Making a Summoner's Eidolon with Martial Maneuvers

[Ourian7491]

Figured since the prerequisites for Martial Training is BAB based, I'd try something a little fun since I found that it's possible to make an Eidolon with Martial Maneuvers. I do have a few questions though...

1) Would it's initiator level be based off of it's Hit Dice or the Summoner's character level?

2) what disciplines are ideal for a TWF build, 2H weapon build, and no-weapon build respectively?

3) am I able to mix Weapon attacks with natural attacks so long as it doesn't go above the max number of attacks as listed in the eidolon table? (Ex. 4 max attacks - 1 weapon attack + a tail slap + two leg claws/kicks)

4) once you select maneuvers with the martial Training feats, are you able to change your selected maneuvers?

5) does a natural attack count as an unarmed strike?

6) if anyone has experience with this, what are some ideal builds or suggestions for this? My Summoner is a half elf with the 1/4 evolution point favored class bonus and my Eidolon is bipedal

Any help would be greatly appreciated

[StSword]

1- Eidolon's HD, it's the one with the feat.

2- Not the guy to ask, sorry.

3 Yes. It turns all your natural attacks into secondary natural attacks at the -5 penalty though. So not likely to hit there.

4- Only with retraining rules. For something more flexible, maybe check out the sparking system from Lost Paths Voltaic.

5-No. With the Feral Combat Training feat though, you can use feats that have improved unarmed attack as a prerequisite with natural attacks.

6- Again, not the guy to ask, sorry.

[exelsisxax]

TWF: thrashing dragon
2H: scarlet throne and primal fury with a side of black seraph
Unarmed: broken blade

However, this is going to eat pretty much all your eidolon's feats while still being VERY far behind, and not really synergizing with an eidolon's capabilities.

Eidolons have lots of natural attacks, PoW is mostly standard actions. There's not really much of a reason to invest that much when you can just slap pounce on your eidolon and have an almost feature-complete natural attack build.

[Powerdork]

I'd strongly dispute "mostly standard actions". Stances are passive or give new actions that are rarely standard, boosts and counters provide strong benefits even as you full attack (swift-moves are remarkable), and strikes especially in Thrashing Dragon and Broken Blade lean in the direction of full attacks. Sure, if you're only ever full attacking, you're missing out on a large chunk of Path of War, but that's because Path of War is immense more than it's because Path of War is standard-centric.

[upho]

First, a few important clarifications/details:

2) what disciplines are ideal for a TWF build, 2H weapon build, and no-weapon build respectively?
...
My Summoner is a half elf with the 1/4 evolution point favored class bonus and my Eidolon is bipedalThis depends fully on what you're looking to achieve and the power level of your game. Very generally speaking and from a pure optimization PoV, the biped is more suitable for melee control (mainly because of great reach potential) primarily using manufactured weapons, or maybe ranged damage (mainly because it comes with a pair of arms). The quadruped is more suitable for melee damage (because of easy access to pounce). There are however plenty of exceptions to this, of course.


3) am I able to mix Weapon attacks with natural attacks so long as it doesn't go above the max number of attacks as listed in the eidolon table? (Ex. 4 max attacks - 1 weapon attack + a tail slap + two leg claws/kicks)This is correct if you're using the Unchained Summoner. But if you're using the original Summoner, the max attack limit only applies to natural attacks (regardless of whether they're primary or secondary). So in your example, you could theoretically also have say a bite or a gore plus any number of additional attacks with manufactured weapons and/or unarmed strikes. And yes, this can become outright silly, with higher level eidolons capable of "pounce-MWF"-ing with enough weapons to make a small army of mariliths green with envy... :smallamused:


Second:

6) if anyone has experience with this, what are some ideal builds or suggestions for this?I do, but in order to give you more useful help, I need a bit more info, such as:

1. What's the power level of this game? If you haven't talked to the GM about this, it's a good idea if you do this first. Eidolons can become quite the combat monsters which may easily overshadow less optimized non-caster PC classes in their supposed area of expertise, on top of the summoner themselves being the strongest 6/9 caster in the game. (But if the other non-caster PCs are builds based on PoW classes/archetypes, at least you won't have to worry nearly as much about your eidolon becoming OP for your party and game.)

2. Any special limitations or houserules of importance? If you're playing the original summoner, unless you're game is very high-power, I would recommend you use the unchained's more sane spell list instead.

3. To which level is the game expected to continue? Many combos are only of interest if you continue past 10th or so.

4. Most important: what would you like your eidolon to be able to do? At least unless your game is very high-power, the eidolon has got plenty of fun and wonky melee options otherwise not quite feasible or flat out not available for PCs. Want to play Pac-Man and get a high-score swallowing your enemies? Want to control huge areas with devastating AoOs? Tons of possibilities, and the preferable choice of discipline(s) and maneuvers will depend first and foremost on this.

I'll be happy to help you out with more detailed recommendations once you've answered these questions.

[upho]

I'd strongly dispute "mostly standard actions". Stances are passive or give new actions that are rarely standard, boosts and counters provide strong benefits even as you full attack (swift-moves are remarkable), and strikes especially in Thrashing Dragon and Broken Blade lean in the direction of full attacks. Sure, if you're only ever full attacking, you're missing out on a large chunk of Path of War, but that's because Path of War is immense more than it's because Path of War is standard-centric.This.

And most "feat initiator" builds are better off taking only a couple or no strikes anyways, because they get few maneuvers and have such a poor default recovery method, because full attacks can be made highly competitive anyways, and because especially counters can bring some quite unique possibilities.

[Ourian7491]

First, a few important clarifications/details:
This depends fully on what you're looking to achieve and the power level of your game. Very generally speaking and from a pure optimization PoV, the biped is more suitable for melee control (mainly because of great reach potential) primarily using manufactured weapons, or maybe ranged damage (mainly because it comes with a pair of arms). The quadruped is more suitable for melee damage (because of easy access to pounce). There are however plenty of exceptions to this, of course.

This is correct if you're using the Unchained Summoner. But if you're using the original Summoner, the max attack limit only applies to natural attacks (regardless of whether they're primary or secondary). So in your example, you could theoretically also have say a bite or a gore plus any number of additional attacks with manufactured weapons and/or unarmed strikes. And yes, this can become outright silly, with higher level eidolons capable of "pounce-MWF"-ing with enough weapons to make a small army of mariliths green with envy... :smallamused:


Second:
I do, but in order to give you more useful help, I need a bit more info, such as:

1. What's the power level of this game? If you haven't talked to the GM about this, it's a good idea if you do this first. Eidolons can become quite the combat monsters which may easily overshadow less optimized non-caster PC classes in their supposed area of expertise, on top of the summoner themselves being the strongest 6/9 caster in the game. (But if the other non-caster PCs are builds based on PoW classes/archetypes, at least you won't have to worry nearly as much about your eidolon becoming OP for your party and game.)

2. Any special limitations or houserules of importance? If you're playing the original summoner, unless you're game is very high-power, I would recommend you use the unchained's more sane spell list instead.

3. To which level is the game expected to continue? Many combos are only of interest if you continue past 10th or so.

4. Most important: what would you like your eidolon to be able to do? At least unless your game is very high-power, the eidolon has got plenty of fun and wonky melee options otherwise not quite feasible or flat out not available for PCs. Want to play Pac-Man and get a high-score swallowing your enemies? Want to control huge areas with devastating AoOs? Tons of possibilities, and the preferable choice of discipline(s) and maneuvers will depend first and foremost on this.

I'll be happy to help you out with more detailed recommendations once you've answered these questions.


I'll answer in order

First, the Power Level in our campaign is pretty high. I'm not big on the numbers aspect so much, but I do like to try and keep up with the rest of the party at least somewhat. We are playing a revamped variant of Rappan Athuk with almost everything allowed, including all psionics outside of technologically advanced classes and gear and some 3rd Party and all Dreamscarred Press. My goal is to make a psuedo-Flanking buddy summoner that focuses Dex, Con, and Casting stat. She will be using a Dueling Sword and learning the feats for the Dueling Sword, as well as Toughness and some feats that will help with flanking and AC. The Eidolon itself is going to be more of a brawler-esque type that specializes in punches/kicks (claws in this case) Wing Flutters and tail slaps. The maneuvers were going to be for Boosts and Counters mostly. The eventual end-goal was to make either a Brawler-style or knight-style Bahamut from FFX. The reason I asked about weapon builds too was because I want to weigh my options so any advice

Second, I am currently building with the Original Summoner in mind. So anything that the normal Summoner and eidolon can do is what I am aiming for.


1. What's the power Level of this game?
As mentioned above, it's quite high. On a scale of 1-10, 10 being high. I'd place it at around a 8.5-9/10.

2. Any special limitations or house rules of importance?
Yes. Instead of a full HP system, we do a slightly modified Vigor/Wounds system. Our Vigor is equal to our Hit dice rolls with no Con modifier. Our Wounds are twice our Con score. Toughness adds Vigor. A character will not die until all Wound points are gone. (Eidolons and Summoned creatures also follow this rule)

3. To which level is the game expected to continue?
Full game. Each player has 6 characters. Each player may have 1 character that goes to Level 30, but the rest will cap at Level 20 until either their main character currently receiving the Epic Boon dies or passes the boon onto another member of their squad. This Summoner is starting at Level 8 and is currently not in line to receive the Epic boon

4. Most important: What would you like your eidolon to do?
Well, RP wise, he always came to the aid of the summoner before she knew what her power was. Even while still in the womb, he protected the mother and summoner from a fire that was supposed to kill them. RP aside, he was always more of a protector of sorts until she got older and wanted to learn how to fight alongside him rather than stay on the backlines while he fought for her. With this in mind, I'm pretty open to ideas on what I want to do with him, but he must be similar to FFX's Bahamut in addition to the fighting styles chosen (NAtural attack focus, TWF, Greatsword, etc.). I do want to incorporate the Breath Weapon and any ideas to enhance it would be amazing (Megaflare). The Maneuvers and Stances were to add to survivability of both the Summoner and Eidolon for the most part, since they will be frontliners for the most part. Also, to keep in mind, her Favored Class Bonus is the Summoner special where she gains 1/4 Evo points per level.

[upho]

Sorry for the late reply!


First, the Power Level in our campaign is pretty high. I'm not big on the numbers aspect so much, but I do like to try and keep up with the rest of the party at least somewhat. We are playing a revamped variant of Rappan Athuk with almost everything allowed, including all psionics outside of technologically advanced classes and gear and some 3rd Party and all Dreamscarred Press.
...

As mentioned above, it's quite high. On a scale of 1-10, 10 being high. I'd place it at around a 8.5-9/10.Whoa, that's very high. At least if we're assuming that 1 on this scale is the low power level of Paizo APs played as written, and 10 is about the maximum possible for PCs in a game with DSP material (without using any commonly banned options like Leadership or Sacred Geometry). But thankfully I suspect your game's power level is closer to that of the PF version of Rappan Athuk as written, meaning considerably higher than that of Paizo APs but also considerably lower than 10 according to this definition. (For example, a Summoner (Master Summoner) as highly optimized as to be considered 10 on this scale could most likely solo the entire adventure from as early as 5th.)

So maybe about 5.5-6 on this scale? If so, much of your intended build is possible.


My goal is to make a psuedo-Flanking buddy summoner that focuses Dex, Con, and Casting stat. She will be using a Dueling Sword and learning the feats for the Dueling Sword, as well as Toughness and some feats that will help with flanking and AC. The Eidolon itself is going to be more of a brawler-esque type that specializes in punches/kicks (claws in this case) Wing Flutters and tail slaps. The maneuvers were going to be for Boosts and Counters mostly. The eventual end-goal was to make either a Brawler-style or knight-style Bahamut from FFX. The reason I asked about weapon builds too was because I want to weigh my options so any advice
...

RP aside, he was always more of a protector of sorts until she got older and wanted to learn how to fight alongside him rather than stay on the backlines while he fought for her. With this in mind, I'm pretty open to ideas on what I want to do with him, but he must be similar to FFX's Bahamut in addition to the fighting styles chosen (NAtural attack focus, TWF, Greatsword, etc.). I do want to incorporate the Breath Weapon and any ideas to enhance it would be amazing (Megaflare). The Maneuvers and Stances were to add to survivability of both the Summoner and Eidolon for the most part, since they will be frontliners for the most part.AFAIK, there's unfortunately no way to make the breath weapon and the dueling sword stuff actually viable for this power level, but the rest should be possible, even though this kind of "tag team"-build is difficult to optimize.

Hmm... I'd probably go for something like this (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lh-5Wf6STLvbaFAwhmzHmIUojKaSpL9fXwQWsFpDtUM/edit?usp=sharing).

The concept is basically to use Paired Opportunists (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/paired-opportunists-combat-teamwork/) (and a wand of shared training (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shared-training/)) with Seize the Opportunity (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/feats/seize-the-opportunity-combat/) and combat maneuver stuff to allow the summoner and her eidolon to trade tons of AoOs to blind, daze and kill enemies, thereby overcoming much of the issues of not having full bab and the eidolon's max attack limit. This is combined with Ourianne having the Mixed Blood (Feyblood) (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Mixed_Blood_(trait)) trait and Altered Life, Unnatural Resilience and Divine Fighting Technique (Way of the Shooting Star) feats to avoid the extreme MADness which would otherwise make a melee summoner impossible at this power level (she uses Cha for casting, wounds, Fort and melee and ranged attack and damage, and can consequently safely dump both Str and Con).

This kind of build is of course highly item dependent, being very feat starved, but also very effective in melee despite not dealing much damage per attack. With size increases and reach boosts, as long as they stay adjacent they'll also be great melee control combatants able to defend their party in a large area. Importantly, it should also make for a good representation of FFX Bahamut despite not having a powerful breath weapon. The Radiant Dawn maneuvers should also be very helpful.

Some Notable Vital/Great Items
Ourianne: dueling (PSFG) (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dueling%20(PSFG) ) transformative (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/transformative/) spine flail (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/e-g/flail-spine/) with effortless lace (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/effortless-lace/) (transformed into a starknife with reach), COWPIS (cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone) in wayfinder, +1 training gauntlets, wands/dorjes of metamorphosis ML 7+, shared training, strong jaw, greater magic weapon, elongate extremities (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Elongate_Extremities) ML 5+.

Bahamudolon: dueling (PSFG) amulet of mighty fists, giant fist gauntlets (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gauntlets-giant-fist/), permanent greater magic fang CL 20 x4, COWPIS and cracked deep reed sphere in headband of twisted intellect, +1 training gauntlets, eidolon anchoring harness.


I hope this gives you at least some ideas. Please ask if anything seems weird or is difficult to understand; there are a lot of less obvious details in the build progression table, and the "co-opportunists" melee mechanics involving Dirty Trick Master, Crushing Wave Fist and the giant fist gauntlets (or Quick Reposition) are quite complex (and far stronger than they may first appear).


Instead of a full HP system, we do a slightly modified Vigor/Wounds system. Our Vigor is equal to our Hit dice rolls with no Con modifier. Our Wounds are twice our Con score. Toughness adds Vigor. A character will not die until all Wound points are gone. (Eidolons and Summoned creatures also follow this rule)Note that this means PCs can typically take far less damage before dying in higher levels. This is especially true for PCs with a higher Con, such as your summoner with Altered Life (for example, a barbarian 20 will typically be able to take less than half the damage that he would be able to take in a game using the standard rules). It might be worth asking your GM if they're aware of this and whether it's intentional, especially when considering Rappan Athuk is probably the most deadly adventure ever published for PF.