromise with the current design.

Sorcerer; Psychic sorcery really seems like it would hurt for the potential randomness if players try their luck too hard, I'd rather it force a step down in the psionic talent die unless you match the level or higher on the roll for the full effect. Psychic strike lacks the flavour of psychic aura to me and mind over body feels out of place a bit maybe, but I think thats just me. Certainly the bottom of the 3 subclasses for me, I think more of a focus on choosing a focus of psychic talent to match the sorcerer's playstyle would be preferable, maybe emulate totem barbarian. Psionic discovery and psychic aura are the best features here.

Spells; No expert here, these look good, maybe mind thrust could be frustrating to have it used against you regularly, but they seem good if a bit of a short list.

Feats; Are ok, the wild talent feat feels a bit heavy for a feat tax as I can see alot of people ignoring it once they have their second feat. Making the 'upper' feats a whole feat by themselves to some extent just without explicitly saying they are and taking 8 levels to reach that conclusion.

Theoboldi

2020-04-14, 06:06 PM

Remember, UA is playtest material. It's not final stuff. And one use for playtest material is not as final round testing of intended-to-release stuff, but rather as something that can get you data on use for an actual final product to come later.

Eh, I'm just going by their stated design goals of taking a more 1e approach to psionics, where everyone can have them in addition to their class. And I think it's valuable to point out that such an approach will leave people unsatisfied if there's not then a subclass for each class, unless they really make something robust out of the psionic feat system.

Even if this is just to gather initial feedback, I think it's also valuable feedback to say that the fundamental idea has its issues.

Zevox

2020-04-14, 06:16 PM

So, reactions to the specific mechanics:

The big one is the whole Psionic Talent die, I suppose. Honestly, I don't think I'm a fan. I hate how swingy it is, potentially shrinking to the point where your abilities just stop working for the rest of the day (especially since many abilities on the Soulknife in particular automatically shrink it), or growing out of control - and I especially dislike that rolling high is bad and rolling low is good with it, that's completely counter-intuitive and not fun. And honestly, I don't understand why it's supposed to be a Psionic thing? It seems more like the kind of mechanic that might have been fitting on a Wild Magic Sorcerer: very chaotic and hard to predict how it will pan out in a given day. It definitely doesn't feel like something that represents the way a disciplined wielder of power stemming directly from their own mind should feel.

As for the classes themselves... eh, there are some things about the Psychic Warrior and Soulknife that I like more than the previous pass at them (for instance, the low-level Psychic Warrior abilities seem better), some things that I like less (for instance, Psi-Enhanced Metabolism is a pretty boring and very niche benefit at level 10). On the whole, I'm still on board with those being Fighter and Rogue subclasses, but tying them to this new die mechanic is what probably makes me prefer the previous versions if I had to pick.

And the Sorcerer subclass is just so much "no." I'm not even going to bother commenting on it further than that; I just completely dislike the idea of making a Psionic subclass of a traditional casting class rather than a full Psionic casting class, and nothing about this one makes me reconsider that opinion.

As to the feats, I like the idea of Psionic feats that can grant a splash of psionic flavor and ability to anyone who wants it in principle, but dislike that these are all tied to that new Psionic Talent die mechanic, since I'm not a fan of that. And, actually, they're also all tied to already having it, which partially defeats the point in my mind since you can't take them if you're not already in a psionic subclass, or take Wild Talent first as a gateway feat. That kind of feat tax for something that's more flavorful than anything seems particularly bad when feats are such a precious resource in this version of the game, since you have to choose to forgo an ability score increase to take one.

Dork_Forge

2020-04-14, 06:17 PM

You may have just answered your own question there: not only will a Wild Talent monk be better at winning initiative, but they'll have control over whether to win initiative. If that +d6 bonus would make your Flurry of Blows that knock the big bad guy prone happen before the big bad guy's turn, your buddy the GWM fighter might lose the chance to get advantage against a prone target, so you decline the bonus.

Also it's a good feat for grapplers. In fact it stacks with Prodigy.

Also good for Counterspellers.

Wild Talent looks like a top-tier feat for Counterspell Bards: +1 to Cha, +Counterspell, +Dispel Magic, +Persuasion/Deception/Intimidation, all on top of possible Expertise and Peerless Skill (for Lore Bards) and potentially Glibness too. Waaaay better than an Abjuror at Counterspells.

Winning Initiative can certainly be very important, if you want to take a feat to win Initiative then take Alert, I don't really understand what you mean by choosing to win or not so that the GWM can get advantage. If you can hit the BBEG with prone at top of the order then go for it, worst case scenario you cut down their mobility and get ahead on damage.

Maybe I'm misreading you, but Expertise has nothing to do with Counter Spell and nothing is stopping an Abjurer taking the feat for the exact same thing. Glibness is an 8th level spell, that's such an edge case that if you want to burn an 8th level slot in tier 4 on Counterspelling then you should be the best at it or at least the most consistent.

If it used another mechanic than this fiddly pseudo at will resource I'd probably like it more, but whilst it does I don't think the feat is worth it except in edge cases (Grapplers, which is of limited use itself) and Counterspelling (if you're in a high magic campaign with a lot of enemy casters then great, but I don't know how representative that is of people's tables or even of published modules). You could use your new abilities all day or you could do it twice before needing to refresh it. As far as I'm aware there's no feat that gives that uncertainty and the only thing that comes close with class features is the Wild Sorc. That uncertainty is something that I don't want to see creeping into 5e and the fiddly book keeping it introduces just adds confusion and slows things down.

MaxWilson

2020-04-14, 06:27 PM

Winning Initiative can certainly be very important, if you want to take a feat to win Initiative then take Alert, I don't really understand what you mean by choosing to win or not so that the GWM can get advantage. If you can hit the BBEG with prone at top of the order then go for it, worst case scenario you cut down their mobility and get ahead on damage.

Maybe I'm misreading you, but Expertise has nothing to do with Counter Spell and nothing is stopping an Abjurer taking the feat for the exact same thing. Glibness is an 8th level spell, that's such an edge case that if you want to burn an 8th level slot in tier 4 on Counterspelling then you should be the best at it or at least the most consistent.

I wasn't clear, sorry. Was talking in general about how much fun Wild Talent would be on the bard. I agree that Jack of All Trades, not Expertise, is the relevant bard ability for Counterspell, Dispel Magic, and Telekinesis. (Plus Peerless Skill of you're a Lore Bard.) I also agree that Abjurors can take Wild Talent if they want (whereas Magic Initiate for Guidance would do very little good).

I'm just trying to highlight why Wild Talent is an interesting ability.

If the BBEG goes between you the monk and the GWM fighter, BBEG will not be prone when the fighter attacks him. A reasonable DM would let you work together anyway somehow, but technically by RAW there is no way to delay a Flurry of Blows or to deliberately lower your initiative.

Dork_Forge

2020-04-14, 06:35 PM

I wasn't clear, sorry. Was talking in general about how much fun Wild Talent would be on the bard. I agree that Jack of All Trades, not Expertise, it's the relevant bard ability for Counterspell, Dispel Magic, and Telekinesis. I also agree that Abjurors can take Wild Talent if they want (whereas Magic Initiate for Guidance would do very little good).

I'm just trying to highlight why Wild Talent is an interesting ability.

If the BBEG goes between you the monk and the GWM fighter, BBEG will not be prone when the fighter attacks him. A reasonable DM would let you work together anyway somehow, but technically by RAW there is no way to delay a Flurry of Blows or to deliberately lower your initiative.

Ahh thanks for clarifying that makes more sense now.

I think I'd just prefer is things like the skill bonuses were passive and always on, something like you get a d4 to an ability check that uses the stat you increase with this feat and then shift it away from the resource die model. That way it still stacks with other things (and would still be great in your example of a Bard), cuts down on the 5e weirdness of an 8Str Bard being better at Grappling than a 20Str martial and leaves room to put more impressive ability in there limited by a real resource the player can manage as they see fit, not hope they don't roll too well on an ability they burned a half an ASI for.

MaxWilson

2020-04-14, 06:43 PM

Ahh thanks for clarifying that makes more sense now.

I think I'd just prefer is things like the skill bonuses were passive and always on, something like you get a d4 to an ability check that uses the stat you increase with this feat and then shift it away from the resource die model. That way it still stacks with other things (and would still be great in your example of a Bard), cuts down on the 5e weirdness of an 8Str Bard being better at Grappling than a 20Str martial and leaves room to put more impressive ability in there limited by a real resource the player can manage as they see fit, not hope they don't roll too well on an ability they burned a half an ASI for.

I see your point. In any case, "interesting ability" != "ready to be released in this form." It's thought-provokingly different, and that gives it an interesting flavor, but as you say it's fiddly and might be disruptive of gameflow in actual play.

I'm neutral overall, I think. I hate it less than most UA because at least I see a reason for Wild Talent to exist, but that's a low bar for it to clear. Either way though at least it has opened my eyes to an interesting bit of game design, which I think I'll call "wavering resources."

BTW why do you mention the 8 Str Bard in this example? Are you expecting bards to take Wild Talent (Strength) instead of Wild Talent (Charisma)? Why would such a bard not also invest in a bit more Strength--purely for the LOLs?

Edit: I guess a Wild Talent (Strength) Moon Druid could be kind of cool. Unlike Prodigy (Athletics) you don't have to be human, and it uncontroversially works in Earth Elemental form although Multiattack + grapple will not work at all tables. I'd go Wild Talent (Strength) + Tower of Iron Will + Warcaster. Maybe Resilient (Con) too eventually, maybe not.

Sigreid

2020-04-14, 07:00 PM

First glance I'm kind of liking it.

Dork_Forge

2020-04-14, 07:20 PM

I see your point. In any case, "interesting ability" != "ready to be released in this form." It's thought-provokingly different, and that gives it an interesting flavor, but as you say it's fiddly and might be disruptive of gameflow in actual play.

I'm neutral overall, I think. I hate it less than most UA because at least I see a reason for Wild Talent to exist, but that's a low bar for it to clear. Either way though at least it has opened my eyes to an interesting bit of game design, which I think I'll call "wavering resources."

BTW why do you mention the 8 Str Bard in this example? Are you expecting bards to take Wild Talent (Strength) instead of Wild Talent (Charisma)? Why would such a bard not also invest in a bit more Strength--purely for the LOLs?

Edit: I guess a Wild Talent (Strength) Moon Druid could be kind of cool. Unlike Prodigy (Athletics) you don't have to be human, and it uncontroversially works in Earth Elemental form although Multiattack + grapple will not work at all tables. I'd go Wild Talent (Strength) + Tower of Iron Will + Warcaster. Maybe Resilient (Con) too eventually, maybe not.

To clarify, the intent of restricting it to the ability you boosted would help mitigate things that are just a bit weird, like how a Bard with 8 Str is incredibly weaker than a martial with 20 Str, but because Grappling is skill based, the Bard can actually be better at it by stacking things like Expertise and now this new feat ability. As well as reigning it in as an ability, it'd still be cool and useful but it makes each person feel like they were boosted by Psionics a little differently and free up some design space within the feat to make the resource based ability worth more of a damn than Psi Guided Strikes (which imo sounds like a boost to hit, not rerolling damage).

Edit: To further clarify I actually missed that it already only applied to checks that tie to the boosted ability. So I guess my revision now stands at just making it a perma-on d4 and boosting the resource ability, preferably turning that resource into more like Superiority Dice than it is right now, if it still to use dice.

Waterdeep Merch

2020-04-14, 08:14 PM

I'd want to try some of these before really saying if anything's particularly good, bad, broken, boring, or fiddly, but am I missing something with the Soulknife? It seems like any campaign that has magic weapons in it at all means they have little reason to use their namesake. Once magic weapons become available shortswords and rapiers just completely surpass it for melee, and a magic shortbow also seems like a better deal for ranged (longbow for some!).

Sure, this is more reliable and you can't be disarmed, but is that really a common enough problem to pick this subclass?

Though their non-soulknife abilities look useful. Maybe even useful enough to excuse the knives.

HPisBS

2020-04-14, 08:29 PM

The changing die size feels more like a thing the character should choose to do, partially because of the “conserving energy” verbiage, but mostly because these powers are supposed to come from the character’s own mental discipline. That suggests a steady, reliable ability, rather than this crazy RNG.

That said, it seems like the powers that use it are supposed to be balanced on the dichotomy of potentially being used indefinitely, YET potentially being used up altogether. I’d say to take this aspect of the RNG out of it. Replace the chance to lose the die for the rest of the day with the chance to lose the die size increase for the rest of the day, thus locking the die as a d4. That way, abilities that are meant to be spammable won’t be lost for the day, yet those which require downgrading the die will. (This would likely take some re-balancing of powers.)

- Alternatively, just give a pool of static Psi Dice and let certain powers default to a lower size without consuming dice out of that pool.

Psionic Thrust (lvl 7) is a rehash of the Open Hand Technique. Open Hand is only usable so long as you have ki to Flurry with, while this thrust can be used until you lose your talent die. So… maybe that part’s equal enough? The imbalanced part is that this thrust buffs the extra damage from the Telekinetic Strike. We’re only on lvl 7, and we’re already far surpassing the Open Hand at its main schtick.

Psi-Enhanced Metabolism (lvl 10): Speaking of the Monk comparison, this is basically a weaker Purity of Body, but trading immunity to disease and poison for resistance to psychic (and poison) damage. Both are rare enough that this is roughly equivalent, but still…. This is starting to feel like a way to grab-bag from Monk as a Fighter.

Telekinetic Master (lvl 18): You presumably can cast a super-useful lvl 5 spell 5 times a day, not counting your Psi Replenishment. Wow. Is this really on par with other Fighter subclasses' capstones? I get that Telekinesis usually won't be a Fighter's best option for combat (except maybe to remove 1 enemy for the duration), but still....

Anyway, I think it’s decent overall, but I’d rather see a biokinetic Fighter. Let Sorcerers be the masters of telekinesis.

Why do the knives manifest and disappear with every attack? Why don’t they just disappear after they’re thrown? As written, it would invalidate Defensive Duelist as an option. Also, as written, they’re mutually exclusive with any magic weapons.

I’d recommend allowing a Psi Blade to manifest around physical blades, in addition to the pure psi knives.

Otherwise, I like it. It sort of takes a little bit from multiple disciplines, which feels like something a skillmonkey class like Rogues should do.

I love Psychic Discovery and Psychic Sorcery.… That said, part of why I love it is that it has the potential to remove expensive consumed material costs. Much as I like it, the potential for “free” Glyphs, etc could be rather broken.… On the other hand, it’s only a chance to get around that cost, so maybe it’s ok. (I really want it to be ok.)

Psychic Strike: I assume you’re supposed to be able to spam this bonus damage on something like Firewall once per turn, though only against one creature. But the language could be clearer.

Mind Over Body: I thought this Psionic Soul was supposed to be focused on telepathy? What’s this grab-bag of ostensibly biokinetic powers doing here? As much as I love free / cheap flight, the only thing that fits with the rest of the subclass is See Invisibility - & even that would be better as Detect Thoughts.

I'd suggest saving the biokinesis for Fighters or Monks.

Psychic Aura: It’s cool, though I don’t like the fact that spamming the die implies a decent chance to lose your die for the day.

Overall, I like it. Except that “Mind Over Body” doesn’t fit with the telepathic themes present in the rest of the subclass (even Psionic Discovery / Sorcery are vaguely telepathic). But, then again, it seems like Bards would make better telepaths than Sorcerers would. And as much as I love the lvl 1 abilities, they really make more thematic sense on a Bard, though Sorcerers definitely need something like Psionic Discovery much more than Bards do.

I’d rather see Sorcerers as masters of telekinesis instead. Dual-wielding invisible Mage Hands, for instance. And they should get to spend a sorcery point to re-roll a PTD, and keep the preferred roll.

I see Bards get shafted again on spell choice. Apparently, Vicious Mockery has to be the only damaging cantrip a pure Bard can ever get without feats. Speaking of which, Mind Sliver should probably be downgraded to deal d4’s, since it penalizes the next save - which is probably a more potent debuff than penalizing its next attack.

Otherwise, the spells seem cool and roughly appropriate for their levels.

The feat tax, while mitigated by mostly being half-feats, is still ill-advised. Any class other than Fighter, and maybe Rogue, gets too few ASI’s for that kind of setup. Also, while these subclasses shouldn’t get an extra Psi Talent die, they should get an extra daily use of Psi Replenishment.

Otherwise, they all seem pretty fair as standalone feats. Even Telepathy / Telekinetic, half (a third?) of which just duplicate cantrips you could get via Magic Initiate instead, are stronger than their Magic Initiate counterparts in some way.

So, yeah. There’s some interesting ideas here, though the execution could be improved upon. But the Psi Die’s random chance to be lost for the whole day doesn’t sound very fun, and should be tweaked.

Thematically, I personally think Sorcerers should get telekinesis, Bards should get telepathy, Fighters should probably get biokinesis, Monks should get perspicacity (truesight, blindsight, precognition, that kind of thing), and Rogues (being the skillmonkeys that they are) should dabble in multiple disciplines, but focus on their untraceable Psychic Blades. Idk how well such a setup would echo the psionics of past editions, but it feels most appropriate to me.

I like the Psi Die, but if the size needs to vary, then either downgrading while already at a d4 should lock it into that size, or you should be able to default to smaller sizes with at-will powers. With either of these options, you wouldn’t lose out on the subclasses’ staples, yet the stronger powers (which always downgrade your die) could still be used up.

KorvinStarmast

2020-04-14, 08:31 PM

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/psionic-options-revisited
Unique yet fiddly mechanics. What I like most about 5e is Less Fiddly. This is a step backwards.

Like the feat for Wild Talent. Any one can have psychic powers ... just like in 1e, sort of.

The spells and cantrips are OK, but with a sorcerer... Quicken, Mind sliver, someone just got a -1d4 on the spell you are about to cast on them like Hold Person or banishment: right? hmmm.

Why not do this like Battle Master and be less fiddly? I think because of what Max showed with the Monte Carlo plot.

You never run out, you ebb and flow.

I need to see this in play from levels 3 through 8 to get a feel for whether it is good or not.

Last but not least: how about some GOO Warlock Specific Psychic stuff besides a cantrip?

Daphne

2020-04-14, 08:44 PM

Why not do this like Battle Master and be less fiddly?

Unfortunately, WotC is avoiding making subclasses that are just reskinned Battle Masters after the bad reception of UA Cavalier, Monster Hunter and Scout Fighter.

Segev

2020-04-14, 08:46 PM

Unfortunately, WotC is avoiding making subclasses that are just reskinned Battle Masters after the bad reception of UA Cavalier, Monster Hunter and Scout Fighter.

Why’d they get bad reception?

Kane0

2020-04-14, 08:48 PM

Probably because it looks lazy, and I would agree.

Mind you, maneuvers should probably have been more integrated than a single subclass to begin with, but here we are.

Daithi

2020-04-14, 09:00 PM

I like the new UA, although I think the last Soulknife was INT based while this one uses the new dice mechanic. I liked the idea of combining Soulknife-3/Bladesinger-17. I think it still works but not as much synergy.

HPisBS

2020-04-14, 09:02 PM

Mind you, maneuvers should probably have been more integrated than a single subclass to begin with, but here we are.

Should've been integral to Monks. Tripping, disarming, countering, etc - these are all things that belong with martial arts.

But we're getting a bit off-topic lol

catagent101

2020-04-14, 09:15 PM

J-H

2020-04-14, 09:26 PM

I like this a lot better than the last UA. I would agree with possibly changing Psychic Sorcerer to be INT-dependent instead of CHA-dependent.

I'd like a few more "spells" but it's good enough. I would actually play the PS. The 14th-level benefits are a great fit.

Psi Knight is OK, better than Champion but maybe worse than Battlemaster. As someone already commented, Jedi mobility. It's a bit of a monkish take on the Fighter, so it should be good.

Soulknife is eh, a bit flavorless, but OK. It may fall behind due to never getting an enhancement bonus... but then again, psychic damage > weapon damage almost always. Carry that +2 short sword for when you really need to hit, but otherwise, use the mind blade for a nearly-never resisted ranged or melee option.

Kane0

2020-04-14, 09:28 PM

Scribbling down thoughts here, but how about we keep the disciplines concept from the previous UAs, and incorporate this die mechanic without some of the randomness. Say each discipline gives a talent/focus and three powers; one that rolls the Psi Die, one that drops the Psi Die one size (perhaps to a minimum size) and one that uses up the Psi Die entirely until it is recharged. Psi Die size and recovery would vary between classes/subclasses, each of which would have access to a different set of Disciplines so there will be overlap but no single class or subclass will be able to pick from all of them.

Edit: This would also mean that a class table wouldn't need so many columns.

Damon_Tor

2020-04-14, 10:33 PM

There's no limit to the number of times per turn a Psi Knight can use Psi-Powered Leap? So you could potentially make 15 1-foot "long jumps" augmented 15 times. Adding something like 15(2d10+10)= 315 extra feet to their movement for the turn, basically for free. Double that if you're dashing. Triple it if you can dash as a bonus action. Sextuple that if you're a Tabaxi or Simic. That... probably needs to be looked at.

Otherwise, this is good stuff. I like the Psionic Talent concept. All three subclasses are pretty tight.

I've been pretty critical of how they've handled the Soulknife in the past on account of its one of my favorite concepts and it's never lived up to my hopes. I like this one: I like that it's been made independent from intelligence, so he's free to be a dex/cha infiltrator type, which is what the "no weapons" concept plays into the best. I'm a bit annoyed that the off-hand strike downgrades to a d4. The difference between a d6 and a d4 is so minor it barely seems worth the effort to reach for a different die. That's a pretty minor quibble though.

The sorcerer is pretty neat. Cool way to give him more "spells known" without really.

I have some issues with how the feats work, and how they're supposed to interact with the classes.

For example, as a Soulknife, could I take Wild Talent, use Psi-Boosted Ability to boost a skill check, then use Psi-Bolstered Knack to boost it again? As written, yes you can, but it doesn't seem like this is intended. Imagine trying to grapple someone who can reliably add 2d6 to their athletics checks. And this is on a class that already has expertise and reliable talent.

Something else that's also odd to me: the Psionic Talent Die you get from Wild Talent increases in size based on your character level, not the level in any given class, because it's a feat. But if you get the die from your class it goes up only on class levels. It seems odd to me that a character that has 10 levels in Soulknife and 10 levels in Psi Knight would have a smaller Talent Die than someone with 3 levels in Soulknife and a Feat.

Amechra

2020-04-14, 10:40 PM

For example, as a Soulknife, could I take Wild Talent, use Psi-Boosted Ability to boost a skill check, then use Psi-Bolstered Knack to boost it again? As written, yes you can, but it doesn't seem like this is intended. Imagine trying to grapple someone who can reliably add 2d6 to their athletics checks. And this is on a class that already has expertise and reliable talent.

Psi-Bolstered Knack only works if you've failed the roll, so it should be fine. At the same time... replace a sneak attack die that rolled poorly with a bigger die. Do it. You know you want to.

KorvinStarmast

2020-04-14, 10:48 PM

The die mechanic fits really well for Wild Magic type stuff. I really want to see them do a Wild Magic UA using this mechanic.

It doesn't work well for psionics though, it feels more like channeling "powers that cannot be controlled" more than the effects of great mental discipline.Yeah, it feels wrong to be so random.

Maybe do it more like bard inspiration and recharge on a short rest, and then each use takes you down a die size. Might still be fiddly, but better reflects the discipline and the "draining your power" bit.

For example, level 6 Psi with Int 18. Has 4 d8 per short rest.
Each time a d8 is used it's now a d6, each time a d6 is used it's now a d4, d4 use ends that die. You keep the die in front of you at the table, there is an easy visual signature there. Recharge on a short rest. (If you see Max Wilson's Monte Carlo plot, this might be more powerful but you also don't get the "recharge it all" thing).

Or, start with d4 at level 1(for those who take the feat), d6 at level 5, d8 at level 9, d10 at level 13, d12 at level 17. Dice use only drains charge to smaller die size. (Short rest recharge!)

Still fiddly, but a simple dwindling of power between short rests.
Sort of like ki, but different. And not random.

With an int of 20 at level 17, I start with 5 d12's in front of me ... I have not run the numbers but these look similar to the Monte Carlo results, sort of. But maybe my proposal is too powerful. (Quadratic Psion?)

And dice sales go up at the FLGS. :smallbiggrin:

MaxWilson

2020-04-14, 11:07 PM

(If you see Max Wilson's Monte Carlo plot, this might be more powerful but you also don't get the "recharge it all" thing).

Due credit: the plot was from PhantomSoul.

Foxhound438

2020-04-14, 11:14 PM

Yeah, I'm all aboard this die size gimmick. It needs some changes (see further below), but if they fix it this could be a fun mechanic to play around with. Actually kind of love the classes, just having a few problems:

1) The fighter's damage reduction option looks too strong at level 3. Obviously gets way less good dealing with multiple attacks, and doesn't scale to keep up late game, but I worry for those percentage of games that don't get much past level 4, as this could have you out-tanking pretty much anything else available at that level. For a good point of reference, this is probably about twice as good as a "heroism" spell on the math alone, and it doesn't require a spell slot or concentration, and can be flexed onto anything that's taking heat from round to round. That said, it's only stronger than a 1st level spell that no one really takes as far as I've seen, so it definitely could be fine.

2) The Rogue's "rend mind" should probably calculate its DC off of int, not dex. Not a balance concern at all, as this is still worse than a monk's stunning strike in most cases.

3) psychic sorcery lets you cheat costly consumable components.

This just seems messy to track and adds unnecessary RNG into the game

I could see tracking being an issue if you're playing online, but in person it should be easy enough. Most people have an extra die set, and you could just set the die that you're at on your character sheet somewhere, replacing it with the size up or down as you go.

The new feats are pretty interesting - I can see Wild Talent becoming a popular option, since you can use it with any ability score. Wild Talent → Metabolic Control seems to be tailor-made for Monks, too.

This went through my head as well, but the thing about monks and short rests is that you're still limited to the number of fights in a day more than anything else (see "5 minute adventuring day"). In my experience, if there's any break of initiative chain at all, you can sit around for an hour, so the minute long refresh doesn't do much better...

I don't like the flavor of "this represents you burning through/conserving your psionic energy," though. Both of those fluff explanations are choices made, and the die doesn't give you a choice, so it doesn't...match fiction to mechanics, so to speak. For the reduction, I could see it being something about "straining your psychic powers," but I am not sure how to frame fluff for the roll of a 1 restoring them.

Agree with this, maybe they should re-work some of the abilities to be a bit weaker baseline, but having something like "limit breaker" effects that you can choose to apply by dropping the die size. That way you have a known quantity of resource, plus a small static boost that keeps you feeling psionic while you aren't burning out. Probably could put the mechanic on a short rest to go up to starting size, but again it would require a re-tooling of most of the abilities.

If they are going to use psi dice it should be a pool of dice like the battle masters superiority dice or the arcane archers mystic shots.

Eh, hard disagree. Half the fun of new content to me is finding new playstyles and unique effects. Having everything fit the same mold with a new coat of thematic paint doesn't do much for me, and frankly if someone wanted old mechanics with new fluff, you can already do that yourself.

HPisBS

2020-04-14, 11:14 PM

Yeah, it feels wrong to be so random.

Maybe do it more like bard inspiration and recharge on a short rest, and then each use takes you down a die size. Might still be fiddly, but better reflects the discipline and the "draining your power" bit.

For example, level 6 Psi with Int 18. Has 4 d8 per short rest.
Each time a d8 is used it's now a d6, each time a d6 is used it's now a d4, d4 use ends that die. You keep the die in front of you at the table, there is an easy visual signature there. Recharge on a short rest. (If you see Max Wilson's Monte Carlo plot, this might be more powerful but you also don't get the "recharge it all" thing).

Or, start with d4 at level 1(for those who take the feat), d6 at level 5, d8 at level 9, d10 at level 13, d12 at level 17. Dice use only drains charge to smaller die size. (Short rest recharge!)

Still fiddly, but a simple dwindling of power between short rests.
Sort of like ki, but different. And not random.

With an int of 20 at level 17, I start with 5 d12's in front of me ... I have not run the numbers but these look similar to the Monte Carlo results, sort of. But maybe my proposal is too powerful. (Quadratic Psion?)

And dice sales go up at the FLGS. :smallbiggrin:

I like it in theory, but how do you account for those powers that are supposed to always downgrade the die? Minus two sizes? Minus a whole die, regardless of its current size?

Edit:

3) psychic sorcery lets you cheat costly consumable components.

- Gives you a chance to cheat expensive consumables. In that respect, at least, the die is something of a balancing factor.

Damon_Tor

2020-04-14, 11:19 PM

Interesting, Psionic Veil fades after you deal damage to a creature or force a creature to make a saving throw, not when you attack or cast a spell.

That means if you make your initial attack and miss, you're still invisible, and you're still unseen for your bonus action attack likely to follow. If you cast a spell that neither deals damage nor forces a creature to make a save, you remain invisible.

I find Rend Mind really disappointing. 1/turn Stunning Strike... at level 17? When most other Rogue subclasses are getting stuff like taking two turns on round 1, getting big boosts to damage or stealing spells? If I wanted Stunning Strike I would just MC monk, at least then I'd get to make a bunch of extra attacks and stuff too.

Interesting note, the way the Psychic Blades feature is written, you could use the blades for your Martial Arts/Flurry of Blows attacks. They also qualify as monk weapons. Deliberate synergy I expect, which makes Rend Mind extra insulting: if they want us to MC monk instead of progressing Soulknife further they could just say so.

Damon_Tor

2020-04-14, 11:20 PM

Psi-Bolstered Knack only works if you've failed the roll, so it should be fine.

...

If I didn't fail the check, why would I need it?

MaxWilson

2020-04-14, 11:31 PM

Misterwhisper

2020-04-14, 11:49 PM

Interesting. So you can also throw nets without losing the invisibility, because nets deal zero damage. You can also grapple/shove, Disarm, or steal everything in their pockets.

With the way this UA is written and just the verbiage of it along with the balance, I think a lower ranking member of the team wrote this.

Also, the many other spells and things that do not cause damage and have no save.

Arkhios

2020-04-15, 12:08 AM

Mystic may have (finally) been abandoned, and the Wizard subclass as well (good riddance for both, I say). But I don't see anything that explicitly says there won't be a Psion or some other fully psionic class in the future. In addition to these subclasses.

Regarding the nomenclature, I don't know where they dug up Psi Knight to replace Psychic Warrior with. I would've much preferred the latter name, but there is some added value in speaking of a knighthood. It gives them more flavor, if anything.

I'm glad they decided to keep Soulknife as a rogue subclass, but I'm a little baffled why they chose to change the blades' functionality so much. If I'm reading this right, the blades appear only when you make an attack, if you choose so, and then disappear. Would it be so bad to just let them remain until dismissed? Not saying this was a bad approach, just a bit weird. Then again, psionics should be weird, so maybe this is an intended aspect?
One more thing, that I'm not sure if I read right: is the blades' bonus action attack's damage roll also modified by the ability used to make the attack? That would make Soulknife perhaps the best rogue for dual wielding without using two-weapon fighting rules per sé.

I do detest their approach to get rid off iconic power names such as Id Insinuation, even if they were implemented otherwise as class features.

Psionic Talent Die seemed at first glance very annoying feature, but I thought the same of Battle Master's Superiority and Maneuvers, which I have grown to like. I'm willing to give it the benefit of doubt. Maybe it's a good one, after all. As someone said earlier, it may take some time to get used to.

Segev

2020-04-15, 12:12 AM

MaxWilson

2020-04-15, 12:23 AM

Lockwolfe

2020-04-15, 12:41 AM

HPisBS

2020-04-15, 01:08 AM

I'm somewhat weirdly more okay with this subclass getting universal spell access, unlike my feelings on the Versatile Spellcasting thing from a prior UA that let sorcerers and a few other classes out-wizard the wizard.

I think it's mostly because this is locked behind one subclass, rather than making any sorcerer you like out-wizard the wizard for spells usable tomorrow.

Come on, now. Out wizard the wizard? By trading in one known spell per day?

But anyway, back on topic, this psi sorc is limited to divination / enchantment for this nearly on-the-fly bonus spell. So while it's versatile, it takes 10 minutes, potentially costs you your other subclass abilities, and only opens up part of your own spell list to you.

I see it as a cool way to address the sorc's spells known problem... though 4 or 5 bonus thematic spells would do it much, much better.

rickayelm

2020-04-15, 01:20 AM

MaxWilson

2020-04-15, 01:21 AM

Come on, now. Out wizard the wizard? By trading in one known spell per day?

...365 spells per year.

But anyway, back on topic, this psi sorc is limited to divination / enchantment for this nearly on-the-fly bonus spell. So while it's versatile, it takes 10 minutes, potentially costs you your other subclass abilities, and only opens up part of your own spell list to you.

Exactly. And it's not permanent, so together with the restrictions you mentioned it doesn't feel bad in the same way as Spell Versatility.

The more I look at these the less I like them. I would never take the soul knife over the arcane trickster. And the sorcerer subclass has the same problem as the Wizard one did, in the Dark Sun setting you are supposed to be able to be a Psion without arcane magic. And since Dark Sun is the most iconic psi setting you need to be able to follow its fluff with any psi system you create, otherwise why bother.

This is a great point. Psionic Soul does not fit into Darksun at all.

P. G. Macer

2020-04-15, 01:33 AM

Come on, now. Out wizard the wizard? By trading in one known spell per day?

But anyway, back on topic, this psi sorc is limited to divination / enchantment for this nearly on-the-fly bonus spell. So while it's versatile, it takes 10 minutes, potentially costs you your other subclass abilities, and only opens up part of your own spell list to you.

I see it as a cool way to address the sorc's spells known problem... though 4 or 5 bonus thematic spells would do it much, much better.

I agree. While Wizards claims the Psionic Soul is descended from the Aberrant Mind, and there is definitely viability in that argument, all but one* of the bonus spells the Aberrant Mind got were either not sorcerer spells or not divination/enchantment, which particularly annoys me because the spells were so thematic, while this feels very bland, so it is 90% impossible to replicate that old feature without multiclassing.

*Detect Thoughts, for those playing at home.

Arkhios

2020-04-15, 01:57 AM

Kane0

2020-04-15, 02:02 AM

Waazraath

2020-04-15, 02:38 AM

I don't like this. :smallfrown:

Why? Because psionic power comes from within?

Psionics is the power of the mind. Not everybody has a dragon in their family, but everyone has a mind. Of the various origins suggested in the document, being "trained by a githzerai monk to unlock the psionic potential within yourself" is the least sorcerous, and the most in line with what a psion is supposed to be.

5e could use a third Int-based class, and the mystic/psion was a great candidate for the job.

Yes. Because in all the fluff, lore etc. so far in DnD the wizard is the guy who learned magic by studying, reading books, using words and gestures and strange components. While the psion (or whatever name you give it) has a power that comes from within, by unlocking the power of the own mind.

As for 5e, the Sorcerer is the casting class for which 'power from within' is the most the case: the power doesn't come from gods, nature, a patron, or the arcane knowledge that allows manipulation of the weave: but from the self.

And yes, it irks a bit that the sorcerer is a cha class, while the psion (staple psionic class) is int. And I agree that a 3rd int-based class is most welcome. And probably the sorcerer subclass should be more like the wilder (3.5): more an untrained, uncontrolled power then iron mental discipline through endless hours of meditation, as the Psion was. (And on that note, I think this new weird dice mechanic is suitable for this subclass, but totally not for other psionic classes, that assume mental discipline - it's too random, and would be more appropriate for the wild magic sorcerer as some others have mentioned).

But the decades long fluff makes the psion as a subclass from the wizard totally incompatible, in my view.

Jerrykhor

2020-04-15, 03:47 AM

Yakmala

2020-04-15, 03:56 AM

I appreciate that they are trying to make a unifying mechanic to link all of the psionic sub-classes, but I don't like the execution.

Mechanically, it's too RNG for my tastes and requires additional bookkeeping.

From a fiction standpoint, it just doesn't click. From novels to movies to comic books, characters with psionic talents, unless they are insane or just discovering their powers, are almost always depicted as having finely honed control over their minds. The randomness built into this new system feels out of place with that depiction.

Tes

2020-04-15, 05:20 AM

The die changing mechanic sounds dumb. There will be some days where you can keep rolling 4s and 5s and keep going, but there will be some days where you roll 6 and 4 and then you're out.

It actually punishes you for rolling well, and rewards you for rolling low. I can't help but feel its pretty stupid.

The soulknife sucks. They have them use these psi blades in place of actual weapons, which could be magic weapons, which would most likely be leagues better than the psi blades except for concealment. And still can't even have the standard TWF? Rubbish. Why does WotE hate TWF? I just want to wield 2 identical blades that deal the same damage, because they look the same, and they are the same blade from your same mind.
A couple people did the math and in between the free refresh 1/day as a bonus action and the statistics involved you're pretty much good to go for a while even at level 1.
As soon as you reach a level that increases dice size you're very unlikely to flat out run out, unless you actively use features that reduce die size.

Compared to a Level 1-4 Caster's Spell Slots you're at worst getting 4 uses of your ability a day (mind you with max rolls = maximum damage/distance benefit where applicable). That seems okay considering you're on average getting 2x6 uses even with some bad luck.

It's a lot less random than the dice mechanic involved suggests. Especially since the low end of things (rolling 1s) is going to pretty much negate any negative experience with it when it comes up.

Mechanically this is different from existing stuff, and I can't claim it's badly designed in how it pairs upside and downsides.
The headscratcher is why Psionics would be this random. They're usually tailored to be precise "scalpel of the mind" or "mind over body" abilities, so that part is contradicted by its rules.

KorvinStarmast

2020-04-15, 05:38 AM

As a follow up to my rough idea up there: always drop a die size, and if all you have is a d4 you are done. (Again, this really needs play testing). I am more or less doing "back of the napkin approximations here.

Two different ways to approach this. Base it on proficiency level, or base it on INT ability score modifier.

Let's go with proficiency level.
At level 1, with the feat, you have a d4. Let's assume a 14 INT on the Fighter. 2d4 recharging on a short rest, which we'll assumed is two, so six per adventure day. This matches Proficiency of 2, but if the INT were 16 and we used ability score bonus, this psi wilder gets 9.

At level 5, we either get 9 (d6) and 9(d4) based on "two short rests" or we get something based on the abilithy score bonus.

At level 9, we see 12 d6 and 12 d4, based on two short rests, or something perhaps higher if someone pumps INT or gets a headband of Intellect.

At level 13, we see 15 d8, 15 d6, and 15 d4, (As we sould have done with an INT of 20)

Anyway, that's an illustration.

Too much?

diplomancer

2020-04-15, 05:41 AM

My thoughts:

I like the die, except that I think it's too powerful. It's almost at will, since the odds of running out are very low. I understand the fluff criticism, but mechanically it's solid.

About the "one more thing to track", it applies to the sorcerer, but not to the other classes. A psi knight has LESS things to keep track of than a battlemaster, eldritch knight, arcane archer, etc., a soul knife has LESS things to keep track of than an arcane trickster. And it's literally 1 die with a changing size, it's very easy to keep track of.

Classes: Psi Knight feels very strong (but maybe not too strong) soul knife feels about right, sorcerer needs reworking, specially the knowing spells mechanic. Every short rest, and indeed every morning at the end of a long rest, a sorcerer can add 6 spells known, that he will keep knowing for a long time (potentially the whole adventuring day at higher levels). That's way too powerful, unless the intent is that the new known spells do not add, but replace (UA is always somewhat rough, hard to tell the intent)

Wild talent feat is very good (maybe too good). Whether you are a grappler, a skill monkey or a counterspeller, this all day, no concentration, no action cost, no even limits per turn, adding of a level-scaling die is very good. It would be very good on its own, but it's also a half-feat (of any ability score to boot) AND it unlocks other feats. If it existed when I was creating my current character (v-human lore bard), I'd have taken it instead of actor at first level (we were rolling for ability scores, and my highest one was a 16).

Millstone85

2020-04-15, 06:50 AM

Yes. Because in all the fluff, lore etc. so far in DnD the wizard is the guy who learned magic by studying, reading books, using words and gestures and strange components. While the psion (or whatever name you give it) has a power that comes from within, by unlocking the power of the own mind.The psion is also a scholar, just one who studies the mind instead of the Weave.

As for 5e, the Sorcerer is the casting class for which 'power from within' is the most the case: the power doesn't come from gods, nature, a patron, or the arcane knowledge that allows manipulation of the weave: but from the self.In 5e, the sorcerer is as dependent on the Weave as other spellcasters. Their particular heritage just allows them to manipulate it in a way that is more intuitive than learned. A psion would be the opposite: Weave-independent and more learned than intuitive.

And yes, it irks a bit that the sorcerer is a cha class, while the psion (staple psionic class) is int. And I agree that a 3rd int-based class is most welcome. And probably the sorcerer subclass should be more like the wilder (3.5): more an untrained, uncontrolled power then iron mental discipline through endless hours of meditation, as the Psion was.Yes, exactly!

But the decades long fluff makes the psion as a subclass from the wizard totally incompatible, in my view.Oh, that sucked too. But it doesn't get any better with a sorcerer subclass instead.

Arkhios

2020-04-15, 06:54 AM

The more I look at these the less I like them. I would never take the soul knife over the arcane trickster. And the sorcerer subclass has the same problem as the Wizard one did, in the Dark Sun setting you are supposed to be able to be a Psion without arcane magic. And since Dark Sun is the most iconic psi setting you need to be able to follow its fluff with any psi system you create, otherwise why bother.

This is a great point. Psionic Soul does not fit into Darksun at all.

Here's a thought. If you're running a Dark Sun campaign, file out any mention of "Arcane" from the sorcerer (or just about any class, really) and look at the results. What do you have? A class who can cast spells. None of the spells themselves are described as "arcane" or "divine". A spell is just a spell.

Now, if you replace any notion of Arcane with Psionic, you have a class (or many classes) that fit in Athas just fine. Don't get hung up with the classes' "history" in previous editions. If you still want to keep arcane spellcasting, just replace the psionic themed subclasses' (of spellcasting classes) spell slots with spell points, call them Psi Points, and call it a day.

If you still want more, swap the Psionic Soul's Charisma dependencies with Intelligence (including Charisma Saving Throw proficiency to Intelligence Saving Throw Proficiency) and you have your perfect Psion (until an actual Psion becomes reality, which might as well never happen).

KorvinStarmast

2020-04-15, 07:12 AM

My thoughts:

I like the die, except that I think it's too powerful. It's almost at will, since the odds of running out are very low. There's a nice illustration of how long it takes before your run out of dice here (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/167647/22566). For example, the d12 case:
https://i.stack.imgur.com/tnyeDm.png
That seems to support your point. From the gentleman who put that together:

From these we can also get the average number of rolls we get to do with any one size of die:

Die | ~ how many rolls before out (rounded to nearest integer
_d6 | 10
_d8 | 18
d10 | 28
d12 | 40

Wild talent feat is very good (maybe too good).
It's the one feature from the whole UA that I think is worth adapting.

Whether you are a grappler, a skill monkey or a counterspeller, this all day, no concentration, no action cost, no even limits per turn, adding of a level-scaling die is very good. It would be very good on its own, but it's also a half-feat (of any ability score to boot) AND it unlocks other feats. If it existed when I was creating my current character (v-human lore bard), I'd have taken it instead of actor at first level (we were rolling for ability scores, and my highest one was a 16). OK, maybe it needs a tweak. :smallsmile:

Arkhios

2020-04-15, 07:29 AM

OK, maybe it needs a tweak. :smallsmile:

Start as a 1d4 and increase only up to 1d10 at same intervals? It's certainly worse than those who get it from class, but not entirely useless.

Fynzmirs

2020-04-15, 07:31 AM

Metabolic Control is a better Warlock capstone.

They really should take another look at a high-level warlock play.

diplomancer

2020-04-15, 07:59 AM

It's the one feature from the whole UA that I think is worth adapting.
OK, maybe it needs a tweak. :smallsmile:

Yeah ;)
It's actually more powerful than expertise, applies to all associated ability checks, AND it stacks with expertise.

I believe there is a tendency to believe that ability checks are less important than attack rolls or saving throws. Though this may be true in many games, specially the more combat-heavy ones, the very design choice of making it easier to increase your ability check bonuses than other rolls encourages builds that take advantage of that (like grapplers).

False God

2020-04-15, 08:18 AM

Regardless of how powerful or weak anything is, nothing here excites me in the slightest.

Segev

2020-04-15, 08:21 AM

The random, uncontrolled nature is a bit off for all but the wilder concept. Works for wild talents, I think. If psionics are rare and poorly-understood, with the subclasses representing “wilders” who have learned to live with and harness, but not master (in the sense of self-mastery) their gift and power, it makes sense.

Heck, it even works for a trained emotion-driven psychic who rides the highs and lows of his power. Still needs better fluff on the natural 1 replenishing a die size.

I can even come up with fluff for why you can’t rest (except for a long rest) to restore it, but use might: you can’t control that well of inner power very well, so just tapping it to try to soothe it can set it bursting forth.

I agree that a “master of the mind” psion type class will need something different. Even if that just means some solid mechanics for manipulating the PTD. From perhaps having a die per discipline so they track separately to means of “trading” between them (dice wholesale or just letting a 1 on one die replenish the size of another, possibility including recovering from empty to a d4), to means to actually choose what you roll under circumstances or with a resource.

MaxWilson

2020-04-15, 08:36 AM

The psion is also a scholar, just one who studies the mind instead of the Weave.

Historically, in AD&D, psionicists have been about the harmony between mind/body/spirit and are Con/Int/Wis-reliant, with Con roughly for psychometabolism, Int roughly for psychokinesis and I think at least half of psychoportation, Wis roughly for telepathy, metapsionics, and overall psionic strength.

It sounds like 3e does things a little differently and makes them a little less meditative and body-mindful. I don't see why it's a problem for 5E to follow suit and make them more purely willpower-oriented. I *do* see a problem though, flavor-wise, from Athasian "psionicists" (Psionic Souls) having access to abilities like Fireball and Counterspell.

Here's a thought. If you're running a Dark Sun campaign, file out any mention of "Arcane" from the sorcerer (or just about any class, really) and look at the results. What do you have? A class who can cast spells. None of the spells themselves are described as "arcane" or "divine". A spell is just a spell.

Now, if you replace any notion of Arcane with Psionic, you have a class (or many classes) that fit in Athas just fine.

Forget about the name. That's not the problem--"arcane" and "divine" aren't keywords in AD&D, they're just rough generalizations. The problem is that wizards do things one way and priests do things another, and psionicists do things yet a third way... and if someone is doing wizardly things like throwing Fireballs (psychokinetic Detonate behaves differently) or using Detect Magic or Dispel Magic or Silent Image or Mage Armor, you'd normally freak out and report them as an apparent Defiler who's probably wrecking your local ecosystem. And if Athasian psionicists are that similar to defilers, you'd expect them to be outcasts and pariahs too. But psionicsts aren't supposed to be outcasts on Athas.

If you still want more, swap the Psionic Soul's Charisma dependencies with Intelligence (including Charisma Saving Throw proficiency to Intelligence Saving Throw Proficiency) and you have your perfect Psion (until an actual Psion becomes reality, which might as well never happen).

Again, Psionicists are if anything more Wisdom-based than Int-based, but it would be more correct to say they rely on a harmony between body, mind, and spirit. And they do things recognizably differently than wizards, especially on Athas.

It might be the case that Athas just doesn't make sense to run in anything but AD&D 2nd edition. Trying to replicate psionicists in 5E might be doomed to failure. Psionic Soul definitely isn't Athas-appropriate as written. Maybe though if you remove access to Conjuration, Evocation and Illusion spells, that might be okay.

Non-Conjuration/Evocation/Illusion PHB sorcerer spells are:

True Strike - Divination Cantrip
Friends - Enchantment Cantrip
Blade Ward - Abjuration Cantrip
Mending - Transmutation Cantrip
Prestidigitation - Transmutation Cantrip
Chill Touch - Necromancy Cantrip
Message - Transmutation Cantrip
Charm Person - Enchantment 1
Comprehend Languages - Divination 1
Ray of Sickness - Necromancy 1
Mage Armor - Abjuration 1
Shield - Abjuration 1
Jump - Transmutation 1
Sleep - Enchantment 1
Feather Fall - Transmutation 1
Detect Magic - Divination 1
Expeditious Retreat - Transmutation 1
False Life - Necromancy 1
Detect Thoughts - Divination 2
Alter Self - Transmutation 2
Enhance Ability - Transmutation 2
Enlarge/Reduce - Transmutation 2
Suggestion - Enchantment 2
Levitate - Transmutation 2
Spider Climb - Transmutation 2
Knock - Transmutation 2
Crown of Madness - Enchantment 2
Blindness/Deafness - Necromancy 2
Hold Person - Enchantment 2
Darkvision - Transmutation 2
See Invisibility - Divination 2
Gaseous Form - Transmutation 3
Haste - Transmutation 3
Fly - Transmutation 3
Blink - Transmutation 3
Protection from Energy - Abjuration 3
Slow - Transmutation 3
Tongues - Divination 3
Counterspell - Abjuration 3
Water Breathing - Transmutation 3
Water Walk - Transmutation 3
Clairvoyance - Divination 3
Dispel Magic - Abjuration 3
Dominate Beast - Enchantment 4
Stoneskin - Transmutation 4
Confusion - Enchantment 4
Polymorph - Transmutation 4
Blight - Necromancy 4
Banishment - Abjuration 4
Dominate Person - Enchantment 5
Telekinesis - Transmutation 5
Hold Monster - Enchantment 5
Animate Objects - Transmutation 5
Globe of Invulnerability - Abjuration 6
True Seeing - Divination 6
Circle of Death - Necromancy 6
Mass Suggestion - Enchantment 6
Disintegrate - Transmutation 6
Move Earth - Transmutation 6
Eyebite - Necromancy 6
Finger of Death - Necromancy 7
Etherealness - Transmutation 7
Reverse Gravity - Transmutation 7
Power Word Stun - Enchantment 8
Dominate Monster - Enchantment 8
Time Stop - Transmutation 9
Power Word Kill - Enchantment 9

Any Darksun fans out there want to comment on how you'd feel about psionicists with access to the above abilities? Globe of Invulnerability feels weird to me and Finger of Death's zombiefication is outright wrong for a psionicist but others seem mostly okay.

Pex

2020-04-15, 08:53 AM

Dork_Forge

2020-04-15, 08:59 AM

Maybe they can steal from Bard and have the Psionic Die use the same mechanic as Bardic Inspiration with the difference being it's based off Intelligence and the Bard can only buff others not himself while the Psionic character can only buff himself not others.

I'd be perfectly happy with that solution, there's no reason it should be this weird mechanic (which I've only seen in AD&D adaptations, I think the Black Hack) and not something like Bardic Inspiration or even Superiority Dice. Then the Feats can give you one additional die with an ability that uses it and an at will or passive ability you always have.

MaxWilson

2020-04-15, 09:06 AM

The random, uncontrolled nature is a bit off for all but the wilder concept. Works for wild talents, I think. If psionics are rare and poorly-understood, with the subclasses representing “wilders” who have learned to live with and harness, but not master (in the sense of self-mastery) their gift and power, it makes sense.

Heck, it even works for a trained emotion-driven psychic who rides the highs and lows of his power. Still needs better fluff on the natural 1 replenishing a die size.

I can even come up with fluff for why you can’t rest (except for a long rest) to restore it, but use might: you can’t control that well of inner power very well, so just tapping it to try to soothe it can set it bursting forth.

Heh. For some reason that reminds me of writer's block: resting (i.e. procrastinating writing) doesn't do much, but sometimes just writing down the awful stuff and getting it out of the way frees up your brain to replace the awful stuff with something higher-quality. When you can't write, write!

diplomancer

2020-04-15, 09:08 AM

A nice thing I just noticed about all the feats. They don't "conflict" with each other, in the sense that you basically never have to choose which ability to use in a given combat round. You can play a "psionic warlock", for instance, and grab all of those feats, still having a 20 charisma, ok Dex and Con. The fact that almost all of them are half-feats also helps a lot.

Dork_Forge

2020-04-15, 09:11 AM

Segev

2020-04-15, 09:18 AM

The purpose of the mechanic is twofold. Whether you think these are worthy goals, or that it achieves them well, is worthy of discussion, but saying it has no purpose or is complexity-for-its-own-sake is, at best, debatable, and at worst, unhelpful if you want to see psionics actually make it into the game any time soon. Feedback needs to be more than, "This is dumb, do it like this other mechanic." You need to demonstrate an understanding of the goals they're trying to achieve, and give feedback that helps them achieve them, or that explains why those goals are not serving the fluff they're pushing.

As I perceive it, the psionic talent die (hereafter abbreviated as "dΨ"), in all its size-changing glory, is meant to do two primary things:

It is meant to enable a mechanic that can be used multiple times in a day, but not indefinitely.
It is meant to keep how long you can use it as something you're always guessing, at least a little, on.

It's clear their intent is that you have an absolute minimum of 4 uses of anything fueled by the die. Or, rather, of the die, which can fuel a large number of things.

This is another point that the die is apparently meant to achieve, given that taking multiple subclasses, or taking the feat and the subclasses, doesn't give you more dice. The dΨ is like the power point pool from 3.5: it's a unified resource. Unlike the power point pool, it doesn't grow, except as you level. ...except, only the feat says it doesn't give you an extra one. Do you get multiple dice, each growing in their own independent right, for multiclassing into multiple psionic subclasses? Each dΨ usable only for its own subclass?

SHOULD you?

My read on it was that the dΨ is meant to be a unified resource, as I said, and that you run out when you run out. This is cool...ish...except that the more options you have, the more you'll want to use it to take advantage of them, and it all eats the same resource.

On the other hand, if it's one dΨ per subclass, that's...closer to how I was imagining an eventual psion might work with disciplines. But also a lot more to track if you take advantage of it. Which is a bit counter to 5e's ethos.

Now, going back to the two primary things, the points to consider and give feedback on are:

Are these two goals in line with what psionics even should be?
If not, why not?
This is where you would give feedback on why the idea of the dΨ, especially its randomness and "raw, uncontrolled" feel, don't mesh with what you think psionics should be, by explaining what you want psionics TO be and how this doesn't work for that.
Does the random nature of the die actually achieve point 2 very well?
Is there a better mechanic to achieve it?
If it doesn't achieve it, is it because it's too predictable or too unpredictable?
Does the random nature of it interfere too strongly with the ability to feel like you can use these powers "a lot?"
How much is "a lot?"
How many times should you be confident you can use it before it starts feeling like you're running low?
Does the way the randomness works into the various abilities make them too unreliable?
Is the fact that you can just try again next round, since it only diminishes in size if you score your maximum and thus only failed to be enough if you couldn't have succeeded anyway, mitigate this?

This isn't exhaustive, but we need to focus on what we can glean as the goals from this, and why we either support or disapprove of the goals themselves, and whether the dΨ actually supports them. And, if not, why not, and possible ways to improve on it. "Just make it like superiority dice" is a possibility, but you have to explain what your goals in doing so are. And, if you do that, do you want to consider Battle Masters being "psionic" in nature? Do you want the same mechanic for psi as for maneuvers without them being the same thing, any more than you want spell slots and psionic slots to be the same thing? Any less?

If we want to see psionics make it out of UA, we need to give WotC something more than "you screwed up. I hate it."

ZRN

2020-04-15, 09:18 AM

Unless I'm missing something, Wild Talent looks extremely good for Dex-based classes and pure casters (especially those withOUT a psionic subclass, so the feat doesn't risk screwing over their class feature). Like, one of the best feats in the game good, considering you still get +1 to your main stat with it.

If you're a rogue (or monk or ranger or dex fighter), this talent basically gives you (another) Expertise on every Dex skill, PLUS initiative, PLUS decent bonus damage.
If you're a wizard, sorcerer, warlock, or bard, you get Expertise on a bunch of relevant skills PLUS on Counterspell rolls PLUS bonus damage to cantrips.

Unrelated: man, this sorcerer sucks compared to the Aberrant Mind. That one was obviously overpowered compared to other sorcerer subclasses, but it at least created a unique-feeling character. This time around they managed to make the psionics boring yet unreliable, AND found a way to actually incentivize you NOT to take relevant psion-ish spells (since you can get them for "free" with Psionic Discovery). Psychic Sorcery is fine if you just want to avoid verbal components, but it's useless if you're trying to replicate Subtle Spell because you might whiff the roll. Overall, though, I honestly don't think the subclass works without at least an expanded spell list (if not automatic free spells).

Also unrelated: the rogue and fighter subclasses look awesome and the feats do too; the only thing that makes me dislike them is the vagaries of the Psi Dice mechanic. As others in this thread have noted, it's super unlikely you'll lose your dice at higher levels, but before level 5 it's a 1 in 24 chance (not much less likely than rolling a natural 1). Maybe they could replace Psi Replenishment with something like, "You can meditate uninterrupted for 1 minute to restore your psi die to a d6." That way, a couple bad rolling streaks doesn't arbitrarily screw over your adventuring day at low levels. (No scaling for non-psi classes because yikes, those feats already scale enough. Maybe the psi classes could get improved replenishment that scales with your psi die?)

Oramac

2020-04-15, 09:32 AM

Having thought about it a bit more, if I were to redesign this, I would probably eliminate the size change from rolling, and only have size decrease with the powerful abilities that do it directly. Then I would eliminate going below a d4 (meaning you cannot use those powerful abilities if your die is a d4), but have the die size reset to maximum on a short rest, rather than a long one. This way, your main, basic abilities, such as the Psy Knight's Telekenetic strike is always available, while the stronger abilities become a powerful short rest resource, potentially tuned to be stronger than your average short rest resource, but coming with the side effect of weakening your always on abilities until the next rest.

I agree with this. I like the concept of the changing dice, but it does seem a bit unnecessarily complex for what it is. And I've personally always been a little turned off by features that require a ton of text to make sense. Short and sweet is better, IMO.

Also to note on the rogue subclass:

Also the same issue as all the other time they try to make a manifest weapon, what about when I find a magic weapon?

I really like the Soulknife, but you make a valid point here. I'd love to use that [insert magic sword here], but can't? Definitely needs some help there.

Segev

2020-04-15, 09:45 AM

I agree with this. I like the concept of the changing dice, but it does seem a bit unnecessarily complex for what it is

Could somebody making this claim please elaborate on it? I do get that there's complexity, here, but it's doing a specific job. What makes you say it's overly complex for the job it's doing?

clash

2020-04-15, 09:46 AM

I really like the Soulknife, but you make a valid point here. I'd love to use that [insert magic sword here], but can't? Definitely needs some help there.

I really like the soulknife as well, and personally I think people on this forum put way too much stock in magic weapons. They always seem to work under the assumptions that
a) You'll get a magic weapon
b) The magic weapon will be of a type that works for your build normally. Ie bow for an archer, polearm for a PM etc.
c) You wont get other magic items that are more valuable or useful than a magic weapon
That's a lot of assumptions to critique something on the basis of in my opinion.

The soulknife gets a magic weapon as part of the subclass that he
a) Can never lose or have confiscated temporarily
b) Can't have the damage traced back to him
c) deals on of the best damage types
d) works for his build
e) never requires attunement

Who cares if it doesnt stack with other magic weapons

Oramac

2020-04-15, 09:58 AM

I really like the soulknife as well, and personally I think people on this forum put way too much stock in magic weapons. They always seem to work under the assumptions that
a) You'll get a magic weapon
b) The magic weapon will be of a type that works for your build normally. Ie bow for an archer, polearm for a PM etc.
c) You wont get other magic items that are more valuable or useful than a magic weapon
That's a lot of assumptions to critique something on the basis of in my opinion.

The soulknife gets a magic weapon as part of the subclass that he
a) Can never lose or have confiscated temporarily
b) Can't have the damage traced back to him
c) deals on of the best damage types
d) works for his build
e) never requires attunement

Who cares if it doesnt stack with other magic weapons

Again, I agree, and I'm likely to be playing a Soulknife as written very soon (conveniently my character died just this past Monday).

I don't think not being able to use a magic weapon is that big of a deal, but it is a thing that should definitely be addressed.

Also, for me at least, I don't really care so much about +X weapons. I'd much prefer that Weapon of Warning over there, or something similar. Plus, I love to homebrew items, so it's near and dear to me.

jas61292

2020-04-15, 10:08 AM

Could somebody making this claim please elaborate on it? I do get that there's complexity, here, but it's doing a specific job. What makes you say it's overly complex for the job it's doing?

Perhaps interestingly, despite the fact that the comment to which you responded was one that said they agreed with my idea for a revision of this concept from the UA, I actually am not one that thinks the mechanic as presented is too complex. Maybe a bit complicated to explain, but once you get the idea, it is actually really simple. I think the better criticism would be that it is too random (especially with them putting in dice rolls in places that don't seem to need it), or that it doesn't do a good job of matching the wanted fantasy of psionics. In terms of simplicity though, I think it is pretty solid as is. Not the most simple thing, surely, but not particularly more complex than things like superiority dice, and way less complex than spellcasting.

That being said, it is the other things I mentioned that I think are the bigger issue. The randomness and the fit of the mechanics to the fluff. Personally, I don't picture psionics as being so random. That being said, rigid, distinct powers, split over multiple tiers of power is what magic is in 5e. Psionics that is just magic, "but totally not because its psionics and uses points," gets zero interest from me. If psionics is to justify its existing as more than just another flavor of magic, it must have an important distinction from magic, both in terms of the lore and the mechanics. If that distinction is going to involve lesser control of your powers and thus an element of randomness in mechanics, that is fine. But that would probably not be my first choice for how to do it.

What I like about the adjustments that I suggested was that, when done that way, it creates a distinct niche, both lore-wise and mechanically, that captures the feel I have for psionics. Psionics would be more controlled in that you cannot use up too much by accident, but it would not just be a clone of spells. It would be a simple fantasy of having basic powers that you can use freely at will, and strong powers that put strain on your mind, weakening other powers until you rest. This is easier to accept as the in world interpretation of psionics, and would be far easier to balance mechanically, because the only randomness would be in the effectiveness of certain powers, not in how much or little you get to use them.

micahaphone

2020-04-15, 10:20 AM

Why does WotC keep giving UA sorcerers a domain spell list, only to never publish or keep it in follow up? Do they enjoy taunting us? "Yes, we know this is a thematic way to alleviate one of the biggest issues with sorcerer. No, we will never include this in any finished product."

Would Aberrant Mind sorc still be OP if the free mage armor was removed from it? That seems like the least thematic thing it had.

Dork_Forge

2020-04-15, 10:26 AM

I really like the soulknife as well, and personally I think people on this forum put way too much stock in magic weapons. They always seem to work under the assumptions that
a) You'll get a magic weapon
b) The magic weapon will be of a type that works for your build normally. Ie bow for an archer, polearm for a PM etc.
c) You wont get other magic items that are more valuable or useful than a magic weapon
That's a lot of assumptions to critique something on the basis of in my opinion.

The soulknife gets a magic weapon as part of the subclass that he
a) Can never lose or have confiscated temporarily
b) Can't have the damage traced back to him
c) deals on of the best damage types
d) works for his build
e) never requires attunement

Who cares if it doesnt stack with other magic weapons

I partially agree with you, but if you're going to completely lock it out of using other weapons (and it's not just magic weapons, it also locks the Rogue out of using poisons) then there needs to be some kind of improvement. A Battlemaster gets their SD at 3rd level, but there's two die size increases (as well as a pool increase) to keep that 3rd level ability scaling with the challenges the character faces. It wouldn't hurt anything to follow suit on the Mystic Soulknife and give it a way to gain +x bonuses or maybe even throw an extra d6 in there later on (and there's no good reason to make the bonus action a d4 that never improves, or make it lower than the main action to begin with).

Segev

2020-04-15, 10:31 AM

Perhaps interestingly, despite the fact that the comment to which you responded was one that said they agreed with my idea for a revision of this concept from the UA, I actually am not one that thinks the mechanic as presented is too complex. Maybe a bit complicated to explain, but once you get the idea, it is actually really simple. I think the better criticism would be that it is too random (especially with them putting in dice rolls in places that don't seem to need it), or that it doesn't do a good job of matching the wanted fantasy of psionics. In terms of simplicity though, I think it is pretty solid as is. Not the most simple thing, surely, but not particularly more complex than things like superiority dice, and way less complex than spellcasting.

That being said, it is the other things I mentioned that I think are the bigger issue. The randomness and the fit of the mechanics to the fluff. Personally, I don't picture psionics as being so random. That being said, rigid, distinct powers, split over multiple tiers of power is what magic is in 5e. Psionics that is just magic, "but totally not because its psionics and uses points," gets zero interest from me. If psionics is to justify its existing as more than just another flavor of magic, it must have an important distinction from magic, both in terms of the lore and the mechanics. If that distinction is going to involve lesser control of your powers and thus an element of randomness in mechanics, that is fine. But that would probably not be my first choice for how to do it.

What I like about the adjustments that I suggested was that, when done that way, it creates a distinct niche, both lore-wise and mechanically, that captures the feel I have for psionics. Psionics would be more controlled in that you cannot use up too much by accident, but it would not just be a clone of spells. It would be a simple fantasy of having basic powers that you can use freely at will, and strong powers that put strain on your mind, weakening other powers until you rest. This is easier to accept as the in world interpretation of psionics, and would be far easier to balance mechanically, because the only randomness would be in the effectiveness of certain powers, not in how much or little you get to use them.I haven't internalized your suggestions, so can't respond to them, but I overall agree with your discussion points on the strengths and issues of this dΨ mechanic. It does feel too random and uncontrolled for the fantasy of the psion.

I think...and I could be wrong...they're trying to hark back to when psionics was something anybody COULD have, but it was rare and it was NOT controlled (in theory; in practice, it was just another resources and oft overpowered if you rolled well when randomly determining what you got). I think all of these are supposed to be "wild talents." If I look at it in that perspective, I'm more okay with the mechanic. But it won't do by itself for the fantasy of the powerful master of the mind.

Why does WotC keep giving UA sorcerers a domain spell list, only to never publish or keep it in follow up? Do they enjoy taunting us? "Yes, we know this is a thematic way to alleviate one of the biggest issues with sorcerer. No, we will never include this in any finished product."

Would Aberrant Mind sorc still be OP if the free mage armor was removed from it? That seems like the least thematic thing it had.

Free mage armor is good, but hardly a deal-maker or deal-breaker with most discussions of power.

I will say this about "domain spell lists" for sorcerers: I wouldn't expect them with any one officially-printed sorcerer subclass unless the subclass itself was really underwhelming to make up for it. I wouldn't want to see that latter, either.

What I would hope for is some sort of "Players' Options" or similar book in concept, something like Xanathar's Guide, with more optional rules. In it, it will include potential power-creep suggestions, and amongst those will be lists of domain spells for sorcerer subclasses that have already been printed.

After that, I would expect future subclasses to have, "If your DM is using ______ and its optional domain spells rules, here is a suggested list," included by default.

clash

2020-04-15, 10:35 AM

I partially agree with you, but if you're going to completely lock it out of using other weapons (and it's not just magic weapons, it also locks the Rogue out of using poisons) then there needs to be some kind of improvement. A Battlemaster gets their SD at 3rd level, but there's two die size increases (as well as a pool increase) to keep that 3rd level ability scaling with the challenges the character faces. It wouldn't hurt anything to follow suit on the Mystic Soulknife and give it a way to gain +x bonuses or maybe even throw an extra d6 in there later on (and there's no good reason to make the bonus action a d4 that never improves, or make it lower than the main action to begin with).

I completely agree on the d4. It seems like a completely unnecessary reduction. As for improvement both soul blades and rend mind offer forms of improvements to the soulknife, but I could see offering a way to improve the knives directly. Maybe just scale to a d8 or something like kensei's sharpen the blade but using psi die instead

Daphne

2020-04-15, 10:37 AM

jas61292

2020-04-15, 10:40 AM

I haven't internalized your suggestions, so can't respond to them, but I overall agree with your discussion points on the strengths and issues of this dΨ mechanic. It does feel too random and uncontrolled for the fantasy of the psion.

I think...and I could be wrong...they're trying to hark back to when psionics was something anybody COULD have, but it was rare and it was NOT controlled (in theory; in practice, it was just another resources and oft overpowered if you rolled well when randomly determining what you got). I think all of these are supposed to be "wild talents." If I look at it in that perspective, I'm more okay with the mechanic. But it won't do by itself for the fantasy of the powerful master of the mind.

That makes sense. While again, it might not be my first choice for the fantasy of psionics, I think it is a perfectly acceptable one, and if implemented in a satisfactory way, would be just fine. In that sense, I think that this UA is a good start. I certainly don't think the mechanics are good enough yet, what with weird things tied to dice rolls that don't feel like they should be, and certain things that seem really freaking powerful given out nearly at will with the only check on them seeming to be the fact that it is not impossible to run out. But if this is the fantasy they choose to embrace, the core mechanics are a solid starting point, and I would not complain if it gets an official release (so long as it is balanced).

Oh, and by the way, I love your use of dΨ. Perfect way to shorthand it.

Luccan

2020-04-15, 10:48 AM

They added spells for the Ranger, I don't know why adding some would be an issue for the Sorcerer when it's known to be one of the main criticisms of the class.

It doesn't need to be 10 spells like the Aberrant Mind got, 5 spells would already help a lot.

I think they learned the wrong lesson when people got upset about the bonus spells for Ranger subclasses. That or because they're super resistant to fixing problems made earlier in the edition, they don't want people complaining when the refuse to give other Sorcerers bonus spells.

Edit: what's the actual benefit to only getting half of subtle spell? I know if your roll well you actually get subtle spell+, but under the assumption that it's not super likely to happen, you're unlikely to use the ability except in situations where you have access to the components and can move freely anyway. Is the Psionic Soul supposed to be a Stealth class?

J-H

2020-04-15, 10:48 AM

Lockwolfe

2020-04-15, 10:55 AM

Overreaction, much?

Mystic UA was around for years until now. It had its chance, but eventually was found unwanted by the majority (and these forums or its users do NOT represent the majority)

There hasn’t been an option to submit feedback for years either. They haven’t even attempted a Psion class since. Really though, my comment was aimed at their hastiness to scrap things in general. I’m almost afraid to comment in feedback that an option is overpowered because they will either throw it out or publish a lackluster underpowered version. This is one of the few times they’ve revised something for play test material, but if people don’t like this iteration I wouldn’t be surprised if they just gave up.

ZRN

2020-04-15, 10:57 AM

I will say this about "domain spell lists" for sorcerers: I wouldn't expect them with any one officially-printed sorcerer subclass unless the subclass itself was really underwhelming to make up for it. I wouldn't want to see that latter, either.

What I would hope for is some sort of "Players' Options" or similar book in concept, something like Xanathar's Guide, with more optional rules. In it, it will include potential power-creep suggestions, and amongst those will be lists of domain spells for sorcerer subclasses that have already been printed.

After that, I would expect future subclasses to have, "If your DM is using ______ and its optional domain spells rules, here is a suggested list," included by default.

While adding a bunch of spells known a la the Aberrant Mind is definitely "power creep," you could at least arguably add a couple core spells known without breaking anything; divine soul does so, for example.

Another non-power-creep option would be a full replacement of the core spell list for the subclass: maybe a psionic sorcerer gets access to Dissonant Whispers, the various tentacle spells, etc. but loses access to cone of cold, fireball, etc. It's not a system that would make sense for most subclasses, but if you're really trying to wedge a psion character into an existing class's chassis, it might be necessary in this case.

Scarytincan

2020-04-15, 10:57 AM

I feel like for the feats, both having ki points and especially gith races (seeing as, yunno, the ability is called GITHZERAI / GITHYANKI PSIONICS) should also be included as possible prerequisites. Would finally find monks a reason to seriously consider githzerai. But ya those feats just scream monks and I wish they were more accessible to them, but 2 feats is a SUPER expensive cost on a monk... Even if they're both half feats...

Daphne

2020-04-15, 10:58 AM

I think they learned the wrong lesson when people got upset about the bonus spells for Ranger subclasses. That or because they're super resistant to fixing problems made earlier in the edition, they don't want people complaining when the refuse to give other Sorcerers bonus spells.

The extra spells for the Ranger were in the playtest versions, and both Swarmkeeper and Fey Wanderer also have them. So WotC is either ignoring any criticism and bit the bullet, or the reception was not so bad.

My main point is, maybe the problem is the amount of extra spells, and not their mere existence. They could try a Sorcerer subclass with just 1 more spell per spell level instead of 2 at least once to see the reception.

Segev

2020-04-15, 10:59 AM

That makes sense. While again, it might not be my first choice for the fantasy of psionics, I think it is a perfectly acceptable one, and if implemented in a satisfactory way, would be just fine. In that sense, I think that this UA is a good start. I certainly don't think the mechanics are good enough yet, what with weird things tied to dice rolls that don't feel like they should be, and certain things that seem really freaking powerful given out nearly at will with the only check on them seeming to be the fact that it is not impossible to run out. But if this is the fantasy they choose to embrace, the core mechanics are a solid starting point, and I would not complain if it gets an official release (so long as it is balanced).Yeah, while there's more to discuss in specifics, overall, I agree with you that this is a good first-pass, and that they could work from here to refinement rather than needing to try again with a whole new bathtub (let alone different bathwater).

Oh, and by the way, I love your use of dΨ. Perfect way to shorthand it.Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

I think they learned the wrong lesson when people got upset about the bonus spells for Ranger subclasses. That or because they're super resistant to fixing problems made earlier in the edition, they don't want people complaining when the refuse to give other Sorcerers bonus spells.Both of these seem likely. Like I said, how I'd hope to see it done is for there to be some book along similar lines to Xanathar's where more options are included, and they have the "optional rule" to buff all sorcerer subclasses with domain spells. Then they can release "optional domain spell lists" for any new ones that come out later with the subclass itself.

The trick here is that they can't give it to new ones and not old ones, and they don't want to do a full reprint of the PHB to include new lists. Making it an "optional rule" that is highly likely to be used by everybody who cares about the issue solves the problem: they can put it in its own book, and they can then include it by default (with a small line about it being "an optional rule") with new ones.

Edit: what's the actual benefit to only getting half of subtle spell? I know if your roll well you actually get subtle spell+, but under the assumption that it's not super likely to happen, you're unlikely to use the ability except in situations where you have access to the components and can move freely anyway. Is the Psionic Soul supposed to be a Stealth class?

If you need subtle spell more than you need the effect to go off - say, you're trying to charm person a king in the middle of court - having it fail rather than become obvious is a good thing. Especially if it doesn't cost you the spell slot (I'm unclear on that).

Also, for any that are Verbal-only, no Somatic or Material, you automatically get the benefit of Subtle!

MaxWilson

2020-04-15, 11:06 AM

Also unrelated: the rogue and fighter subclasses look awesome and the feats do too; the only thing that makes me dislike them is the vagaries of the Psi Dice mechanic. As others in this thread have noted, it's super unlikely you'll lose your dice at higher levels, but before level 5 it's a 1 in 24 chance (not much less likely than rolling a natural 1). Maybe they could replace Psi Replenishment with something like, "You can meditate uninterrupted for 1 minute to restore your psi die to a d6." That way, a couple bad rolling streaks doesn't arbitrarily screw over your adventuring day at low levels. (No scaling for non-psi classes because yikes, those feats already scale enough. Maybe the psi classes could get improved replenishment that scales with your psi die?)

Unlimited restorations would be too strong--it would basically be at-will Telekinesis for high-level Psi Knights, for example.

But a once-per-day bonus action restoration is still good. You have a 1 in 24 chance to lose your first psi die at low levels after only two uses, but then you get another d6 as a bonus action, and that second d6 will usually last you about 15 rolls. You have only a 1 in 576 chance to lose all of your dice in only four high rolls (6,4,6,4), but on average you'll get about thirty dice even at level 3.

The trick here is that they can't give it to new ones and not old ones, and they don't want to do a full reprint of the PHB to include new lists. Making it an "optional rule" that is highly likely to be used by everybody who cares about the issue solves the problem: they can put it in its own book, and they can then include it by default (with a small line about it being "an optional rule") with new ones.

Counterpoint: scattering rules for a single class across multiple books might annoy readers. Moon Druids and summoners seem to trip over this problem a lot, judging by forum posts anyway about how annoyed certain DMs and players get when you don't have stats pre-written-out.

Scarytincan

2020-04-15, 11:12 AM

Theoboldi

2020-04-15, 11:15 AM

After some retrospection, what's really bothering me right now about the Wild Talent feat is how bland it is. It's just a bonus to your numbers. A strong bonus to your numbers, but still. There's nothing that makes it feel particularly psionic in nature.

Aside from that, the more I think about it the less I like the Psionic Die. Literally every other class and ability lets the player decide when and how to use up their resources and when they want to conserve their energy. Yet the Psionic Die now makes those decisions for me, at least on anything connected to it. It's a kinda interesting way to simplify play, but it seems to me like it'll create strange situations during actual play ("Wait, why does my Sorcerer keep holding back the full extent of his powers? We are fighting our arch-nemesis who is about to ascend to godhood and who also killed his entire village!") and I'm not sure if simplified play is a goal that really overlaps with what many people want out of a psionic class in particular. It certainly doesn't for me.

Luccan

2020-04-15, 11:18 AM

I think mental exhaustion (as represented by the die) is a reasonable alternative to "perfect mind powers until I run out". Is it the same as 3.5 or a wizard? No. Does it make sense? Yes. Does it add some risk and excitement? Yes.

That assessment is pretty relative. Does it make sense? That depends entirely on your view of what Psionics should be. Does it add excitement? In the sense of not knowing if your powers will get weaker throughout the day, yes. That's not the same thing as enjoyable for some people.

MaxWilson

2020-04-15, 11:18 AM

carnomancy

2020-04-15, 11:34 AM

I'm not sure how a feel about the new die mechanic. It feels a little bit like 2E power scores with the punishment for rolling max. I've only got hearsay to go by since I wasn't into DnD when 2E was out, but I think that was an unpopular mechanic since it made you deal with double jeopardy (power score, saving throw), when utilizing your psionic powers. It also feels a little to much like its focused on rolling dice and misses the point of giving the classes interesting psionic powers.

There's just not enough meat here for me to really get into this playtest. I'd like to see some of the iconic psionic powers interact with the Psi die if we're going with that. Instead Mind Thrust is still a spell and the other four attack modes from telepathy seem to have been abandoned. There's still at least four more disciplines to consider as well, and while I do see some lip service to Psychometabolism in the feat and a Psi Knight feature (and a smattering on Clairsentience and Psychoportation in the Soulknife) there's just too little iconic psionic stuff going on in this playtest.

I feel like dropping the fear ability from the last Soulknife playtest (Terrifying Blade) was a mistake. That really made it feel like you were attacking your opponents psyche. Likewise I miss that the Fighter achetype can no longer do a long range telekinetic attack. The sorcerer subclass isn't too bad, but I don't understand why you need to roll to see if you don't have to use components. Just let the subclass drop components.

One last point that comes to mind is if the Mystic was abandoned due to stepping on other classes toes and their new solution is to pursue psionic subclasses for all the classes instead; then why do we have to abandon the disciplines from the Mystic. The problem seems to have been solved and they do a pretty good job filling out Telepathy and Psychometabolism. We'd need to scrub the Wu Jen scuzz off of what should be Psychokinesis and Psychoportation + Clairsentience would need some fleshing out; but the Mystic stuff did a way better job emulating the flavor of psionic powers from the past editions than the thin soup this UA provides us.

Theoboldi

2020-04-15, 11:34 AM

Would it help if you could opt to roll the maximum instead of rolling?

I suppose it would. But at that point I'm wondering if it's not getting too strong. You now have a resource you can nova with when you want, but which also has a chance to replenish itself by pure chance.

Aside from that, there still remains a very large random factor to it. In a setting where psychic powers are specifically described as being unstable and difficult to use, I can see that kind of making sense, but for a generic form of them it just feels not quite connected to the thematic.

MaxWilson

2020-04-15, 11:51 AM

I'm not sure how a feel about the new die mechanic. It feels a little bit like 2E power scores with the punishment for rolling max. I've only got hearsay to go by since I wasn't into DnD when 2E was out, but I think that was an unpopular mechanic since it made you deal with double jeopardy (power score, saving throw), when utilizing your psionic powers. It also feels a little to much like its focused on rolling dice and misses the point of giving the classes interesting psionic powers.

Yeah, I disliked power scores. It made more sense to give the special effect, if any, when you rolled a 1 instead of exactly your power score, because with a roll-under mechanic 1 = greatest degree of success possible and rolling exactly your target = just barely made it. Furthermore, 1 is simpler to keep track of.

But I have never liked critical hit/fumble special results in the first place.

Also AD&D ability checks and therefore psionic powers are too random to feel good. Now with hindsight and experience I recognize that it makes more sense to do them on a 3d6 instead of d20, which makes the modifiers for various powers more significant, which in turn makes modifiers more significant, so that hard things (-4) are significantly harder than regular things (-1) instead of being swamped by variation on the d20.

I suppose it would. But at that point I'm wondering if it's not getting too strong. You now have a resource you can nova with when you want, but which also has a chance to replenish itself by pure chance.

It's not that much of a nova honestly, and it burns you out even quicker than normal. I suspect it would almost always be a bad idea to opt for the maximum roll unless you knew somehow that it was going to be the difference between success and failure on a crucial Tower of Iron Will saving throw to avoid a crippling failure against e.g. paralyzation. If you're going to burn a die size you might as well get something real out of it, like Telekinesis or invisibility. I might be missing something but at first glance just opting for a maximum roll doesn't seem broken to me.

Dork_Forge

2020-04-15, 11:54 AM

Regarding the die mechanic, I actually kinda like it, and I find it funny that people are complaining that it's so much extra bookkeeping, when a very simple way to handle that is just grab an extra set of dice, maybe a nice purple, and just set the one that it's currently at in front of you to use, and swap it when it changes.

Not everyone plays with real dice (online gamers, especially during the current times) and not everyone has multiple sets, nor should they need them. Whether you think it is too much book keeping or not, it is MORE book keeping that isn't necessary and occurs during the time whent he person is preoccupied doing math or tracking whats happening in the combat. Besides that, how are you meant to track it between sessions in your scenario? It's not often I've played in a session that ended on a long rest and separating out dice sounds like a good way to lose said dice.

MaxWilson

2020-04-15, 12:00 PM

Not everyone plays with real dice (online gamers, especially during the current times) and not everyone has multiple sets, nor should they need them. Whether you think it is too much book keeping or not, it is MORE book keeping that isn't necessary and occurs during the time whent he person is preoccupied doing math or tracking whats happening in the combat. Besides that, how are you meant to track it between sessions in your scenario? It's not often I've played in a session that ended on a long rest and separating out dice sounds like a good way to lose said dice.

I see where you're coming from w/rt interrupting gameflow during combat***, but RE: between sessions: tracking resources between sessions is a pain anyway, especially if you use spell slots instead of spell points. Tracking two things ("what's my dΨ and have I used my refresh?") is comparable to the amount of paperwork the Champion has ("have I used Second Wind? have I used Action Surge? how many healing HD do I have left? what's my current HP?") and far less than a wizard's ("how many first, second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth level spells do I have left? have I used Arcane Recovery? how many Bladesongs do I have left? what's my current HP?").

*** Not that it would be the first time WotC introduced a fiddly mechanic that you when you want to be focusing on other things, such as during combat. Nothing about dΨ disrupts gameflow nearly as much as e.g. Xanathar's rules for spell identification.

Theoboldi

2020-04-15, 12:07 PM

It's not that much of a nova honestly, and it burns you out even quicker than normal. I suspect it would almost always be a bad idea to opt for the maximum roll unless you knew somehow that it was going to be the difference between success and failure on a crucial Tower of Iron Will saving throw to avoid a crippling failure against e.g. paralyzation. If you're going to burn a die size you might as well get something real out of it, like Telekinesis or invisibility. I might be missing something but at first glance just opting for a maximum roll doesn't seem broken to me.
Fair enough, I'm not familiar enough with the math to make a claim either way. So I'll trust your judgement there.

Dork_Forge

2020-04-15, 12:16 PM

I see where you're coming from w/rt interrupting gameflow during combat***, but RE: between sessions: tracking resources between sessions is a pain anyway, especially if you use spell slots instead of spell points. Tracking two things ("what's my dΨ and have I used my refresh?") is comparable to the amount of paperwork the Champion has ("have I used Second Wind? have I used Action Surge? how many healing HD do I have left? what's my current HP?") and far less than a wizard's ("how many first, second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth level spells do I have left? have I used Arcane Recovery? how many Bladesongs do I have left? what's my current HP?").

*** Not that it would be the first time WotC introduced a fiddly mechanic that you when you want to be focusing on other things, such as during combat. Nothing about dΨ disrupts gameflow nearly as much as e.g. Xanathar's rules for spell identification.

Tracking between sessions: The big pain is that it isn't a binary thing, you track everything else in whether you have it or not/how many you have left. Your Psy Die can change several times a session, at random and as you level and your default size grows you have more potential options to track (Was my die left off on a d8, d6 or a d4?). The other thing is that the Psy Die is added ON TOP of the accounting you already mentioned, the Psi Knight still has to track his binaries (SW/AS) but now also has to track his die size and whether or not he's used his refresh. The Sorcerer needs to track slots (or points if you use that variant) and their Sorcery Points, now they have a binary (refresh) AND the die size on top. This is easiest on the Rogue just because they didn't have any class dependent resources to begin with.

As for the Xanathar's rules, I don't think it's an apt comparison, those are variant rules in a splat (I think that's the term?) book for a niche thing (how often are you fighting casters and then how often do you care to identify the spell), but this is an archetype feature that if you want to play these subclasses WILL affect you. Variant rules can be as cluny as they like, it just means people are less likely to use them to begin with, this gives you no choice, you want psionics? Well here's your clunky die mechanic.

Pex

2020-04-15, 12:22 PM

I really like the soulknife as well, and personally I think people on this forum put way too much stock in magic weapons. They always seem to work under the assumptions that
a) You'll get a magic weapon
b) The magic weapon will be of a type that works for your build normally. Ie bow for an archer, polearm for a PM etc.
c) You wont get other magic items that are more valuable or useful than a magic weapon
That's a lot of assumptions to critique something on the basis of in my opinion.

The soulknife gets a magic weapon as part of the subclass that he
a) Can never lose or have confiscated temporarily
b) Can't have the damage traced back to him
c) deals on of the best damage types
d) works for his build
e) never requires attunement

Who cares if it doesnt stack with other magic weapons

It's not an unreasonable assumption you'll get a magic weapon you can use. They're a staple to the game as always. What's not guaranteed is any specific weapon, published or otherwise, or when in the campaign, but it's just as presumptuous to say a DM will never, ever give out magic weapons a PC can use.

MaxWilson

2020-04-15, 12:30 PM

Tracking between sessions: The big pain is that it isn't a binary thing, you track everything else in whether you have it or not/how many you have left. Your Psy Die can change several times a session, at random and as you level and your default size grows you have more potential options to track (Was my die left off on a d8, d6 or a d4?). The other thing is that the Psy Die is added ON TOP of the accounting you already mentioned, the Psi Knight still has to track his binaries (SW/AS) but now also has to track his die size and whether or not he's used his refresh. The Sorcerer needs to track slots (or points if you use that variant) and their Sorcery Points, now they have a binary (refresh) AND the die size on top. This is easiest on the Rogue just because they didn't have any class dependent resources to begin with.

As for the Xanathar's rules, I don't think it's an apt comparison, those are variant rules in a splat (I think that's the term?) book for a niche thing (how often are you fighting casters and then how often do you care to identify the spell), but this is an archetype feature that if you want to play these subclasses WILL affect you. Variant rules can be as cluny as they like, it just means people are less likely to use them to begin with, this gives you no choice, you want psionics? Well here's your clunky die mechanic.

I was just saying it's still a low amount of complexity--Champions have few enough resources that people often mistakenly talk about it as if it were resourceless. Wild Talent is less complex than Champion. Yes, Wild Talent + Champion, or Psi Knight, is more complex than Champion, but that wasn't the comparison I was making.

UA is even more heavily-optional than Xanathar's, and anyway the point wasn't about how many people are using the rules--it's about how disruptive they are. A table using Xanathar's rules has to pause every time any spell is cast to see if anyone in the combat wants to identify it with their reaction. A dΨ for a Psi Knight is just something you roll as a player when you inflict damage/take damage/jump, then make a note if the size changed. That's simpler than keeping track of how many 3rd level spell slots you have left compared to your 4th and 5th level slots. Changing as you level isn't a big deal--the rules are simple enough that I already have them memorized. It's d6 in Tier 1, d8 in Tier 2, d10 in Tier 3, d12 in Tier 4.

Psi Knight is simpler than the Eldritch Knight. Arguably comparable in complexity to Battlemaster since your die size can go up and down but you don't need to keep track of which maneuvers you know.

Fynzmirs

2020-04-15, 12:31 PM

If they were to keep this "dΨ" mechanic, an int-based Psion class could have the ability to choose the average value (rounded down) instead of rolling. Basically, through years of practice and discipline he would be the only one capable of actually controlling psionic power. Others would be able to dabble, but their talents would be untrained and unreliable.

HPisBS

2020-04-15, 12:34 PM

... I'm not sure if simplified play is a goal that really overlaps with what many people want out of a psionic class in particular. It certainly doesn't for me.

Relative to the UA Mystic? Absolutely. Each one getting multiple disciplines, with each discipline then providing multiple unique powers was way over-complicated -- way too much to sift through, compare, and plan out.

As I perceive it, the psionic talent die (hereafter abbreviated as "dΨ"), in all its size-changing glory, is meant to do two primary things:

It is meant to enable a mechanic that can be used multiple times in a day, but not indefinitely.
It is meant to keep how long you can use it as something you're always guessing, at least a little, on.
. . .

Now, going back to the two primary things, the points to consider and give feedback on are:

Are these two goals in line with what psionics even should be?
If not, why not?
This is where you would give feedback on why the idea of the dΨ, especially its randomness and "raw, uncontrolled" feel, don't mesh with what you think psionics should be, by explaining what you want psionics TO be and how this doesn't work for that.
Does the random nature of the die actually achieve point 2 very well?
Is there a better mechanic to achieve it?
If it doesn't achieve it, is it because it's too predictable or too unpredictable?
Does the random nature of it interfere too strongly with the ability to feel like you can use these powers "a lot?"
How much is "a lot?"
How many times should you be confident you can use it before it starts feeling like you're running low?
Does the way the randomness works into the various abilities make them too unreliable?
Is the fact that you can just try again next round, since it only diminishes in size if you score your maximum and thus only failed to be enough if you couldn't have succeeded anyway, mitigate this?

This isn't exhaustive, but we need to focus on what we can glean as the goals from this, and why we either support or disapprove of the goals themselves, and whether the dΨ actually supports them. And, if not, why not, and possible ways to improve on it. "Just make it like superiority dice" is a possibility, but you have to explain what your goals in doing so are. And, if you do that, do you want to consider Battle Masters being "psionic" in nature? Do you want the same mechanic for psi as for maneuvers without them being the same thing, any more than you want spell slots and psionic slots to be the same thing? Any less?

If we want to see psionics make it out of UA, we need to give WotC something more than "you screwed up. I hate it."

A) Yes and no, and probably not.
- The rest of the game makes a clear distinction between limited-use and at-will abilities. The same should apply here. They have a touch of that with only some abilities being guaranteed to downgrade the die, but it should be more distinct.

The "raw, uncontrolled" feel seems more appropriate to Sorcerers in general (especially Wild Sorcs). Psychics should feel more like the mentally disciplined jedi.

B+) The shifting die size is a neat unifying mechanic in principle. But this iteration tying everything to it in such an unreliable fashion runs counter to the above points, and should be tweaked. I'd rather see a hard, clear distinction between at-will and limited-use powers.
The limited-use would downgrade the die size as already written, whereas the at-will would just always use whatever size you still have left, bottoming out at a d4. No extra randomness needed.

- Alternatively, you could have a Bardic Inspiration -style pool of scaling Psi Dice. Stronger powers could always use a die out of the pool, but other powers could let you choose between the full-powered die, or defaulting to a lower die size, thus rendering them at-will.

The former idea obviously keeps more of this UA's flavor. But, either way, the die mechanic would still be unique, lack the un-flavorful randomness, lack the random chance to lose all of your psi powers for the day, and keep the feeling of slowly running low on strength, thus locking out your stronger powers for the day.

Theoboldi

2020-04-15, 12:43 PM

Relative to the UA Mystic? Absolutely. Each one getting multiple disciplines, with each discipline then providing multiple unique powers was way over-complicated -- way too much to sift through, compare, and plan out.

I was specifically talking about simplified play compared to the rest of the game, so please don't quote what I said out of context.

Whether the UA Mystic had too many options is another question entirely. Even I found it to be a very shaky prototype of a class. I will defend the basic ideas behind it forever, though, as it was in essence just a domain-based magic system of which I've seen many well made ones.

Dork_Forge

2020-04-15, 12:49 PM

I was just saying it's still a low amount of complexity--Champions have few enough resources that people often mistakenly talk about it as if it were resourceless. Wild Talent is less complex than Champion. Yes, Wild Talent + Champion, or Psi Knight, is more complex than Champion, but that wasn't the comparison I was making.

UA is even more heavily-optional than Xanathar's, and anyway the point wasn't about how many people are using the rules--it's about how disruptive they are. A table using Xanathar's rules has to pause every time any spell is cast to see if anyone in the combat wants to identify it with their reaction. A dΨ for a Psi Knight is just something you roll as a player when you inflict damage/take damage/jump, then make a note if the size changed. That's simpler than keeping track of how many 3rd level spell slots you have left compared to your 4th and 5th level slots. Changing as you level isn't a big deal--the rules are simple enough that I already have them memorized. It's d6 in Tier 1, d8 in Tier 2, d10 in Tier 3, d12 in Tier 4.

Psi Knight is simpler than the Eldritch Knight. Arguably comparable in complexity to Battlemaster since your die size can go up and down but you don't need to keep track of which maneuvers you know.

UA is, but if this mechanic passes through unaltered it will be the core mechanic of an official subclass, not a UA. I personally don't agree with the tracking slots thing, you can just tally your usage for slots and what you have available won't change until you rest or use more. This changes at random.

I'm not really sure how relevant it is that YOU can remember them, just like I'm not worried about my own being able to grasp and track the mechanic if it becomes official. But we aren't representative of most D&D players and our understanding of the game is above average at least. I already have players that struggle with casting mechanics, at least when they play an Eldritch Knight casting is mostly the same (You have slots, you have spells known, look at the table to see how many just like you did when you were a Cleric and a Paladin), this feature isn't just clunky, it's entirely unlike any other mechanic in 5e. It isn't intuitive with the system.

I also think you misunderstood my point about levelling, I didn't mean remembering the die sizes was an issue, I mean every time you hit a tier, your size will increase and add another size to track. In Tier 1 your dice is only going to be a d4 or d6, as soon as you hit 5th it can be a d4, d6 or a d8 and so on up the tiers. With spell slots this isn't an issue, it's a progression in what you were already tracking (this is my max, how many have I used), but this will randomly bounce between as many as five die sizes. Could I do that? Yeah, do I want to? No. Do I know that I'll have a lot of players that will struggle with that (not just in concept, but then as an ongoing tracking issue)? Yuuuup.

If this is the way things have to be then fine, I'll get used to it and help my players until they get used to it, but the whole point of UA is to shape how things will be and if things can be simpler and more 5e-ish then I'm going to vote for that everytime. Pex had a solid suggestion, just make it Bardic Inspiration but keyed off Int (or Wis I guess, my only psionics exposure has been the Mystic and the Gith).

Amechra

2020-04-15, 01:03 PM

Dork_Forge

2020-04-15, 01:06 PM

Honestly, I simply don't understand how people can look at "record a die size at the end of the session, plus whether or not you've used your refresh" and see that as overly complex. Just... write it down. It'll be fine.

Sure, it'll change over the course of the session, but so do things like the number of spell slots you have accessible, the number of ki points you've yet to spend, whether or not you have a Bardic Inspiration die...

Everything you've listed is a resource that you use or not, that refreshes on a rest. This bounces around randomly leaving you to track: what size am I currently on (if I have the die at all) and have I used my refresh?

Is this game breakingly complicated? No, but it could be more in line with the examples you gave, the fluff of it doesn't even make sense and gives the feeling of Wild Magic more than anything else.

Kane0

2020-04-15, 01:27 PM

-snip-

Great minds think alike!

Segev

2020-04-15, 01:30 PM

Counterpoint: scattering rules for a single class across multiple books might annoy readers. Moon Druids and summoners seem to trip over this problem a lot, judging by forum posts anyway about how annoyed certain DMs and players get when you don't have stats pre-written-out.

Yes and no. Technically - and I know I'm being "cute," here - the rules for Sorcerer are as self-contained as ever in the PHB. Since these are "optional rules." Where it would cause most difficulty is in AL or other campaigns with a "Core +1" rule, because it makes the "Domain Spells for Sorcs" book mandatory for the "+1," unless special-ruled. (Were I running AL, I'd either ban the domain spells rule even with the +1, or I'd include the domain spells for sorcs rules explicitly for all sorc subclasses, and the book would only be people's +1 if they wanted other things from it.)

As for at-will Ψ powers, you could do as was done with the psionic focus in 3e: "While your dΨ is available, you can [do the at-will power]."

ZRN

2020-04-15, 01:35 PM

Segev

2020-04-15, 01:38 PM

My biggest question about the die mechanic is one that’d take some actual play at a range of levels to figure out: how much does this actually feel like a fun and interesting variation in your character’s moment-to-moment resources, and how much does it just feel like “add a die to your damage rolls, but sometimes you roll crappy and lose your subclass benefits for the day”?

Part of the issue for me is that they’re trying to implement a cool crazy thing (psychic Jedi powers!!!) but the primary mechanical expression of that is just adding a slight, fairly consistent bonus to most of your rolls, but sometimes it stops working (because of pure bad luck you can’t plan around).

Most of the time when you're using actual psi powers, you're not adding the die to rolls; the die result gives you some numeric quantity that applies to what you're doing. Like how many feet your Jedi TK throws them, or something.

The issue with THAT is that the randomness of it makes it feel clumsy, wild, barely-controlled, and most people commenting on this so far seem to prefer the notion of the perfectly-controlled psionic master of the mind, rather than the wild talent barely restraining and guiding his burgeoning mental powers.

Man_Over_Game

2020-04-15, 01:43 PM

Can't say I'm surprised. I thought the Mystic was going to be dismantled in favor of subclasses, and that those subclasses to use one universal currency (to create the uniform idea that they're all connected with psionic powers), and I guess this confirms that plan (though I'm not a fan of the execution).

Although I thought they'd use something like Ki points, to fill in the Monk as a Psionic class, but I figured that would be a bit of a stretch.

I kinda hate the dice. Too much work to track. I'd much rather have it expend your die to "trance", or something, granting you benefits based on the roll you make each turn, fluctuating until it burns out or 1 minute expires. Kinda like a Short Rest Rage feature.

As of now, the concept has you "burnout" or "conserve energy" completely randomly, when I think it'd be a lot better to make those a choice. Randomly being able to "conserve energy" doesn't really give off a sense of "mastery". Don't get me wrong, it's not a terrible mechanic, but there's no sense of good/bad timing, it makes your next action feel uncertain (which is not what you'd depict of a Psionic), and it makes it annoying to track.

I would much rather see a randomly-fluctuating mechanic for something that feels Wild, like having a spirit forced inside of you, or some kind of Barbarian Rage. Something where your benefits/mechanics change for better AND worse with each fluctuation, with either side having penalties/benefits. You don't want your players to be screwed over randomly, you want them screwed over for adapting poorly to that randomness.

I'd wager a guess that they'd either scrap the dice entirely (and use a different universal currency), find a way to make it less random, or make it a "mode" feature that has a guaranteed burnout but makes you powerful until that happens (basically a Rage feature that's easier to track and is best used with proper timing).

Segev

2020-04-15, 01:50 PM

I still don't buy the notion that it's any harder to track than a power point pool, a ki point pool, or a number of rages.

MaxWilson

2020-04-15, 01:55 PM

Everything you've listed is a resource that you use or not, that refreshes on a rest. This bounces around randomly leaving you to track: what size am I currently on (if I have the die at all) and have I used my refresh?

You still haven't explained how keeping track of your current die size is more complicated than keeping track of how many Battlemaster maneuver dice (or first-level spell slots, or Fighting Spirits, etc.) you have. They're both quantities which change over time, and when they do you scratch one number off your character sheet/notecard/back of an envelope and write down the new one.

Will you argue that the Psi Knight's two dice are harder to keep track of than the Eldritch Knight's up-to-four buckets of spell slots and spells known and bonded weapons AND Eldritch Strike eligibility?

My biggest question about the die mechanic is one that’d take some actual play at a range of levels to figure out: how much does this actually feel like a fun and interesting variation in your character’s moment-to-moment resources, and how much does it just feel like “add a die to your damage rolls, but sometimes you roll crappy and lose your subclass benefits for the day”?

Part of the issue for me is that they’re trying to implement a cool crazy thing (psychic Jedi powers!!!) but the primary mechanical expression of that is just adding a slight, fairly consistent bonus to most of your rolls, but sometimes it stops working (because of pure bad luck you can’t plan around).

FWIW I think Psi Knight's damage resistance is powerful but boring (based on experience with Artificer protection turrets) and the Psi Knight damage bonus is moderately okay but boring. Telekinetic Strikes is cool (especially for GWMs) and not boring. Telekinetic half-cover is not boring, and hard to say how powerful it is.

Overall I suspect that a Defensive Duelist Battlemaster or EK will be stronger in actual play than a Psi Knight (EK is especially good if magical weapons of the proper type, e.g. halberds or hand crossbows, are not guaranteed by the DM), but Psi Knight has a cool enough name that people will enjoy it anyway. Note that there's no blue text: I'm serious that having "Knight" in the name matters, especially when you're trying to evoke the feelings players have towards a Jedi Knight.

Man_Over_Game

2020-04-15, 02:00 PM

I still don't buy the notion that it's any harder to track than a power point pool, a ki point pool, or a number of rages.

Those change linearly throughout the day. They move in one direction until they refresh at important checkpoints. This is important, since you can backtrack through the events of the day to estimate where they should be.

In this case, though, you have two different resources, one that fluctuates linearly (your refresh), but one that jumps around sporadically (your psionic die), with the latter of the two refreshing based on use of the first. Not only that, but you can't really tell if you already used your refresh that day or not, since you can't really backtrack your Psionic Die to guess if you already used your Refresh or not.

Mostly, though, it doesn't feel psionic. It feels like a mechanic you'd use for something you're fighting against. A curse, a spirit, an alter-ego, good/bad luck, etc. Not "I do this better because I'm better than you".

Superiority comes from never making a mistake, not always being lucky. I would much rather have had a mechanic where you gain Psionic Die when certain negative triggers happen (like dropping to 50% HP in combat as a Fighter), and then using that Psionic Die to fuel any other Psionic power, giving off the feeling that the weakness was intentional/the mind is clearer/you activated my trap card/etc.

What I'd expect out of a universal Psionic concept is "this is all part of the plan", not some RNG-based "am i smert now and/or later?" mechanic.

Dork_Forge

2020-04-15, 02:03 PM

You still haven't explained how keeping track of your current die size is more complicated than keeping track of how many Battlemaster maneuver dice (or first-level spell slots, or Fighting Spirits, etc.) you have. They're both quantities which change over time, and when they do you scratch one number off your character sheet/notecard/back of an envelope and write down the new one.

Will you argue that the Psi Knight's two dice are harder to keep track of than the Eldritch Knight's up-to-four buckets of spell slots?

With all of your examples it's as simple as have I used it? If yes subtract from total, if you're ever unsure of lose track you can think back to how many times you did the thing and adjust accordingly or ask the table how many times you did the thing. With this mechanic how many times you do the thing is irrelevent, it's all about the numbers you roll, something I think most people would be less inclined to remember and something the table would have a harder time helping you with since they may not even know what number you rolled to begin with. I don't understand how something that goes down as you use it during the day ISN'T easier to track than something that is entirely random., case in point what if you have a player that doesn't roll a 1 or (highest on die) for a few sessions? I think it'd be perfectly reasonable for that player to completely forget to adjust their die at all.

What two dice are you talking about? The different sizes? If that's the case then that's a heavily biased comparison...

Here's something though, what does this actually add to the game? How does this benefit players in comparison to just giving a more traditional pool like EVERYTHING else in the game uses?

Segev

2020-04-15, 02:07 PM

Those change linearly throughout the day. They move in one direction until they refresh at important checkpoints. This is important, since you can backtrack through the events of the day to estimate where they should be.

In this case, though, you have two different resources, one that fluctuates linearly (your refresh), but one that jumps around sporadically (your psionic die), with the latter of the two refreshing based on use of the first. Not only that, but you can't really tell if you already used your refresh that day or not, since you can't really backtrack your Psionic Die to guess if you already used your Refresh or not.

Mostly, though, it doesn't feel psionic. It feels like a mechanic you'd use for something you're fighting against. A curse, a spirit, an alter-ego, good/bad luck, etc. Not "I do this better because I'm better than you".

Superiority comes from never making a mistake, not always being lucky.

It's certainly no harder to track than hp, which do go up and down. It wouldn't be hard to just mark it on a piece of paper, or, if you want to be ritualistic about it, keep a particular set of dice as your dΨ, and only have one out of the box at a time (the one you're using right now). Or just remember it; it's one of two values at first. At most, it's one of six. This is not harder than tracking hp.

I will agree that it feels like raw, pulsating power that is barely controlled. If they use this for wild talents, I'll have little problem with it. If they have a cool idea for applying control to this "pulsating power" to make the true Master of the Mind type of character, I think it'll be pretty awesome.

MaxWilson

2020-04-15, 02:16 PM

With all of your examples it's as simple as have I used it? If yes subtract from total, if you're ever unsure of lose track you can think back to how many times you did the thing and adjust accordingly or ask the table how many times you did the thing. With this mechanic how many times you do the thing is irrelevent, it's all about the numbers you roll, something I think most people would be less inclined to remember and something the table would have a harder time helping you with since they may not even know what number you rolled to begin with. I don't understand how something that goes down as you use it during the day ISN'T easier to track than something that is entirely random., case in point what if you have a player that doesn't roll a 1 or (highest on die) for a few sessions? I think it'd be perfectly reasonable for that player to completely forget to adjust their die at all.

When you tie consequences to a roll, it becomes an event. I'm no more worried about people forgetting to change their die size when they roll a 1 or 8 than I am about someone playing with critical fumbles forgetting that their leg is broken when a crit fumble they rolled a while ago. In either case, yes, you can lose track, just like you can lose track of spell slots, but it's

What two dice are you talking about? The different sizes? If that's the case then that's a heavily biased comparison...

I'm talking about the main die and the replenished die. Once the main die goes away then you use the replenished die. It's two equivalent ways of thinking about the Psi Knight's two resources--use whichever is simpler. Either way there are two quantities to track.

Contrast with the Eldritch Knight who has even more quantities and individual data to track: up to 13 individual spells known, first level spells left, second level spells left, third level spells left, fourth level spells left, whether I hit anyone with a weapon attack last round and whom, which weapons I have currently bonded. That's somewhere between 6 and 19 extra things to track depending on how you count it.

Here's something though, what does this actually add to the game? How does this benefit players in comparison to just giving a more traditional pool like EVERYTHING else in the game uses?

Are you literally asking me what it adds to the game, or asking me to persuade you that it adds enough to the game to justify the novel mechanic? I assume the latter because the former already been ably explained on this thread by e.g. Segev. If you're asking the former I'm willing to explain it again but I'm not willing to try to persuade you of the latter, because that's just a matter of personal taste. It would be like trying to persuade you that wizards are better than druids--a pointless argument.

furby076

2020-04-15, 02:20 PM

Some first thoughts:

- no monk subclass? Really?!!??

Why would you expect to see a monk subclass? Monks and Psions are not related...at all. One perfects the body, the other perfects the mind. Polar opposites. The only thing they have in common is some lore -> Both can possibly have gotten training in Monasteries.

furby076

2020-04-15, 02:21 PM

I suppose it was obvious they were probably gonna drop Mystic, but I'll voice my own disappointment at not getting a dedicated psionic class. I also find it weird that their compromise on whether or not to give psionics its own system was to assign it a randomized mechanic. It's an odd solution given most opinions seemed to favor a consistent mechanic (albeit either a new one or one consistent with other mechanics). I don't think I care for psionic subclasses if they're not going to unite the theme with at least one full class option.

Come check out my thread. It's goal is for the community to refine the Mystic. It may not be AL legal, but doesn't mean we can't make it a class that we love to use it at the regular gaming table

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610482-Mystics-Gutted-by-Wizards-Let-s-fix-it-ourselves&p=24452718#post24452718

ZRN

2020-04-15, 02:32 PM

FWIW I think Psi Knight's damage resistance is powerful but boring (based on experience with Artificer protection turrets) and the Psi Knight damage bonus is moderately okay but boring. Telekinetic Strikes is cool (especially for GWMs) and not boring. Telekinetic half-cover is not boring, and hard to say how powerful it is.

I have an initial suspicion that it'd feel bad to have to weaken your boring-but-effective bonuses (protective field, etc) in order to power your powerful-and-fun abilities that automatically reduce your psi die (e.g. telekinetic movement). But again, I'd want to playtest for a bit before making that proclamation. Maybe it's a cool and fun tradeoff in play!

Lockwolfe

2020-04-15, 02:37 PM

I think the dice mechanic has potential somewhere, but perhaps not here. It’s too forced. Not every psionic ability should be randomized. I have to roll to see how many creatures I can communicate with telepathically? That doesn’t feel right at all. In all honesty, I don’t like this Soulknife very much. Rogues are already amazing at skill checks, the bonus is overkill, not to mention the narrative mess of rolling after you’ve already failed. Your soulknives only exist when making an attack. I don’t know why I can’t just have my knife. The d4 on your offhand is a strange nerf, it isn’t like Rogues can’t already dual wield short swords and 1 point of damage is a petty difference. I do like the 9th level abilities, but that’s about it.

furby076

2020-04-15, 02:40 PM

Feedback: Hey, this thing feels overtuned.

WOTC: We have listened to your feedback. The offending article has been burnt to a fine ash and scattered to the wind. As long as our sacred order stands the likes of it shall never see the light of day. We apologize for our hubris.

Pretty much. I'm trying to keep mystic alive, at least over here. Take a look if you are interested in tweaking
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610482-Mystics-Gutted-by-Wizards-Let-s-fix-it-ourselves&p=24452718#post24452718

Overreaction, much?

Mystic UA was around for years until now. It had its chance, but eventually was found unwanted by the majority (and these forums or its users do NOT represent the majority)

It didn't really have a chance. They abandoned it "years" in 2017 when they shelved it and decided to not bother. Frankly, if I buy whatever comes out that has this new incarnation, it won't be because of this new incarnation. I would have 100% spent money on material that had a Psion class.

There hasn’t been an option to submit feedback for years either. They haven’t even attempted a Psion class since. Really though, my comment was aimed at their hastiness to scrap things in general. I’m almost afraid to comment in feedback that an option is overpowered because they will either throw it out or publish a lackluster underpowered version. This is one of the few times they’ve revised something for play test material, but if people don’t like this iteration I wouldn’t be surprised if they just gave up.

That's the secret "PHB Ranger is OP"! And they scrap it

I feel like for the feats, both having ki points and especially gith races (seeing as, yunno, the ability is called GITHZERAI / GITHYANKI PSIONICS) should also be included as possible prerequisites. Would finally find monks a reason to seriously consider githzerai. But ya those feats just scream monks and I wish they were more accessible to them, but 2 feats is a SUPER expensive cost on a monk... Even if they're both half feats...

Although I thought they'd use something like Ki points, to fill in the Monk as a Psionic class, but I figured that would be a bit of a stretch.

Monk and Psions are NOT related. People gotta stop saying this. Just cause they POTENTIALLY can get training in monasteries does not make them similar enough. Monks = way of the body. Psions = way of the mind. Psions are closer to arcane/divine spellcasters as they innately harness the weave of magic, through their minds

MaxWilson

2020-04-15, 02:43 PM

I have an initial suspicion that it'd feel bad to have to weaken your boring-but-effective bonuses (protective field, etc) in order to power your powerful-and-fun abilities that automatically reduce your psi die (e.g. telekinetic movement). But again, I'd want to playtest for a bit before making that proclamation. Maybe it's a cool and fun tradeoff in play!

You might be right. I'm definitely sure of one thing too: playing a Psi Knight will make playing a Goliath feel bad. The only racial worthwhile racial ability they get is a d12+CON reaction to reduce damage, and then "Until you finish a short or long rest you can not use this trait again once you use this trait."

-Max

Scarytincan

2020-04-15, 02:51 PM

Joe the Rat

2020-04-15, 03:01 PM

Scarytincan

2020-04-15, 03:09 PM

I mean, just monk features alone: stillness of mind, diamond soul, purity of body

Man_Over_Game

2020-04-15, 03:11 PM

Millstone85

2020-04-15, 03:19 PM

Psions are closer to arcane/divine spellcasters as they innately harness the weave of magic, through their mindsPsionics can be a form of magic. Psionics can be a form of spellcasting. But if psionics relies on the Weave, then there is really nothing left of the concept.

Of course, this is exactly where 5e seems to be heading. Sorcerer or wizard, this edition's psion will be an arcane spellcaster.

I mean, just monk features alone: stillness of mind, diamond soul, purity of bodyAnd then there is Tongue of the Sun and Moon, which touches "the ki of other minds".

Dork_Forge

2020-04-15, 03:25 PM

When you tie consequences to a roll, it becomes an event. I'm no more worried about people forgetting to change their die size when they roll a 1 or 8 than I am about someone playing with critical fumbles forgetting that their leg is broken when a crit fumble they rolled a while ago. In either case, yes, you can lose track, just like you can lose track of spell slots, but it's

Just letting you know it looks like you cut off midsentence in case you didn't get to finish a point.

Rolling on a D20 is a lot more memorable and easy for both you and others to keep track of, a side dice you use every so often, not so much but that is very subjective.

I'm talking about the main die and the replenished die. Once the main die goes away then you use the replenished die. It's two equivalent ways of thinking about the Psi Knight's two resources--use whichever is simpler. Either way there are two quantities to track.

Contrast with the Eldritch Knight who has even more quantities and individual data to track: up to 13 individual spells known, first level spells left, second level spells left, third level spells left, fourth level spells left, whether I hit anyone with a weapon attack last round and whom, which weapons I have currently bonded. That's somewhere between 6 and 19 extra things to track depending on how you count it.

That's an interesting way to look at it, but you're again not accounting for it to be a state you're tracking (and out of control of) vs a resource, it isn't as straight forward as x resource minus y uses.

Are you genuinely putting bonded weapons as something to track? How often is a player swapping out weapons that they need to actually keep track of if they aren't using one of their TWO bonded weapons? Spells known isn't a resource for a learned caster, you may as well treat them as class abilities. Simlarly Eldritch Strike isn't a resource and doesn't really need to be 'tracked', you're really stretching the comparison.

Your comparison also pits a 19th level EK against a... what 3rd level PK? You're not accounting for dealing with the funky conversion the jumping creates (especially if on a grid, which may be a variant but... come on), on a similar note to your Eldritch Strike comparison, did you do damage to a creature with your Telekinetic Strike? Is the damage you're taking poison or psychic? Have you used your free use of Bulwark of Force?

It really isn't as comparitively straight forward as you are trying to make it seem.

Are you literally asking me what it adds to the game, or asking me to persuade you that it adds enough to the game to justify the novel mechanic? I assume the latter because the former already been ably explained on this thread by e.g. Segev. If you're asking the former I'm willing to explain it again but I'm not willing to try to persuade you of the latter, because that's just a matter of personal taste. It would be like trying to persuade you that wizards are better than druids--a pointless argument.

Honestly the first, I don't get how this benefits Psionics rather than just having fixed resources and how this benefits 5e as a system by breaking convention.

Daemere

2020-04-15, 03:38 PM

So let me get this right:
Soul knifes gets to attack a second time as a bonus action for 1d4 + mod?
Getting that mod added to the attack without any feats seems to help offset the lack of +X magic weapons.
Also, the Wild Talent feat seems pretty strong when paired here. 1d4 isn't much but since the talent lets you potentially reroll one damage dice per turn (definitely the d4) and your psi dice go up to d12, you can get some pretty impressive bonuses added to your attacks. Changing a max potential of 4 to a 12 is +8 damage right there.
1d6+5 & 1d12(1d4 rerolled w/ a d12@lvl 17)+5 per turn isn't that bad.

Also, I think the wording technically allows for the melee cantrips as well, though unintended.
Normally you can't attack with your offhand after doing a booming blade, since the standard DW rules require you to first do the attack action, while booming blade is a spell action that incorporates a melee attack.
These new psychic blades however don't follow the basic DW rules, as evidenced by the +mod on the bonus attack. The text simply states "after you attack with the blade", which is true when doing a booming blade. No mention of needing to do the Attack action.

Throne12

2020-04-15, 03:52 PM

Would it be to op to just give a psionic sorcerer the ability to cast spells with out M,V . You see in a lot of moves/comic/games/shows/ect of Psychics/espers/mystics/ pscion/ ect using hand, arm and finger gestures. Example putting 2 fingers to you temple to focus your mind or force choking or holding you hand and arm out toward a person the swiping them to the side mimicking your arm movements.

Pex

2020-04-15, 03:53 PM

It's certainly no harder to track than hp, which do go up and down. It wouldn't be hard to just mark it on a piece of paper, or, if you want to be ritualistic about it, keep a particular set of dice as your dΨ, and only have one out of the box at a time (the one you're using right now). Or just remember it; it's one of two values at first. At most, it's one of six. This is not harder than tracking hp.

I will agree that it feels like raw, pulsating power that is barely controlled. If they use this for wild talents, I'll have little problem with it. If they have a cool idea for applying control to this "pulsating power" to make the true Master of the Mind type of character, I think it'll be pretty awesome.

It'd be a simple matter of getting rid of the roll max/min to change the die size. The die size only downgrades when you use a specific power that causes it to downgrade after you use it. To upgrade a size, max normal size, you spend an Action to do it and/or you rolled a Natural 20 for something and/or purposely choose to have Disadvantage on a roll when you don't already have Advantage.

Kane0

2020-04-15, 04:02 PM

MaxWilson

2020-04-15, 04:02 PM

That's an interesting way to look at it, but you're again not accounting for it to be a state you're tracking (and out of control of) vs a resource, it isn't as straight forward as x resource minus y uses.

Are you genuinely putting bonded weapons as something to track? How often is a player swapping out weapons that they need to actually keep track of if they aren't using one of their TWO bonded weapons? Spells known isn't a resource for a learned caster, you may as well treat them as class abilities. Simlarly Eldritch Strike isn't a resource and doesn't really need to be 'tracked', you're really stretching the comparison.

Your comparison also pits a 19th level EK against a... what 3rd level PK? You're not accounting for dealing with the funky conversion the jumping creates (especially if on a grid, which may be a variant but... come on), on a similar note to your Eldritch Strike comparison, did you do damage to a creature with your Telekinetic Strike? Is the damage you're taking poison or psychic? Have you used your free use of Bulwark of Force?

Honestly the first, I don't get how this benefits Psionics rather than just having fixed resources and how this benefits 5e as a system by breaking convention.

You haven't justified why state tracking should be considered less complex than resource tracking, and you're counting rules like poison resistance as resources, which seems... perverse. You'd be justified if I had counted e.g. Arcane Charge as something which needs to be tracked, but of course I didn't. You may quibble with Weapon Bond but that's just your subjective opinion: it's still one more resource to be allocated. (Well, two actually.) You're right about the free Bulwark of Force, so that makes what, three extra things for a high-level Psi Knight to track, on top of the three things built into Fighter? EK is far more complex in resource terms. You have a separate objection to the complexity of how and when the resource changes, and that's okay--just as you don't think Weapon Bond is at all complicated, I don't think psi die rolling is conceptually complicated, although I'm open to the idea it might disrupt game flow.

What it adds: a non-infinite resource which players need not be reluctant to use but cannot be taken for granted. In game experience terms it adds meaningful suspense to every die roll.

We can discuss whether caring about die rolls instead of game world consequences is good or bad, but clearly WotC thinks it's good sometimes or they wouldn't have so many die-manipulation abilities like Savage Attacker and Great Weapon Fighting. At least psi dice make the die manipulation genuinely *meaningful* instead of just pointless rerolling.

I did say this a few pages ago, perhaps is relevant.

Then it becomes an infinite resource though.

Theoboldi

2020-04-15, 05:57 PM

MaxWilson

2020-04-15, 06:02 PM

I'd say it's less that tracking the Psionic Die is complex, but rather that it's cumbersome. It's just annoying to have to swap out the die you roll for one of your core features every three rounds or so. (Roughly, at least when it's a d6.)

Resources you can just cross off, and for everything else you can just keep the same dice that your abilities use ready. But the Psionic Die is something you gotta actively keep track of, like a constantly active condition. Not enough to be difficult in any great way, but still cumbersome.

Yeah, "cumbersome" is a good word. Especially for people who want to stay immersed in the game world and not have their minds on the physical table where die-rolling occurs. Those people will find psi dice really annoying. (I'm probably one of them.)

Segev

2020-04-15, 06:03 PM

I'd say it's less that tracking the Psionic Die is complex, but rather that it's cumbersome. It's just annoying to have to swap out the die you roll for one of your core features every three rounds or so. (Roughly, at least when it's a d6.)

Resources you can just cross off, and for everything else you can just keep the same dice that your abilities use ready. But the Psionic Die is something you gotta actively keep track of, like a constantly active condition. Not enough to be difficult in any great way, but still cumbersome.

If you keep all your dice out, you'll have the dice you need for it at any given point in time. Tracking it is as easy as tracking your hp or your spell slots: mark it on paper or what-have-you.

If you don't keep all your dice out, then yes, you can just swap it in and out as it changes.

It feels like people are making a way bigger deal out of this than it is in practice.

Dork_Forge

2020-04-15, 06:19 PM

You haven't justified why state tracking should be considered less complex than resource tracking, and you're counting rules like poison resistance as resources, which seems... perverse. You'd be justified if I had counted e.g. Arcane Charge as something which needs to be tracked, but of course I didn't. You may quibble with Weapon Bond but that's just your subjective opinion: it's still one more resource to be allocated. (Well, two actually.) You're right about the free Bulwark of Force, so that makes what, three extra things for a high-level Psi Knight to track, on top of the three things built into Fighter? EK is far more complex in resource terms. You have a separate objection to the complexity of how and when the resource changes, and that's okay--just as you don't think Weapon Bond is at all complicated, I don't think psi die rolling is conceptually complicated, although I'm open to the idea it might disrupt game flow.

What it adds: a non-infinite resource which players need not be reluctant to use but cannot be taken for granted. In game experience terms it adds meaningful suspense to every die roll.

We can discuss whether caring about die rolls instead of game world consequences is good or bad, but clearly WotC thinks it's good sometimes or they wouldn't have so many die-manipulation abilities like Savage Attacker and Great Weapon Fighting. At least psi dice make the die manipulation genuinely *meaningful* instead of just pointless rerolling.

I mentioned the resistances because you mentioned Eldritch Strike, both aren't resources, they're things that can come up in game because of your subclass features. You aren't justifying why 1) you need to track weapon bond at all 2) how it's complex on any level?

Again, I don't think that it's complicated necessarily, I think Theoboldi put it better, it's CUMBERSOME, you can't just use an ability and scratch it off, you need to constantly be aware of your die rolls and potentially changing up and down multiple times per game.

I think we otherwise just have too differing opinions on the matter, you're clearly okay with the idea of psy die and what it entails for psionics (unless I have misjudged your posts). I personally neither like it as a direction for psionics or a direction for the game, it certainly makes these subclasses different, I just hope there's still time for another UA before this book prints.

MaxWilson

2020-04-15, 06:19 PM

If you keep all your dice out, you'll have the dice you need for it at any given point in time. Tracking it is as easy as tracking your hp or your spell slots: mark it on paper or what-have-you.

If you don't keep all your dice out, then yes, you can just swap it in and out as it changes.

It feels like people are making a way bigger deal out of this than it is in practice.

It's not the complexity of remembering it between sessions and what-have-you, it's the extra mental step of checking it every time you do anything to see if it just grew or shrank when you might rather be focused on how to avoid getting turned into a newt. It's sort of like the difference between rolling your attack roll and your damage dice simultaneously vs. rolling them sequentially. Rolling sequentially is just more mental work.

I mentioned the resistances because you mentioned Eldritch Strike, both aren't resources, they're things that can come up in game because of your subclass features. You aren't justifying why 1) you need to track weapon bond at all 2) how it's complex on any level?

Again, I don't think that it's complicated necessarily, I think Theoboldi put it better, it's CUMBERSOME, you can't just use an ability and scratch it off, you need to constantly be aware of your die rolls and potentially changing up and down multiple times per game.

I think we otherwise just have too differing opinions on the matter, you're clearly okay with the idea of psy die and what it entails for psionics (unless I have misjudged your posts). I personally neither like it as a direction for psionics or a direction for the game, it certainly makes these subclasses different, I just hope there's still time for another UA before this book prints.

Eldritch Strike makes things more complex because you need to keep track of whether you hit with a weapon just in case you cast a spell next round.

Weapon Bond is two more limited resources to allocate.

Psychic/poison resistances are neither. There's extra nothing to track.

I agreed with Theoboldi that it's cumbersome (I've said as much directly to you, more than once), and if you're dropping the line about "it's complicated to remember between sessions/etc." then we can stop talking about the resource and resume talking about the game procedure, which yes, are definitely designed to make die-rolling a big deal, and that might be annoying.

Let me make the distinction between "cumbersome" and "too many resources" more clear: if the consequence of rolling a max Psi die were not a shrinking die but a loss of that many HP, Psi Knights would no longer have an extra resource that needed to be tracked because you're already tracking HP. But it would still be cumbersome because it's extra mental work every time you roll a Psi die, an extra procedure that you can't forget to do, when (if you're like me) you'd rather be focused on what is happpening in the game world instead of what is happening with physical dice at a physical table.

Segev

2020-04-15, 06:28 PM

I rarely see people roll damage dice along with attack dice. So maybe it’s just a play style difference.

MaxWilson

2020-04-15, 06:32 PM

I rarely see people roll damage dice along with attack dice. So maybe it’s just a play style difference.

Out of curiosity: I've noticed a correlation. People who are comfortable rolling damage dice along with attack dice tend to be more comfortable rolling multiple sets of attacks at once, including from summoned animals. I hypothesize that your table is therefore probably less likely than normal to tolerate large numbers of Necromancer skeletons and/or conjured animals.

If you brought a dozen skeletons along on an adventure, or twelve wolves, would the amount of die-rolling involved try anyone's patience? (Independent of game balance concerns.)

Kane0

2020-04-15, 06:33 PM

Then it becomes an infinite resource though.

Not so! Say we have a d6 Psi Die and a new Mastery of Fire discipline.

Combust: As an action, you ignite one creature or object you can see within 60 feet. The target takes XdΨ fire damage each turn for 1dΨ rounds they are alight with a Dex save to take half and avoid catching fire.
Gout of Flame: As an action, create a line 5 feet wide and dΨ x5 feet long which burns for up to one minute using your concentration. Creatures starting their turn within that area take XdΨ fire damage, Dex half. When you use this power your Psi Die is reduced one step.
Inferno: As an action, everything within 30 feet of you is covered in flame, taking XdΨ fire damage with a Dex save for half. After you use this power you lose your Psi die.

Then you can have recovery features like Resetting your Psi Die after a short/long rest, a number of times per long rest equal to your [Stat] mod or increase the size one step when you roll max on a Psi Die (to a max of your normal die size).

MaxWilson

2020-04-15, 06:46 PM

Not so! Say we have a d6 Psi Die and a new Mastery of Fire discipline.

Combust: As an action, you ignite one creature or object you can see within 60 feet. The target takes XdΨ fire damage each turn for 1dΨ rounds they are alight with a Dex save to take half and avoid catching fire.
Gout of Flame: As an action, create a line 5 feet wide and dΨ x5 feet long which burns for up to one minute using your concentration. Creatures starting their turn within that area take XdΨ fire damage, Dex half. When you use this power your Psi Die is reduced one step.
Inferno: As an action, everything within 30 feet of you is covered in flame, taking XdΨ fire damage with a Dex save for half. After you use this power you lose your Psi die.

Then you can have recovery features like Resetting your Psi Die after a short/long rest, a number of times per long rest equal to your [Stat] mod or increase the size one step when you roll max on a Psi Die (to a max of your normal die size).

But... Combust is infinite now, just like cantrips. If the (apparent) goal was to experiment with non-infinite resources that nevertheless are plentiful, this design doesn't do that.

Kane0

2020-04-15, 07:03 PM

MaxWilson

2020-04-15, 07:09 PM

I mean sure, if you never want to use your resource. Same goes for a caster never casting spells and only using cantrips.

Edit: But I see what you mean. Simple fix: all discipline powers reduce die size or use it up entirely, and maybe even require a certain die size or higher to use. Truly at-will can go back to Talents or whatever you want to call the cantrip equivalent.

Frankly I could stand to use cantrips move to a model with characteristics similar to this one. When people try to restrict cantrips to e.g. #level uses per day, it feels way too stingy, but literally unlimited Firebolts/Mold Earth/etc. have some uncomfortable gameworld implications. Having dozens to hundreds of cantrip uses per day feels about right.

So I like the math, but on the other hand, the actual procedure for rolling is too fiddly for me to want to use it for cantrips.

HPisBS

2020-04-15, 08:03 PM

I mean, just monk features alone: stillness of mind, diamond soul, purity of body

Empty Body. Astral Projection absolutely sounds psionic, and not at all about perfecting one's body. After all, it's temporarily leaving your body behind while your mind goes elsewhere.

Segev

2020-04-15, 08:17 PM

Out of curiosity: I've noticed a correlation. People who are comfortable rolling damage dice along with attack dice tend to be more comfortable rolling multiple sets of attacks at once, including from summoned animals. I hypothesize that your table is therefore probably less likely than normal to tolerate large numbers of Necromancer skeletons and/or conjured animals.

If you brought a dozen skeletons along on an adventure, or twelve wolves, would the amount of die-rolling involved try anyone's patience? (Independent of game balance concerns.)

Probably not, actually. Though we actually don’t mind rolling all attacks together for a group. It’s one reason we don’t roll damage with it. If we have a group attacking, we tend to want to know how many hit so we aren’t trying to guess which damage dice were the real hits.

It does vary from who’s running and what system, though. The GM tends to do most of the group rolling. We don’t mind large numbers of things, but that’s mainly because we expect combat to be slow, anyway.

Also, minion turns are often the fastest. Fewer choices and variables.

MaxWilson

2020-04-15, 08:52 PM

Probably not, actually. Though we actually don’t mind rolling all attacks together for a group. It’s one reason we don’t roll damage with it. If we have a group attacking, we tend to want to know how many hit so we aren’t trying to guess which damage dice were the real hits.

It does vary from who’s running and what system, though. The GM tends to do most of the group rolling. We don’t mind large numbers of things, but that’s mainly because we expect combat to be slow, anyway.

Also, minion turns are often the fastest. Fewer choices and variables.

Ah, got it. So you don't roll attacks one at a time, you just optimize them in a slightly different way. (The way you're doing it works very well for large numbers of attacks because as you say, that way you don't have to figure out which damage dice were "real".)

To make my example relevant to you, I should have said in post #200, "It's sort of like the difference between rolling [all of your attacks] simultaneously vs. rolling them sequentially. Rolling sequentially is just more mental work."

Segev

2020-04-15, 09:33 PM

Ah, got it. So you don't roll attacks one at a time, you just optimize them in a slightly different way. (The way you're doing it works very well for large numbers of attacks because as you say, that way you don't have to figure out which damage dice were "real".)

To make my example relevant to you, I should have said in post #200, "It's sort of like the difference between rolling [all of your attacks] simultaneously vs. rolling them sequentially. Rolling sequentially is just more mental work."

It can be, but it's not that much. ...in fact, the dwarven ranger does roll her attacks sequentially. I think the Barbarian player does, too. Though when she GMs, the Barbarian player definitely batch-rolls attacking squads' attack rolls.

I acknowledge that there's one more thing to do, but it just doesn't seem like that much more than any other tracked variable, to me, I guess. But if it's the straw that breaks the cognitive camel's back, I guess I can see why it'd be frustrating.

Pex

2020-04-15, 10:22 PM

Then it becomes an infinite resource though.

Point, but that might not be a bad thing. In my version the idea is to have a significant but not debilitating cost to restore a die size. If an ability is too powerful to be used every other turn, given my idea of spending an Action to get a die size back, then either don't provide that ability in the first place and publish something else or have it cost two downsizing and/or have it require a minimum die size so that it can't be used every turn for a player willing to use it again and again from d10 down to d4.

Justin Sane

2020-04-15, 11:31 PM

Arkhios

2020-04-16, 12:05 AM

A level 11 Psi Knight is down to a d6 for his Psionic Talent die, and uses Telekinetic Strike on a crit. I'm assuming the Psionic Talent die is doubled, as usual for a crit, correct? In that case, what happens if the roll is [6, 1]?

This would seem as an unforeseen case, but a reasonable ruling/tweak (IMHO) would be to first roll the die once, check if it changes the Die, and then multiply the result. Alternatively, roll two dice and the most favorable roll counts. It's a Critical roll, after all, so I wouldn't say it was entirely off. Critical hits are supposed to add joy to the game, not reduce it.

Segev

2020-04-16, 12:33 AM

Or you apply the six and the one in whatever order you choose, likely to wind up with it remaining the same size.

MaxWilson

2020-04-16, 12:37 AM

A level 11 Psi Knight is down to a d6 for his Psionic Talent die, and uses Telekinetic Strike on a crit. I'm assuming the Psionic Talent die is doubled, as usual for a crit, correct? In that case, what happens if the roll is [6, 1]?

Nothing special happens--the Telekinetic Strike is not included in the attack itself and is not included in the crit. You just add the 6 and lose a die size, and do not roll again.

Telekinetic Strike. You can propel your attacks with telekinetic force. Once on each of your turns, immediately after you deal damage to a target within 30 feet of you with a weapon attack, you can roll your Psionic Talent die and also deal force damage to the target equal to the number rolled

Arguably though it forces a second Concentration save.

Ovarwa

2020-04-16, 01:24 AM

Hi,

VHuman Sorlocks will like the fast short rests very much.

Anyway,

Ken

Waazraath

2020-04-16, 02:37 AM

Monk and Psions are NOT related. People gotta stop saying this. Just cause they POTENTIALLY can get training in monasteries does not make them similar enough. Monks = way of the body. Psions = way of the mind. Psions are closer to arcane/divine spellcasters as they innately harness the weave of magic, through their minds

Sorry, but simply not true. I didn't play the edition, but in 4th the power source of monks was 'psionic' (each class appearantly had a power source, like divine, arcane, martial, psionic etc.)

In 3.5, there was the psionic fist, and the zerth cenobite; no less than 2 prestige classes combining monk + psionic. Zeth cenobite following up on the Gitzerai lore from earlier editions, combining psionics + monks.

And in the fluff, it's also more or less the same for psions and monks: mastering the inner self through practice and meditation, and through that achieve feats beyond what is normally possible. You could argue that psionics is 'mind only' and monks are 'mind and body' (not just 'way of the body' as you describe, that's a false description, just go through the class features monks have in current and past editions) - but also several psionic core classes are explicitly 'mind and body': soulknife, psychic warrior, and even the psion's metabolatism specialization.

Arkhios

2020-04-16, 02:47 AM

Sorry, but simply not true. I didn't play the edition, but in 4th the power source of monks was 'psionic' (each class appearantly had a power source, like divine, arcane, martial, psionic etc.)

In 3.5, there was the psionic fist, and the zerth cenobite; no less than 2 prestige classes combining monk + psionic. Zeth cenobite following up on the Gitzerai lore from earlier editions, combining psionics + monks.

And in the fluff, it's also more or less the same for psions and monks: mastering the inner self through practice and meditation, and through that achieve feats beyond what is normally possible. You could argue that psionics is 'mind only' and monks are 'mind and body' (not just 'way of the body' as you describe, that's a false description, just go through the class features monks have in current and past editions) - but also several psionic core classes are explicitly 'mind and body': soulknife, psychic warrior, and even the psion's metabolatism specialization.

Follow-up on this, Monks didn't even have a Ki Pool until 5th edition came around. 3.5 monks just had their abilities. Period. No pool of any points to spend. I don't know if it had in previous editions either, but in 4e edition when they shared the Psionic Power Source, they took their first steps towards having their own ki points.

FWIW, Pathfinder is NOT D&D, period.

bendking

2020-04-16, 03:08 AM

Perhaps a good house-rule for the Psionic Sorcerer would be to take the average roll rounded down instead of rolling that dice. You would get +3, then +4, then +5, etc.
Yeah, you get rid of the whole risk of losing your power and stuff but that wouldn't happen very often anyway.

EDIT: I realized this would pretty much mean having Subtle Spell permanently on, but perhaps it wouldn't be that bad.
I mean, the Psionic Sorcerer isn't so powerful that I would worry about that too much, but it is definitely a powerful perk to have 1 SP cost Metamagic be free.
Then again, Draconic Sorcerers get a better Empower for free on their chosen element, which with Elemental Adept is pretty much just a better empower forever.

P.S. By the way, does anyone know if Psychic Strike works on AoE's?
P.S.S. Am I the only one who thinks the Telekinetic feature is wack? The bonus action shove/pull is crazy useful, especially for classes that lack many bonus actions (i.e. Fighter/Sorcerer).

Dork_Forge

2020-04-16, 03:09 AM

Arkhios

2020-04-16, 03:20 AM

Unless the final version includes Ki points then in 5e they're not really related at all, the fluff on the magic of Ki is very present in the PHB and we've seen no mention of it at any point in:Psionic monsters, player Gith race, the Mystic, or any version of the psionic subclasses.

The fluff included in the UA actually goes against this, Kis is defined as the magic that suffuses the multiverse, specifically the body. The newest UA says that Psi "arises from the mind."

They may have been related in past editions, but that doesn't really mean they are related now.

A cousin is a more distant relative than a parent, sibling, or a child. The closest relative that could be exactly like another is a Twin, and even a twin is not a perfect clone.

Ki and Psi are related just like that. They share similarities but they're not twins. That doesn't mean they are NOT related to each other, even if it's not mentioned anywhere.

This is asinine way of thinking. "If X is not said anywhere, it absolutely can't be X." Not everything needs to be said so they can be a thing.

There are other similar unwritten rules that so far align with each other, EVEN THOUGH it's not written anywhere.

For example Saving Throw Proficiencies for classes. All classes have one thing in common: each have one of the three saves (Dex, Con, or Wis) and one of the other three saves (Str, Int, Cha). This isn't pointed out anywhere as a rule that must be, but still it exists. Not a single class gives you extra saving throw proficiencies BY DEFAULT. Some Subclasses do, but that's an entirely different thing.

Waazraath

2020-04-16, 03:28 AM

Reynaerde

2020-04-16, 04:57 AM

That Wild Talent feat is great for characters using low damage die weapons, especially at higher levels. Will be fun to roll a d10 to replace the damage of my whip with!

Segev

2020-04-16, 06:52 AM

MrStabby

2020-04-16, 07:11 AM

The new feats are pretty interesting - I can see Wild Talent becoming a popular option, since you can use it with any ability score. Wild Talent → Metabolic Control seems to be tailor-made for Monks, too.

Yeah - monks and warlocks will love this. I think warlocks more so simply because they can spare the feats more easily, although being a half-feat does help quite a bit. At higher levels being able to up those hex d6 might prove to be pretty powerful.

I don't like this. :smallfrown:

Why? Because psionic power comes from within?

Psionics is the power of the mind. Not everybody has a dragon in their family, but everyone has a mind. Of the various origins suggested in the document, being "trained by a githzerai monk to unlock the psionic potential within yourself" is the least sorcerous, and the most in line with what a psion is supposed to be.

5e could use a third Int-based class, and the mystic/psion was a great candidate for the job.

So I think that the sorcerer is a good fit for the "internal power" of a psion. I don't see why they couldn't just change the casting stat and saves at level 1 as part of the subclass. It wouldn't be a change as you would start with it.

There's no limit to the number of times per turn a Psi Knight can use Psi-Powered Leap? So you could potentially make 15 1-foot "long jumps" augmented 15 times. Adding something like 15(2d10+10)= 315 extra feet to their movement for the turn, basically for free. Double that if you're dashing. Triple it if you can dash as a bonus action. Sextuple that if you're a Tabaxi or Simic. That... probably needs to be looked at.

Otherwise, this is good stuff. I like the Psionic Talent concept. All three subclasses are pretty tight.

I've been pretty critical of how they've handled the Soulknife in the past on account of its one of my favorite concepts and it's never lived up to my hopes. I like this one: I like that it's been made independent from intelligence, so he's free to be a dex/cha infiltrator type, which is what the "no weapons" concept plays into the best. I'm a bit annoyed that the off-hand strike downgrades to a d4. The difference between a d6 and a d4 is so minor it barely seems worth the effort to reach for a different die. That's a pretty minor quibble though.

For example, as a Soulknife, could I take Wild Talent, use Psi-Boosted Ability to boost a skill check, then use Psi-Bolstered Knack to boost it again? As written, yes you can, but it doesn't seem like this is intended. Imagine trying to grapple someone who can reliably add 2d6 to their athletics checks. And this is on a class that already has expertise and reliable talent.

Something else that's also odd to me: the Psionic Talent Die you get from Wild Talent increases in size based on your character level, not the level in any given class, because it's a feat. But if you get the die from your class it goes up only on class levels. It seems odd to me that a character that has 10 levels in Soulknife and 10 levels in Psi Knight would have a smaller Talent Die than someone with 3 levels in Soulknife and a Feat.

Ok, that speed thing seems excessive... worth fixing. Likewise on the soulknife skill thing. Soulknife does look like a combination of really interesting and annoying. Not sure where I stand on it.

Interesting, Psionic Veil fades after you deal damage to a creature or force a creature to make a saving throw, not when you attack or cast a spell.

That means if you make your initial attack and miss, you're still invisible, and you're still unseen for your bonus action attack likely to follow. If you cast a spell that neither deals damage nor forces a creature to make a save, you remain invisible.

I find Rend Mind really disappointing. 1/turn Stunning Strike... at level 17? When most other Rogue subclasses are getting stuff like taking two turns on round 1, getting big boosts to damage or stealing spells? If I wanted Stunning Strike I would just MC monk, at least then I'd get to make a bunch of extra attacks and stuff too.

Interesting note, the way the Psychic Blades feature is written, you could use the blades for your Martial Arts/Flurry of Blows attacks. They also qualify as monk weapons. Deliberate synergy I expect, which makes Rend Mind extra insulting: if they want us to MC monk instead of progressing Soulknife further they could just say so.

Interesting point on psionic veil - so works with spells like Maze that use ability checks? Ok, ok so you can't get that on this class with 13 levels... Wondering if there are spells that don't force a save - with a phrase like "the target may use an action to make a save" (Is Otto's dance like this?). I am guessing this will be tightened up.

Oh, and by the way, I love your use of dΨ. Perfect way to shorthand it.

Personally I hate it. Too many bad memories of wave functions. Even just changing the order would make it so much better!

Not everyone plays with real dice (online gamers, especially during the current times) and not everyone has multiple sets, nor should they need them. Whether you think it is too much book keeping or not, it is MORE book keeping that isn't necessary and occurs during the time whent he person is preoccupied doing math or tracking whats happening in the combat. Besides that, how are you meant to track it between sessions in your scenario? It's not often I've played in a session that ended on a long rest and separating out dice sounds like a good way to lose said dice.

Not necessary is not the same as not beneficial. The bookkeeping associated with the battlemaster is not necessary as you could just use a champion instead; it doesn't mean that the option to play a battlemaster doesn't add something to the game. Instead of asking "could we do without the complexity" I think it better to ask "is the complexity worth it". In this case there is a tiny amount of complexity for a core thematic boost in ability. In my eyes it is worth it.

I still don't buy the notion that it's any harder to track than a power point pool, a ki point pool, or a number of rages.

We have so many classes with so many more resources to track:

Look at something like a level 10 divination wizard:

Number of spells of level 1
Number of spells of level 2
Number of spells of level 3
Number of spells of level 4
Number of spells of level 5
Number of portent dice remaining and their values
Number of arcane recovery left (which in turn has an impact on the other resources)
Hit Points
Hit dice
For each spell in their spellbook is it prepared today
For each wizard spell, is it in their book - for ritual purposes

Or druids that have to track which creatures they have seen?

Or paladin that not only have loads of resources but quite different ones as well:
Spell slots left
CD uses left
Detect Evil/Good left
Lay on Hands Left
Cleansing tough uses left

So I agree with you that a single resource which can probably take up to 5 different values is pretty easy to track. The fact it can move up and down doesn't seem to be an issue. We are accustomed to things like hit points going up and down over the course of an adventuring day - this seems no harder.

P.S.S. Am I the only one who thinks the Telekinetic feature is wack? The bonus action shove/pull is crazy useful, especially for classes that lack many bonus actions (i.e. Fighter/Sorcerer).

This was one of the things I wanted to talk about - and surprised it took 8 pages for someone to mention it.

I see a lot of feats as being about granting bonus action uses: PAM, GWM, CE, Shield Master. This feat does the same, as a half feat and with a pretty potent ability as well. It isn't quite a bonus action disengage, but is more flexible; you can disengage an ally. I can see it being nice on a cleric or a druid who get area of effect spells that they might like to push/pull people through - not even something that you would need to build around as they are good spells anyway. If you are going to be stood there with Spirit Guardians up and dodging - why not use your bonus action to pull one more person into your aura of death?

The range on this is 30ft. There are going to be a number of circumstances where upon starting an encounter you can push a melee enemy out of their movement range of friendly characters - essentially wasting their turn. Not bad for a bonus action. Or move your friend away for the same effect.

Lobbing a fireball down the hall? you can move a friend out the way first - this isn't a spell so no conflict with casting a non cantrip spell.

Oh yeah, and you get the mage hand cantrip as well. Bonus.

So all in all I was set up to hate this. Abandoning the mystic I still think is a mistake and I don't think these options are a good substitute but that doesn't make them bad at being what they are. They look fun, about the right power level and different enough from existing subclasses that they have their own role. I wouldn't mind seeing these go forwards (although last time I thought that it was the Kensei, and then they disabled all the stuff I thought was cool about it, so being cautious here).

The feats are probably the biggest thing here for me though. I talked about the telekinesis feat, so wont repeat that but the others are pretty solid as well.

Tower of iron will - how many times per day do you need to help your team pass their saves to make this worthwhile? Sure the paladin aura is probably better - but at a 30ft radius it is not far off.

So all in all, and I might regret saying this, but these features might be enough to make me want to play a fighter. You could be a pretty good battlefield controller with a bow, psionic thrust and telekinesis. You would have a pretty good shot at deciding who gets close to the party and who doesn't.

Or a variant human warlock that can pick up wild talent at 1st level (to get that +2 to charisma), repelling blast at 2, telekinesis at 4 and metabolic control at 8. There is some potential for some really fun stuff, but it looks pretty powerful as well.

Waazraath

2020-04-16, 07:30 AM

The fact that it took prestige classes to link psionics and monks should tell you something about how natively connected they are. Just as well as fighters and wizards, say.

They can be linked. But they needn’t be. Right now, they aren’t. Nothing stopping you from taking wild talent on a monk, though.

Are you acting deliberately obtuse now? The argument has been made monks and psionics have been intwined in loads of ways in fluff and crunch in the past: githzerai, 4e power source, 3.5 prestige classes, Kalashter. Focussing on only 1 of those (prestige classes), ignoring that there really aren't that many psionic prestige classes to begin with...

I mean, you don't have to like the connection between monks and psionics, and fine if you want it diferently in 5e. It's no biggy. But why making blatantly false statements ('just as connected as fighters and wizards') about it?

diplomancer

2020-04-16, 07:31 AM

Just noticed another powerful thing about the wild talent feat. The damage option replaces ONE die. Which means it's specially good for weapons that do 2d8 (shadow blade), 2d6, 2d4 (double-bladed scimitar)damage, or attack roll cantrips.

The more dice you roll, the greater the chance of rolling poorly one particular die, which you replace. At least THIS one they limited to once per turn (and this is almost a ribbon to the feat, a very good one nonetheless).

Yes, this feat might be the most powerful feat in the game (admittedly hard to measure when it boosts so many different things, some of them not very quantifiable... of course there are better feats for DPR, that's not what I'm claiming here).

Joe the Rat

2020-04-16, 07:54 AM

Yeah - monks and warlocks will love this. I think warlocks more so simply because they can spare the feats more easily, although being a half-feat does help quite a bit. At higher levels being able to up those hex d6 might prove to be pretty powerful.Warlocks at least. Monks still require 30 minutes of meditation to recover ki.

Which means no catnap either.

Reynaerde

2020-04-16, 08:34 AM

Warlocks at least.Even the Wild Talent feat alone is already pretty good for warlocks. A bonus to charisma + a nice bonus to useful skills + psi-guided strike works on eldritch blast (and for hexblades on their regular attack).

Segev

2020-04-16, 08:48 AM

Yeah - monks and warlocks will love this. I think warlocks more so simply because they can spare the feats more easily, although being a half-feat does help quite a bit. At higher levels being able to up those hex d6 might prove to be pretty powerful.I'd go so far as to say it risks making Warlocks overpowered, except that, in my experience, short rests are pretty common anyway, as often as once every combat. Not always, but often.

Admittedly, I've gotten my players into relatively few dungeons. When they hit the Fane or the Tomb...well, I just hope they're ready for PC deaths. I don't plan to deliberately kill them, but the difficulty looks like it's going to SPIKE compared to their play style, and I'm bracing myself not to pull punches.

I have been contemplating - not as something to include in my game to solve probems, but just as a possible mechanic - potions of Short Rest. I'd call them something different if I developed them more, but a one-shot that lets a PC have a short rest as an action, or maybe in one minute (to prevent mid-combat short-resting), could be potentially interesting as a reward.

So I think that the sorcerer is a good fit for the "internal power" of a psion. I don't see why they couldn't just change the casting stat and saves at level 1 as part of the subclass. It wouldn't be a change as you would start with it.While I agree that they COULD have changed the stat, I am actually a little glad they didn't, at least with the dΨ mechanic. As others have noted and I've agreed with, it feels awfully random and uncontrolled for an int-based mind-master. More like wild talent and like something that would work coupled to the Wild Magic Sorcerer (which makes me sad that, as a subclass, they can't modify Wild Sorcerer to have a dΨ-type mechanic easily).

It's my hope that, if they make a "Psion" class - or subclass, but I'm hoping class - there're class features that make the Psion able to manipulate and control the dΨ. What I think would be brilliant about that approach would be that it acknowledges the flavor they've introduced about psionics being raw, pulsating, and hard to control, and then made the mental master able to control it, rather than just having a different mechanic that's smoother to use (or, worse, not giving them a means of acting like the Mind Master who is in control of his raw power).

Ok, that speed thing seems excessive... worth fixing.When I read it, I assumed - incorrectly - that it was 1/round. Limiting it to that would probably work out fine.

Personally I hate it. Too many bad memories of wave functions. Even just changing the order would make it so much better!"Ψd" or "Ψ-die" would work, but I like "dΨ" because it uses dice notation, and if adopted, could allow us to make statements like, "You roll 1dΨ and add it to..." or "Psions get to roll 3dΨk1" or the like. "dΨ" thus becomes shorthand for whatever your psi-die's size happens to be.

Also, at least I'm just doing partial differentiation, and not asking you to take the Hamiltonian of your mind. ;)

Not necessary is not the same as not beneficial. The bookkeeping associated with the battlemaster is not necessary as you could just use a champion instead; it doesn't mean that the option to play a battlemaster doesn't add something to the game. Instead of asking "could we do without the complexity" I think it better to ask "is the complexity worth it". In this case there is a tiny amount of complexity for a core thematic boost in ability. In my eyes it is worth it.

We have so many classes with so many more resources to track:

Look at something like a level 10 divination wizard:

Number of spells of level 1
Number of spells of level 2
Number of spells of level 3
Number of spells of level 4
Number of spells of level 5
Number of portent dice remaining and their values
Number of arcane recovery left (which in turn has an impact on the other resources)
Hit Points
Hit dice
For each spell in their spellbook is it prepared today
For each wizard spell, is it in their book - for ritual purposes

Or druids that have to track which creatures they have seen?

Or paladin that not only have loads of resources but quite different ones as well:
Spell slots left
CD uses left
Detect Evil/Good left
Lay on Hands Left
Cleansing tough uses left

So I agree with you that a single resource which can probably take up to 5 different values is pretty easy to track. The fact it can move up and down doesn't seem to be an issue. We are accustomed to things like hit points going up and down over the course of an adventuring day - this seems no harder.Agreed, and thank you for the more detailed analysis than I've seen anybody else give the issue.

This was one of the things I wanted to talk about - and surprised it took 8 pages for someone to mention it.

I see a lot of feats as being about granting bonus action uses: PAM, GWM, CE, Shield Master. This feat does the same, as a half feat and with a pretty potent ability as well. It isn't quite a bonus action disengage, but is more flexible; you can disengage an ally. I can see it being nice on a cleric or a druid who get area of effect spells that they might like to push/pull people through - not even something that you would need to build around as they are good spells anyway. If you are going to be stood there with Spirit Guardians up and dodging - why not use your bonus action to pull one more person into your aura of death?

The range on this is 30ft. There are going to be a number of circumstances where upon starting an encounter you can push a melee enemy out of their movement range of friendly characters - essentially wasting their turn. Not bad for a bonus action. Or move your friend away for the same effect.

Lobbing a fireball down the hall? you can move a friend out the way first - this isn't a spell so no conflict with casting a non cantrip spell.

Oh yeah, and you get the mage hand cantrip as well. Bonus.All interesting points, and point to this maybe being overpowreed for a half-feat.

Frankly, I would like to see gust redone with even just the push/pull power here. Even if it took an action. Better if it's a bonus action cantrip with that. (I am perpetually annoyed at how bad gust is; it makes the 4-element set of cantrips feel lopsided and damages the fun of potentially taking all four for theme.)

Are you acting deliberately obtuse now? The argument has been made monks and psionics have been intwined in loads of ways in fluff and crunch in the past: githzerai, 4e power source, 3.5 prestige classes, Kalashter. Focussing on only 1 of those (prestige classes), ignoring that there really aren't that many psionic prestige classes to begin with...

I mean, you don't have to like the connection between monks and psionics, and fine if you want it diferently in 5e. It's no biggy. But why making blatantly false statements ('just as connected as fighters and wizards') about it?No, but I was on my phone, so responded to the one that seemed most pertinent to me.

Githzerai connecting psionics and monks doesn't persuade me that monks are inherently connected to psi any more than Githyanki connecting fighters and mages. Or, for that matter, elves doing the same since way back in oD&D. On the 4e power source, it was one edition, and an edition that is...less than popular. I won't go so far as to say that the monk being psionic is related to 4e being unpopular; heck, maybe it being psionic saved the monk from being yet another martial adept (but I doubt it); I've heard positive reviews of 4e psionics, which at least suggests to me that it might have been the one unique subsystem in the entire edition. I don't know for sure; I was well done with 4e by the time psionics came out and had no interest in investigating 4e again for just that.

So, of your examples, you have prestige classes and a race, which I can point to similar ideas over for fighters and mages, and probably could do similarly for other class combinations if I wanted, and you have 4e giving monks a psionic power source. To which I simply say, 5e didn't. Monks in 5e are not psionic, and they're definitely not going to MAKE them psionic by default as that would be a change to the core book. They likely will add a subclass for psychic monks, especially if they do a full psionics supplement.

I'm not opposed to monks having psionics. I am, however, finding the insistence that they have this deep connection to it to be suspect. There are thematic ways to connect them, but it isn't something inherent to the class, historically or in most settings. 4e is the only time it was baked in, and 5e has already rejected that as precedent-setting.

Edit: Forgot to comment on Kalashtar. From what I know of Eberron, they're psionic. I haven't actually heard them mentioned as "monk-like" very much; their whole thing is being opposed to the Quori and their possessed Vessels. They might have a monastic tradition, but that isn't a strong association in terms of what they seem presented as, racially. The big thing is the dual-soul business and that making them psionic.

bendking

2020-04-16, 09:04 AM

I'd go so far as to say it risks making Warlocks overpowered, except that, in my experience, short rests are pretty common anyway, as often as once every combat. Not always, but often.

Frankly if I were running a game right now I would house-rule that single-class Warlocks get a 1-minute short rest for free.
Single-class Warlocks are really behind other classes IMO.

Segev

2020-04-16, 09:10 AM

Frankly if I were running a game right now I would house-rule that single-class Warlocks get a 1-minute short rest for free.
Single-class Warlocks are really behind other classes IMO.

That has not been my experience in the game I'm running, but the party also only hit level 6 at the end of last session, so if it's a mid-late game problem, we haven't gotten there yet.

MrStabby

2020-04-16, 09:17 AM

I'd go so far as to say it risks making Warlocks overpowered, except that, in my experience, short rests are pretty common anyway, as often as once every combat. Not always, but often.

Yeah, I think it puts them on the strong side. It is a pretty big buff.

Admittedly, I've gotten my players into relatively few dungeons. When they hit the Fane or the Tomb...well, I just hope they're ready for PC deaths. I don't plan to deliberately kill them, but the difficulty looks like it's going to SPIKE compared to their play style, and I'm bracing myself not to pull punches.

I have been contemplating - not as something to include in my game to solve probems, but just as a possible mechanic - potions of Short Rest. I'd call them something different if I developed them more, but a one-shot that lets a PC have a short rest as an action, or maybe in one minute (to prevent mid-combat short-resting), could be potentially interesting as a reward.

I have given similar - they kind of both work and don't work. My players hoarded them till some really big, long days and kind of trivialised the endurance element of it where I had hoped other classes would shine. I would do it again... but only in a really arduous campaign.

While I agree that they COULD have changed the stat, I am actually a little glad they didn't, at least with the dΨ mechanic. As others have noted and I've agreed with, it feels awfully random and uncontrolled for an int-based mind-master. More like wild talent and like something that would work coupled to the Wild Magic Sorcerer (which makes me sad that, as a subclass, they can't modify Wild Sorcerer to have a dΨ-type mechanic easily).

I don't think that this need be randomness on the caster's part - or at least not in any final version. The Psion lets out a tightly controlled amount of energy, but the impact on the target is dependant on the target's state of mind and their defences. Some things this will work for, others less so. Things like learning divination/enchantment spells can be down to reading minds of creatures that know them... and losing them can be analogous to being shut out. It isn't a random fluctuation in the caster but rather the randomness coming from the receiver. I agree the fluff doesn't match as it is, but I think much of it can be rewritten to match both the mechanics AND a tightly controlled Int caster.

It's my hope that, if they make a "Psion" class - or subclass, but I'm hoping class - there're class features that make the Psion able to manipulate and control the dΨ. What I think would be brilliant about that approach would be that it acknowledges the flavor they've introduced about psionics being raw, pulsating, and hard to control, and then made the mental master able to control it, rather than just having a different mechanic that's smoother to use (or, worse, not giving them a means of acting like the Mind Master who is in control of his raw power).

That would work for me as well.

"Ψd" or "Ψ-die" would work, but I like "dΨ" because it uses dice notation, and if adopted, could allow us to make statements like, "You roll 1dΨ and add it to..." or "Psions get to roll 3dΨk1" or the like. "dΨ" thus becomes shorthand for whatever your psi-die's size happens to be.

Also, at least I'm just doing partial differentiation, and not asking you to take the Hamiltonian of your mind. ;)

I am sure I am going to have nightmares again about ladder operators. I would like to say all this stuff is coming flooding back... but more just the sense of dread I have that someone will ask me about it or set an exam on the topic.

All interesting points, and point to this maybe being overpowreed for a half-feat.

Frankly, I would like to see gust redone with even just the push/pull power here. Even if it took an action. Better if it's a bonus action cantrip with that. (I am perpetually annoyed at how bad gust is; it makes the 4-element set of cantrips feel lopsided and damages the fun of potentially taking all four for theme.)

Overpowered? Yeah... maybe. Slightly sad if it is as whilst it looks really powerful it also looks like a lot of fun. I actually kind of like it as it seems like it would open up a slightly broader playstyle with more options, especially for martial characters.

Segev

2020-04-16, 09:25 AM

I am sure I am going to have nightmares again about ladder operators. I would like to say all this stuff is coming flooding back... but more just the sense of dread I have that someone will ask me about it or set an exam on the topic.Heh. It's been...14 or 15 years since I studied it seriously. I don't use the physics part of my degree much in my daily work. But I do understand. ...I guess I just never dreaded being tested on it, even though it was a hard subject.

At least it's not tensors and Einsteinians.

Overpowered? Yeah... maybe. Slightly sad if it is as whilst it looks really powerful it also looks like a lot of fun. I actually kind of like it as it seems like it would open up a slightly broader playstyle with more options, especially for martial characters.

Well, maybe it would work as not-a-half-feat.

I agree, it looks like fun. Power creep is a concern, though.

I think Wild Talent maybe needs to be something other than a feat, both due to the problems 5e has with limited feat choice, and because it seems like something you should at least be able to get at level 1 without having to be a V. Human. Maybe a sidebar on trading racial features for it, with examples of fair trades? Or even just a collection of "psychic subraces" for a bunch of races.

MrStabby

2020-04-16, 09:39 AM

Heh. It's been...14 or 15 years since I studied it seriously. I don't use the physics part of my degree much in my daily work. But I do understand. ...I guess I just never dreaded being tested on it, even though it was a hard subject.

At least it's not tensors and Einsteinians.

Yeah, been about the same for me. Whilst I could kind of procedurally learn how to do some of the stuff I will admit that this is where I no longer really understood it, maybe bits here and there but that was when I realised I had probably hit my limit and should do something else.

Well, maybe it would work as not-a-half-feat.

I agree, it looks like fun. Power creep is a concern, though.

I think Wild Talent maybe needs to be something other than a feat, both due to the problems 5e has with limited feat choice, and because it seems like something you should at least be able to get at level 1 without having to be a V. Human. Maybe a sidebar on trading racial features for it, with examples of fair trades? Or even just a collection of "psychic subraces" for a bunch of races.

Half feat would probably be closer.

Wild talent being something other than a feat is something I could get behind. It is too much for a background, but as you suggest could work as an alternative subrace. In terms of trades, I would just tax two stat points of bonus, although that (for good or ill) might open up some odd combinations. So Gnome clerics that want Telekinesis just swap their int bonus for this feat at level 1, then boost wisdom through an ASI later instead. Not broken but unusual. A mountain dwarf that ditched Str to pick this up but keeps +2 Con... it certainly would open up psionics to ANY race.

The only broken thing with this approach is human. Either going from six +1s to stats to 4 of them and a feat is over the top, or going V.Human and being able to get Wild Talent and another Psionic feat at first level might give some unexpected headaches.

Willie the Duck

2020-04-16, 09:40 AM

TwrLrd

2020-04-16, 09:44 AM

I think Wild Talent maybe needs to be something other than a feat, both due to the problems 5e has with limited feat choice, and because it seems like something you should at least be able to get at level 1 without having to be a V. Human. Maybe a sidebar on trading racial features for it, with examples of fair trades? Or even just a collection of "psychic subraces" for a bunch of races.

Maybe a pledge of not multiclassing =P

To be fair maybe a background could work, you don't get proficiencies and the background feature in exchange for a feat as part of another background or a hollowed out version of the one you would have picked. Keep the half feat nature and commit the background to picking a psionic feat at their next ASI and they have psionic features at some penalty but aren't completely behind for it either. Though then if a player does it cynically it could smack of power gaming.

Segev

2020-04-16, 10:00 AM

Wild talent being something other than a feat is something I could get behind. It is too much for a background, but as you suggest could work as an alternative subrace. In terms of trades, I would just tax two stat points of bonus, although that (for good or ill) might open up some odd combinations. So Gnome clerics that want Telekinesis just swap their int bonus for this feat at level 1, then boost wisdom through an ASI later instead. Not broken but unusual. A mountain dwarf that ditched Str to pick this up but keeps +2 Con... it certainly would open up psionics to ANY race.

The only broken thing with this approach is human. Either going from six +1s to stats to 4 of them and a feat is over the top, or going V.Human and being able to get Wild Talent and another Psionic feat at first level might give some unexpected headaches.

Maybe a pledge of not multiclassing =P

To be fair maybe a background could work, you don't get proficiencies and the background feature in exchange for a feat as part of another background or a hollowed out version of the one you would have picked. Keep the half feat nature and commit the background to picking a psionic feat at their next ASI and they have psionic features at some penalty but aren't completely behind for it either. Though then if a player does it cynically it could smack of power gaming.

Background is, by itself, too...well, maybe you could make a "psychic" background, but then you're just locking people into it. If a Feature were worth a feat (it probably isn't), I could see trading out your Background Feature for "Wild Talent" (minus the stat boosting part). But that really reduces the uniqueness of the background to jsut being a couple of proficiencies and some starting gear. (Some of which is really good, and some of which is so useless that the fact that it looks like it takes up space in the pack's conceptual "how much this background can give me" space is concerning. You'd better be super creative as an Urchin with the "memento to remember your parents by." And hope that pet mouse doesn't run off and get killed the moment you take your eyes off it or forget to keep it in a cage.) I mean, it's almost perfect, thematically, for a Hermit's Discovery, except that it breaks all the rules of background features and is probably too powerful.

Trading racial stat bonus points is a maybe. I had suggested earlier that it could just inflict a -2 penalty to whatever your highest stat is for Wild Talent (again, minus the half-feat bonus to stat part).

But this brings up an interesting question in general, but which could be applicable here: how many skill proficiencies is a feat worth? I think there's a feat in the PHB that gives you 2, right?

So, maybe Wild talent (probably minus the stat increase part) can be picked up by trading any combination of two skill or tool proficiencies? ...heck, you could even, if you wanted, make it "Psi-boosted skills." The two proficiencies you give up are the two skills you can use that on, rather than using it on an Ability. This...does further diminish it, but let's be honest: there are skills that are more used than others, and picking those - especially if they're cross-ability - can be at least as valuable as the ability to use it on every roll of a single ability.

Because of 2e, monks will always have an association with clerics for me. Heh. It wasn't until I saw the iconic monk picture in 3.0's PHB that it clicked with me that a monk was "xiao-lin," rather than, "Benedictine."

I know, it's silly and stupid. But I was always baffled by why these tonsured guys in brown robes who spend all day quietly farming, praying, and illuminating holy manuscripts were calling their abbot the "grand master of flowers," had to fight him for his position, and could do 2d20 damage with their bare hands. I genuinely don't know how I missed the correct association for so long, but I remember that moment of epiphany very clearly.

Regardless, 'psionics are associated...' is a minefield, because the game doesn't really seem to know what it wants out of them, IMO. Other than a short list of commonly occurring abilities (mind reading, telepathic communication, telekinesis, teleportation, pre- and post-cognition, and some form of own-body-alteration/fixing. None of which are psionics-exclusive in D&D), there is very little common thread to them across time and edition.You've got about the right associations. It's actually not a problem that none of those are exclusive to psionics. You can build a unique flavor over something that has every part of its ven diagram space overlapped by other things, as long as it isn't in whole a subset of something else. This is especially true if you do as 3e did and take those things it's supposed to be thematic in and make them easier/earlier to get to than you can get them by other means. Or more realiable to use.

At-will TK will feel more psionic than having a glowing hand you conjure, and certainly moreso than a high-level spell of limited duration. Even if it's not at-will, if it's strong enough and cheap enough that you can use it semi-regularly, it will make the psion feel more telekinetic than the wizard does.

And one thing the dΨ mechanic is good for is allowing for a semi-free sense of use.

MrStabby

2020-04-16, 10:08 AM

But this brings up an interesting question in general, but which could be applicable here: how many skill proficiencies is a feat worth? I think there's a feat in the PHB that gives you 2, right?

So things are worth the price people are willing to pay for it. I have never seen anyone take that feat, suggesting that the price is not right and a feat (or ASI) is worth more.

JumboWheat01

2020-04-16, 10:33 AM

But this brings up an interesting question in general, but which could be applicable here: how many skill proficiencies is a feat worth? I think there's a feat in the PHB that gives you 2, right?

Skilled gives you a total of three skills or tools of your choice. It mostly has value since you can't just decide to start training in a new skill, you're stuck with what you had at the beginning unless a multiclass gives you more, which is something different. Tools you can just learn how to use in your downtime.

Justin Sane

2020-04-16, 10:41 AM

Nothing special happens--the Telekinetic Strike is not included in the attack itself and is not included in the crit. You just add the 6 and lose a die size, and do not roll again.

Telekinetic Strike. You can propel your attacks with telekinetic force. Once on each of your turns, immediately after you deal damage to a target within 30 feet of you with a weapon attack, you can roll your Psionic Talent die and also deal force damage to the target equal to the number rolled

Arguably though it forces a second Concentration save.Hmm, so as it is a second damage roll, it's not doubled on a crit? Like, say, poisons? In that case, you could apply Hexblade's Curse on the original attack and on Telekinetic Strike, correct? Because if so, it would prove they're two different sources of damage, which would mean two Concentration checks.

Not super excited about the "TS doesn't crit", but having it as a mage-buster ability... That I can get behind, even if it's obviously an unintended consequence of the rules.

At least it's not tensors and Einsteinians.*shivers*

Segev

2020-04-16, 10:45 AM

Skilled gives you a total of three skills or tools of your choice. It mostly has value since you can't just decide to start training in a new skill, you're stuck with what you had at the beginning unless a multiclass gives you more, which is something different. Tools you can just learn how to use in your downtime.

Yeah, and I would honestly prefer to see the "Train with tools" rules allow you to train a skill, as well. Everywhere else, tool and skill proficiencies are treated as approximately equal in value; it's weird you can only learn to use tools through non-class, non-feat training.

So things are worth the price people are willing to pay for it. I have never seen anyone take that feat, suggesting that the price is not right and a feat (or ASI) is worth more.

A good point. Weirdly, it's not even necessarily an equivalent exchange - people might be willing to trade a feat for fewer skill proficiencies than they'd give up to GAIN a feat, because the willingness to give them up for a feat can come from having more skill proficiencies than you want, while a feat might remain more valuable to somebody who even would like more skill proficiencies than the number of skill proficiencies the other guy would give up for the feat.

...which is worded twistingly, but I can't figure out a better wording, so I hope you can puzzle out my meaning.

I stand corrected by JumboWheat on the number of proficiencies the feat gives, too.

So, if Wild Talent didn't give you a +1 to a stat, how many skill and tool proficiencies would YOU give up for it?

MaxWilson

2020-04-16, 11:26 AM

Yeah, and I would honestly prefer to see the "Train with tools" rules allow you to train a skill, as well. Everywhere else, tool and skill proficiencies are treated as approximately equal in value; it's weird you can only learn to use tools through non-class, non-feat training.

I wouldn't say that tool and skill proficiencies are treated as equal, but I did want to note that you can learn skills and even feats through non-class-related training. It's one of the DMG options for non-monetary rewards.

Dork_Forge

2020-04-16, 11:26 AM

A cousin is a more distant relative than a parent, sibling, or a child. The closest relative that could be exactly like another is a Twin, and even a twin is not a perfect clone.

Ki and Psi are related just like that. They share similarities but they're not twins. That doesn't mean they are NOT related to each other, even if it's not mentioned anywhere.

This is asinine way of thinking. "If X is not said anywhere, it absolutely can't be X." Not everything needs to be said so they can be a thing.

There are other similar unwritten rules that so far align with each other, EVEN THOUGH it's not written anywhere.

For example Saving Throw Proficiencies for classes. All classes have one thing in common: each have one of the three saves (Dex, Con, or Wis) and one of the other three saves (Str, Int, Cha). This isn't pointed out anywhere as a rule that must be, but still it exists. Not a single class gives you extra saving throw proficiencies BY DEFAULT. Some Subclasses do, but that's an entirely different thing.

It's more like it says that it's Y rather than it says X and that's supported by no connection whatsoever in ANY of the 5e UAs.

You're connecting general design principles with fluff, they're not the same thing and do nothing to support your argument.

Ok, if you really want to stick to this edition, fair enough. Then look at the Ghitzerai as statted out, and look at the similarities with the monk. Wis to AC is "psychic defense", they make unarmed strikes, and damn, they even have a 'githzerai monk' statted out in the MM. No, they don't explicitly mention 'ki', but you have to maken an effort not to see the relation.

You're selectively looking at Githzerai, they're just one type of Gith but all Gith are Psionic. There's no relation (stats or otherwise) between Githyanki and Monks as far as I'm aware. The Githzerai live in Limbo, where they need to take extra steps in terms of disicpline etc. to mold their world and there's nothing to say their personal culture didn't just lean more towards the monk style of life. However that lack of connection with the Githyanki kind of derails your point, if it was a psionics-monk connection then you'd have it present in both Gith.

Joe the Rat

2020-04-16, 11:38 AM

In the "starters for everyone" vane, what about the Dragonmark/Revenant model - Wild Talent is effectively your subrace? Or did I miss that in discussion?

Heh. It wasn't until I saw the iconic monk picture in 3.0's PHB that it clicked with me that a monk was "xiao-lin," rather than, "Benedictine."

I know, it's silly and stupid. But I was always baffled by why these tonsured guys in brown robes who spend all day quietly farming, praying, and illuminating holy manuscripts were calling their abbot the "grand master of flowers," had to fight him for his position, and could do 2d20 damage with their bare hands. I genuinely don't know how I missed the correct association for so long, but I remember that moment of epiphany very clearly.At first exposure (1st ed) I had the same thought. And it was "Open Hand" attacks. So you weren't punching or kicking...

Pimp Slap Friar Tuck

MrStabby

2020-04-16, 11:46 AM

In the "starters for everyone" vane, what about the Dragonmark/Revenant model - Wild Talent is effectively your subrace? Or did I miss that in discussion?

Yeah, it was discussed. Although not fully explored.

Chaosmancer

2020-04-16, 11:47 AM

Githzerai connecting psionics and monks doesn't persuade me that monks are inherently connected to psi any more than Githyanki connecting fighters and mages. Or, for that matter, elves doing the same since way back in oD&D. On the 4e power source, it was one edition, and an edition that is...less than popular. I won't go so far as to say that the monk being psionic is related to 4e being unpopular; heck, maybe it being psionic saved the monk from being yet another martial adept (but I doubt it); I've heard positive reviews of 4e psionics, which at least suggests to me that it might have been the one unique subsystem in the entire edition. I don't know for sure; I was well done with 4e by the time psionics came out and had no interest in investigating 4e again for just that.

So, of your examples, you have prestige classes and a race, which I can point to similar ideas over for fighters and mages, and probably could do similarly for other class combinations if I wanted, and you have 4e giving monks a psionic power source. To which I simply say, 5e didn't. Monks in 5e are not psionic, and they're definitely not going to MAKE them psionic by default as that would be a change to the core book. They likely will add a subclass for psychic monks, especially if they do a full psionics supplement.

I'm not opposed to monks having psionics. I am, however, finding the insistence that they have this deep connection to it to be suspect. There are thematic ways to connect them, but it isn't something inherent to the class, historically or in most settings. 4e is the only time it was baked in, and 5e has already rejected that as precedent-setting.

Edit: Forgot to comment on Kalashtar. From what I know of Eberron, they're psionic. I haven't actually heard them mentioned as "monk-like" very much; their whole thing is being opposed to the Quori and their possessed Vessels. They might have a monastic tradition, but that isn't a strong association in terms of what they seem presented as, racially. The big thing is the dual-soul business and that making them psionic.

This might wander a bit, but I think the trappings of the class are what really connect it to Psionics.

The Kalashtar, since I'm in an Eberron game featuring the location, come from Adar on the continent of Sarlona. Adar is essentially psychic Tibet, a heavily mountainous region full of temples and monks fighting a guerrilla war against an enemy state that is far bigger than them. And, while I've only skimmed the official material, pretty much the majority of Kalashtar we have encountered are "monks" of one flavor or another, and there is a very Oriental feel to the whole country.

And I think that is the part that makes the connection obvious. What is one of the by-lines of Psionics? "Mind over Matter". And this is also a major aspect of just about every Eastern Martial Art I can think of. That the mind controls the body, that a strong mind can only be in a strong body.

Other than Dragon Crane kicking a monsters head off, what is the biggest thing Monks do? Meditate. And Meditation is the focusing of the mind.

Ki is the focusing of the energy of the body, but how is it focused? By training the mind as much as the body. Katas and meditation are meant to focus the mind on what the body is doing, to come into synchronization with the body and mind moving as one.

You can even look to something like the Doctor Strange movie. Strange goes to a Eastern Temple for healing, and he trains to use magic. How does he train? By training his body and mind, with the goal of healing his hands by utilizing the principle that the Mind moves the Body.

Heck, go back even further, look at The Karate Kid, Mr. Miyagi is a martial arts teacher for Daniel, but he ends up performing a "miracle healing" by focusing his energy and healing Daniel's leg. Which is exactly the type of "psychic healing from biofeedback" I've seen a lot of people ask from Psionics in 5e.

Monks are an expression of the Wuxia tales of Martial arts, and many many of those same features of martial arts translates into the exact same things we say about Psionics. Meditation, focusing of the Mind, training the body to house a more powerful mind. Many of their tropes are the same, visuals are the same, they share so much DNA I have a hard time seeing why people would see them as unrelated, instead of related.

Hmm, so as it is a second damage roll, it's not doubled on a crit? Like, say, poisons? In that case, you could apply Hexblade's Curse on the original attack and on Telekinetic Strike, correct? Because if so, it would prove they're two different sources of damage, which would mean two Concentration checks.

Not super excited about the "TS doesn't crit", but having it as a mage-buster ability... That I can get behind, even if it's obviously an unintended consequence of the rules.

My gut would say it crits. It reads similarly to adding poison to your blade to me.

KorvinStarmast

2020-04-16, 12:59 PM

For those interested, another look at the probabilty and dice behavior (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/167707/22566) as currently presented.

Willie the Duck

2020-04-16, 01:00 PM

they share so much DNA I have a hard time seeing why people would see them as unrelated, instead of related.

Reading your description, it seems obvious to me how if you already want there to be a monk-psionics connection, you can find evidence for it. However, imbedded in there, there is justification for alternate options that you're ignoring. I'm going to try to deconstruct them. Please remember that I'm not trying to call your position wrong (as I've already said, you've found support for it being a possible interpretation), but merely highlighting to opportunity for counterinterpretation.

The Kalashtar, since I'm in an Eberron game featuring the location, come from Adar on the continent of Sarlona. Adar is essentially psychic Tibet, a heavily mountainous region full of temples and monks fighting a guerrilla war against an enemy state that is far bigger than them. And, while I've only skimmed the official material, pretty much the majority of Kalashtar we have encountered are "monks" of one flavor or another, and there is a very Oriental feel to the whole country.

Where is the psychics fit in? What you've described is Fantasy Tibet. If the country is also psychic, you haven't explained how. If it is psychic, we don't know if the two are related, or they are just two facets of this nation.

And I think that is the part that makes the connection obvious. What is one of the by-lines of Psionics? "Mind over Matter". And this is also a major aspect of just about every Eastern Martial Art I can think of. That the mind controls the body, that a strong mind can only be in a strong body.
Mind over matter is also a strong by-line of sorcery, and wizardly magic, and 80s sports movies, and every addiction recovery narrative ever written. If you want it to be an Eastern Martial Art thing more than the others, well then of course it can be, but again that is assuming your conclusion in the support of said conclusion.

Other than Dragon Crane kicking a monsters head off, what is the biggest thing Monks do? Meditate. And Meditation is the focusing of the mind.

I just checked the D&D Beyond Monk page for the term, and it does show up once in reference to regaining ki points (also twice in the Way of the Open Hand archetype). 3e was kind of notorious in that monks got the concentration skill (the core book closest analog to meditation) but no explained uses for it, as it otherwise was a spellcaster-centric skill.

Overall, however, yes. Iconic 'monks' and iconic 'psychics' as their iconic depictions conceived outside of D&D both meditate. That is probably their closest tie. And there is something to be said about how contemporaneous the stories of mysticism and a fascination with Orientalism and the mysterious mysteries of the mysterious Orient (have I mentioned how mysterious ~1/5 of the world population somehow was?) in the late 19th century or so, and how the two narratives overlapped. That is the strong argument. However, 'these two things have a commonality,' while a clear relation, only means itself. It doesn't support anything outside itself. 'Swashbucklers and barbarians both like swords' is true, but only means that they have liking of swords in common (and we'll leave aside the barbarians who like axes...).

Ki is the focusing of the energy of the body, but how is it focused? By training the mind as much as the body. Katas and meditation are meant to focus the mind on what the body is doing, to come into synchronization with the body and mind moving as one.
'Ki' means 'air.' 5e describes it as 'This energy is an element of the magic that suffuses the multiverse—specifically, the element that flows through living bodies.' It isn't the energy of the body, but it is focused by the body. So, I generally agree.

You can even look to something like the Doctor Strange movie. Strange goes to a Eastern Temple for healing, and he trains to use magic. How does he train? By training his body and mind, with the goal of healing his hands by utilizing the principle that the Mind moves the Body.

Ah, therein we have a problem, and a good highlight of my point. Where are the psionics in this? Could Doctor Strange be interpreted as a psionic? Sure, if you already want to. Marvel, both in the comics and in the MCU, tend to treat Doctor Strange as a wizard who happens to have learned much of his magic from Monk/Fantasy Orient sources. In D&D terms, sorcerer might be involved, as he learns that he doesn't necessarily need his hands to do magic, however that seems to be a case of power sets not aligning with fiction-layer.

Heck, go back even further, look at The Karate Kid, Mr. Miyagi is a martial arts teacher for Daniel, but he ends up performing a "miracle healing" by focusing his energy and healing Daniel's leg. Which is exactly the type of "psychic healing from biofeedback" I've seen a lot of people ask from Psionics in 5e.

Yes, he performs an act of healing 'magic' (as magical as exists in his fictional universe), and people want that kind of ability in their D&D psionics. Nowhere in that do I see a justification that his miracle healing is particularly psionic-like. One could say that this is another example of the D&D monk being rather cleric-like, as we discussed about AD&D2.

Monks are an expression of the Wuxia tales of Martial arts, and many many of those same features of martial arts translates into the exact same things we say about Psionics. Meditation, focusing of the Mind, training the body to house a more powerful mind. Many of their tropes are the same, visuals are the same,

Wuxia is a Chinese literary genre. The Monk archetype is a broad catchall that combines many disparate cultures and thus is both greater and lesser than any one cultural genre. However, if you include everything in wuxia into the monk conception, of course it will catch most things one says about psionic, because it catches most all things about fantasy and folklore in general (being one culture's version of those things).

So, in the end, I understand why you individually would see monks and psionics as related. There's certainly support in amongst the varied and convoluted web of what tropish components actually makes up each of the two. However, to not understand why others would have a different view, I guess I just need to point out how much you are supporting your conclusion with itself. D&D psionics can easily be their own separate thing, no closer to monks than to sorcerers or druids; Dr. Strange can be a wizard or Wizard/Monk; Mr. Miyagi can be a 2e AD&D Cleric (of a philosophy, I believe) with the Monk kit; and tales of focusing of the mind and using the focused mind to train the body can be seen on Monday Night Lights. They are all reasonable interpretations.